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Reproduction Carts : Collectors Items or Overpriced Rom?

R

Rubius

Member
Hi,
Seeing that Pier Solar is back on Kickstarter and that the popularity of NES/SNES reproduction carts is rising, I wanted your opinion on the matter.

Do you think that Pier Solar is a Collector item? It is not an official game, but that never stopped the Bible Games and Tengen to get really high price on unlicensed games and be considered a part of the library.

What about reproduction carts? I recently bought Earthbound Zero, Clock Tower and Super Mario World : Return to Dinosaur Land at Timewalk Games who specialize on remaking games that never appeared in North America, or even never existed until today. They are high quality production reproduction. So are they simply overpriced Roms or a piece of the past that come back to complete a collection?

Would you consider a game like StarFox 2 a part of your SNES collection, even if its not a "real" copy?

Kind of curious of your stance on those new old games.
 
T

tenchir

Member
I think there a legal issue with selling games that contain other companies assets and trademarked character without a license or their permission.
 
R

Rubius

Member
tenchir said:
I think there a legal issue with selling games that contain other companies assets and trademarked character without a license or their permission.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that's true, but so far we have not seen anything done about them. Nintendo probably do not care all that much about somebody selling a Beta version of a game, or selling a game like Clock Tower, that never made it in the US or even a game like The Legend of Zelda : Parralel world, who is more of a massive Rom Hack than an actual new title.
If they try to sell stuff like Super Mario World reproduction carts, I'm sure that would be more of a problem than using rom and putting them inside a game cartridge. They are pretty much selling games that never existed.
 
C

cultureculture

Member
As someone who's done ROM translations, I think the basic idea of a repro cart is cool, but I don't like the idea of introducing money into the equation. Especially when it's done for profit, since that's just taking advantage of my work.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
The idea of repros is probably a fun project if you're an electronics hobbyist, but I can't imagine a collector's market developing around it. The people that are interested in spending big money on games typically look for legit stuff.

There are some exceptions though. I know HK bootlegs of Sapphire for PC Engine CD sell for a lot of money, but that might just be because they're often mistaken for the real thing.
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
On the one hand, I think the idea of being able to run English versions of games that never released in an English-speaking country, or homebrew titles, on actual hardware is a very appealing prospect.

On the other hand, $60 per cart-only SNES game is a bit steep.
 
R

Rubius

Member
frankie_baby said:
Isn't this basically piracy?
Click to expand...

Not really, piracy imply that you are copying something. In America, those games never existed. You would have to go to the Europe Market to get a game like Clock Tower, and Earthbound Zero (Mother 1) never saw the light of day outside of Japan.
Its more like Rom Translation.
Also, a game like Pier Solar is a new game, with new asset and new everything. Even the cart is a real cart made by them self. Its pretty much a legit old game.
 
R

Rubius

Member
cultureculture said:
As someone who's done ROM translations, I think the basic idea of a repro cart is cool, but I don't like the idea of introducing money into the equation. Especially when it's done for profit, since that's just taking advantage of my work.
Click to expand...

The rom is still available for free online, they are simply offering you to put the game inside a cart, box with manual and ect. You are more paying for the physical assets than the rom itself. And I'm sure they asked permission to the Rom Translator also.
 
C

cultureculture

Member
Rubius said:
The rom is still available for free online, they are simply offering you to put the game inside a cart, box with manual and ect. You are more paying for the physical assets than the rom itself. And I'm sure they asked permission to the Rom Translator also.
Click to expand...

I've never been asked.
Also, I did try to distinguish between my general apprehensiveness about involving money and my dissatisfaction with repros for profit.
 
W

Why would you do that?

Member
I don't like the idea of profiting from reproduction cartridges. Even games like Star Fox 2 or BS Zelda - why do the reproducers deserve making money on the game that others made, fan-translated, hacked, and patched? Getting an SD2SNES, Super Everdrive, or other flash cart and pirating games is bad, but this is much worse IMO since there's someone profiting from it.

Homebrew game cartridges like Pier Solar are different. They can even be collector's items, if the game has reached a certain level of notability.

Rubius said:
The rom is still available for free online, they are simply offering you to put the game inside a cart, box with manual and ect. You are more paying for the physical assets than the rom itself. And I'm sure they asked permission to the Rom Translator also.
Click to expand...

They're still making profit on others' work. They wouldn't be able to sell a blank cartridge for $95.
 
Mitsurux

Mitsurux

Member
Some of the ones i've seen are really nicely done.... but i wouldn't really consider them a collectors item... more of a conversation piece to me really...
 
C

Conan-san

Member
I dunno but I would kill someone for a Reproduction of the Mother 3 Translation.

And maybe the SRW J One too.

What I'm getting at is I want reproductions of unobtainable games.
 
A

A Twisty Fluken

Member
Rubius said:
The rom is still available for free online, they are simply offering you to put the game inside a cart, box with manual and ect. You are more paying for the physical assets than the rom itself. And I'm sure they asked permission to the Rom Translator also.
Click to expand...

Translated roms are available legally for free online? Do tell.
 
S

shuri

Banned
They are worth the same than a burned cdr. Which means nothing. And repro kills legit carts (but yes, i know that they came up with their own design lately)
 
R

Rubius

Member
shuri said:
They are worth the same than a burned cdr. Which means nothing. And repro kills legit carts (but yes, i know that they came up with their own design lately)
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about a reproduction of Earthbound, I'm talking of a reproduction of games that never made it to the America or never even existed. I dont see how having a reproduction of Mother 1 or a NTSC copy of Clock Tower would hurt the market.
Reproduction of real games like Chrono Trigger or Earthbound is bad, I do agree.
 
W

Why would you do that?

Member
Conan-san said:
I dunno but I would kill someone for a Reproduction of the Mother 3 Translation.

And maybe the SRW J One too.

What I'm geting at is I want reproductions of unobtainable games.
Click to expand...

It's easy to make your own repro of GBA games. Get a GBA flash cartridge for $20-$40, flash your ROM, stick a nice label on it, and enjoy something you probably would have spent $80 on elsewhere.

Rubius said:
I'm not talking about a reproduction of Earthbound, I'm talking of a reproduction of games that never made it to the America or never even existed. I dont see how having a reproduction of Mother 1 or a NTSC copy of Clock Tower would hurt the market.
Reproduction of real games like Chrono Trigger or Earthbound is bad, I do agree.
Click to expand...

It's not that it'll hurt the market, it is just unethical and illegal.
 
R

Rubius

Member
Why would you do that? said:
it is just unethical and illegal.
Click to expand...

I dont really see the difference between selling a Box, Cardridge, Manual with a rom inside of it, when the Rom is available online for free. They are selling the experience of a new Cart.
And I do not believe its actually illegal, but I have no Law experience on this.
 
Danny Dudekisser

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
If it's like... an original, newly-developed game or something that's just being put onto a cart, then that's collectable. If it's just some shitty romhack or like... Seiken Densetsu 3 with the Dejap patch, then no. That's a waste of space.
 
F

frankie_baby

Member
Rubius said:
I dont really see the difference between selling a Box, Cardridge, Manual with a rom inside of it, when the Rom is available online for free. They are selling the experience of a new Cart.
And I do not believe its actually illegal, but I have no Law experience on this.
Click to expand...

The ROMs are generally not available online for free legally though
 
S

Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew

Banned
Rubius said:
I dont really see the difference between selling a Box, Cardridge, Manual with a rom inside of it, when the Rom is available online for free. They are selling the experience of a new Cart.
And I do not believe its actually illegal, but I have no Law experience on this.
Click to expand...

I dont really see the difference between selling a Jewel case, CD, Album artwork with VBR audio inside of it, when the mp3 is available online for free. They are selling the experience of a new CD.

And I do not believe its actually illegal, but I have no Law experience on this.
 
R

Rubius

Member
shagg_187 said:
I dont really see the difference between selling a Jewel case, CD, Album artwork with VBR audio inside of it, when the mp3 is available online for free. They are selling the experience of a new CD.

And I do not believe its actually illegal, but I have no Law experience on this.
Click to expand...

The big difference is that the music sold was never actually sold here, is 20 year old and will never come back later. It would be more like selling reproduction Casette tapes of music from a Japanese band, sang by people in english, for your example.
 
D

discoalucard

i am a butthurt babby that can only drool in wonder at shiney objects
For people who want to play these ROMs on original hardware or want something neat to display on the shelf, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. But, the fact that people are profiting off of it makes it somewhat shader. I also knew one ROM hacker that was pretty pissed that people were selling his Castlevania ROM hacks without his permission, which is not cool.

I don't see how there's any real "collector" value for any of these though. These goods obtain value because they're in limited supply. If these are essentially homemade then anyone could do them. As someone else said, other than the appeal of the packaging, they probably have as much value as a CD-R. I mean, it IS basically piracy.

Pier Solar is a totally different case though.
 
F

frankie_baby

Member
Rubius said:
The big difference is that the music sold was never actually sold here, is 20 year old and will never come back later. It would be more like selling reproduction Casette tapes of music from a Japanese band, sang by people in english, for your example.
Click to expand...

Doesn't make it any less illegal though

To carry on the music analogy, the people selling the cassettes are doing so without the agreement of either the original Japanese band or those singing it in English and neither are they paying agreed songwriting royalties to either
 
R

Rubius

Member
Dwayne said:
Virtual Console etc? Why can't it come back later?
Click to expand...

I would be really really surprised to see Earthbound Zero or a game like this make it on the Virtual Console.

And also, a lot of games, like Zelda Parralel Worlds are totally new games.
 
D

Dwayne

Member
Well, notably "Ironclad" on Virtual Console is the unreleased MVS version of the game . So this stuff does happen, though it's uncommon.

Anyhow, I think repro carts are fine for home use, but making money off someone else's work isn't good.
 
Trojita

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
Rubius said:
Hi,
Seeing that Pier Solar is back on Kickstarter and that the popularity of NES/SNES reproduction carts is rising, I wanted your opinion on the matter.

Do you think that Pier Solar is a Collector item? It is not an official game, but that never stopped the Bible Games and Tengen to get really high price on unlicensed games and be considered a part of the library.

What about reproduction carts? I recently bought Earthbound Zero, Clock Tower and Super Mario World : Return to Dinosaur Land at Timewalk Games who specialize on remaking games that never appeared in North America, or even never existed until today. They are high quality production reproduction. So are they simply overpriced Roms or a piece of the past that come back to complete a collection?

Would you consider a game like StarFox 2 a part of your SNES collection, even if its not a "real" copy?

Kind of curious of your stance on those new old games.
Click to expand...

Damn I was wondering if they had Seiken Densetsu 3 on there, and they do, but damn they are expensive.
 
W

Why would you do that?

Member
Rubius said:
I dont really see the difference between selling a Box, Cardridge, Manual with a rom inside of it, when the Rom is available online for free. They are selling the experience of a new Cart.
And I do not believe its actually illegal, but I have no Law experience on this.
Click to expand...

Legally:
The ROM is not just available online for free, it's made illegally online for free. It's not supposed to be there. Selling content that's not supposed to be online in the first place is still illegal. Nintendo still owns the rights to Japan-only games like BS Zelda, Star Fox 2, or Mother 3. Them not going after some ROMs (like BS Zelda, which is easily and freely downloadable) doesn't make it legal, it just means they don't care to stop it.

Morally:
Fan translations, hacks, and patches are made for fun and for free. They take days, weeks, or months to complete. Someone sticking it on a repro cartridge and making money off of the work made for fun and free is like a big middle finger pointed to them. It's just making a quick buck off others' work. Game developers take months to years to develop games, and they don't deserve others making money off their work, either.
 
BibiMaghoo

BibiMaghoo

Member
To produce yourself for your own collection?
Go fucking wild dude.

For selling for profit?
Not cool.

Customer is ethical. Business reproducing the carts for dollar is not.
 
A

abasm

Member
Reproduction carts are actually antithetical to collectable value. If a game, like Earthbound Zero, previously only existed as a single beta cartridge, then an active source of reproductions devalues the original slightly. While the original still bears historical significance as the master copy, it is no longer the only physically native copy of the data contained within. Furthermore, so long as the repro source remains active, then the availability of physical copies is theoretically infinite.
 
T

Tempy

don't ask me for codes
I've made a couple of simple NES reproductions for my own use, but I've also bought repros of fan translations from others at what I deem to be a reasonable price (price of cart and manual labor). I'm not actually sure they got permission from the fantranslator however.

It would be nice if some of these fantranslators would work together with repro makers. Some of them explicitly note in the readme that they do not give permission for any carts being made.

I know some Homebrew makers work with someone to get carts made of their game (eg RetroZone), and it's always nice to get a physical cart of a homebrew game.

As far as being "collector's items", repros really aren't since they're not official and not "rare" (they can be made on demand) - therefore repros are never really high-priced. Of course there are repros being passed off as being original and sold at high prices, but they're not too hard to spot.

100WorldStory_Repro.jpg
Recca_Repro_3.jpg
Click to expand...
 
K

-KRS-

Member
I just have a Powerpak for my romhack and homebrew needs. Never saw the point in owning repros after that really.
 
R

Rubius

Member
abasm said:
Reproduction carts are actually antithetical to collectable value. If a game, like Earthbound Zero, previously only existed as a single beta cartridge, then an active source of reproductions devalues the original slightly. While the original still bears historical significance as the master copy, it is no longer the only physically native copy of the data contained within. Furthermore, so long as the repro source remains active, then the availability of physical copies is theoretically infinite.
Click to expand...

Isnt that the same as any copy of anything? I mean, Disney make a big fuss about his safe, but he can make Billions and Billions of copy of Snow White. Same for Nintendo, who could make as much games he want.

Its the number that was made once that the production is done that make it "collectable".

Is there any copyright clause against Roms is what I wonder. Do they act like Movies, Books or Music? From what I heard, Games are considered books from a legal standpoint, because they are pages of codes and everything is written.
 
W

Why would you do that?

Member
Rubius said:
Is there any copyright clause against Roms is what I wonder. Do they act like Movies, Books or Music? From what I heard, Games are considered books from a legal standpoint, because they are pages of codes and everything is written.
Click to expand...

Book scans and ebooks found online aren't legal, either (except if bought from a legitimate store that sells eBooks like Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or Google Play). All works of art follow the exact same rules, whether it's books, video games, music, movies, pictures, etc.

Maybe you're thinking about public domain books. Those are works whose copyright expired due to the age. You can freely and legally download Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, or Sherlock Holmes. Same for old music or old videos/movies. You can't do that with video games because games are a new art medium.
 
R

Rubius

Member
Why would you do that? said:
Book scans and ebooks found online aren't legal, either (except if bought from a legitimate place that sells eBooks like Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or Google Play). All works of art follow the exact same rules, whether it's books, video games, music, movies, pictures, etc.

Maybe you're confusing public domain books. Those are works whose copyright expired due to the age. You can freely and legally download Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, or Sherlock Holmes. Same for old music or old videos/movies. You can't do that with video games because games are a new art medium.
Click to expand...

Well from what I know, Public Domain Video games are like Books. So in about 30 years, Pong should be Public Domain. At least that's what my programming teacher told me.

What I'm asking is, if a video game is like a book, is a translation of a book illegal? Is it like fantranslation of anime? From what I understand from Fantranslation is that, until they are available in the US for example, Fantranslation are in a "gray zone" where they are non authorized, but still not illegal.
 
R

Rubius

Member
frankie_baby said:
True so if you know that why are you acting dumb and pretending you don't know ROMs are illegal
Click to expand...

I know that Roms are illegal.
My question is about two different things.
1. New games made for old system. From this thread, I think everybody agree they are okay, but not everybody agree that they are "real" games.
2.Games that were never made for the US. From this thread, most people seem to think that they are unethical, not really because playing a Rom is illegal, but more because the translators are not paid, and that paying for a Rom is stealing the game in a sense.

Mother 1, never came out in the US. There is no way for me to play the game in a language I understand. I could play on a Rom online with a Fan translation, and everybody would be fine by that, but most people dont like the idea of somebody making some money out of a game that is not there. I dont see myself paying for the Rom. I pay the experience of playing Mother 1 on a NES in English, having the Box, Manual and everything. For me its like buying a dedicated arcade machine with Mother 1 on it. Its not Legal, but all of Tengen games and Bibles Games were not either, but people still want Tetris made by Tengen.
 
W

Why would you do that?

Member
Rubius said:
Well from what I know, Public Domain Video games are like Books. So in about 30 years, Pong should be Public Domain.
Click to expand...

The times that works become public domain is a complicated subject... Here's what I got from Wikipedia about US copyright law:

- Published works (e.g. books, movies) before 1923 are in public domain
- Unpublished works (e.g. folk songs) become public domain 70 years after the author dies. (The "Happy Birthday" song is famously NOT public domain yet.)
- Work-for-hire works (i.e. a company asks people to make a work like a movie or a video game, and the company owns the copyright) expire 95 years after publication.
- Other factors, such as copyright renewal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain_in_the_United_States

You should look at the Wikipedia article. It's pretty interesting, IMO.

Basically, Pong will become public domain after a while, and when that happens, then you can do whatever you want with the game. (PONG doesn't have a ROM, though. It wasn't programmed, it was built by hand.)
 
F

frankie_baby

Member
Rubius said:
I know that Roms are illegal.
My question is about two different things.
1. New games made for old system. From this thread, I think everybody agree they are okay, but not everybody agree that they are "real" games.
2.Games that were never made for the US. From this thread, most people seem to think that they are unethical, not really because playing a Rom is illegal, but more because the translators are not paid, and that paying for a Rom is stealing the game in a sense.

Mother 1, never came out in the US. There is no way for me to play the game in a language I understand. I could play on a Rom online with a Fan translation, and everybody would be fine by that, but most people dont like the idea of somebody making some money out of a game that is not there. I dont see myself paying for the Rom. I pay the experience of playing Mother 1 on a NES in English, having the Box, Manual and everything. For me its like buying a dedicated arcade machine with Mother 1 on it. Its not Legal, but all of Tengen games and Bibles Games were not either, but people still want Tetris made by Tengen.
Click to expand...

You quite clearly said you didn't think it was illegal

Yes I agree totally that completely new games for old systems is legal but any kind of ROM hack of an existing game (whether released or not) is completely illegal, now if you want to get in to ethics of games you otherwise would have no practical other way of playing and/or understanding then that's different and everyone has their own opinion but don't pretend its not illegal
 
J

Jac_Solar

Member
Rubius said:
Not really, piracy imply that you are copying something. In America, those games never existed. You would have to go to the Europe Market to get a game like Clock Tower, and Earthbound Zero (Mother 1) never saw the light of day outside of Japan.
Its more like Rom Translation.
Also, a game like Pier Solar is a new game, with new asset and new everything. Even the cart is a real cart made by them self. Its pretty much a legit old game.
Click to expand...

So, as long as a game isn't available in your region, country or county (Where is the cutoff?), and isn't in production anymore, you may do what you want with it? As in, downloading, selling, etc. Not being sarcastic, just want your opinion.
 
F

frankie_baby

Member
Jac_Solar said:
So, as long as a game isn't available in your region, country or county (Where is the cutoff?), and isn't in production anymore, you may do what you want with it? As in, downloading, selling, etc. Not being sarcastic, just want your opinion.
Click to expand...

From the tone of some of his posts I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks the cut off is his house
 
W

Why would you do that?

Member
Rubius said:
Mother 1, never came out in the US. There is no way for me to play the game in a language I understand. I could play on a Rom online with a Fan translation, and everybody would be fine by that, but most people dont like the idea of somebody making some money out of a game that is not there. I dont see myself paying for the Rom. I pay the experience of playing Mother 1 on a NES in English, having the Box, Manual and everything. For me its like buying a dedicated arcade machine with Mother 1 on it. Its not Legal, but all of Tengen games and Bibles Games were not either, but people still want Tetris made by Tengen.
Click to expand...

Bible Games' games were legal. Game Genie was legal. The only reason why Tengen's games weren't legal is because of the way they circumvented the NES's protection (they illegally used Nintendo's patents or code to get their games to run on the NES). If they didn't do that, then their games would have also been legal.

Also, if you really want the "experience" of playing Mother 1 on an NES in English, why not get a flash cartridge, obtain Mother 1 (hopefully legally), patch it, and put it and all your other NES games on it? It's not only more ethical and better, but also cheaper. Is the fan-made label, manual, and box that you get with a repro worth it?
 
T

tenchir

Member
While you think they probably don't care about these markets, they do have to enforce copyright/trademark laws if they come across these things. Not doing so will make it hard for them to protect their works in the future if they haven't demonstrated that they are actively protecting their stuff. This issue is pretty black and white unlike abandonware where it's a grey area since the publishers/developers of those software aren't around anymore.
 
R

Rubius

Member
Jac_Solar said:
So, as long as a game isn't available in your region, country or county (Where is the cutoff?), and isn't in production anymore, you may do what you want with it? As in, downloading, selling, etc. Not being sarcastic, just want your opinion.
Click to expand...

The SNES have 3 region. NTSC, NTSC-J and PAL. They are Region locked. I do not think its ethical to sell a game in a DVD case, and I'm totally against pirated DVD. I buy for around 200-300 $ of Movies and TV Series every month for example.

But, in a case like Mother 1, I would have two option. Either I learn Japanese or play a translated Rom. And since Japanese take around 3 years with immersion to learn, and that I dont like Roms, I'm kind of screwed.
Like I said, I didnt buy the ROM of Mother 1. I bought the Case, Cardridge, Manual and the Flashing operation.

That's why people buy those reproduction carts. To get a professional quality job. Anybody can buy a SNES SD Cart, but not everybody, own a dedicated cardridge for Earthbound Zero or NTSC Clock Tower
 
A

Aquamarine

Member
Rubius said:
The SNES have 3 region. NTSC, NTSC-J and PAL. They are Region locked. I do not think its ethical to sell a game in a DVD case, and I'm totally against pirated DVD. I buy for around 200-300 $ of Movies and TV Series every month for example.

But, in a case like Mother 1, I would have two option. Either I learn Japanese or play a translated Rom. And since Japanese take around 3 years with immersion to learn, and that I dont like Roms, I'm kind of screwed.
Like I said, I didnt buy the ROM of Mother 1. I bought the Case, Cardridge, Manual and the Flashing operation.

That's why people buy those reproduction carts. To get a professional quality job. Anybody can buy a SNES SD Cart, but not everybody, own a dedicated cardridge for Earthbound Zero or NTSC Clock Tower
Click to expand...

If you bought a reproduction, you bought an illegal copyrighted ROM in a cartridge. Not a video game release. A ROM in a fancy piece of plastic.

You know what else is a reproduction? Someone burning a PS2 ISO to a blank DVD-R. It's the same thing, just with less finesse.
 
K

klee123

Member
About as valuable as a CD-R copy of a game.

Pier Solar is different since the software is an original creation and not a repackaged rom dump of an existing game with a fan translation.
 
F

frankie_baby

Member
Rubius said:
The SNES have 3 region. NTSC, NTSC-J and PAL. They are Region locked. I do not think its ethical to sell a game in a DVD case, and I'm totally against pirated DVD. I buy for around 200-300 $ of Movies and TV Series every month for example.

But, in a case like Mother 1, I would have two option. Either I learn Japanese or play a translated Rom. And since Japanese take around 3 years with immersion to learn, and that I dont like Roms, I'm kind of screwed.
Like I said, I didnt buy the ROM of Mother 1. I bought the Case, Cardridge, Manual and the Flashing operation.

That's why people buy those reproduction carts. To get a professional quality job. Anybody can buy a SNES SD Cart, but not everybody, own a dedicated cardridge for Earthbound Zero or NTSC Clock Tower
Click to expand...

So you haven't actually bought a genuine copy of the game anywhere then?
 
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