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Super Mario Maker: Unlocking everything from the start was a bad choice

Fuck that. I picked up the game last night and was really annoyed by the unlock process, even after the patch. The game needs better tutorials to teach players how to make a quality level, like the tutorials in LBP. Text menus with Mary O aren't going to cut it, and that's part of the reason why the user levels are in the state they are now.

That said, I'm glad I got the unlock crap out of the way because now I'm working on my Ghost House :)

The game already basically requires an internet connection. It's not really worth it without being able to share levels.
You can't view the manual without a connection either.
 
There will be very few Maeio-type masterpiece levels. They are just not fun to make as a creator unles you're really serious about it. And most aren't.
 

zoukka

Member
Gamers can never understand why it's actually very good for developers to limit their choices. You need to look at games from the eyes of a developer to understand this concept.
 

darthvargi

Member
I've seen some stinkers in 100 Mario Challenge. The worst offenders are the ones which require a powerup that flies by at the start.

That said, I don't think it's a big deal right now. People are experimenting and having fun. The 10 upload limit will eventually be showcases for good work. I am shocked though how some people need a course on level design. We've been playing this platformer for 30 years, it should be natural by now.
 

fernoca

Member
I've seen some stinkers in 100 Mario Challenge. The worst offenders are the ones which require a powerup that flies by at the start.

That said, I don't think it's a big deal right now. People are experimenting and having fun. The 10 upload limit will eventually be showcases for good work. I am shocked though how some people need a course on level design. We've been playing this platformer for 30 years, it should be natural by now.
Yep. And in the end, the game has been out officially for 3-4 days. Even with all the lame ones, there has been some really great ones too.
 

Taker666

Member
I was champing at the bit for more options even with the quicker unlock... so I'm very glad they didn't stick to the daily unlock in the end (largely because I wanted to see what I could do to create different visuals using all the pieces).

The problem at the moment is people just uploading anything without even the most basic thought..or people just throwing a crazy amount of enemies on screen. That would be the same regardless of the unlock system.

After that initial rush of levels I'd imagine most people will be far more thoughtful in the future.
 

trixx

Member
Played the game at a friends and yeah, basic levels would've been nice to start off with. Random chaos is disappointing but at least future buyers jump in with the same experience =/

Levels with basic tools probably would've been a hell of a lot more creative as well lol

Gotta look at how Nintendo makes their challenge levels in New super Mario Bros U/Luigi U for inspiration
 

Seik

Banned
I do not agree.

A game that is supposed to be a creative tool should be offering all the options available right off the bat.

People that intend to fuck up things will fuck up things anyway, just later.
 

correojon

Member
But that has absolutely nothing to do with a 9 day waiting period? The teaching would still be the same, but more drawn out.
Well, the 9-day unlock could´ve been part of that teaching process. But you´re right, I digressed a bit there.

Gamers can never understand why it's actually very good for developers to limit their choices. You need to look at games from the eyes of a developer to understand this concept.
This! So much this!

Nope. The problem is people, not the game.
If there´s a problem, known beforehand, and the game doesn´t do anything to mitigate it then it can be blamed in part. Ultimately the fault of uploading a shitty level is fault of the creator and no one else´s, but I´m sure no one is uploading crappy levels without thinking they´re the best thing ever. It´s just that they don´t know how to do better and that´s the game´s responsiblity. I know a 9 day lock wouldn´t have turned us all into the next Myamoto, but it could have helped a little to some and a lot to others.
 
I agree about the random chaos. Not necessarily even looking at the worst examples, some levels are almost normal levels but throw in too many features and enemy types to feel cohesive.

For my latest level City of Ruin (D8A6-0000-003A-6A98), I put in a mix of enemies. There are goombas, spinies, dry bones, rocky wrenches, boo buddies, and fire piranha plants. In retrospect I think even that much variety was too much. Originally I had red koopa troopas as well but I realized it was just one too many enemy types, and dry bones work just as well for not walking off platforms. They also fit the aesthetic better.

ASplnR3.jpg
 
Well, the 9-day unlock could´ve been part of that teaching process. But you´re right, I digressed a bit there.
So the problem is the tutorial process, I agree there. But you'd have to go through basically school classes about level design, and a 5-10 minute tutorial isn't enough to encapsulate the scope of that process. If they did a proper tutorial there would be a lot of sitting and watching videos with some but not much interaction that many people would skip anyway. There would have to be a very delicate hand holding process for people, to keep their interest and to let them learn something.

What would be good, is level walkthroughs, like devs showing you how to recreate 1-1 and why the enemy placement is the way it is, how spatial awareness plays into the level design of Mario and how each block is carefully chosen. Again, people may ignore it but that would be good. Doesn't really impact the 9 day period though.
 

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
The arbitrary lock would change absolutely nothing in this regard. The people making random chaos levels just suck at making levels and likely won't learn what really makes something fun, just keep spewing out randomness. You can still create a massive shitshow with the basic set, too.

Plus some other elements don't even really add anything but more options. Sub options are VERY late to get yet random chaos would do nothing with this, so that just stifles actual options/creativity. Not having the mario trail from the start is just silly as hell, too.

The crux of the issue here is the majority of people don't have a taste for what makes a level good. The amount of 100% blind jumps where you have a specific landing area and nothing like coins to guide the player, the instant a level starts having an enemy behind you, dumb traps that are funny the first time but not when every level does it eveywhere, etc. This stuff would still be happening. At best you would maybe have a bigger flood of garbage easy/normal levels that have nothing in them, I guess.

They just need a better sorting and filtering option so you can play a bunch of fan favorites that aren't just steamrolling the top starred anyway like the autoplaying levels or the amiibo ones(like that splatoon level at the top, which is unremarkable in every way). These options matter far more than anything the creators can do.
 
If there´s a problem, known beforehand, and the game doesn´t do anything to mitigate it then it can be blamed in part. Ultimately the fault of uploading a shitty level is fault of the creator and no one else´s, but I´m sure no one is uploading crappy levels without thinking they´re the best thing ever. It´s just that they don´t know how to do better and that´s the game´s responsiblity.

No, it's theirs, for being terrible.
 
I agree entirely. I've been unlocking day by day on purpose and having a much better time. Limited tools really make you consider what each is for and what each can do. Makes you more active in the level creation process. I'm enjoying getting new stuff each day immensely too, it's exciting.
 

Fbh

Member
Limiting the options in a game about users creating content doesn't sound like a good idea


Nothing would have changed. It would just have taken a little longer. This is, honestly, the way most games with tools for user created content are. You will allways get a very high number of shitty levels compared to the great ones.

As long as Nintendo has a system in place for you to find the good levels (a highlight section, one to see the best rated levels, one with "popular levels, etc) there shouldn't be an issue
 
It was something that pretty obviously a good idea all along. The unlocks should have been tied to something other than time though, stars or something.

Oh my god, this would be the worst. It's impossible to get stars. Not because the levels I make are bad, but because NOBODY PLAYS THEM. And of those who do, only about 20% give a star.
 

Axass

Member
You are literally complaining about too much freedom in Mario Maker.

EBC89mW.gif

I think he's complaining about other people's freedom more than anything. Which is a kinda legit complain if (I don't have the game yet) there's a constant flood of shitty levels.
 
I've been doing my best to make interesting levels before I've unlocked everything. They're not the best but I'm not interested in super ultra hard stages, just enjoyable ones. I've also enjoyed not having all the things I'd like, forces me to think differently about how I plan on making it interesting.
 

trixx

Member
I agree entirely. I've been unlocking day by day on purpose and having a much better time. Limited tools really make you consider what each is for and what each can do. Makes you more active in the level creation process. I'm enjoying getting new stuff each day immensely too, it's exciting.
Probably the way I'm going to go when I get my copy.

Also someone mentioned the blind jumps. The amount of blind and unsafe jumps/random encounters I encountered in like 2 hours of gameplay,looool. I'm pretty sure GAF OT has great levels so definitely going to be on the look out for those
 

Yokai

Member
I actually don't get this. I still haven't unlocked everything. I'm taking my time making levels and have been only unlocking a little content per day.

Are some people just exposed to all the content right away? Are people just fast forwarding their clocks?
 
I actually don't get this. I still haven't unlocked everything. I'm taking my time making levels and have been only unlocking a little content per day.

Are some people just exposed to all the content right away? Are people just fast forwarding their clocks?

1. Use every new tool the previous day gave you
2. Use the builder for 5 minutes
3. Place a ton of blocks

You can unlock everything in about an hour.


Also, to reply to the OP, the vast majority of awful stages I've played were on NSMBU overworld using day 1 or 2 assets, so limiting the toolset doesn't do anything. As soon as they get Lakitu, it all goes to hell.
 

LiK

Member
Good level design is knowing what to use. Holding back the pieces doesn't help at all. People who make shit levels will continue to make shit levels if they don't have self-control.
 
We´ve spent some time with Super Mario Maker and there´s quite the number of user levels out there already. From what I´ve seen they usually fall in these categories:

  • Automated levels: These use lots of different elements creatively.
  • Classic levels: These don´t use many different elements, but are used in interesting ways.
  • Gimmick levels: These are usually short levels consisting of one challenge that relies on an original idea and just focus on that, so they use few elements as well.
  • Random chaos: These are levels which feature one instance of every element in unorganized, not creative ways, or a thousand instances of the most complex elements carefully placed around the stage in a barf pattern.

I don't see that at all. There are a handful of "automated" or rube-goldberg-esque levels, but most of the popular ones are just "I made a level that's stupidly hard." Anything random you try will be of questionable quality, but that's to be expected.
 

MrBadger

Member
It's easier to make a decent level if you just take one concept and see how many things you can do with it by changing it slightly and mixing it up. That's how regular Mario levels are designed, anyway.

Here's an idea - how about an alternate mode where the game just lets you use a few specific items? Like, a castle mode where you can only use Dry Bones, Thwomps, Bowser and standard enemies, or an airship mode where cannons, bill blasters and rocky wrenches (as well as the standard enemies) are available to you? It could be good for people who have no self control.

Also I am so sick of those "don't press anything" levels.

Oh my god, this would be the worst. It's impossible to get stars. Not because the levels I make are bad, but because NOBODY PLAYS THEM. And of those who do, only about 20% give a star.

Make better levels.
Yeah I completely agree. Having unlocks tied to stars would be awful and only the people who make hilarious meme levels would even be allowed to use everything
 

E-phonk

Banned
I do think the codes you can input through the book are nice introductions in level design and variety.

They should've been featured more prominently in the game, and could have been used as a way to make you unlock stuff faster (watch 5 fun tutorial video's to unlock the next item batch faster)

PS: I'm also wondering if there are "secret" codes that aren't in the book but will be discovered later.
 
But doesn't it still take a while for everything to become available? At least that how it is for me. I'm getting maybe two new batches of tools per day, and I've definitely spent a couple hours with the game so far.

Personally, I'd really like for everything to become even faster, the level I'm working on right now would be so much better with sublevel pipes but I have no idea when those will unlock.
 

darthvargi

Member
Oh my god, this would be the worst. It's impossible to get stars. Not because the levels I make are bad, but because NOBODY PLAYS THEM. And of those who do, only about 20% give a star.
Definitely this. I have made some very playable levels but they only have like a 25 percent completion rate. I've noticed a lot of people in the hundred Mario challenge skip levels until they find a run right and you're at the flag level.

Feedback is nonexistent.
 

Raonak

Banned
9 day lock would have done little to solve the issue.
You would still have an overload of crap. It's the same way with every creation tool, tons of crab, and a few good levels.

It's all a matter of the game having good sorting/filtering. That's the only way to "solve" the issue.
 
i've seen people complain a lot about the unlocking system in mario maker, then nintendo changes, and now people think that it would avoid the trash levels. trash levels will always exist, because ideas in general are trash, and the kaizo style levels are just because it's popular to see your friend curse at the screen because of this "evil" level that someone made. The magic of mario maker is to share your levels and try to improve your abilities, and play other people levels, this process involves, at least in the beginning, to deal with trash levels.
 
Lakitu spam is easily the worst part of Mario Maker.

I went on a level where some sadist made Lakitu throw Bloopers. Like, the most annoying enemies in the entire game, constantly being thrown at me at weird angles.

Also a lot of people spamming Lakitu don't realize Lakitu's cloud can easily break their "super hard" stage by just flying over everything.
 

Sami+

Member
No, that's stupid. Complaining about more freedom is stupid.

Amateur creators will create trash content regardless of whether or not the entire toolset is available to them.
 
I don't see that at all. There are a handful of "automated" or rube-goldberg-esque levels, but most of the popular ones are just "I made a level that's stupidly hard." Anything random you try will be of questionable quality, but that's to be expected.

My great fear is that "stupidly hard" for a lot of people is going to be any level that takes more than a couple tries. I want challenging levels. Not invisible blocks knocking you into a pit challenging, but levels with some length and numerous creative things to overcome.

I'm betting a lot of those levels are just going to be skipped by people who just want the dumb, easy content. Hence why stuff like the automatic levels get boosted to the top.
 

erawsd

Member
Frankly, there is absolutely nothing Nintendo could have done to avoid there being a big mountain of shit crafted for SMM. That isn't a consequence of arbitrary tool locks, that is a consequence of most people have no creative vision or intention to design a proper level, they just want to dick around with the tools.
 
The game needs a dislike button for the expert route. I've encountered too many unfair levels that are aimed to mislead you into getting stuck. That or just toss everything at the player at the same time.
 

Camwi

Member
90% of everything is crap. Everything. It would always have happened, you'd just be delaying the good levels.

Seriously. You're insane if you think that this wasn't always going to be the case.

It's time to stop defending every shitty decision that Nintendo makes.
 
Definitely this. I have made some very playable levels but they only have like a 25 percent completion rate. I've noticed a lot of people in the hundred Mario challenge skip levels until they find a run right and you're at the flag level.

Feedback is nonexistent.
I have similar on a short level I made (not great design as it is one of those get mushroom, get hit run to next mushroom type levels and is very short). As for 100 Mario challenge. There is no real penalty for skipping so if you're having a bad time, skip it is what I tend to do. Am I looking for challenging levels, possibly. But I find pixel perfect platforming not what I'm looking for (the fact that Nintendo Minute made such a stage makes me smh).

As for feedback. Maybe not having it starring when you comment after completing a stage would stop people scaring players from leaving negative comments in case the same thing happens to any other comments.

Perhaps if the skip is used maybe then it should invite you to leave feedback so players know why their levels are being skipped.

Also a Japanese player has no use for English feedback (and vice versa) so it is a shame there is no stock phrases that can used or even a simple conversation maker like the PSO word select (which for all I know is patented because all good ideas in video games seem to be).
 
The game needs a dislike button for the expert route. I've encountered too many unfair levels that are aimed to mislead you into getting stuck. That or just toss everything at the player at the same time.

I'm not so sure about the last part, but I do hate levels that are challenging, but have BS death paths that you can't get anywhere from. There's nothing creative about that. They're just cruel. Downvoting is a slippery slope since we don't know the reason though. Even if you tied a comment to it, that doesn't mean much.
 

E-phonk

Banned
Another easy solution might be to have more feedback


when skipping
Why do you want to skip this level?
1 This level has unfair gameplay mechanics
2 This level is too hard for me
3 This level is boring
4 This level is offensive
5. It's a good level, but I just don't feel like playing it right now

If a level gets a lot of 2's as feedback, bring it to expert mode, levels with 1 & 3 get shown less, levels with 4 get moderated and levels with 5 get left alone.

On finishing
1. This level was too easy
2. This level was challenging
3. This level was too hard!
3. This level was boring
4. Perfect level - I enjoyed it! (stars level)
 

bumpkin

Member
[*]Random chaos: These are levels which feature one instance of every element in unorganized, not creative ways, or a thousand instances of the most complex elements carefully placed around the stage in a barf pattern.
These were a majority of what I encountered when I tried "expert" 100 Mario Challenge. Obviously the stages are possible because you have to clear a level before you can upload it, but I don't care; some of the random shit people put together simply isn't fun. Mario is supposed to be challenging but fun.

Another easy solution might be to have more feedback


when skipping
Why do you want to skip this level?
1 This level has unfair gameplay mechanics
2 This level is too hard for me
3 This level is boring
4 This level is offensive
5. It's a good level, but I just don't feel like playing it right now

If a level gets a lot of 2's as feedback, bring it to expert mode, levels with 1 & 3 get shown less, levels with 4 get moderated and levels with 5 get left alone.

On finishing
1. This level was too easy
2. This level was challenging
3. This level was too hard!
3. This level was boring
4. Perfect level - I enjoyed it! (stars level)
This is an excellent idea.
 
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