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So, Lord of the Rings, racist undertones or not? Your take.

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nib95

Banned
I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death before, or if there's a thread already on it (if there is I couldn't find it via search), but watching through the Trilogy now on Blu-ray, one of my favourite trilogies ever I might add, I can't help but think the trilogy really does have a racist undertone despite what defence I may have initially granted the film.

It's not that there aren't White guys that are bad. It's that there aren't any good guys that are Black, even Brown, not that I've noticed so far anyway. And the bad guys? Predominantly Black (build, faces, dreadlocks etc), Arab (turban wearing brown skinned, riding elephants etc) and so forth. It's literally like in casting they said, only obviously fair typically White people for the good guys, and aside from a few White traitors and people you won't know are White because of hair and make-up, mainly Arabs, Asians and Blacks for the bad guys. Then there's the constant "Men of the West" and similar comments which almost sound like they could come from Dubya himself (films releases were after all around the time of the invasion).

I'm finding it almost impossible to defend against the whole argument in favour of it. Yes it's based in fiction, and Middle Earth doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean it can't be racist. Any tale, story or novel can have racist undertones, often just in language alone. But in LotR I feel it's altogether more obvious than that, going beyond the boundaries of mere language and in to imagery and casting as well.

Now there's the recent drama about how a casting Agent from "The Hobbit" was fired for telling a Pakistani girl she wouldn't be cast for a role as a Hobbit because she wasn't "pale-skinned" enough. Kind of emphasises what many already feared.

Whilst the main characters may have been described as White in the books themselves, hence why I'm not saying Aaragon, Legolas etc should have been of a different colour. But there was nothing in the Novels as far as I could tell that stated not a single one of the thousands or hundreds of thousands of good Rohans, Elves, Drawrfs, Hobbits or Gondorians were Black or Brown. Which is why I'm perplexed not a single one exists in the Trilogy. It's not like they don't exists in the Trilogy at all mind, they do, just not as a single one of the good guys.

What are your thoughts?


.
 

SmokyDave

Member
I just can't imagine watching LoTR and worrying about the racial makeup of the mythical cast.

I think the modern world has too much free time on its hands.
 
It's not racist. However, I see the associations you're making, and I once thought to myself 'where are all the black people in this film?' when watching the series once, but I did not attribute it to racism or prejudice at all. People involved were not exclusively white. You ever read the books? The subject matter has a lot to do with it.
 

itsgreen

Member
You can find racism everywhere if you want to look for it.

Why are plates white? Blacks can't have food?

Why are doctor coats white? Because blacks can't be doctors?

Etc etc
 

nib95

Banned
Lol at the responses. Stop yer complaining, if you clicked the thread you knew what to expect. I'm genuinely after a well reasoned debate or discussion here. For or against the notion proposed in the OP and reasons why.
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
Nope.

I think you're reading too much into this.
 

Spire

Subconscious Brolonging
Tolkien wrote LotR to be a sort of ancient mythology for Britain, similar to Beowulf for Scandinavia. So...there is that.
 

Ratrat

Member
yes. High fantasy generally is. RA Salvatore seems to like addressing this fact.

edit: not against people but orcs!
 
You know what's racist?
Ants.
Black ants killing red ants.
Red ants killing black ants.
When will the violence stop, man?
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
nib95 said:
Lol at the responses. Stop yer complaining, if you clicked the thread you knew what to expect. I'm genuinely after a well reasoned debate or discussion here. For or against the notion proposed in the OP and reasons why.
There is nothing to reason or discuss, Tolkien made his views on race and politics abundantly clear during his life.
 

Shanadeus

Banned
nib95 said:
I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death before, or if there's a thread already on it (if there is I couldn't find it via search), but watching through the Trilogy now on Blu-ray, one of my favourite trilogies ever I might add, I can't help but think the trilogy really does have a racist undertone despite what defence I may have initially granted the film.

It's not that there aren't White guys that are bad. It's that there aren't any good guys that are Black, even Brown, not that I've noticed so far anyway. And the bad guys? Predominantly Black (build, faces, dreadlocks etc), Arab (turban wearing brown skinned, riding elephants etc) and so forth. It's literally like in casting they said, only obviously fair typically White people for the good guys, and aside from a few White traitors and people you won't know are White because of hair and make-up, mainly Arabs, Asians and Blacks for the bad guys. Then there's the constant "Men of the West" and similar comments which almost sound like they could come from Dubya himself (films releases were after all around the time of the invasion).

I'm finding it almost impossible to defend against the whole argument in favour of it. Yes it's based in fiction, and Middle Earth doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean it can't be racist. Any tale, story or novel can have racist undertones, often just in language alone. But in LotR I feel it's altogether more obvious than that, going beyond the boundaries of mere language and in to imagery and casting as well.

Now there's the recent drama about how a casting Agent from "The Hobbit" was fired for telling a Pakistani girl she wouldn't be cast for a role as a Hobbit because she wasn't "pale-skinned" enough. Kind of emphasises what many already feared.

What are your thoughts?
White-wash.
Except here there were no significant non-whites to begin with.

They should have brown-washed the movie, I don't think a black elf, gondorian or hobbit would contradict the lore.
 

Salazar

Member
nib95 said:
Now there's the recent drama about how a casting Agent from "The Hobbit" was fired for telling a Pakistani girl she wouldn't be cast for a role as a Hobbit because she wasn't "pale-skinned" enough.

What fresh cretinous nonsense is this ? Drama in whose tiny minds ?
 

louis89

Member
nib95 said:
Lol at the responses. Stop yer complaining, if you clicked the thread you knew what to expect. I'm genuinely after a well reasoned debate or discussion here. For or against the notion proposed in the OP and reasons why.
If you want a well reasoned debate you have to post a well reasoned topic.
 

RyanDG

Member
Tolkien's primary influences for middle earth was Anglo-Saxon tales and legends. Tolkien was not a racist and vehemently opposed racial subjugations. If anything, Tolkien could be faulted for being slightly euro-centric, but considering the nature of his influences and what middle earth was supposed to represent, this is hardly a fault.

And fuck, to be perfectly honest, the depiction of Sauron in his shape shifting form was described as being a beautiful white being with blonde hair. And this is one of the 'ultimate' evils in the world.
 

soqquatto

Member
this debate is going on since the '60s so yes you're a bit late. alsoo, too many capitalized words. Trilogy, White, Black, Agent...
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
I've always thought that there were some slight racist undertones in Tolkien until I recently took a class where we went pretty in depth into his biography. Apparently he was completely opposed to racism in all of its forms. He even refused to let Lord of the Rings be published in Germany because they wanted to make elves out to be Aryan and Tolkien was pissed. He wrote a long letter about how he was embarrassed to say he had a German background.
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
Well, he was Gandalf the White.

Not Gandalf the Vaguely Multic-Ethnic.
 
ChiTownBuffalo said:
Nope.

I think you're reading too much into this.

GAF thought people were reading too much into the RE5 trailers, though, so i dunno. i think he's asking the wrong people.

obviously LOTR was not conceived as a piece of white power propaganda but you could certainly make a solid argument that it's endemic of attitudes towards race in hollywood at the very least.
 

nib95

Banned
itsgreen said:
You can find racism everywhere if you want to look for it.

Why are plates white? Blacks can't have food?

Why are doctor coats white? Because blacks can't be doctors?

Etc etc

Those are both stretching it very wide. Not nearly the same, nor nearly as obvious. On a side note I've always assumed such things were White as it was easier to make out relevant stuff in question. I.e, the colour/quantity of blood or substance on a coat, or food on a plate etc. Everything just stands out more.

SmokyDave said:
I just can't imagine watching LoTR and worrying about the racial makeup of the mythical cast.

I think the modern world has too much free time on its hands.

Based on posts I've read from you over the years, I'm not surprised by your stance. You've never really been too sympathetic to such things, and I'd also add, as a fair skinned (assuming White?) person yourself it naturally might not carry the same weight. Also, you realise the irony of posting such a thing on a message board discussing the topic? Lol.
 

Salazar

Member
nib95 said:
I'm genuinely after a well reasoned debate or discussion here.

You ought to edit the OP, then. Delete this garbage.

Then there's the constant "Men of the West" and similar comments which almost sound like they could come from Dubya himself (films releases were after all around the time of the invasion).
 
Tolkien was a vocal critic of apartheid in South Africa and had fairly strong views about racism. And after reading through his wiki article, I guess if anything, what you're referring to could be unconscious Eurocentric bias.
 
somethingabouthatershating.jpg

I think that it is not so much racist as it is eurocentric and orientalist. Tolkein was a product of his time, and his time was not known for its racial sensitivity. From memory the books themselves did not describe the haradrin or corsairs as wearing Turbans or looking like Arabs, though it has been a little while since I saw them.

Then again the inspiration for the corsairs seems obvious, and is visually certainly drawn upon by the films (their ships look like dhows).

I think in general most fantasy has a similar thing, be it Prince of Nothing, Blade Itself or even SoIaF. The eurocentricity seems to define fantasy to some extent. It is always easy to invoke the cultural memory of the near and far east to evoke curiosity and fear.

It is up to you if you think it is a problem or not, but it is certainly there. I mean to be honest, if you see a thread like this and you come in only to complain, the waste of time is yours alone. I thought it was a standard of this forum that people made posts that contribute in some way?

Well anyway, I think it is an interesting topic, and I'm a junior so I haven't seen others like it. So OP, it might just be you and me.
 

Chuckie

Member
theignoramus said:
It's anglo-saxons versus everyone else. It has more of an ethnocentric slant than a purely racialist one.

This probably. That's also not the films 'fault' but the books. And while I think it is anglosaxon-centric, I don't think there was any ill intent.
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
345triangle said:
GAF thought people were reading too much into the RE5 trailers, though, so i dunno. i think he's asking the wrong people.

obviously LOTR was not conceived as a piece of white power propaganda but you could certainly make a solid argument that it's endemic of attitudes towards race in hollywood at the very least.

Orcs don't get fair treatment?

Listen, I used to be one of those angry protester/activist people, and if you look for racism, you are going to find it. But some of the shit isn't worth bringing up.

The Last Airbender, Dragonball: Whatever the Fuck Came After the Colon, those are examples of an attitude towards race in Hollywood.
 

Fritz

Member
The material just stems from times when that sort of racism was common state of mind. You'll have to decide whether to update it or keep it for authenticity reasons.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
RoboPlato said:
I've always thought that there were some slight racist undertones in Tolkien until I recently took a class where we went pretty in depth into his biography. Apparently he was completely opposed to racism in all of its forms. He even refused to let Lord of the Rings be published in Germany because they wanted to make elves out to be Aryan and Tolkien was pissed. He wrote a long letter about how he was embarrassed to say he had a German background.
The argument over Tolkien's racism is puerile at best.

Tolkien expressed disgust at what he acknowledged as racism and once wrote of racial segregation in South Africa, "The treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out from Britain."[96]
Tolkien vocally opposed Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party prior to the Second World War. In 1938, the publishing house Rütten & Loening Verlag was preparing to release The Hobbit in Nazi Germany. To Tolkien's outrage, he was asked beforehand whether he was of Aryan origin. In a letter to his British publisher Stanley Unwin, he condemned Nazi "race-doctrine" as "wholly pernicious and unscientific". He added that he had many Jewish friends and was considering, "letting a German translation go hang".
In 1968, he objected to a description of Middle-earth as "Nordic", a term he said he disliked because of its association with racialist theories.[100]
This, coming from a man born in South Africa more than a century ago.

Had his hate towards commnism be any less clear, he would have been labeled a negro loving marxist.
 

Veidt

Blasphemer who refuses to accept bagged milk as his personal savior
Its a tale of fantasy, about elves and wizards. Published in the 50's.

Are we honestly expecting black/brown people to be portrayed well, if at all?


I don't think there should be any brown/black people in the lotr, if it hasn't been written that way, then there is no reason to insert one just for the sake of PC. In fact, it'd be an insult to minorities; "Here, have one black character. Now go and generate us revenue".


In return I ask white people to stop hiring white actors to play Egyptians.
 
Sir Garbageman said:
If you wanna read some classic fantasy with unpleasant racial tones read some of Robert E. Howard's Conan stories.

Yup, while I love the old Conan stories, they were blatantly racist.
 

Darklord

Banned
How is it racist when there were all the races working together?

Is the Elder scrolls racist too for basically making blacks a separate race?
 

Salazar

Member
The fact that there are fucking GREEN characters should tip you off to the notion that an offhand critique of the work's racial attitudes is going to have to work really, really hard to pull itself free from the status of bilge.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
DoctorWho said:
Isn't the whole thing about a bunch of different mythical races working together.

It's anything but racist.

different mythical species actually...
 

ChiTownBuffalo

Either I made up lies about the Boston Bomber or I fell for someone else's crap. Either way, I have absolutely no credibility and you should never pay any attention to anything I say, no matter what the context. Perm me if I claim to be an insider
jorma said:
different mythical species actually...

Look what you are going to start,
 

Alucrid

Banned
nib95 said:
Now there's the recent drama about how a casting Agent from "The Hobbit" was fired for telling a Pakistani girl she wouldn't be cast for a role as a Hobbit because she wasn't "pale-skinned" enough. Kind of emphasises what many already feared.

telling a Pakistani girl she wouldn't be cast for a role as a Hobbit because she wasn't "pale-skinned" enough.

Pakistani

Ah, I see why the thread was made now.

345triangle said:
GAF thought people were reading too much into the RE5 trailers, though, so i dunno. i think he's asking the wrong people.

obviously LOTR was not conceived as a piece of white power propaganda but you could certainly make a solid argument that it's endemic of attitudes towards race in hollywood at the very least.

Black people? In MY Africa?

Veidt said:
Its a tale of fantasy, about elves and wizards. Published in the 50's.

Are we honestly expecting black/brown people to be portrayed well, if at all?


I don't think there should be any brown/black people in the lotr, if it hasn't been written that way, then there is no reason to insert one just for the sake of PC. In fact, it'd be an insult to minorities; "Here, have one black character. Now go and generate us revenue".


In return I ask white people to stop hiring white actors to play Egyptians.

Not to mention that the chances are good it would be a tolkein black character.
 

nib95

Banned
Funky Papa said:
There is nothing to reason or discuss, Tolkien made his views on race and politics abundantly clear during his life.

I'm assuming by your post you mean his racist opinions were well documented? Why then, were they bridged forward in the movies, in such a day and age where we have the responsibility to re-address such things. For example, supposedly Walt Disney was openly racist, and to a degree you might say it was thinly visible in Disney's early works. But look at Disney today, it's a multi-cultural responsible re-invention.

EDIT: Read your post above. So perhaps then Peter Jackson or elements of Hollywood itself instead are/were racist?
 

EatChildren

Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
The real question is why hasn't there been a Star Wars and Lord of the Rings crossover video game where you get to fly an X-Wing over the dead marshes into the depths of Mordor, through the sunken canyons dodging Nazgûl, to attack the weak point at the base of Barad-dûr.
 

Tacitus_

Member
Could someone post the quotes from Tolkien where he states that Saurons human underlings aren't evil, just mislead?

I think he also stated that orcs weren't absolutely evil, just twisted and corrupted.
 

SmokyDave

Member
nib95 said:
Based on posts I've read from you over the years, I'm not surprised by your stance. You've never really been too sympathetic to such things, and I'd also add, as a fair skinned (assuming White?) person yourself it naturally might not carry the same weight. Also, you realise the irony of posting such a thing on a message board discussing the topic? Lol.
I'm not sympathetic to idiotic hand-wringing. Actual racism is a different story.

Also, less of the fair-skinned. I might have blue eyes but I rock a killer tan.

Edit:
Alucrid said:
Not to mention that the chances are good it would be a tolkein black character.
I think I love you. So simple, yet so elegant.
 
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