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Stop Making Me be The Chosen Jesus with a Huge Dick in RPGs (Spoilers for Everything)
- Thread starter Disgraced
- Start date
I don't think that is what OP is getting at, he's lamenting what is essentially "The Hero's Journey" in video games. The Witcher series is a good example of a series that doesn't follow such a cliche' plot, DAII attempted to do a similar thing but failed.
cj_iwakura
Member
Implying it's still not the best.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
?? Origins is designed after classic PC WRPGs.
MillionStabs
Banned
I can't believe it's really you, standing here next to meee
it's got an entire second half of combat dungeons which suck
I really should give it another go, it's something I've been thinking about lately.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You'd think Witcher would apply yet Geralt is given choices he shouldn't be the one making constantly.
Especially since his way of life is not to get into politics and not to choose sides.
Especially since his way of life is not to get into politics and not to choose sides.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I agree, being Commander Shepard gave me chafing
cj_iwakura
Member
Blood Cauldron. Vitae on tap.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
It plays differently on PC and consoles. I recommend the PC version if you can run it.
GTA V is probably one of the few games in a very long time where I actually role played (during my non-mission activities) on my first playthrough. I was an erratic and violent psychopath as Trevor, a scheming sociopath as Michael, and mostly well intentioned dude trying to make some money as Franklin.
HarryDemeanor
Member
I must have missed the part where I had a huge dick in Mass Effect. Why didn't they explain this in the game? Is it in the books?
It is ridiculous. It makes a little bit of sense considering his fame and respect among many in the upper class, but he never does any of that stuff in the books. In the games it's like if Obama asked Elton John if launching a nuke's a good idea.
Finale Fireworker
Member
OP should also check out Regalia.
Priapus10101
Member
STALKER series nailed it. You never feel safe, and a momentary lapse of concentration often results in near death and occasionally a swift death. This is partially why the STALKER series is unparalleled in the atmosphere department.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Damn, such an edgy OP... and your 2 examples kinda suck.. Trevor is just a psychopath and Geralt is pretty much what you said you don't like, it's just handled slightly different.
Maybe RPG's aren't your cup of tea, because they still have to work as a game.. and what works in P&P RPG's and books, doesn't really work in video games.
Maybe RPG's aren't your cup of tea, because they still have to work as a game.. and what works in P&P RPG's and books, doesn't really work in video games.
Some Nobody
Junior Member
I see the point you're making, but can I say you made it poorly? I don't need to be uber important, but I'd still like to MATTER. Every indie game I've seen that's basically "You're just some dick" pretty much makes me want to throw things. "You Are Not the Hero" and every variant like it? I'm sure the people who made them are wonderful folks and I wish them well, but fuck those games.
If anything, I wish the stories were less about "save the world" and more along the lines of Final Fantasy Tactics or Suikoden where you're just trying to stop wars or overthrow tyrants, not beat the fiftieth evil alien/monster who'll for whatever reason come back anyway in 20-50 years time making all my work pointless to begin with. But I sure as fuck don't want a story so small scale that I could do the equivalent in real life. Why'd I pay money for this?
If anything, I wish the stories were less about "save the world" and more along the lines of Final Fantasy Tactics or Suikoden where you're just trying to stop wars or overthrow tyrants, not beat the fiftieth evil alien/monster who'll for whatever reason come back anyway in 20-50 years time making all my work pointless to begin with. But I sure as fuck don't want a story so small scale that I could do the equivalent in real life. Why'd I pay money for this?
toddhunter
Member
Play icewind dale.
You are just a bunch of adventurers having adventures, meeting the odd bad person, having a few laughs.
It was refreshing how low key everything was.
You are just a bunch of adventurers having adventures, meeting the odd bad person, having a few laughs.
It was refreshing how low key everything was.
Langdon Alger
Banned
Trevor was a sickening character and having to play as him almost made me physically ill.
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
I think you just sold me on this series. Sounds like awesome concepts for characters, and a good break from the norm.
I agree on your exhaustion OP, but disagree on GTA V. Yes it's a roleplaying game, but I was never roleplaying as someone I wanted to be, let alone being around. It's one of the reasons I never even came close to beating the game.
By Azura, By Azura, By Azura, It's the Grand Champion!
Uh, why on Earth did you choose Bloodborne as an example for this?
Bloodborne's protagonist is the latest in a long line of hunters who served the Hunters' dream. Your fate at the end of the game can be the exact same as the hunters that came before you if you accept Gehrman's offer and let him behead you. And if you refuse Gehrman's offer, you just end up taking his job. The only way to be "special" is to eat the umbilical cords, which is something you do over the course of your quest and not something your character is born with.
Admiral Woofington
Member
You should probably keep away from every Bioware and Bethesda game then. Even Fallout 4 has you being the special by being the vault dweller and building your own town on the side and shit. I have no doubt the plot will be all about you and your important role in something.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Yeah some quests I really felt like not completing because Geralt would never be involved in stuff like it. I get why they did it but it felt wrong all the way.
MarcoZombieCannon
Member
I kinda like the Souls stuff since you aren't supposed to be *the* Chosen Undead. You're just one Chosen in a fat ole pile of 'em.
But yes this trope got old really fast.
It really irked me how MMORPGs got co-opted into the same old storytelling tropes once they got more popular. What started out as an exciting new frontier that could really make you feel part of this dynamic virtual community, instead got remolded into the same old familiar bullshit everyone is used to. You might argue it was always there all along in some capacity, but it was far from as overtly depicted. The change is probably best exemplified by the transformation Star Wars Galaxies went through, and according to what I read about the reasonings behind the decisions one thing was that they thought it was too boring for players to be merchants/farmers/diplomats and the likes, and it would instead be more exciting if everyone felt like the big protagonist hero.
Now all these theme park MMORPGs are built more than ever around maintaining a very thinly veiled illusion that you are the hero and center of events in the world. It feels like such squandered potential in storytelling, is often directly detrimental to the multiplayer experience (when they employ things like heavy phasing/instancing to separate you from other players), and is creatively bankrupt since it feels like all the writers are admitting total defeat in that they can not figure out how to tell compeling stories without centering everything around the player as a second rate power fantasy.
Now all these theme park MMORPGs are built more than ever around maintaining a very thinly veiled illusion that you are the hero and center of events in the world. It feels like such squandered potential in storytelling, is often directly detrimental to the multiplayer experience (when they employ things like heavy phasing/instancing to separate you from other players), and is creatively bankrupt since it feels like all the writers are admitting total defeat in that they can not figure out how to tell compeling stories without centering everything around the player as a second rate power fantasy.
NormalFish
Banned
So I don't necessarily disagree, but games will naturally have a bias towards this. Assuming you have an interesting story, and your character is in the center of that story (assuming your character is the hero), then you'll obviously get that "center of the universe" vibe. Even if you had a story about Joe Whatshisface going to get a jug of milk, by nature of the player only seeing Joe's perspective, and the dramatic story telling that frequently accompanies games, you'll get the feeling that this is some way over hyped ridiculous journey.
Because it is. Even though it's just a jug of milk. And even if your jug of milk is saving a nation from certain doom, due to the lack of perspective it will still seem far more important than it might actually be.
Because it is. Even though it's just a jug of milk. And even if your jug of milk is saving a nation from certain doom, due to the lack of perspective it will still seem far more important than it might actually be.
This is what I tell myself when I find my eyes rolling over a silly plot point.
Dark Souls is a bait-and-switch.
The Chosen Undead myth is to sucker undead into burning themselves alive in Gwin's place.
Demon's Souls and Bloodborne though? They're pretty clear that the player is just one of many. The other characters don't refer to you as "chosen one", they refer to you by your job: "Slayer of Demons" or "Hunter". You are one of many people trapped in the Nexus in Demon's Souls, and you are one of many hunters to serve the Hunter's Dream in Bloodborne. You are not special beyond being more tenacious than the others.
Holy Order Sol
Member
OP should drop everything and play fighting games as they are the greatest at making you fully aware that you ain't shit.
One of the nice conceits about the Lunar series is that scriptwriter Shigema Kei always notes that the motif is of the protagonist saving the woman he loves while incidentally saving the world. Sure, the first one is about a boy who achieves big heroic dreams but there's nothing particularly destined about it, and the second one hundreds of years later is someone who dreams of grander eras past but with no guiding oracle, just his grandfather and the desire to do the right thing when big events happen to come his way. It's simple, honest, and appealing.
The Chrono example above is a great one. FFXII is also a nice example to bring up (though not a fun example to experience) in terms of the "protagonist" being a feckless idiot who's just tagging along, but even with the complicated backstory of Tidus in FFX, he's also basically in an escort or guardian role so that he can help someone more important complete her mission. Kind of interesting.
The Chrono example above is a great one. FFXII is also a nice example to bring up (though not a fun example to experience) in terms of the "protagonist" being a feckless idiot who's just tagging along, but even with the complicated backstory of Tidus in FFX, he's also basically in an escort or guardian role so that he can help someone more important complete her mission. Kind of interesting.
I feel Dark Souls flips this around really well. Most people in the game are either laughing at your absurd quest, pitying you for thinking you can do it, or just outright taking advantage of your ambitions and using you for their own gain. Nobody actually believes you'll complete your quest, not really, not at first and it's said that you have not been the first to try it and that you will most certainly fail and go hollow before reaching the end, as so many others have already. Hell, it doesn't even start out as "your" quest, it's handed off to you by some other poor sap who already met his end. Also, with the ambiguous endings and the state of the world, who knows if you're saving anything or if it's even worth saving. It was a refreshing change of pace from all the RPGs where everyone shouts your name across the land and "ooooohs" and "awwwws" at your very presence and pumps up your ego as the savior of the world.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
The RPGS bethesda makes remind me of a video game version of that movie westworld
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I get what you're saying. From a story perspective, the Messianic character trope is annoying. From a gameplay perspective, it can get even more boring.
avrophantasm
Member
Eh, I think the Soulsborne games do a pretty good job ultimately subverting the Huge Dick Chosen Jesus thing.
The thing with the "chosen undead" title in DS is that
you aren't actually chosen; you're just resilient enough to be the perfect pawn for either Frampt or Kaathe. And since time is distorted in Lordran, there are multiple "chosen undead"s adventuring all at the same time. In both endings, you're serving an indifferent higher power for perhaps the better, but most likely the worst.
whether or not you can do anything to lift the Undead Curse. And the most prominent example of a an NPC doing the RPG ego-fluffing thing in the game other than Shanalotte is...Nashandra.
being able to ascend to a higher state of being and all... but almost everyone in Yharnam still died. And for all anyone knows, you might end up like the next Rom or Ebrietas when the next hunt comes around.
Well, the Soulsborne heroes do have the ability to help others and gain admirers or friends, (ex. Laurentius and Solaire, Yuria and Adela, or like Gascoigne's Daughter) but it's not like everyone loves them and all the problems get solved. More often than not, the Soulsborne heroes are unable to stop bad things from happening to others or it's really ambiguous whether or not what they're doing is good.
Let me just warn you since it's turned some people off of the series - there is a lot of world building and dialogue, and some people were a little annoyed at how long the 'bigger things' took to get underway - but in my case, I absolutely loved the low-key, chill and small-town feeling of the first Trails title. Every single NPC has their own little story, and they have new things to say every time something happens in the world, but you don't HAVE to talk to them, it's just there and you can figure out that story by just talking to the NPCs in the area.
You also might think that Sky has two protagonists - make no mistake, Estelle is the protagonist.
What? The hero's journey isn't about some chosen messiah, I mean it can be, but it doesn't have to be.
I was with you until Geralt.
He is the opposite of what you describe, like literally.
Not only is he ungodly strong (through his upbringing as a Witcher), but being a Witcher is only possible for, what, 1 in 5? Geralt was so gifted that I read he even went through -advanced- trials.
Although not named in it, he also becomes integral part of an end of the world prophecy, and ends up being one of the greatest Witchers that ever lived (as you note he is rather famous too).
As noted above, curiously (given its fascination for The Herald), DAI is a much better example of a nobody being at the wrong place & time, not a "chosen one".
Now about just being joe schmoe in a game... They're out there. The thing is, unless you are a rock star or Hollywood actor, we -Are- Joe Schmoes everyday anyway.
Why not indulge in some fantasy in our games?
Though I agree that not all games should be as such, I do not believe they are.
He is the opposite of what you describe, like literally.
Not only is he ungodly strong (through his upbringing as a Witcher), but being a Witcher is only possible for, what, 1 in 5? Geralt was so gifted that I read he even went through -advanced- trials.
Although not named in it, he also becomes integral part of an end of the world prophecy, and ends up being one of the greatest Witchers that ever lived (as you note he is rather famous too).
As noted above, curiously (given its fascination for The Herald), DAI is a much better example of a nobody being at the wrong place & time, not a "chosen one".
Now about just being joe schmoe in a game... They're out there. The thing is, unless you are a rock star or Hollywood actor, we -Are- Joe Schmoes everyday anyway.
Why not indulge in some fantasy in our games?
Though I agree that not all games should be as such, I do not believe they are.
Have not heard of this. Will definitely investigate.
How do you feel about chaotic evil or evil characters in general?
Well, the clever thing about Dark Souls is that it starts with you wandering around clueless and everybody acting like you aren't worth a damn. Then you meet Frampt, who praises you as the Chosen Undead and gives you a concrete goal and you feel like you've finally been rewarded for your struggles.
And the player can go the entire game believing they're the super special Chosen Undead until the last cutscene where they wonder why they're on fire. But if you do some investigation, you realize Frampt is bullshitting you. "You will succeed Lord Gwyn" sounds really impressive until you learn any gullible brute who is flammable will do.
I actually like the overall topic, but the way it's presented is a pretty obvious tag-beg and just comes off as lame and partial nonsense especially with equating GTAV into this. But I would like a little more variety in stories within RPGs, but I understand why they default to the chosen one a lot, it fits well with the idea of the epic journeys and the such.
Yeah, I'm aware of the entire story and I think it's really brilliant how it just flips that on you, I just left a general summary and didn't want to get too specific with spoilers.
KittenMaster
Member
Bloodborne is probably the last example I would pick. Almost nothing ever revolves around the main character in the grand scheme of things, you're more of an observer of everything happening around you.