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The Dark Knight Rises (Batman 3) - No Riddler

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A

Anton Sugar

Member
Scullibundo said:
Chills every time I watch that scene.

Empire still reigns higher for me though - on top with Munich and Schindler.

These are the types of magic movie moments that I just can't see Nolan pulling off:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19UROAIbtlw
Click to expand...

I did think this scene was fucking amazing.

SpeedingUptoStop said:
I don't get this much either. I see quite a bit of emotion in almost any Nolan character. I just don't think those emotions are universal to everyone, which isn't exactly Nolan's problem.
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Well, that's sort of the thing. Spielberg's characters are usually more relatable, or he presents their situations/feelings in a way that touch a broader audience. Nolan's characters are usually a lot more flawed and have damaging obsessions/motivations, which is less accessible. Much of the emotion in his characters is based on remorse/revenge and how the characters cope with it.
 
J

jett

D-Member
Lulz at Sculli for complaining about me mentioning Cameron, look at what this thread has become now. :p

p.s. Kubrick is the one true god of filmmaking.
 
S

SpeedingUptoStop

will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
Zeliard said:
I tend to think the whole "cold, soulless" charge leveled at Nolan is partly due to the subdued color tones that basically all of his films after Memento have had. I don't remember Memento being criticized for being too emotionally distant or whatnot, but all of his films since then have been criticized for it. The again, Memento was a ways back, so it may have been criticized similarly.
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I just don't think a lot of people can identify with the "obsessiveness" that a lot of his characters personify. Even Memento had this, but since there was a narrator, you could get more inside the characters head and "feel" why that was. Nolan's following films take that element out and just put the character's fronts up. There's a lot going on underneath the surface of plenty of these folks, but he doesn't make much effort put it up there beyond the character realistically going out into the world and putting on a face for everyone in it. Scenes like Angier's "YOU DON'T KNOW?!" in the Prestige or Bruce's breakdown after Rachel in TDK really get to me, but not to a lot of other people because they think they should be longer and more focused on - but that's just the thing about obsessive, dedicated types - they can't break down for long, they can't let it linger, they have to regain their composure and focus as quickly as possible. It's just who they are, and that kind of understated emotion doesn't speak explicitly to a lot of people.
 
D

Dead

well not really...yet
The emotion in the Prestige is just better relayed than it is in TDK or Inception though.

I don't think Nolans movies are emotionless at all, but I do think some of his movies pull it off much better than his latest ones.
 
S

SCULLIBUNDO

Banned
jett said:
Lulz at Sculli for complaining about me mentioning Cameron, look at what this thread has become now. :p

p.s. Kubrick is the one true god of filmmaking.
Click to expand...

LOL this thread was Spielberg v Nolan before you mentioned (or replied to a post about) Cameron. It was the reason why I asked about Cameron being brought into it.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
Nolan has always included an obsessive character, it's only in The Prestige where that character isn't the 'main' character.
 
B

brandonh83

Banned
Dead said:
I don't Nolans movies are emotionless at all, but I do think some of his movies pull it off much better than his latest ones.
Click to expand...

Batman Begins pretty much shit-kicks his other films in terms of emotional content, IMO.

The kid actor who played Bruce has more range than Bale.
 
S

SpeedingUptoStop

will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
Really digging how we can pull 700 posts down in one day over the title of the movie and one character that won't be in it.:lol

It's really great to have Nolan-GAF back together again for another fun two year ride.
 
D

Dead

well not really...yet
StuBurns said:
Nolan has always included an obsessive character, it's only in The Prestige where that character isn't the 'main' character.
Click to expand...
Jackman is as much a lead as Bale is, isn't he?
 
A

Anton Sugar

Member
SpeedingUptoStop said:
I just don't think a lot of people can identify with the "obsessiveness" that a lot of his characters personify. Even Memento had this, but since there was a narrator, you could get more inside the characters head and "feel" why that was. Nolan's following films take that element out and just put the character's fronts up. There's a lot going on underneath the surface of plenty of these folks, but he doesn't make much effort put it up there beyond the character realistically going out into the world and putting on a face for everyone in it. Scenes like Angier's "YOU DON'T KNOW?!" in the Prestige or Bruce's breakdown after Rachel in TDK really get to me, but not to a lot of other people because they think they should be longer and more focused on - but that's just the thing about obsessive, dedicated types - they can't break down for long, they can't let it linger, they have to regain their composure and focus as quickly as possible. It's just who they are, and that kind of understated emotion doesn't speak explicitly to a lot of people.
Click to expand...

Verily, we art friends.
 
D

DMczaf

Member
SpeedingUptoStop said:
Really digging how we can pull 700 posts down in one day over the title of the movie and one character that won't be in it.:lol

It's really great to have Nolan-GAF back together again for another fun two year ride.
Click to expand...

It's time to get the band back together.

nwo.jpg
 
D

Discotheque

Banned
Bruce had a breakdown after Rachel died in TDK? That scene was miniscule and probably one of the main reasons why people kept complaining that Bruce got little to no time at all to emote compared to Harvey Dent and even Gordon.

I'll give you Prestige though.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
Dead said:
Jackman is as much a lead as Bale is, isn't he?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure, I would say Bale was the protagonist in the traditional sense, I think he probably gets more screen time, he gets the vaguely happy ending, although the film is framed in the sense that you follow Jackman's confusion.

Maybe you're right, just doesn't seem that way in my memory.
 
O

OrangeGrayBlue

Member
Nolan is considered "cold" because he makes Rube Goldberg machines with his films, and the characters act as components of that machine rather than the one who starts the reaction. I think calling him "cold" is a naive way to look at it. Calculated is probably a better term to use. If he puts too much focus on a character's feelings, he'll lose the taught nature of the concepts that drive his films. Whether it's memory loss in Memento, stage performance in Prestige, anarchy and order in TDK, or a dream machine in Inception, he uses characters as a catalyst for the overlying concept, not the other way around. However, I don't think that makes his films soulless or cold. The last scene with Cobb and Mal in Inception is actually one of the more heartbreaking scenes I've watched.

edit- but anyway... BATMAAAAAAAN!
 
B

brandonh83

Banned
Discotheque said:
Bruce had a breakdown after Rachel died in TDK? That scene was miniscule and probably one of the main reasons why people kept complaining that Bruce got little to no time at all to emote compared to Harvey Dent and even Gordon.

I'll give you Prestige though.
Click to expand...

I failed, Alfred... I couldn't.../cardboard box

One time, in Burma...
 
A

Anton Sugar

Member
Discotheque said:
Bruce had a breakdown after Rachel died in TDK? That scene was miniscule and probably one of the main reasons why people kept complaining that Bruce got little to no time at all to emote compared to Harvey Dent and even Gordon.

I'll give you Prestige though.
Click to expand...

I thought Alfred's role in TDK was pretty powerful and one of the better written parts. Even though it's pretty minor, the whole "sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded" really resonates.
 
A

Anton Sugar

Member
StuBurns said:
I'm not sure, I would say Bale was the protagonist in the traditional sense, I think he probably gets more screen time, he gets the vaguely happy ending, although the film is framed in the sense that you follow Jackman's confusion.

Maybe you're right, just doesn't seem that way in my memory.
Click to expand...

I actually considered Bale to sort of be the antagonist, and I thought that was a great "trick" of the film--convincing you that Borden actually does
have some machine that defies the laws of nature
and Angier is constantly trying to keep up, to "beat" the "bad guy". But that transforms as the movie goes on.

What a great fucking movie. Underrated and underappreciated.
 
D

Dead

well not really...yet
Mr. Snrub said:
I actually considered Bale to sort of be the antagonist, and I thought that was a great "trick" of the film--convincing you that Borden actually does
have some machine that defies the laws of nature
and Angier is constantly trying to keep up, to "beat" the "bad guy". But that transforms as the movie goes on.

What a great fucking movie. Underrated and underappreciated.
Click to expand...
Yep, the movie really does a great job of leading you on to think that there is something else to Borden, not just that, but it even makes you WANT to believe. The first time watching it, it just didn't seem fathomable that occam's razor was at work.
 
J

jett

D-Member
That particular "twist" was ruined for me because of the
poor makeup Borden's engineer uses.
Or maybe I've just watched one too many
Christian Bale movies to easily recognize him.
:p Thankfully the movie doesn't lose anything if you figure that out.

Mr. Snrub said:
I thought Alfred's role in TDK was pretty powerful and one of the better written parts. Even though it's pretty minor, the whole "sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded" really resonates.
Click to expand...

Love that scene. The more I think about it the more I find Nolan's films plenty emotional. Never had an issue with that.
 
E

effzee

Member
Discotheque said:
Bruce had a breakdown after Rachel died in TDK? That scene was miniscule and probably one of the main reasons why people kept complaining that Bruce got little to no time at all to emote compared to Harvey Dent and even Gordon.

I'll give you Prestige though.
Click to expand...

Yeah I felt the biggest flaw in TDK was not that they didn't spend as much time on Bruce (they couldn't considering the plot) but even the time they gave Bruce was quickly edited away. This was the love of his life. The girl he was willing to give up Batman just so he could be with her. He was hoping she was follow on her promise that she would be with him. And we get a two minute scene where it comes across more like he is concerned with what Harvey will think.

I've said it before, but I wanted some more anger. Something similar to the type of breakdown or anger he showed with the loss of his parents but of course not lasting as long.

Anyway I felt Inception had plenty of emotion. I mean Cobb and his wife Mal were handled perfectly well in my opinion considering the action and the pace the movie went with. When he finally confronts Mal and you see her cry, even though its a single tear, or when Cobb sees her jump, and some of the other scenes between them two are pretty emotional and got to me.
 
A

apana

Member
I cant say who is the best and all that since I'm not a movie buff but Nolan has to be right up there. Inception is such an amazing film. First time I ever felt like I was really inside the film "world" while watching it.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
Mr. Snrub said:
I actually considered Bale to sort of be the antagonist, and I thought that was a great "trick" of the film--convincing you that Borden actually does
have some machine that defies the laws of nature
and Angier is constantly trying to keep up, to "beat" the "bad guy". But that transforms as the movie goes on.

What a great fucking movie. Underrated and underappreciated.
Click to expand...
It certainly is a great film, I think Nolan's best second to Inception. The thing is, Angier seems to be the cold one, the one who doesn't give a fuck about the girl he's sleeping with, the person who just wants revenge, and is willing to literally do anything he sees as needed to get what he wants. He kidnaps what we assume to be Borden's right hand man. His actions are certainly fairly typical of the bad guy, however we have his motivation, and subsequent obsessive nature given to us in really unusual detail and clarity. Antagonist motivations are typically either not really touched on, or something for the third act to reveal in way of a twist and building of the stakes. In that sense Nolan went way out of the norm with the roles, maybe that's one of the reasons it was so enjoyable to me. For the first act at least, they are neutral rivals if anything.
 
E

effzee

Member
StuBurns said:
It certainly is a great film, I think Nolan's best second to Inception. The thing is, Angier seems to be the cold one, the one who doesn't give a fuck about the girl he's sleeping with, the person who just wants revenge, and is willing to literally do anything he sees as needed to get what he wants. He kidnaps what we assume to be Borden's right hand man. His actions are certainly fairly typical of the bad guy, however we have his motivation, and subsequent obsessive nature given to us in really unusual detail and clarity. Antagonist motivations are typically either not really touched on, or something for the third act to reveal in way of a twist and building of the stakes. In that sense Nolan went way out of the norm with the roles, maybe that's one of the reasons it was so enjoyable to me. For the first act at least, they are neutral rivals if anything.
Click to expand...

I always watched the movie with Wolverine good guy and Batman bad guy if you go by simple black and white terms but I agree. In the end I just felt sad for both, especially the lives that were destroyed in the process because of their obsessions.
 
E

Expendable.

Member
there goes all these potential sequels:

Valhalla Rising Rises
Rise of the Apes Rises
GI Joe: The Rise of the Cobra Rises

fuck you Nolan :(
 
D

Dead

well not really...yet
Rise of the Apes has an awesome cast, plus Weta doing the monkeys, Im willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.
 
T

Thagomizer

Member
Discotheque said:
Bruce had a breakdown after Rachel died in TDK? That scene was miniscule and probably one of the main reasons why people kept complaining that Bruce got little to no time at all to emote compared to Harvey Dent and even Gordon.

I'll give you Prestige though.
Click to expand...


I actually really liked that scene and thought its brevity was a plus. Batman/Bruce doesn't have the time to grieve- he has one afternoon alone with his thoughts, and it's back to being the Dark Knight.
 
S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
I'd like to state for the record that I DON'T think Spielberg is awesome. Jaws and Raiders are both very good to great, but everything else.... eh. Has a good technical eye but no real sense for storytelling (and no matter what any film theorist tells you, no film lives a full life as a piece of art without a script that's at least good).
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
I'd like to state for the record that I DON'T think Spielberg is awesome. Jaws and Raiders are both very good to great, but everything else.... eh. Has a good technical eye but no real sense for storytelling (and no matter what any film theorist tells you, no film lives a full life as a piece of art without a script that's at least good).
Click to expand...
There are a couple more I like, Catch Me If You Can is actually great, and Munich of course is incredible, but for the most part, I agree.
 
D

Dead

well not really...yet
Spielberg having no sense of storytelling might be the most offensive thing I've read all day
 
S

Snowman Prophet of Doom

Member
Dead said:
Spielberg having no sense of storytelling might be the most offensive thing I've read all day
Click to expand...

Well, if you like cliche characters and predictable plot patterns, he has a GREAT sense of storytelling, but otherwise, his storytelling sense is simply not on a par with any of the great film artists of history, not even in the same galaxy.
 
B

black_13

Banned
Willy105 said:
The Dark Knight Returns is already taken by another Batman story.
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True but the comics and movies are doing their own thing, don't see how that would be a problem. Its certainly better than anything else I've heard suggested so far.

jett said:
Batman hasn't gone away. Where is he returning from?
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Blader5489 said:
1) How is Returns less tacky than Rises?

2) How does Return make more sense than Rises? Where is Batman returning from?
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1. Rise has just been used so many times in titles.

2. well from the ending of The Dark Knight, I'm guessing Batman goes in hiding/or leaves gothem for a while since he takes the blame, crime levels goes up, and he returns. That makes sense to me. I doubt they will pick up the story right where TDK left it. If you wanna get literal, where is Batman gonna exactly rise from?
 
S

SpeedingUptoStop

will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
I think Spielberg feels commonplace because his style is not only ripped and recrafted from a lot of serials and the like that came before him, but also because so many other folks have subscribed to the formula in the wake of stuff like Jaws and Raiders.
 
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