-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Stop Making Me be The Chosen Jesus with a Huge Dick in RPGs (Spoilers for Everything)
- Thread starter Disgraced
- Start date
Empty Space
Member
I haven't read the books, but isn't Geralt's thing been is that he takes sides all the time even though he is a witcher? He may claim that he's not interested in getting involved, but he invariably always does. The guy has been romantically involved with multiple sorceress even in the books. There's no way you aren't going to get involved in politics living the life he does. That's what I've gathered at least from looking at a wiki and playing the games.
texhnolyze
Banned
And it's more ridiculous in mmorpgs.
Oh, welcome the chosen one.
Oh, welcome the chosen one.
MichaelFassbender
Member
The Witcher is great in large part due to the fact that however powerful Geralt is, he can't disrupt the tides of war and statesmanship. Even the assassination of kings will only put another head on the throne, and to truly be that high up in the system would be the essence of power in his world.
And witchers really aren't about that.
And witchers really aren't about that.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Why does everyone have a problem with this?
You are the main character in a fantasy.
You are the main character in a fantasy.
Mind you, that's only with one ending.
If you accept Gehrman's offer, you get the exact same fate the other hunters had before you, and you even get a little tombstone like theirs. If you fight Gehrman but don't eat the cords, you end up killing him... Only for fate to give you the finger for trying to rebel by making you take Gehrman's place.
Because it's the norm? Even being the savior gets tiring after you've done it 50 times.
NEOPARADIGM
Banned
Some poor schlub everyperson wouldn't make it to the end of the game. Theoretically any RPG story's "true" unfolding is a run through x-gazillion enemies without a death. Such a tale necessitates a "huge dick Jesus" wouldn't you say? Unless you're going for the Forrest Gump everything-works-out-by-way-of-absurd-coincidence thing, I can't think of any other way it would make any sense short of multiple main characters.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Even if he fits those alignments he has no depth and nothing but his actions to make him interesting.
His need for companionship and loyalty also goes against that.
He does get involved in politics due to his surroundings but he doesn't do it willingly and he tries his damndest not to. He doesn't pick sides though, none of the Witchers have, they seclude themselves in Kaer Morhen.
I don't mind The Hero's Journey, but it doesn't always need to end with killing gods/Cthulhu/the most powerful being in the multiverse. If Beowulf, Hercules, Arthur, Jason and countless other actual mythological heroes can settle for winning some campaigns and losing others (inevitably ending tragically) over a lifetime of struggle with dangerous enemies and quests in a relatively small area (from our perspective), I don't see why the player needs their ego stroking as Chainmail/Space Jesus who can solve the conflicts of worlds in a matter of weeks. It's a matter of scope, with writers not knowing when to reign it in and battle designers needing an ever-increasing chart of tougher things to kill, which ends in the party standing on a convenient platform somewhere, killing near-omnipotent, quasi-corporeal, reality-altering aliens via the medium of hitting them with broadswords.
Actually, it's not even the inevitable victory that really bothers me, it's the simpering way other NPCs defer to you utterly about decisions and centuries-long-conflicts you only found out about two minutes ago and have no stake in. Bioware is terrible for this, often having two factions both happy to abide (and possibly lose a fight that means everything to them) by the opinion of the player who effectively turns up out of nowhere and flips a coin. Often pointing out some insanely obvious hypocrisy that the rooms full of bloodthirsty extremists have missed in the process.
I did smile in Dragon Age 2 when the head Templar was still giving me quests to exterminate mages after I'd already killed a couple of hundred of her knights and assassins. All I could think was 'wow, equipping legions of heavy-armoured, highly trained magic users is cheap in Kirkwall'.
Actually, it's not even the inevitable victory that really bothers me, it's the simpering way other NPCs defer to you utterly about decisions and centuries-long-conflicts you only found out about two minutes ago and have no stake in. Bioware is terrible for this, often having two factions both happy to abide (and possibly lose a fight that means everything to them) by the opinion of the player who effectively turns up out of nowhere and flips a coin. Often pointing out some insanely obvious hypocrisy that the rooms full of bloodthirsty extremists have missed in the process.
I did smile in Dragon Age 2 when the head Templar was still giving me quests to exterminate mages after I'd already killed a couple of hundred of her knights and assassins. All I could think was 'wow, equipping legions of heavy-armoured, highly trained magic users is cheap in Kirkwall'.
True. Geralt might always try to get neutral, but in truth, he has to choose between the greater or the lesser evils whether he likes it or not.
But matter of the fact, game Geralt is different from book Geralt as you can shape his actions to a certain degree
Sure, but not every fantasy is about being the world's most powerful warrior, ambassador, mage, adventurer, trader, explorer and thief who rarely loses a minor encounter, all at the same time, and who only needs a few weeks to master all of the above. Some of the best ones take place in a relatively small area, and don't feel the need to wrap up the whole universe's problems.
'Destiny' in literary fantasy is something to be scared of, 'destiny' in rpgs is some ancient force deciding you are just going to be better than everyone else at everything at the age of 16. Games don't have to define being their Hero as solving the whole world's problems, but they often do. Some of my favourites are where the campaign is on a much smaller scale, and where adventurers and major, terrifying threats for them to oppose are relatively common. Often the D&D games are good at this, probably because the tabletop games make it clear that your party doesn't need to defeat every hostile power worldwide to be heroes and for the game to be fun.
I don't think so. Why not have a protagonist who starts out at the bottom of the ladder and works his way up with hard work, skill, and dedication instead of some ancient preconceived chosen hero prophecy that basically singles you out as the one? Let me become "huge dick Jesus" through my own means, not hand it to me on a silver platter because some old witch with a future-seeing crystal ball says so.
RedAssedApe
Banned
rather be the hero than those garbage unlikeable characters in gta v though 
banefirelord
Banned
Though perhaps not as emphatically as OP, I tend to agree. I quite liked how Dragon Age II handled it, especially in comparison to Origins and Inquisition. Despite overtly having a "Chosen One" it did a good job of being more nuanced about it and subverting some of the aspects. The small scale of the world and the ability to fuck things up really badly undercut the Chosen One aspects wonderfully. Too bad the rest of the game was so eh.
I don't want an everyperson who's a blank slate. White male, brown hair, blues eyes, average build, couple years of college isn't what I want. I want to be a unique, real person, with believable flaws, but competent enough to fight some monsters with a comparably competent party. Why can't that kind of character make it to the end of the game? Why the need for such high-level threats? Down-to-earth stories can be gripping.
themagicalkitsune
Member
This scenario is more bearable than the one where you are an incompetent kid in the beginning and everyone is patronizing and treating you like a scrub. Also your sword is a stick.
Eventually you do become a slaying ultra master that defeats god himself and the universe implodes, but that's beside the point.
Eventually you do become a slaying ultra master that defeats god himself and the universe implodes, but that's beside the point.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Star Ocean II kind of subverts this.
You are a galactic federation ensign that accidently gets transported to a primitive planet. The locals see your alien clothes and use of a regularly distributed federation phaser as a "Sword of Light" and think you to be a legendary hero told of in prophecy.
Also you get constantly shown up by Dias.
You are a galactic federation ensign that accidently gets transported to a primitive planet. The locals see your alien clothes and use of a regularly distributed federation phaser as a "Sword of Light" and think you to be a legendary hero told of in prophecy.
Also you get constantly shown up by Dias.
In this regard DA2 was a bunch of great ideas poorly executed.
You were a guy, a very capable guy, but still just a guy, trying to take care of his family and ultimately got swept up in a bunch of shit. You didn't solve the world changing event, you were a party to it and fought off the first wave of fallout from it and then got the fuck out of there. Because you were just a guy who happened to be very skilled, not some god.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I generally find them fascinating in film. Forcing me to play as one in a game ostensibly about choice rubbed me the wrong way.
To be honest, I felt the same way about the ending to The Last of Us.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Honestly, I don't think a lot of people have a problem with it.. and I don't think the "chosen one" trope is as prevalent as the OP implies.
..but it's fantasy.. you kill thousands of enemies, and you defeat some kind of boss at the end. In the end, they are games.
Also, I kind of doubt the OP's RPG credentials if he hasn't played Icewind Dale.
SanguineShark
Member
It sometimes comes with the territory.
I never felt like a chosen one or a center of attention in Bloodborne.
you are a hunter of many many random hunters and no one in Yharnam even knows let alone being a center of attention.
most endings has nothing to do with saving the world in fact the game asks you to
.
you are a hunter of many many random hunters and no one in Yharnam even knows let alone being a center of attention.
most endings has nothing to do with saving the world in fact the game asks you to
let Gehrman kills you and turn your back on the nightmare and not giving a fuck about it
I disagree.
That's very fair. And that's the thing that's almost impossible about role-playing and story-telling in video games, right? It's almost impossible to have a blank slate. For the options given with him and the other GTA characters, I feel I'm able to play them as I want them to be and feel comfortable as, but any way you look at it Trevor (and the other protagonists) are despicable people and I understand how you would uncomfortable actually controlling someone like that. If you were to play a tabletop RPG, evil isn't for you lol.
Lots of games out there, dude. It's a big world and I'm young. I try my best. /:
One of the best parts of Soul Nomad's Demon Path.
"You're the chosen one! You've got to save us all! Will you do it?"
"Yeah...I've got the power of an all-powerful demon and you kinda forced this shit on me...Know what I think?"
MC decides he/she wants none of that "save the world" mess and decides to conquer it instead.
"You're the chosen one! You've got to save us all! Will you do it?"
"Yeah...I've got the power of an all-powerful demon and you kinda forced this shit on me...Know what I think?"
MC decides he/she wants none of that "save the world" mess and decides to conquer it instead.
Haunted
Member
This doesn't only apply to RPGs, but to a variety of stories. Being treated as The One, the centre of the universe, the catalyst for every story development is a really bad storytelling trope.
One example I can think of was LA Noire, which was particularly bad about this. It had random fucking pedestrians all over LA constantly talking about YOU, even if you were just supposed to be one detective in the police force. "Isn't this the cop who did X and Y?" Constantly. It was absolutely laughable Such a stupid thing and so immersion breaking, nullifying the hundreds and thousands of hours they spent building up this believable and realistic recreation of 50s LA.
One example I can think of was LA Noire, which was particularly bad about this. It had random fucking pedestrians all over LA constantly talking about YOU, even if you were just supposed to be one detective in the police force. "Isn't this the cop who did X and Y?" Constantly. It was absolutely laughable Such a stupid thing and so immersion breaking, nullifying the hundreds and thousands of hours they spent building up this believable and realistic recreation of 50s LA.
I think Baldurs Gate I and II (not throne of bhaal so much), are actually good ways to do it. You are basically a nobody. Yes, you find out you are a child of the god of murder, but there were hundreds/thousands of others in a universe with a vast pantheon of divine beings. The struggle in II is basically a personal one with Irenicus, which is why I like BG II over most later RPGs.
I am tired of the primary conflict in a plot being the most important thing in the world/universe (Mass Effect I think suffered because of the scale of the conflict).
I think the problem is more in the conflict the character faces more than the power/importance of the character him/herself. You can have a character who is the child of a god have a great personal struggle, whereas you can have a boring story about the pauper who has to rise up and save the world single-handedly.
I am tired of the primary conflict in a plot being the most important thing in the world/universe (Mass Effect I think suffered because of the scale of the conflict).
I think the problem is more in the conflict the character faces more than the power/importance of the character him/herself. You can have a character who is the child of a god have a great personal struggle, whereas you can have a boring story about the pauper who has to rise up and save the world single-handedly.
I agree with your point. I just don't agree with how you presented it, like a bitter 14 year old.
I just want an rpg where you're an average Joe or perhaps the consequences of my hero don't affect the entire world. If my party loses, the world doesn't fall apart, maybe it doesn't even register on the galactic radar.
Perhaps the story could be a simple revenge story of the main character destroying everything in his path to get revenge, and if he fails, the world keeps spinning. The enemy isn't some god or hitler, maybe he was come convict who murdered your wife or something. Not every rpg had to be the main character Saving the world.
I just want an rpg where you're an average Joe or perhaps the consequences of my hero don't affect the entire world. If my party loses, the world doesn't fall apart, maybe it doesn't even register on the galactic radar.
Perhaps the story could be a simple revenge story of the main character destroying everything in his path to get revenge, and if he fails, the world keeps spinning. The enemy isn't some god or hitler, maybe he was come convict who murdered your wife or something. Not every rpg had to be the main character Saving the world.
I'm sorry, I just have contention with calling GTA a RPG. Having some level up elements does not make it an RPG! And it would make a piss poor RPG (good thing that's not why I play it). This is as bad as the peopel who call Bioshock an RPG just cause there is a little customization. Oh, and no, you don't even roleplay your character in GTA, you play the story. You have no impact on what they do... you just are told what they do. You once get a choice on how they decide things at the very end. Even Bioshock gave you more control over roleplaying your character (three whole choices!).
Other than that, I don't mind being the all powerful character. On the other hand, Fallout is really fun when you aren't levelled up yet and still have to be very careful what you do. Hardcore mode was great but even it got pointless after you were around a while.
Other than that, I don't mind being the all powerful character. On the other hand, Fallout is really fun when you aren't levelled up yet and still have to be very careful what you do. Hardcore mode was great but even it got pointless after you were around a while.
OP is on the money. Stories in RPGs suck and messianic high-stakes plotlines are one of the reasons. I'd like to see the RPG equivalent of something like Jones in the Fast Lane: get a job, pay your rent etc all while trying improve your lot in life. Games with job and crafting systems promise experiences like this but those experiences are always shallow.
You're just as bad as the modern day rpg writer. The very thing you are insulting! You're a hypocrite!
It's true.You're just as bad as the modern day rpg writer. The very thing you are insulting! You're a hypocrite!
¯\_(ツ_/¯
_/¯Well, that's not entirely why I think it's an RPG. I think it's an RPG at least in some sense because it allows and seems to me intends you to (role-)play the character as you will; you're given a character sheet to play how you like.
You don't roleplay them though. You play their story. YOu have no choice in what they do, you are pretty much told.. hell, it tells you how to do each mission even! Hell, even Bioshock gives you more choice in how your character acts (do you destroy the little sister or help her). And a few stat increases really doesn't make an RPG.... that's not really the level of customization some one expects in an RPG... otherwise most games these days are RPGs (so you're telling me Killzone Shadowfall is an RPG too then...). That's just taking an element from RPG and putting it in the game.
Shame Bethesda dropped the ball so hard with the Dragonborn. In Morrowind, though people tell you you're the Nerevarine/Incarnate/Magic Super Best Person, you meet a bunch of other people who were supposed to also fulfill that prophecy but ended up failing. It's pretty clear that if you didn't do it it'd just be someone else that met the requirements. Or you could just never start it and still enjoy exploring the world. Not quite the same, but for Oblivion it's pretty obvious Martin is a lot more important than you are.
It's a trickier problem than you'd think. I do understand why it seems silly to always be "the hero" in a RPG(in these terms referring to people that look up to your character, sometimes unquestioningly, as they're seemingly the only one that ever actually gets anything done), but the alternative is to play "random mook #2839" in the city that just gets stepped on at one point in the story. It's hard, very much so, to take the middle ground without going into the "chosen one" idea.
Realistically speaking, most actual RPGs can run into the "hundred" of hours camp, and someone actually surviving that long through the normal RPG campaign would have to be somewhat special. Games like Persona, while having the trope with the MC, I think actually toe this line a little better since you're also a normal school student that has to do things like go to class with the other people you're fighting with.
Realistically speaking, most actual RPGs can run into the "hundred" of hours camp, and someone actually surviving that long through the normal RPG campaign would have to be somewhat special. Games like Persona, while having the trope with the MC, I think actually toe this line a little better since you're also a normal school student that has to do things like go to class with the other people you're fighting with.
You do get to role-play though, you just don't get to make your character. In pretty much any RPG you do what your told, there has to be a quest, campaign or objective of some sort, even the freedom of a tabletop RPG is ultimately limited. And in most role-playing video games you have to accept that there has to be a stronger manner of structure or railing. But you can still role-play by swerving around and going down the path as you'd please.
Mang OP is so edgy. Also here is the word dick. It is a very popular word in this thread.
I'm a JRPG fan so being the center of the universe was never a problem for me. But hey, for variety's sake I'd like an RPG where you just got along with making your way in the world too. I think space sims like Star Citizen or games where you go around exploring and discovering things should fill that void.
For me the biggest issue with RPGs is execution. A lot of RPG worlds are stupid and boring trope infested derivative works.
I'm a JRPG fan so being the center of the universe was never a problem for me. But hey, for variety's sake I'd like an RPG where you just got along with making your way in the world too. I think space sims like Star Citizen or games where you go around exploring and discovering things should fill that void.
For me the biggest issue with RPGs is execution. A lot of RPG worlds are stupid and boring trope infested derivative works.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
That's why I ended up liking DAII, you're just someone who left your war torn country with your family and settle in a city state.
If only EA didn't rush Bioware they could've fixed all the shortcomings they had to made...
Harebrained Schemes has been great with this with all three Shadowrun games, they're always some big shit happening but you're just a random dude experiencing random things when running the shadows.
If only EA didn't rush Bioware they could've fixed all the shortcomings they had to made...
Harebrained Schemes has been great with this with all three Shadowrun games, they're always some big shit happening but you're just a random dude experiencing random things when running the shadows.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Oblivion is good at this. It seems like you're the main hero destined to do great things, but as it turns out
it's Martin who is the center of importance
BudokaiMR2
Member
I always thought that Suikoden did this well. Outside of Suikoden 5 and a few other outlying characters (Geddoe) most of the time you are a sort of nobody at the start who builds up their reputation and army over the course of the game.
Yeah by your imagination and the group. Not really many limitations except what you set for yourself.
Of course! Nothing really beats the scope of it. I think it's fun to work with what there is in video games though.
From your post and what the OP said, I think the most problematic aspect found in many choosen one tropes is how they are presented. Like usual, there isn't anything wrong with choosen one besides being so overused since it's lazily ought to make the players feel special. So the problem is when the world revolved around you. All of the event are catalyzed by our presence. It's impossible for anything to happened outside of players eye because the thought that everything must be watched by us. Badly written this will make game feels like wish-fulfillment power fantasy.
This is where LoH differ since the world revolved around the character, not the other way around. The main characters are just small part of much bigger event that outside their control. There are other characters that capable of catalyzing an event. The character might be special (of course being a main character of a story automatically grants them special status) but not overtly special. If we want to look to other media, One Piece is a very good example of this too.
Noooooooooooooooooooooo
