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Elizabeth is pointless outside of story scenes in Bioshock Infinite

pj

Banned
I am making a separate thread because the spoilers thread is all about the very good story, and most people in the OT are still playing and enjoying the very good game, and I am an attention whore so what.

I watched this presentation shortly before the game came out, and was excited by Ken's vision and how it would make Elizabeth's AI character more dynamic and important than typical companions.

He mentions that the team's most requested feature to cut was Elizabeth, and that he had to push really hard to make it work.

However, after completing the game, I am wondering what was the point? It's obvious from that talk that a great deal of effort went into creating her. She was designed to be able to navigate the world and react to it and not get in the player's way. Objects had to be designated as points of interest, special animations had to be made to interact with things, her facial expression and tone of voice had to change based on what was happening around her, and etc.

It sounds good on paper, but here are a few of the most meaningful interactions I had with her during gameplay.

1. I walk into a room and see two bad guys, I kill them and then start looking around. Elizabeth is upset now, I guess, so she decides to sit in a nearby chair and frown. However, there is a bloody corpse draped over a table not 6" from her which she completely ignores, making the whole situation look ridiculous.

2. I spend about 5 minutes in a large confrontation shooting crows out of my hand and setting people on fire and exploding other people. As the last guy dies, the music wraps up and Elizabeth says "ah!", to express her concern about what just happened, and then starts wandering around looking at crates.

3. I saw a locked door and pressed x on it.


As an AI companion, she is completely inoffensive, but I was expecting something more. I wanted Elizabeth to be Alyx taken to the next level. Instead, what I got was Alyx who can spot lockpicks and toss coins.

I assume the point of having with her with you at all times was to make you bond with her more, but if anything, it made me care about her less, since 90% of our time together was wordless walking around, or "here, take this!".

I think the main problem is that they tried to create a dynamic system where emotional moments would occur organically, but it cannot compete with traditional scripting, and I don't particularly see the point in trying. All that work especially seems wasted in a game as linear as this, with so few reasons to replay. I don't really care that Elizabeth will react differently next time I play, because if I ever do replay it, it will be far enough in the future that I will have forgotten what she did last time anyway. Instead of walking into a room and her sometimes wandering around and looking at a banana, and sometimes wandering around and looking at a desk, I'd prefer that every time she gasp in horror at the dead bodies and menacing message written on the wall in blood.
 

Reiko

Banned
I dunno. It wouldn't feel like much of a Bioshock game without a strong female presence.

But that's just me.
 
WANT SOME MONEY?

I like Elizabeth, both from a storytelling perspective, her animations, and her love for throwing me things I need that I genuinely appreciate, but she's nothing special or "revolutionary". Not really a huge step up from what Valve did with Alyx 5+ years ago
 

Guevara

Member
Yes I agree.

Having her find money and open doors for you seemed like a transparent attempt to make the player bond with Elizabeth, but since there's nothing deeper there it backfired for me. I'm guessing game design just isn't there yet.
 

datruth29

Member
She let me play the game a lot more aggressively as I knew that if I got shot up or if I used my vigor's to recklessly she would provide me with a boast. It also give me small periods of invulnerability where I can regather myself and think of the next steps I want to take in the combat. At least that's where it stands for me from a game play and mechanical point of view.

I feel like the point of Elizabeth (and what they spent most of the time coding into her) was the interactions with the environment when nothing was going on. She would go and look at certain things and react to certain people in a way that was completely outside of what was necessary. It kinda reminded of Shadow of the Colossus, when you would take a break and Argo would go to the nearest water source to take a drink. Completely unnecessary for game play, but pretty awesome from a mood and characterization point of view. Elizabeth to me was like that, but taken to a higher degree.
 
Alyx is overrated.

Elizabeth didn't get in the way, she gives you free shit, and doesn't at any point annoy the ever living fuck out of you like 90% of all escort or team AI.
 

DatDude

Banned
I don't personally think so.

She's a presence that feels SORELY missed when she's not by your side.

It's like I expect her to be there now..so it's incredibly difficult in the second playthrough to play the 1st few hours without her..feels empty..:(
 

pj

Banned
I thought she was quite useful at helping me find supplies and money.

Oh, definitely.

But, a Fink Mfg Personal Assistant Automaton could have done that job just as well, and there could have been moments of comic relief where you asked it a question like "what does love feel like?" and its head spins and shoots sparks.

Maybe that will be a DLC skin for Elizabeth, since it wouldn't require and behavior changes.

Her failings are as an emotional character, not as a utility droid
 
Pretty much. She's basically a backpack that you can't look into and them sometimes spits out inventory items when you need them. I think it works for the most part though. I was pretty grateful when she threw me a health pack that time.
 
I disliked how living in a tower for ~20 years with no real human contact didn't seem to affect her in any way, and she seemed to be scared of killing but had no problem with opening portals to Hell upon command.

If Levine wanted us to get hit in the feels with a moe protect-me character so badly, then I wish she was portrayed more like Nina from BoF DQ, where her life experiences up to that point left her utterly broken, but she still wanted revenge and wasn't afraid to get dirty to do it

Or, she'd change her reactions to you permanently depending on how much you killed or avoided fights. Maybe even run away and the story would branch off into a new path if you got a little too crazy with the melee executions as noted above
 

Jawmuncher

Member
Your feelings OP remind you me of myself.
Not with infinite but with the first Bioshock.
I remember the big deal they made about the little sisters and the choice you could make to save or harvest as well as some other things.

That part of the game ended up being pointless and nothing special that I was pretty dissapointed.

Not pointless in the since of story but for gameplay. Since saving them meant you'd get more Adam at the end of it while their was no benefit to harvesting aside from a little quicker Adam gain
 

LuuKyK

Member
WANT SOME MONEY? ... TAKE IT!

BOOKER TAKE THIS LOCKPICK!

YOU SHOULD SEE THIS!

lol I kinda agree. But seriously she was quite useful and she did help bringing scenery/weapons etc from other dimensions during battle. I also loved her presence and her comments so I dont really care.
 

StuBurns

Banned
Yeah, kind of. I think the game would be better without her constantly throwing shit at you.

The scene where she's
grabbed from the E3 trailer had a bigger impact on me then than in the game, so it's not like I value her more because of her constant presence either.

Team Alyx
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Having her find money and open doors for you seemed like a transparent attempt to make the player bond with Elizabeth, but since there's nothing deeper there it backfired for me. I'm guessing game design just isn't there yet.

33% of the way through the game spoilers (docks / before Finkton)

Worse, immediately after Elizabeth swears that she hates Booker and will not cooperate with him again, there's a locked door not 5 minutes later and if you ask her to unlock it, it's right back to shuck and jive smalltalk with Booker--the game could have learned from Spec Ops that contextualizing the character's relationships and emotional state in incidental dialogue is just as important as doing it in plot-critical dialogue, even if it means spending more time in the recording booth.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I disagree. In terms of strict mechanics, sure they could have just given you the ability to pick locks and such, but the game would have felt very different without Elizabeth by your side for much of it.
 

Eccocid

Member
Her purpose will become more clear when we start getting nude mods.

rofl....

I guess Yorda is still my fav AI companion even tho she doesn't do much (keeps getting kidnapped by shadows) she felt more alive then any other AI companions i have ever met.
 
I agree her real-world interaction was often a bit light. But I did feel like she was "there" whilst wandering around looking for supplies and stuff. In terms of realistic goals, though, I do think her role in combat should've been bigger - augmenting your powers or w/e like in the old videos.
 

DatDude

Banned
I disliked how living in a tower for ~20 years with no real human contact didn't seem to affect her in any way, and she seemed to be scared of killing but had no problem with opening portals to Hell upon command.

If Levine wanted us to get hit in the feels with a moe protect-me character so badly, then I wish she was portrayed more like Nina from BoF DQ, where her life experiences up to that point left her utterly broken, but she still wanted revenge and wasn't afraid to get dirty to do it

Or, she'd change her reactions to you permanently depending on how much you killed or avoided fights. Maybe even run away and the story would branch off into a new path if you got a little too crazy with the melee executions as noted above

opening to portals to hell on command?

Have you even played this game?
 
I was worried before I played the game that there was gonna be constant "protect Elizabeth" spots or keeping an eye on her. Thank god that isn't the case.
 
33% of the way through the game spoilers (docks / before Finkton)

Worse, immediately after Elizabeth swears that she hates Booker and will not cooperate with him again, there's a locked door not 5 minutes later and if you ask her to unlock it, it's right back to shuck and jive smalltalk with Booker--the game could have learned from Spec Ops that contextualizing the character's relationships and emotional state in incidental dialogue is just as important as doing it in plot-critical dialogue, even if it means spending more time in the recording booth.

90% spoilers

*intense scene near the end of Comstock house, Elizabeth opened portals to tornados and shit, things are serious now*

"Got another lock here"
"Really? That little ol' lock"

right back to lightheartedness again
 
I felt the same way. I really, really wanted to like her and feel that she was something new and revolutionary, but she wasn't. All she really did was bend slightly forward and stare at obviously placed "interesting" items until she finally decided to lean against a wall or sit down, and every so often she'd throw some stuff at me or unlock a door. Considering all the promises Irrational made, she was still very robotic and predictable. I don't think she was worth the time and effort that went into her at all.

Worse, immediately after Elizabeth swears that she hates Booker and will not cooperate with him again, there's a locked door not 5 minutes later and if you ask her to unlock it, it's right back to shuck and jive smalltalk with Booker--the game could have learned from Spec Ops that contextualizing the character's relationships and emotional state in incidental dialogue is just as important as doing it in plot-critical dialogue, even if it means spending more time in the recording booth.

Another big issue with her. Thank you.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Totally agree with those saying that the incidental dialogue needed to be frequently updated to reflect the tone that certain story events had set at various intervals in the game. I hope more games look to Spec Ops in that regard.
 
I imagine she at one point had a larger role in battle that eventually got pared down because it didn't work the way they wanted it to.

I'd rather her be superfluous than frustrating, really.
 

x-Lundz-x

Member
Her purpose will become more clear when we start getting nude mods.

SPOILERS - (Seriously do not highlight if you haven't finished the game):
Playing the game with a nude mod where she is the daughter of the main character...Creepy-GAF rejoice?

The game would be nowhere near as great if she wasn't with you at all times. She made the game. The vision of what they intended for her to be was toned down sure but still she needs to be with you or the impact of the story is lost.
 
I disagree. In terms of strict mechanics, sure they could have just given you the ability to pick locks and such, but the game would have felt very different without Elizabeth by your side for much of it.

It would have been cooler if the game had went full-on RPG and given you actual allies to fight alongside you, since it's clear that not everyone in Columbia is a malcontent sociopath waiting to set you on fire and take your shit like in Rapture, but the devs went through the "safe" route of making the whole game a shooting gallery so that you wouldn't have to think much
 

SummitAve

Banned
Besides the dog in fable she was probably the best AI companion in a game I've played. She didn't get stuck on objects, I didn't have to protect her, she didn't keep constantly dieing, she supplied me with ammo and salts so my combat remain fluid, she reacted in aw with the devastation and brutality I brought down on enemies, and she also provided some supplementary story stuff through the comments she made. It was great, I didn't have to worry about her at all, and she only benefited the game play I experienced. So many games have fucked this up before, and I'm impressed that they had her with you pretty much the entire game, and it didn't annoy the hell out of me.
 
I like how there are various spots in the world which she will sidle up to and lean against. It makes me feel like she's a real person. Also she's so expressive, like a little Disney princess that makes me want to protect her.
 

stktt

Banned
33% of the way through the game spoilers (docks / before Finkton)

Worse, immediately after Elizabeth swears that she hates Booker and will not cooperate with him again, there's a locked door not 5 minutes later and if you ask her to unlock it, it's right back to shuck and jive smalltalk with Booker--the game could have learned from Spec Ops that contextualizing the character's relationships and emotional state in incidental dialogue is just as important as doing it in plot-critical dialogue, even if it means spending more time in the recording booth.

Doesn't she claim that Booker is a means to an end shortly afterwards? Cooperating and communicating with someone doesn't necessarily mean you enjoy their company.

Besides the dog in fable she was probably the best AI companion in a game I've played. She didn't get stuck on objects, I didn't have to protect her, she didn't keep constantly dieing, she supplied me with ammo and salts so my combat remain fluid, she reacted in aw with the devastation and brutality I brought down on enemies, and she also provided some supplementary story stuff through the comments she made. It was great, I didn't have to worry about her at all, and she only benefited the game play I experienced. So many games have fucked this up before, and I'm impressed that they had her with you pretty much the entire game, and it didn't annoy the hell out of me.


Yup.
 

StuBurns

Banned
I like how there are various spots in the world which she will sidle up to and lean against. It makes me feel like she's a real person. Also she's so expressive, like a little Disney princess that makes me want to protect her.
The game has a lot in common with Tangled really, including Elizabeth.
 
WANT SOME MONEY?
I fucking LOVED THIS!

If you needed just a few coins to get an upgrade you were looking at in the shop and exited the machine, if you exited she often gives you just enough to get it (sometimes as much as a few hundred coins!).

It removed of the most frustrating aspects that games with upgrade systems like this can have: "Just a few coins away from getting that awesome power you want? SORRY you're shit out of luck for now! You can buy it after the next 15 minute combat encounter!"

Plus that coin flip/catch sound is so satisfying. "PING!/THWACK!" It sounds like she flips that thing at 100mph into your hand!
 

datruth29

Member
Ugh what...I played on hard and she maybe threw me 2 items per battle that helped but didn't make the game easy.

Yeah, totally agree with this. I played on hard, and usually she would throw you an item based on what you were running out on first (ammo, health, or salts) but than after that, the battle would have to go on for quite sometime before she threw you something else.
 
She gives me money/ammo/health/salt.

Which wouldn't have been necessary if they allowed you to keep reserve Health/EVE..er..Salt like the previous games.

I see nothing about Elizabeth that can't be found in Alyx, Trip, or Elika. Actually, those companions were actually more helpful in combat situations.
 

pj

Banned
I think the game would have benefited from having her be away, but still in contact, for large parts of the game. Hearing just a real human voice is much more convincing than rudimentary approximations of real world interactions.

Her role in combat does make the game more enjoyable, though, so I would like something to fill that role.



33% of the way through the game spoilers (docks / before Finkton)

Worse, immediately after Elizabeth swears that she hates Booker and will not cooperate with him again, there's a locked door not 5 minutes later and if you ask her to unlock it, it's right back to shuck and jive smalltalk with Booker--the game could have learned from Spec Ops that contextualizing the character's relationships and emotional state in incidental dialogue is just as important as doing it in plot-critical dialogue, even if it means spending more time in the recording booth.

Ken actually called that out in the talk I linked to in the OP. She has different versions of the same line for different moods. They must have missed some, or the logic that picks the proper line isn't perfect.
 
a Fink Mfg Personal Assistant Automaton could have done that job just as well, and there could have been moments of comic relief where you asked it a question like "what does love feel like?" and its head spins and shoots sparks.
Oh I like this idea, that would have been funny and provided a bit of levity to an otherwise pretty serious game.
 
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