-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Elizabeth is pointless outside of story scenes in Bioshock Infinite
- Thread starter pj
- Start date
Mr.Monitor
Member
This is completely true, but does that really justify anything? If I was going to write a story for a game, I wouldn't structure it around such a half baked concept.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
BI's sound design is so good, that even catching money sounds awesome
So, her best, most defining feature is she stays out of the way? Congratulations, so did Navi in Ocarina of Time, what's your point? The only difference is Navi didn't throw you hearts, magic, or arrows when you were low, nor did she throw out rubies whenever. But she could have been programmed to, and if she was, would she then be as "revolutionary" as Elizabeth was?
Let's face facts folks, Elizabeth was a fantastic character, but her following you around was pointless. To anyone saying she was a better AI than Alyx, that's just a flat out lie, not an opinion. Half Life 2 is how old now? Can SOMEONE make a good damn ai partner?
Actually for me, she always didnt answer and was silent while she picked the lock. I thought that was how it was for everyone.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
In story dialogue maybe, but in the context I'm talking about--incidental dialogue, specifically on lock-picking, no she didn't say anything like that. She kept it cool and casual.
I think the first line I got after that particular thing was "What? This ol' lock? *chuckles*" which is probably her most playful dialogue choice and definitely suggests a warm feeling between the two. Anyone else want to share their experience with that moment and the gameplay sections shortly thereafter?
She also continues to give Booker junk at that point and has the same helpful wink-friendly tossing animation and setup.
ThisWreckage
Banned
She's an emotive walking vending machine.
Normally you alert people that you are going to flip large coins at them.
Tough cookies. BioShock is well-loved enough that the front page is going to serve as a series of slapdash blogs as "topics" from random people on the Internet for the next couple of weeks.
I don't personally think so.
She's a presence that feels SORELY missed when she's not by your side.
It's like I expect her to be there now..so it's incredibly difficult in the second playthrough to play the 1st few hours without her..feels empty..
This, she ties you to the narrative even just being there.
Little things, little reactions to tense situations and animations as well as the help she gives.
Could the game be done without her? Probably. Would have enjoyed it a hell of alot less.
I found this exact portion jarring as well.
I liked one time she'd say she'd be fine on her own after going on a skyhook and jumping on a roof or something, indicating it's an area she cannot get to. 5 seconds later she was behind me, somehow. Good times.
So she could have been a talking piece in your ear like Cortana from Halo then?
Acquiescence
Member
She's a godsend on 1999 mode though.
What I was trying to say is it would be easier to just say that she found money and automatically deposit it instead of making me go through the same 5 second scene hundreds of times.
She was great in combat. Pointing at a tear spot and yelling "ELIZABETH, NOW!" and her responding "I'M ON IT" as she materialized a cover spot, a sniper roost, a skyhook, a turret, etc, made it feel like a scene out of an action movie, where the hero and heroine are shouting back and forth under fire and actually working together. The bits where she throws you health, salt or ammo are slickly done and saved me on more than one occasion. The fact she's invincible means you don't have to babysit her, either, so the game never becomes an escort mission in any way, shape or form. Yet the animators still made her take cover during firefights, which is a nice immersive touch that makes it feel like she's still in danger.
In non-combat situations, she's inoffensive. She does a good job keeping up with you, even as you navigate the skylines. When you start moving in the direction of your next objective, she charges ahead. If you're scouring the area, she'll casually sit down or lean against the scenery or look at scattered newspapers or inspect paintings and statues. It's organic, and it works. She feels like she's there, and you're not alone, but on this journey with another character .
She's no "revolutionary AI," but she is an extremely well-done "Alyx 2.0." She infuses this game with a tremendous warmth and personality that BioShock 1 and 2 never had. She's exquisitely animated like a Disney princess, endlessly photogenic for those of us who love taking screenshots.
And, from a narrative standpoint, she was superb. The moments where she's taken away from you or she's in distress, you feel it. With a sense of urgency I've never encountered in a game before. And no need for cheap gimmicks like timers, either.
All in all, I can't complain. Elizabeth is great.
In non-combat situations, she's inoffensive. She does a good job keeping up with you, even as you navigate the skylines. When you start moving in the direction of your next objective, she charges ahead. If you're scouring the area, she'll casually sit down or lean against the scenery or look at scattered newspapers or inspect paintings and statues. It's organic, and it works. She feels like she's there, and you're not alone, but on this journey with another character .
She's no "revolutionary AI," but she is an extremely well-done "Alyx 2.0." She infuses this game with a tremendous warmth and personality that BioShock 1 and 2 never had. She's exquisitely animated like a Disney princess, endlessly photogenic for those of us who love taking screenshots.
And, from a narrative standpoint, she was superb. The moments where she's taken away from you or she's in distress, you feel it. With a sense of urgency I've never encountered in a game before. And no need for cheap gimmicks like timers, either.
All in all, I can't complain. Elizabeth is great.
XANDER CAGE
Member
She's definitely more than the sum of her parts. I wouldn't really call her an AI partner, more of a well-executed character. She doesn't fight and exists as an explanation for the game's choose-a-helpful-combat-thing mechanic, but her characterization was strong enough that whenever she wasn't around, she was sorely missed.
I think the Alyx comparison is apt - it's less about her being a key element to cooperate with, but a way to forge a connection with the story and world. Infinite would have been considerably less cool if she only popped up in cutscenes - having Elizabeth present at all times makes the connection constant.
I think the Alyx comparison is apt - it's less about her being a key element to cooperate with, but a way to forge a connection with the story and world. Infinite would have been considerably less cool if she only popped up in cutscenes - having Elizabeth present at all times makes the connection constant.
Pretty much.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
I think she is a very good AI companion. My only real issue with Elizabeth (apart from her accent which has been starting to grate of late... hey, that rhymed!) is that she is never EVER under any threat. Outside of the story, I don't feel nearly as protective of her as I was expecting. I understand that Levine didn't want this to be an elongated escort but... yeah, I dunno, if it had an ICO-like moment when enemies "occasionally" try to drag her off or something for a non-standard gameover, I might feel a little more for her. Do you know what I mean?
Also, when she throws money at me, I feel dirty and used.
Also, when she throws money at me, I feel dirty and used.
I haven't finished the game yet and I'm definitely feeling that way but I am still waiting for some kind of payoff for this relationship/interaction. Elizabeth throwing salts/health kits/ammo could easily be replaced by the enemies dropping those items more frequently/abundantly or them being on the environment, so I just hope that the narrative gives me that payoff that the gameplay is lacking.
edit: I forgot the tears mechanic. That is indeed a great tool/mechanic to have at our disposal, but it still seems a bit passive.
edit: I forgot the tears mechanic. That is indeed a great tool/mechanic to have at our disposal, but it still seems a bit passive.
I somewhat agree.
While I absolutely love the character, I was disappointed with the walking-about interactions she had. Especially compared to the demonstration.
Ken talked about how the beach was the big showcase for her, that they put all this work and effort into making her do stuff based on where the player was looking.
I got to that part, excited to see the next generation of AI companions and was left with "That's it? You guys spent five years arguing about this?".
Now I'm sure the technical stuff going on underneath is super impressive and complicated, and I don't want to disrespect all the work and passion that went into creating an AI companion, I just didn't feel it was a significant step forward in terms of what I, the player, experienced. This is the important part. At the end of the day, this is what matters. Not the underlying tech.
With that said, the game felt super lonely without Liz around during certain sections, so at least they did that part right.
While I absolutely love the character, I was disappointed with the walking-about interactions she had. Especially compared to the demonstration.
Ken talked about how the beach was the big showcase for her, that they put all this work and effort into making her do stuff based on where the player was looking.
I got to that part, excited to see the next generation of AI companions and was left with "That's it? You guys spent five years arguing about this?".
Now I'm sure the technical stuff going on underneath is super impressive and complicated, and I don't want to disrespect all the work and passion that went into creating an AI companion, I just didn't feel it was a significant step forward in terms of what I, the player, experienced. This is the important part. At the end of the day, this is what matters. Not the underlying tech.
With that said, the game felt super lonely without Liz around during certain sections, so at least they did that part right.
I agree with that, however, that is a logical solution to the money, but not to the salt or health or ammo, so she'd still be doing that stuff anyway.
I generally agree with this. My biggest disappointment with Elizabeth is that I frankly expected her to be a lot more vocal when just wandering the environment. I was expecting more incidental dialogue but there wasn't very much of it.
WrenchNinja
Member
Yeah, she is a joke. I dont know why people are raving about her AI.
Nah, the game just rebalances a bit.
By periodically throwing you money, the vending machine items can be slightly more expensive. By periodically throwing you ammo and salt, enemies can be a little more bullet-spongey. By periodically throwing you health, enemies can do slightly more damage. She doesn't actually make a difference, the game is just balanced "harder" so she can "help" you.
I had a horrible moment with her shortly after getting her and engaging in the first bit of combat.
After she initially freaks out over booker killing people, there's a segment of walking through a non hostile zone on the boardwalk. I went in an ice cream shop and stole from the cashier, he attacked me and I cut his head off. I murdered all the police that showed up, and Elizabeth casually asked if Booker had a woman in his life with no infliction whatsoever about what happened. I mentioned that it would have helped a lot for a Spec Ops type dialoge in the OT as well.
The moment viewtifuljc happened to me as well, happily talks about picking a lock clashing with what just happened story wise. They had a far way to go with making her seem like an actual person, even without odd moments like these. She is way too quiet during the many bouts of roaming around to scavenge.
I cant imagine doing a handyman fights with her being a target.
disappeared
Banned
I thought Elizabeth was fine. She complemented the journey, she made the story that much more touching, and her mannerisms throughout the world were charming. I've never seen another AI in a game take its environment so well. She sits in chairs, leans against walls, looks into nooks and crannies for lock picks, etc. She's a great example of an AI you don't think of as being an AI all the time. There are definitely a few quirks here and there, but it's not something that ever upset me.
And yeah, the Tangled comparison is appropriate. And that move was phenomenal so yeah.
And yeah, the Tangled comparison is appropriate. And that move was phenomenal so yeah.
There is one great sequence in Finktown that should represent the level of quality I expected.
If you spared Slate in the Hall of Heroes, you meet him again in the Prison. At which point you can shoot him. If you do that, you hear Elizabeth gasp, and say : "I guess that's what he wanted". That's exectly the kind of reactivity I wanted out of her. Because, as someone mentioned, outside of the story moment, she is a teleporting vending machine.
This annoyed the hell out of me as well. It was really jarring.
Oh her idle animations, hell her animations in general were great. She was a joy to be around throughout the game, had no problem with her being there.
My problem was all those 20 minute videos we got before the game's release talking about her "revolutionary AI". Um, what game were those people playing?
I loved the banter in combat and out. I loved calling for tears, but story wise, if they wanted to, there's no reason that Booker couldn't have been able to use them or direct them somehow. Same with "needing" her to lockpick.
More importantly, I felt that her being there and no enemy ever interacting with her was kind of contrary to the whole story, isn't it? Not saying it'd make sense for people to shoot at her, but no Ico "Stop her from getting kidnapped!" thing in any battle, ever? Kind of jarring in a narrative sense, making her inclusion as a partner by your side make even less sense, if I'm being honest.
I cared about her. She was a great character. It doesn't mean that I find all the talk about how great her AI was kind of silly, since it's very easy to liken her to any other AI partner that doesn't get in the way. I guess because there's so few of them like that though that it makes her stand out all the more?
Hobbestetrician
Member
Except, too often they would yell this at each other when I opened a tear and there was no action or enemies to be found.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Chasing a single Handyman along a skyline would've been a very cool moment.
I wasn't too bothered by that. I don't expect they'd get the tone of a soundbite right everytime.
spandexmonkey
Banned
Her disgust at melee executions actually made me stop doing them.
Papercuts moment above was much more on the nose for me too.
This. I don't understand people wanting her to -not- teleport when she's on the other side of Columbia, or -not- keep pace with you, or -not- stay out of your way. If the game was a 1:1 analogue of reality, it would not be fun. It would be frustrating.
The way they handled her is rather elegant. She provides warmth, she provides incidental dialogue, she provides character; she provides health, ammo, salts, money; she changes the terrain, and she does all of this without ever inconveniencing the player, without ever breaking the gameplay or narrative flow.
She is what every AI companion should aspire to be, before they attempt to be anything else. And I say this as someone who was not hyped for her in any way, shape or form prior to the game. She was, how to say, a most pleasant surprise.
Hobbestetrician
Member
Especially when the television commercial for the game has her about to be hanged by a group of people and you swoop in for the rescue. No one is aware she exists at any point in the game.
Black Door
Banned
Would have been nice if you could pick up the guys head, hang it over some ice cream and show it to Liz yelling, "two scoops?" and she reacts
V The thread title is so ambiguous that it doesn't spoil any of the plot, unless you honestly thought Liz was going to grab a couple of machine guns and cap some civvies five minutes after you met her
RustyNails
Member
So basically, videogame spoilers in thread titles now. I haven't even bought the game and now I can already expect what can happen and what not from characters. I didn't read your op, but fuck this thread.
I havent played with the game but your point about her not saying much is a godsend.
You guys remember white knight chronicles? That was friggen awful, your party members are talking to each other all the time and always saying the exact same thing.
"HEEEY HEEEEEYY WAIT UP SPEEDY!"
You guys remember white knight chronicles? That was friggen awful, your party members are talking to each other all the time and always saying the exact same thing.
"HEEEY HEEEEEYY WAIT UP SPEEDY!"
Neuromancer
Member
One pretty incongruous moment I ran into was when we went to (near end game sequence spoiler)
her mom's mausoleum in the graveyard and she didn't have a single thing to say about it. It was super weird. The problem was I hadn't done a story beat near Comstock tower yet and I guess they just didn't plan for that possibility.
This too. It's pretty weird how they missed the fact so many would go there first considering the game has so much emphasis on searching all around the areas before going to your destination.
Hobbestetrician
Member
Had the same thing happen to me and also found it strange.
They certainly haven't been shy about voicing their struggles with Elizabeth throughout development. Levine has said a number of times that the beach scene alone took them ages to figure out.
Yeah I completely agree about the beach part. I felt a little disappointed when I realized I was just going from activity spot to activity spot to see her animations.
I think the saddest part is that IS so complicated to get just those few things happening. There were smart people working for years on this, and Elizabeth is all we got. Makes me kind of pessimistic about the near term future of game AI.