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Torment: Tides of Numenera stretch goals being cut/reduced due to dev issues

K

Krakn3Dfx

Member
inXile admit that Torment stretch goal content has been cut, including companions


The companion roster has been slightly reduced from our initial plans. Throughout development on Torment, our philosophy has always emphasized depth and reactivity in our storyline and in our characters. We know you would not be satisfied with anything else. During development, we found that the more far reaching and reactive our companions were, the better they felt and the more justice it did to the original Planescape: Torment. This trade-off meant we were able to add more companion conversations, banter, voice-over, quests, and story endings. We did not want to leave some companions feeling shallow, with storylines that felt incomplete, or be forced to shove them into the late game.

That said, we certainly haven't shut the door on Torment’s development. We still have a lot of early work done on other companions and are open to continuing to work on the game. We can say that any DLCs or expansions that we put out will always be free to our backers of that game, so there is no need to worry about paying for any additional content in Torment.
Click to expand...

Hey everyone. The Oasis is still represented in the game, and as some of you have pointed out, we've shown it several times before in screenshots and media.

You may have noticed we've been showing off the Bloom a lot lately, and that's no coincidence. Despite being one of the earliest locations we showed, the Bloom was originally intended to be smaller than it ended up being. Though we initially planned for the Oasis to be our second major story hub, over time our fascination with the Bloom's darker, more Tormenty feel, led to it being recast as the game's second major city hub instead. We felt creatively this was the right thing to do, and the change did not shorten the gameplay experience.

As a result, the Oasis ended up taking on a smaller role, but you will still be able to visit it during the game.
Click to expand...

We're still going to release the Voluminous Codex, but we're now planning to offer it as a separate lore compendium outside of the game.
Click to expand...

Big fan of inXile, I've kickstarted all of their stuff because they've brought back genres and franchises that big publishers would likely have let rot away. Hopefully this doesn't carry over into Bard's Tale IV.
 
L

loganclaws

Plane Escape Torment
That's horrible, instead of the delaying the game to make sure they incorporate all they promised (and what people paid for), they decide to cut out on the content without informing the backers and choose to release asap.

I'm sure they will add more content in a future ultimate edition patch or whatever, but that means I'm not buying it on day 1 anymore.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
<Developer> We made a design decision

<Website Full Of Actual Social Cripples> DEVELOPER OUT OF CONTROL, SELLING LIES TO THE PUBLIC, NO MORE WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!!!!
 
C

cleveridea

Member
They end up selling copies after making it though right? So no reason they couldnt release and then create an update later as money comes in from people who want the game but didnt kickstart it...
 
M

Memory

Member
That's abit scummy, people paid extra and campaigned hard to hit those stretch goals.

I didn't back this game but I have two in the oven and I would be livid if they done this after all the pushing my friend group did and the money we donated.

The kick starter well is already being poisoned so this doesn't help. I have a feeling their backers will forgive them due to past work so maybe this won't cause any ripples.
 
T

toddhunter

Member
cleveridea said:
They end up selling copies after making it though right? So no reason they couldnt release and then create an update later as money comes in from people who want the game but didnt kickstart it...
Click to expand...

Of course. To be blunt, the main problem here seems to be that they currently have to deal with people dumb enough to kickstart a videogame and expect a smooth ride.
 
H

Hypron

Member
loganclaws said:
That's horrible, instead of the delaying the game to make sure they incorporate all they promised (and what people paid for), they decide to cut out on the content without informing the backers and choose to release asap.

I'm sure they will add more content in a future ultimate edition patch or whatever, but that means I'm not buying it on day 1 anymore.
Click to expand...

Delaying the game costs money. If you don't have that money then there isn't really any choice.
 
E

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
I'll try and give them the benefit of doubt, development never goes exactly how you think it will and plans change, but it doesn't inspire a ton of confidence for them to only now divulge this info a month before release.

inXile has a lot to prove for me. I found Wasteland 2 to be a rather enjoyable, but deeply flawed game. Torment is an exceptionally more complex game with a far greater legacy to live up to and after Wasteland 2, despite being happy with my backing of that project I'm not sure they're up to the task. It's an altogether different beast.
 
H

His Majesty

Banned
Stumpokapow said:
<Developer> We made a design decision

<Website Full Of Actual Social Cripples> DEVELOPER OUT OF CONTROL, SELLING LIES TO THE PUBLIC, NO MORE WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!!!!
Click to expand...

more like project mismanagement from inXile and Techland

I'm highly anticipating the game's release but I will still wait for reviews and especially impressions from the Codex before I dive in.
 
T

tuxfool

Banned
toddhunter said:
Of course. To be blunt, the main problem here seems to be that they currently have to deal with people dumb enough to kickstart a videogame and expect a smooth ride.
Click to expand...

Or rather, people that make a big deal out nothing. I'd say that significant portions of crowdfunding backers in general are those kinds of people. Can't see the forest for the trees.
 
V

Vamphuntr

Member
They are more or less saying they will add the stuff later for free anyway. Other kickstarters did this before (Shovel Knights and Divinity OS for instance). The only thing I feel is wrong is that according to the link posted the information was found through datamining of the EA then InXile actually had to confirm after.

Stretch goal are such bad ideas for gaming projects. You need to add goals because you want more funding but these goals often seems to cause development issues and delays.

Stumpokapow said:
<Developer> We made a design decision

<Website Full Of Actual Social Cripples> DEVELOPER OUT OF CONTROL, SELLING LIES TO THE PUBLIC, NO MORE WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!!!!
Click to expand...

Hummmmmm
 
J

jay

Member
Stretch goals like these are stupid. The devs were dumb to say they would stick to design ideas thought up long before actual development, backers were dumb to want them to.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
His Majesty said:
more like project mismanagement from inXile and Techland
Click to expand...

<Developer> We had originally aimed for 8 companions, but during development we decided to make fewer companions, but give each of them more to do

<Developer> We originally intended to have the Oasis be the second hub city and the Bloom a small area. During development, we decided to make the Bloom the second hub city and keep Oasis as a small area.

<Developer> We were originally going to put the lore encyclopedia in game but we figured that it'd work better as a website

<Fans> THIS IS AN OUTRAGE
 
M

Memory

Member
Enduin said:
I'll try and give them the benefit of doubt, development never goes exactly how you think it will and plans change, but it doesn't inspire a ton of confidence for them to only now divulge this info a month before release.

inXile has a lot to prove for me. I found Wasteland 2 to be a rather enjoyable, but deeply flawed game. Torment is an exceptionally more complex game with a far greater legacy to live up to and after Wasteland 2, despite being happy with my backing of that project I'm not sure they're up to the task. It's an altogether different beast.
Click to expand...


Wasteland 2 and the directors cut was what stopped me backing this. That game had good ideas but delivery was mediocre at best and full of jank. I'm not sure they're up to it either but I'm hoping I proved wrong as I want to play and I also want WL3 to be more than just pretty graphics.
 
S

Striek

Member
Stumpokapow said:
<Developer> We had originally aimed for 8 companions, but during development we decided to make fewer companions, but give each of them more to do

<Developer> We originally intended to have the Oasis be the second hub city and the Bloom a small area. During development, we decided to make the Bloom the second hub city and keep Oasis as a small area.

<Developer> We were originally going to put the lore encyclopedia in game but we figured that it'd work better as a website

<Fans> THIS IS AN OUTRAGE
Click to expand...

Pretty terrible summarising skills.
 
C

Coffee Dog

Banned
Stumpokapow said:
<Developer> We had originally aimed for 8 companions, but during development we decided to make fewer companions, but give each of them more to do

<Developer> We originally intended to have the Oasis be the second hub city and the Bloom a small area. During development, we decided to make the Bloom the second hub city and keep Oasis as a small area.

<Developer> We were originally going to put the lore encyclopedia in game but we figured that it'd work better as a website

<Fans> THIS IS AN OUTRAGE
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is contesting that they had good reasons to not fulfill their stretch goals.

They accepted money with the promise of those things being put into the game and those things are being revealed to have been scaled back heavily at the 11th hour.
 
L

Lothars

Member
toddhunter said:
Of course. To be blunt, the main problem here seems to be that they currently have to deal with people dumb enough to kickstart a videogame and expect a smooth ride.
Click to expand...
stupid people will always whine about something that isn't a big deal and doesn't sound like it is a negative considering what they are doing.

His Majesty said:
more like project mismanagement from inXile and Techland

I'm highly anticipating the game's release but I will still wait for reviews and especially impressions from the Codex before I dive in.
Click to expand...
it doesn't seem like that at all. It seems like some are wanting to be outraged for no reason and I'm a backer.

HP_Wuvcraft said:
Dude.
Click to expand...
he's on point.
Striek said:
Pretty terrible summarising skills.
Click to expand...
It's the best summary I've read so far.
 
N

napata

Member
Stumpokapow said:
<Developer> We made a design decision

<Website Full Of Actual Social Cripples> DEVELOPER OUT OF CONTROL, SELLING LIES TO THE PUBLIC, NO MORE WE WILL NOT STAND FOR THIS!!!!
Click to expand...

This defence only works if there wasn't a kickstarter with stretch goals promising this. Those stretch goals were there to make people pay more and to have more people back.

Imagine backing or upping your pledge because you fell in love with the concept of that companion only for it to get cut later.
Lothars said:
stupid people will always whine about something that isn't a big deal and doesn't sound like it is a negative considering what they are doing.
Click to expand...

How is it not a big deal for the people who paid for these companions?
 
F

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I am outraged that things in game development change. I only pledge to this kickstarter because I wanted Oasis and 8 companions, anything less is NOT what I backed. inExile? More like inCapableofprogramminggames am I right?

I backed this game and I have no idea what Oasis is or how many companions "should" be in the game.
 
H

HereticJ

Member
napata said:
This defence only works if there wasn't a kickstarter with stretch goals promising this. Those stretch goals were there to make people pay more and to have more people back.

Imagine backing or upping your pledge because you fell in love with the concept of that companion only for it to get cut later.
Click to expand...

Imagine backing or upping your pledge because you fell in love with the concept of that companion only for it to be shitty due to a lack of time/resources.
 
T

tuxfool

Banned
napata said:
This defence only works if there wasn't a kickstarter with stretch goals promising this. Those stretch goals were there to make people pay more and to have more people back.

Imagine backing or upping your pledge because you fell in love with the concept of that companion only for it to get cut later.


How is it not a big deal for the people who paid for these companions?
Click to expand...

Don't back crowdfunding campaigns if you're not willing to see cuts or alterations to the game as envisioned before it is even developed.
 
StereoVsn

StereoVsn

Member
Stumpokapow said:
<Developer> We had originally aimed for 8 companions, but during development we decided to make fewer companions, but give each of them more to do

<Developer> We originally intended to have the Oasis be the second hub city and the Bloom a small area. During development, we decided to make the Bloom the second hub city and keep Oasis as a small area.

<Developer> We were originally going to put the lore encyclopedia in game but we figured that it'd work better as a website

<Fans> THIS IS AN OUTRAGE
Click to expand...
On the other hand the game was "sold" on Kickstarter partially on the premise of the Oasis being a major hub and more companions. Developer decided to cut these features and wasn't really going to tell the backers until data was discovered.

I see it as being dishonest as they should have come out and released the info when decision was made and also perhaps they should offer refunds to those backers who feel that the decision didn't fulfill their side of Kickstarter bargain.

Also, you are being childish and offensive with your language far more the people freaking out about these changes.
 
H

HP_Wuvcraft

Banned
To be fair, there's absolute nothing wrong with this other than that the fact that people donated money to the very things cut.

There would be no issue here if InExile had left those things as "wants" instead of stretch goal promises.

The PR problem here is another issue entirely. They should not have waited this long.
 
Q

Quixzlizx

Member
StereoVsn said:
Isn't the bigger issue that they weren't going to tell backers of these changes till they got caught?
Click to expand...

They probably should have let backers know out of transparency, but I guess they were afraid of the reaction over the second major area called "Oasis" becoming the second major area called "Bloom," even though those are basically two interchangeable names to anyone who didn't know anything about the game when they backed it.
 
StereoVsn

StereoVsn

Member
Quixzlizx said:
They probably should have let backers know out of transparency, but I guess they were afraid of the reaction over the second major area called "Oasis" becoming the second major area called "Bloom," even though those are basically two interchangeable names to anyone who didn't know anything about the game when they backed it.
Click to expand...
They had these as stretch goals. It's fairly clear what the right path should have been. Especially considering issues with Wasteland 2.

Edit: Mind you, personally I am somewhat disappointed by the changes but it's not the end of the world. Bloom is just not my cup of tea for a major area and cutting number of companions is just unfortunate (was a downside in PoE and Divinity OS). However if the game delivers none of this matters.
 
H

His Majesty

Banned
Lothars said:
it doesn't seem like that at all. It seems like some are wanting to be outraged for no reason and I'm a backer.
Click to expand...

I am not outraged, there are simply too many red flags that indicate serious trouble during development.

- Game delayed from December 2014 to February 2017
- Techland becoming publisher in 2016 and console versions being announced not much later
- As it now appears a lot of backtracking from the original KS promises

I really hope (and expect) that the game will be one of 2017's finest but I am still wary.
 
Q

Quixzlizx

Member
StereoVsn said:
They had these as stretch goals. It's fairly clear what the right path should have been. Especially considering issues with Wasteland 2.
Click to expand...

I think you missed my point, which is that backers basically paid for a second major story hub stretch goal, which they are getting. Unless the stretch goal had a detailed and comprehensive description of the story material that was going to show up in said second story hub, which I am doubting.
 
StereoVsn

StereoVsn

Member
Quixzlizx said:
I think you missed my point, which is that backers basically paid for a second major story hub stretch goal, which they are getting. Unless the stretch goal had a detailed and comprehensive description of the story material that was going to show up in said second story hub, which I am doubting.
Click to expand...
They did have description of the area. Bloom is quite a bit different and much darker/creepier in nature.
 
S

Sasie

Member
In most cases I would give the developer the benefit of doubt. After all it's entirely possible to make strechgoals that sound good at the time but just wouldn't add anything to the game and putting them in just for the sake of it at that point will just hurt the game. I think the Stronghold in Pillars of Eternity for example didn't quite work out and I remember even Divinity Original Sin had promised features cut.

Howeverrr I think it's way too late to announce it a month before release and on top of that I just don't trust Fargo or InXile. They stared way too many kickstarter campaigns and haven't delivered nearly enough to have any sort of faith in them as developers. Torment was originally sold as a game with a release date of December 2014 after all and lets not even go into the whole disaster that is Bard's Tale IV.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
I backed the game and I don't really mind personally. I always go into a kickstarter knowing full well things might change or be dropped and as long as the game doesn't dramatically change from its original sales pitch I can live with things like this. They could have definitely mentioned this earlier though but I'm not mad I put money down or anything.
 
D

draetenth

Member
HStallion said:
I backed the game and I don't really mind personally. I always go into a kickstarter knowing full well things might change or be dropped and as long as the game doesn't dramatically change from its original sales pitch I can live with things like this. They could have definitely mentioned this earlier though but I'm not mad I put money down or anything.
Click to expand...

^.
 
S

Striek

Member
Quixzlizx said:
I think you missed my point, which is that backers basically paid for a second major story hub stretch goal, which they are getting. Unless the stretch goal had a detailed and comprehensive description of the story material that was going to show up in said second story hub, which I am doubting.
Click to expand...

That is what inXile is saying after being caught out and forced to address the issue. No one outside the team actually knows what the scope of one area will be vs. what was originally envisioned. Just like no one can say they truly are devoting resources to fleshing out the current roster of party members vs. simply mismanaging the project and cutting out what was promised and "paid for" by patrons.

The only certain thing is it isn't a good look not to communicate these changes as soon as they knew they weren't able to deliver the original vision.
 
D

duckroll

Member
As a backer the main thing I want is a good game. I would rather see developers make the best game possible rather than stick a checklist of features. Ideally every single stretch goal and feature makes it in and they are also of high quality. But that's not the reality of creative development. Sometimes an idea sounds better on paper than in execution. Once you realize that, it's better to have the balls to cut it out or change it rather than to stubbornly stick to it.

With regards to Torment in particular, it's hard to tell what has actually been cut because the forum post linked here only details the Oasis content being scaled back. There are no specifics about how many companions are cut and which ones in particular. Hard to get mad...
 
E

ElectricThunder

Member
My read on it mainly just amounts to them intending to do far better with post-release support than they did for Wasteland 2(if you want to be concerned on the lack of info on a project they are helming, WL3 by far moreso fits that bill), doubly so on account of some elements being harder to nail and them taking a broader view of it all.

If they don't either ultimately wrangle something or compensate it on flexing other areas in ways that perhaps would've been stretch goals unseen unto themselves at the end of the line, then that'd be the time to expect ire stoked providing anybody even cared at the end of such a lengthy journey to a probably good game they are counting on to bolster confidence en route to BT IV.

In the world of KS projects going all sorts of sideways at times, this isn't anywhere close to a inscrutable slant.
 
Buggy Loop

Buggy Loop

Member
I'm kind of afraid for the release on february 28th honestly, i loved the first area of the beta, although really buggy, but i feel like early impressions on release could go down south really fast?

nNQEX73.jpg


This is most likely gone right? It kind of pisses me off that they hype a CRPG game with content that would be found in a really good fantasy book but in the end they don't deliver on it.
 
D

Dineren

Banned
If the post linked in the OP is accurate that is pretty crappy. I've backed a lot of projects on kickstarter and don't get upset about much, but if you've got to make changes to what you've promised at least have the integrity to be transparent about it. Waiting until a backer datamines your beta and calls you out to announce it, right before release is pretty shitty.

That said, if they follow through on their post launch plans, this isn't a big deal.
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
There seems to be for some in the community a prioritization of specific rewards being fulfilled as opposed to the delivery of a good product overall. I can't say I agree with that but I do understand why Kickstarter at least makes it a little complicated. If you put money in specifically for something that gets cut, I suppose you could be justifiably upset. Does that happen often? Do people back for a specific thing even if the game suffers just to have that thing?

Development is challenging so I think some things are bound to not make it.
 
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