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XCOM 2 expansion 80 minute gameplay video

Sblargh

Banned
Oh, they kind of changed the story. I guess to fix the fact that without the tutorial (which you will only do once), the opening cinematic makes little sense. Also crucial piece of storytelling (the commander being rescued and having his chip removed) is also tied to a tutorial you will only see once in your life.

It's an Eurogamer video, but someone from firaxis is there explaining stuff.
 

Sblargh

Banned
These new features look really cool, but I am so terrible at these games. Like, so terrible.

There will be an even easier than rookie mode on the expansion, but regardless, even with the new enemies and the new fatigue system, I am afraid that the reformed AWC, plus bonding, plus faction heroes means you will power creep even harder.
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Oh, some features from the gotcha mod (like previewing flanking before moving) is now part of the game.
 
Watching a bit on lunch. These posters are hilarious. No wonder it's an 80 min video.

Goddamn. I am so in for another playthrough of this game. Firaxis just does such high quality work.

Also, Jake Solomon seems like a good dude to have a beer with.

It's the same campaign as XCOM2?

Based on listening to the discussion, it sounds very similar to enemy within. The main campaign still exists, but this adds all the additional content into a normal playthrough (I believe). And then the new updates apply to any of the standard missions as well (kind of like how they added meld, but it was in every map once enemy within was installed).
 

thumb

Banned
I loved Enemy Within, but couldn't get into Xcom 2. The game is actively hostile towards cautious playstyles. Was unfun for me.

So unless the easier mode strips out the persistent timers from missions, I don't think I'll be back on board.
 

Sblargh

Banned
Therea are other videos of the same thing:

ChristopherOdd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHr9U20WBw8

Yogcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd6CCpaHKwc
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If you choose to do the mission seen in these videos, then these story beats will always happen: it's always the reaper and the skirmisher, your first chosen is always the stealth one, the capture always happens, etc.
If you don't, then who you meet as your first chosen/faction will be random.

On one hand, that's cool.
On the other, it brings us back to the problem of the tutorial where you have this cool cinematic and story beat that you will only ever do once.
 
I loved Enemy Within, but couldn't get into Xcom 2. The game is actively hostile towards cautious playstyles. Was unfun for me.

So unless the easier mode strips out the persistent timers from missions, I don't think I'll be back on board.

Did you play on PC or console?

E:Haha, beaten.
 

Sulik2

Member
I loved Enemy Within, but couldn't get into Xcom 2. The game is actively hostile towards cautious playstyles. Was unfun for me.

So unless the easier mode strips out the persistent timers from missions, I don't think I'll be back on board.

The game gave you all the tools to handle needing to move faster then the first X-COM in those missions and forced you to think and play differently. I loved the timed missions. However, if you really hate them there are mods to disable the timers in all missions on PC.
 

thumb

Banned
The game gave you all the tools to handle needing to move faster then the first X-COM in those missions and forced you to think and play differently. I loved the timed missions. However, if you really hate them there are mods to disable the timers in all missions on PC.

Yeah, I didn't say it was impossible. And it's fine for them to want to emphasize a sense of feeling hurried. But for me, that's not what I usually look for in XCOM. I enjoyed most the sense of unhurried alien chess.
 

Hopeford

Member
I adored EW(and LW1) and put hundreds of hours in them, but I couldn't get into XCOM2 at all. Timers weren't fun for me. They aren't difficult, but they feel very limiting in that there's only one right way to approach a mission. So after I beat the game twice on ironman legendary I was basically out. ESPECIALLY since certain design choices killed replayability, but I'll get to that in a second. I tried modding the timers out, but since the game is balanced with timers in mind even the hardest difficulty becomes too easy. I also didn't like enemy variety, it feels like you spend too much time fighting advent as opposed to aliens, especially in the early game.

Which is a design choice, I understand, but not one I like. I'm here to fight aliens dammit.

There was also the issue regarding AI predictability that they made to address people crying that the game was cheating in EW. The line-of-play behavior was fine smoke and mirrors in getting people to not complain about actually random behavior not being random, but it killed replayability for me. (I was enough of a nerd to go into the source code to see what caused this :p)

Also didn't like the maps. For all the talk of how they were randomly generated and everything, they felt very samey and honestly the EW maps were much more memorable and fun to play in. I'd have preferred a hybrid approach that randomly altered X elements in premade maps than the parcel/plot mechanism they went with. It just feels so lifeless :/

So yeah, really couldn't get into XCOM2 which is a shame. But I'm hoping the expansion makes it more fun for me. I don't even expect the issues with it to be corrected since they are mostly design choices, but I'm hoping there's enough new stuff to make me enjoy the game again.
 

Phediuk

Member
Why did XCOM 2 only get like 1/100 of the attention and coverage that Enemy Unknown got?

That has to be the least-talked-about followup to a GOTY winner ever.
 

Hopeford

Member
Why did XCOM 2 only get like 1/100 of the attention and coverage that Enemy Unknown got?

That has to be the least-talked-about followup to a GOTY winner ever.

Speaking only anecdotally, a lot of the hardcore fans of Enemy Unknown/Within didn't like certain design choices so they weren't interested in digging through the game a bazillion times in replays. And I imagine the incessant "BEST GAME EVER" crowd is responsible for a lot of word of mouth.
 

Lister

Banned
I loved Enemy Within, but couldn't get into Xcom 2. The game is actively hostile towards cautious playstyles. Was unfun for me.

So unless the easier mode strips out the persistent timers from missions, I don't think I'll be back on board.

You mean you were fond of the completely boring, half move, overwatch, half move, overwatch, half move overwatch map crawl of the previous title?

The whole point of the timers was to stop that boring ass practice. I played Xcom 2 on the highest difficulties and the timers were almost never an issue, sometimes I failed them, but that's part of the strategy.

Once you let go of the whole half move then over watch of the previous game, you find that the systems and the strategies embrace movement, flanking, scouting, etc to a much larger extent.

The game just opens up when half move plus overwtach isn't the ONLY viable option, but is instead something to be used sparingly and when it matters.
 

Lister

Banned
Why did XCOM 2 only get like 1/100 of the attention and coverage that Enemy Unknown got?

That has to be the least-talked-about followup to a GOTY winner ever.

You mean in terms of GAF and in mainstream media? PC exclusive for 6 months.

In terms of PC, probably because of issues with performance at launch and people really hating the timer mechanics, simply because they kept trying to play the game the same way they played Enemy Unkown.

I do think the tutorial mission should have stressed ot the player that moving quickly was vital and gave examples of when to sprint, how to best use the stealtch mechanic, and when to slow down and turtle up (and how you shoudl kepe that to a minimum).
 
I adored EW(and LW1) and put hundreds of hours in them, but I couldn't get into XCOM2 at all. Timers weren't fun for me. They aren't difficult, but they feel very limiting in that there's only one right way to approach a mission. So after I beat the game twice on ironman legendary I was basically out. ESPECIALLY since certain design choices killed replayability, but I'll get to that in a second. I tried modding the timers out, but since the game is balanced with timers in mind even the hardest difficulty becomes too easy. I also didn't like enemy variety, it feels like you spend too much time fighting advent as opposed to aliens, especially in the early game.

Which is a design choice, I understand, but not one I like. I'm here to fight aliens dammit.

There was also the issue regarding AI predictability that they made to address people crying that the game was cheating in EW. The line-of-play behavior was fine smoke and mirrors in getting people to not complain about actually random behavior not being random, but it killed replayability for me. (I was enough of a nerd to go into the source code to see what caused this :p)

Also didn't like the maps. For all the talk of how they were randomly generated and everything, they felt very samey and honestly the EW maps were much more memorable and fun to play in. I'd have preferred a hybrid approach that randomly altered X elements in premade maps than the parcel/plot mechanism they went with. It just feels so lifeless :/

So yeah, really couldn't get into XCOM2 which is a shame. But I'm hoping the expansion makes it more fun for me. I don't even expect the issues with it to be corrected since they are mostly design choices, but I'm hoping there's enough new stuff to make me enjoy the game again.

Yeah this was kind of my problem as well. Modding the timers out takes a lot of the challenge out of the game.

Leaving them in made the game less fun.

Just a really poor decision IMO.
 

Lister

Banned
I adored EW(and LW1) and put hundreds of hours in them, but I couldn't get into XCOM2 at all. Timers weren't fun for me. They aren't difficult, but they feel very limiting in that there's only one right way to approach a mission.

I don't get this line of thinking. The whole point was to make it so that there WASN'T one right way to approach a mission.

PReviously there WAS only one way to optimally approach a mission. The whole half move, overwatch crawl everyone did. To do otherwise was folly.

Now, thanks to things like the stealth mechanic, the increased verticality of the maps, the rules for suprise, and various soldier abilities, movement is about making a number of various, interesting, tactical decision. Keeping in stealth, finding alternate routes, using higher vantage points so it's safer to sprint, etc, etc, etc.

I really can't fathom why people insisit that timers are more limiting. They only eliminate the obvious SINGLE optimal approach in the previous title, and replace it with a ton of numerous, viable choices.
 
The difficulty curve is my biggest problem with XCOM 2. It starts off tough and punishing but once you get your soldiers and tech up to speed you're wiping out entire formations in a single turn before they've had a chance to do anything.
 

Lister

Banned
The difficulty curve is my biggest problem with XCOM 2. It starts off tough and punishing but once you get your soldiers and tech up to speed you're wiping out entire formations in a single turn before they've had a chance to do anything.

Yes. The difficulty curve is a bit lopsided. It's super hard to get past the first few main objectives, but things tend to snowball unless you make a lot of mistakes.

I'm hoping this expansion addresses this issue (and it looks like it aims to).
 

Hopeford

Member
I don't get this line of thinking. The whole point was to make it so that there WASN'T one right way to approach a mission.

PReviously there WAS only one way to optimally approach a mission. The whole half move, overwatch crawl everyone did. To do otherwise was folly.

Now, thanks to things like the stealth mechanic, the increased verticality of the maps, the rules for suprise, and various soldier abilities, movement is about a number of various tactical considerations. Keeping in stealth, finding alternate routes, using higher vantage points so it's safer to sprint, etc, etc, etc.

I really can't fathom why people insisit that timers are more limiting. They only eliminate the obvious SINGLE optimal approach int he previous title, and replaced it with a ton of numerous, viable choices.

Finding alternate routes was frankly the unoptiomal move. The optimal way to play XCOM2 was to dash toward the objective. Stealth makes this a safe approach, but it's all that it is good for. Once you run into your first pod, you HAVE to fight them because XCOM2 is programmed in such a way that dancing around a pod will still mean that they will, even unactivated, reposition themselves in a way to activate themselves if you sneak past them. (In fairness, LW2 modded that AI behavior out) In addition, depending how close to to the objective you are, if you spot an AI pod while still undetected, they will just freeze and not move so you literally can't walk around them. Stealth is frankly mostly useful as a tool for dashing forward safely.

In fact, there is no reason not to dash forward like a maniac since you're so well protected while in stealth. The dominant XCOM2 strategy is using stealth to dash, engage in a fight, finish enemies before they get a shot off at you, and so on.

What I liked doing in EW(and LW1) was scanning the map, looking for a position full of cover, going to the next one and so on. That was fun for me because a wrong move triggered a wave of activations that reaaaaally fucked you over, so you had to plan around it. And while I'm sure you hated the overwatch crawl, I...didn't? I loved it, actually. XCOM2 decided to kill a playstyle a lot of people enjoyed and had fun with, so it's no surprise that those people don't enjoy the game. Like, if you weren't a fan of the playstyle and enjoy the new one more that's awesome! But it uh really shouldn't be a surprise why some people dislike it.

It's not a difficulty issue. I think XCOM2 is a lot, lot easier than XCOM1 actually(what the hell explosives are too good).

Enemy Within's system with meld was the right way to go - you could play it safe, or you could gamble so you could get fuel for more skills. It was a nice way of making you consider between risk and reward. XCOM2 does away with the risks of going forward while Enemy Unknown did away with its rewards. Enemy Within is my ideal system.
 

Ushay

Member
Cannot wait to play this again.

Out of interest did PS4 Pro get an update for this game, if so would give a decent idea of what Xbox One X may get.
 

Sblargh

Banned
Learn to play with the timers. They are far from being that punishing, especially on lower difficulties where you only have to deal with 2 pods in the beginning of the game.

Then when the pods increase in number, you probably have a ranger who can scout them allowing for freer movements.
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I'm not saying this in a "get gud" kind of way, it's just that:

a - it's a turn based game, you can take your time thinking about your move.
b - It's completely balanced and designed so you have plenty of time.

If the timer keeps beating you, that means you are either not moving at all because distances are rarely that big or not using your resources efficiently enough to kill pods as soon as they appear.

If you are into mods, I wouldn't recommend to remove timers, but instead to use the "gotcha again" mod, which, among other UI things, helps you visualize where your specialist can be to hack the objective, being able to hack something from the maximum distance possible often shaves the turns necessary to do it by a significantly ammount. Knowing for sure that you can reach the target in 2 movements instead of 3 or 4 makes some missions basically have no timer at all.

You can be cautious, you just have to learn how. And again, it's a turn-based game, it's not about skill, it's about knowledge. You *can* learn how to deal with timers, you can learn how to move properly so you are always moving forwards while staying safe.

For example, as a rule, after concealement, you can do the first blue move with your fist unit to be as farther as possible, to cover as much ground as you need to approach the target, as long:

a) you stop behind any sort of cover
b) that unit becomes the imaginary line you cannot cross.

Which means that if your first unit of the round move the farther it can move and it does not activate a pod, you can rush all the other to the square directly behind it, forming a conga line.

And if the first unit does discover a pod, then you have an entire turn woth of actions to deal with it before it can hurt you, meaning that engagements should, at most, last 2 turns, 3 tops.
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On difficulties below legendary, you'll usually meet, at the start, one single pod before the objective and one single pod after. If the objective is a rescue mission, then it's one, then another, then reinforcements.

Still doesn't give you carte blanche to rush forward, but it means you won't be wasting turns fighting, meaning you can focus on moving the farthest possible with your first unit each turn. You can be cautious, you should, but you need to move forward.

Learn the timers, they are not there as a cheap difficulty spike to fuck players, it's there to create an interesting dynamic gameplay that rewards the player.
 

CloudWolf

Member
I constantly forget that I own XCOM 2. Maybe I'll try it again when this expansion hits. What I played I liked, but somehow it didn't grab me the way EU/EW did. Probably also because I was deep into Darkest Dungeon when I bought it and two of those games at the same time is something my sanity can't handle.
 

Trey

Member
true concealment is a necessary mod for me with respect for timers. I like that they provide extra tension but more often than not they're overpunishing, therefore limiting your options.
 

Hopeford

Member
I'm not saying this in a "get gud" kind of way, it's just that

If the timer keeps beating you

You can be cautious, you just have to learn how.

Learn the timers, they are not there as a cheap difficulty spike to fuck players

If you say so. But it really sounds like a "get gud" post to be honest, given how much you talk about how to make it easier.

Not liking a mechanic doesn't mean you can't play the game. Look, gonna be honest here - I've beaten the game on ironman legendary twice. It's not difficult, it's just not fun for me. I can manage the resource management, I just don't like it. It takes away from the part that made EW fun for me. I kept playing it thinking maybe it was gonna click with me given how much I loved the old one, but...it didn't.

I really don't get this "If you don't enjoy timers, clearly you must be having issues with them" attitude. It's dumb. End of the day timers fundamentally change the way you need to approach missions - it should go without saying that some people who don't find those changes fun aren't going to like them. It has nothing to do with difficulty at all.

Some people didn't enjoy the timer based gameplay, and that's okay.
 
Omg, Jake Solomon cares about cognitive dissonance! Another reason he rocks. Too bad the Nice Mates ruined everything.

And man, the poster thing looks so much more fun than I would've even guessed.


This is a great video.
 

Falk

that puzzling face
In terms of PC, probably because of issues with performance at launch and people really hating the timer mechanics, simply because they kept trying to play the game the same way they played Enemy Unkown.

I feel like the technical issues really were a showstopper here. For the kind of games Firaxis does (medium-length several-day sessions, infinitely replayable) having persisting technical issues is a surefire way to drive people to find something else to fill their time even if they wanted to play more XCOM 2.

I know I was definitely in this camp, and I absolutely loved that the game being balanced around rushes actually meant shorter playtimes per map.

Other than that, the original XCOM (reboot) had the whole 'holy shit it's really happening' factor to it, and a sequel could be better in every aspect but still not have that factor to it.
 

Tacitus_

Member
For example, as a rule, after concealement, you can do the first blue move with your fist unit to be as farther as possible, to cover as much ground as you need to approach the target, as long:

a) you stop behind any sort of cover
b) that unit becomes the imaginary line you cannot cross.

I do this, but every now and then I get fucked over by backline getting seen while moving up to the point guy. Like I've moved half of my guys there and got them setup in overwatch and then that one guy sees that there actually was a pod on the other side of the building and everyone somehow completely missed it while running past the windows.
 

Sblargh

Banned
The difficulty curve is my biggest problem with XCOM 2. It starts off tough and punishing but once you get your soldiers and tech up to speed you're wiping out entire formations in a single turn before they've had a chance to do anything.

Yeah. Rulers were a soft-counter to this, especially the third one. The first is kind of a non-issue and the second is just sometimes problematic, but the third ruler is always an issue, aside from having a spark with the sacrifice skill, it is always a mid to late game problem, which is welcome.

So I guess they are taking this concept and expanding with the Chosen, as they power up with you during the game.

So I imagine the pods will largely stay the same, but then you do have to deal with this extra threat.

Still, my fear is that the game will be even easier given the extra set of tools.
 
I feel like the technical issues really were a showstopper here. For the kind of games Firaxis does (medium-length several-day sessions, infinitely replayable) having persisting technical issues is a surefire way to drive people to find something else to fill their time even if they wanted to play more XCOM 2.

I know I was definitely in this camp, and I absolutely loved that the game being balanced around rushes actually meant shorter playtimes per map.

Other than that, the original XCOM (reboot) had the whole 'holy shit it's really happening' factor to it, and a sequel could be better in every aspect but still not have that factor to it.

The performance issues were especially egregious because, prior to release, Firaxis was swearing up and down that everything was good; I know they essentially said as much during Giant Bomb's Unfinished, at least. Plus (IIRC) post-release they were seemingly caught completely unaware by the scale of the issues, which was a terrible situation for such a seasoned PC developer--making the game PC exclusive this time 'round, no less!

Like, I imagine most people heard more about XCOM 2's tech issues than its improvements vs. the first, and it's hard for me to say that's unearned with how it was at release. But this expansion can serve as a soft relaunch, and hopefully give XCOM 2 the legacy it deserves.
 

Sblargh

Banned
If you say so. But it really sounds like a "get gud" post to be honest, given how much you talk about how to make it easier.

Not liking a mechanic doesn't mean you can't play the game. Look, gonna be honest here - I've beaten the game on ironman legendary twice. It's not difficult, it's just not fun for me. I can manage the resource management, I just don't like it. It takes away from the part that made EW fun for me. I kept playing it thinking maybe it was gonna click with me given how much I loved the old one, but...it didn't.

I really don't get this "If you don't enjoy timers, clearly you must be having issues with them" attitude. It's dumb. End of the day timers fundamentally change the way you need to approach missions - it should go without saying that some people who don't find those changes fun aren't going to like them. It has nothing to do with difficulty at all.

Some people didn't enjoy the timer based gameplay, and that's okay.

I was mostly responding to the other poster complaining about not allowing for a cautious playstyle, thus I was saying "you can be cautious".

I don't think it's a "get gud" post because getting good in a turn based game isn't about having stuff you need to train for, like timing and button presses, but by better learning the rules, which you can do by watching other people playing or getting tips online.

It's not like getting better at Dark Souls, Starcraft or Street Fighter.

You can not like it, but you can't say it prevents you from being cautious because it doesn't, you just need to learn the rules as to how.

I do this, but every now and then I get fucked over by backline getting seen while moving up to the point guy. Like I've moved half of my guys there and got them setup in overwatch and then that one guy sees that there actually was a pod on the other side of the building and everyone somehow completely missed it while running past the windows.

It does happens a few times, but the game is punishing enough that happening even once can have very disastrous effects. That being saying, I find it reliable enough. As you progress, you can add more rules like never ending the turn of whoever have a mimic beacon or a freeze bomb so you can have a desperate plan B that can mitigate some of the damage at least.

The exception really are the rulers. If you activate a ruler unexpectly while fighting another pod you are fucked... but then again, if you just activate rulers by themselves on the conditions you are describing, you can just hit backspace and burn a turn because they *only* act during your turn, like, if you meet a ruler outside a timer mission and keep pressing backspace, you'll both stay there staring at each other doing nothing until you decide to act.
 

Luke_Wal

Member
Wow, this expansion looks insane. Do we have any idea if they're releasing a new (possibly retail?) package with the expansion and all the DLC? Bought the base game at launch and never got around to the DLC, so I'd love a total package.
 
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