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[Alexios]

Yeah, her mechanics are stupid (you could just as well simply keep finding keys like in the beginning instead of lockpicks for her to go through her animations, and her supplying you in combat is silly) and annoying (I want to get all the money available but don't like having to stop for her throwing animation, or having her activate certain parts of the level for no reason) and her bad facial animations also ruin scenes supposed to be emotional. I've stopped playing for now, I'm not feeling the game at all as it's just arena battles and story scenes, no real involvement otherwise, it never feels like exploring or making decisions either.

They should have watched Disney's Tangled to see how to do a character like Elizabeth, locked up with her special powers and for the first time seeing the world, actually well.

 

[shinobi602]

Hell no, she always gave me ammo, health and salts. And being able to bring up patriots or cover or rocket/machine guns was very useful.

 

[Facism]

"Booker! More Munnay!"

 

[betty swollocks]

In the wider context of the story, as mentioned elsewhere here I thought she was great, needed to be around and I missed her hugely when she wasn't. I enjoyed her little animations, even if they did repeat and the moments where there was depth to the interactions (scripted) were spaced well for me. It all flowed nicely.

For me the most impressive part of her was how she always took off ahead of me, always in view and what, 90% of the time knew exactly where I was intending to go.

 

[AngryMoth]

Can't even shoot her, what a shame.

It's a testament to the game that I hadn't even considered what happens if you try shoot her until now, and I usually do experiment to find out how a game handles you shooting AI partners

 

[WrenchNinja]

She doesnt get in the way because enemies completely ignore her. How is that impressive? I used to be able carry med packs and mana tonics with me in BioShock. But hey, now I can just wait for her to randomly show up near me to give me some. Or ammo, suddenly there is a whole gun that shows up with her that the enemies werent using so I can replenish my current weapon. Guess that was one of their solutions to the two weapon limit.

Then you have the tears, well I guess its nice that she opens them when you tell her to but it would be more impressive if her "AI" just opened the most appropriate tear herself. Oh but she's good for lockpicking, after I order her to do it.

Personally, if she actively did play a part in fights and wasnt just a replacement for something else, it would have been a lot more interesting. Hell, Ashley in RE4 is way more effective, if you aim in her direction, she'll duck, she'll always try to stay behind you when moving, she'll stop when you need her to, she'll hide when you tell her to, and she's vulnerable, so she's an actual character in battles and not just this thing that appears out of nowhere to give you stuff that is invincible.

 

[Hobbestetrician]

They certainly haven't been shy about voicing their struggles with Elizabeth throughout development. Levine has said a number of times that the beach scene alone took them ages to figure out.

The problem with the beach scene is that it has absolutely no bearing on the game at all. It requires the player to really just stand around and watch her interact with stuff, stuff that most easily miss because there is no indication that she will interact at different points. Instead, the game is telling you to get to the airship (I think) and most aren't going to sit around waiting for Elizabeth to watch people work out.

That whole scene is nothing more than a tech demo that has little relevance to everything afterwards.

Hell no, she always gave me ammo, health and salts. And being able to bring up patriots or cover or rocket/machine guns was very useful.

All things the player has to actually do by pressing a button.

 

[Hex]

I think the game would have been very mundane without her.
If Mark or any of the crew are reading though, Bioshock Infinite the Director's Cut for PS4 and MS Next

 

[CitizenCope]

I'm far from done with the game but after getting excited to finaly meet up with her the game hasn't changed much at all. After playing the first couple of hours and being a little disappointed I was hoping it would all change when she came around. It's the same but now there is a girl cowering in the corner.
Far from done so jury is still out.

 

[HueyFreeman]

Oddly enough my only complaint with Elizabeth is that

Spoiler

you didn't have to protect her more. I felt a very protective instinct toward her, but it was never developed as she's never in any danger.

Otherwise I really enjoyed the interactions with her as an AI companion. Also, if she wasn't there in combat

Spoiler

there would be no tears and you would get your ass handed to you for lack of ammo and supplies.

So she serves quite a distinct purpose, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

 

[Zeliard]

The problem with the beach scene is that it has absolutely no bearing on the game at all. It requires the player to really just stand around and watch her interact with stuff, stuff that most easily miss because there is no indication that she will interact at different points. Instead, the game is telling you to get to the airship (I think) and most aren't going to sit around waiting for Elizabeth to watch people work out.

That whole scene is nothing more than a tech demo that has little relevance to everything afterwards.

Well, I think the reason they spent so much time on the beach scene is that it was so relatively complex that getting Elizabeth to function properly there meant that it would be more feasible to fit her into other parts of the game.

I do appreciate on some level that they inserted things most players will just miss completely. But if you are just going around trying to get Elizabeth to trigger various things, it's going to inevitably feel artificial.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I like her actually. But I didn't believe in Levine hype for her AI in combat.

But is just fun how she gives you telephone change in the coolest way posible.

 

[jediyoshi]

Personally, if she actively did play a part in fights and wasnt just a replacement for something else, it would have been a lot more interesting.

I could not conceive of a more maddening thing mechanically than having to care for an NPC during combat. I'd take an underwater stealth follow mission before that.

 

[Acorn]

It's a testament to the game that I hadn't even considered what happens if you try shoot her until now, and I usually do experiment to find out how a game handles you shooting AI partners

I do the same. Usually all that happens is "Hey stop doing that" or it points your gun downwards.

 

[LumpOfCole]

I don't get why you guys think Elizabeth didn't fully integrate well enough into the enviroHEY I FOUND SOME MONEY

 

[Neiteio]

She doesnt get in the way because enemies completely ignore her. How is that impressive? I used to be able carry med packs and mana tonics with me in BioShock. But hey, now I can just wait for her to randomly show up near me to give me some. Or ammo, suddenly there is a whole gun that shows up with her that the enemies werent using so I can replenish my current weapon. Guess that was one of their solutions to the two weapon limit.

Then you have the tears, well I guess its nice that she opens them when you tell her to but it would be more impressive if her "AI" just opened the most appropriate tear herself. Oh but she's good for lockpicking, after I order her to do it.

Personally, if she actively did play a part in fights and wasnt just a replacement for something else, it would have been a lot more interesting. Hell, Ashley in RE4 is way more effective, if you aim in her direction, she'll duck, she'll always try to stay behind you when moving, she'll stop when you need her to, she'll hide when you tell her to, and she's vulnerable, so she's an actual character in battles and not just this thing that appears out of nowhere to give you stuff that is invincible.

- Enemies ignoring her isn't impressive in itself. Nor is Elizabeth never taking damage. What's impressive is the designer had the foresight to know the game would be frustrating and not fun if you had to constantly babysit her in a game that's at its best playing fast and offensive rather than distracted and defensive. And the fact she keeps up with you throughout is equally convenient.

- The entire game is balanced around her occasionally giving you health, salts and ammo. Money, too -- in a way it rewards you for taking your time and not just rushing from combat zone to combat zone.

- If she opened tears herself, that wouldn't be fun, because you wouldn't be controlling the battlefield. The whole reason tears are fun is because you can change the environment when and where you want. You have to be strategic with it, insofar as you can only utilize one tear at a time. And that makes it fun, as well.

- She doesn't get in the way. And unlike Ashley, she's not baggage. Someone like Ashley would be a detriment to an experience such as this.

 

[DatDude]

I like her actually. But I didn't believe in Levine hype for her AI in combat.

But is just fun how she gives you telephone change in the coolest way posible.

Name better AI partner combats that stay with you for practically the entire narrative?

There are barely any, and the few that are out there are pretty piss poor.

Elizabeth isn't EXTRAORDINARY. But she does quite a few things well..especially since you traverse practically the whole game with her as well.

She's a stepping stone if anything. An I can appreciate that.

 

[JWong]

Didn't you feel like you wanted to protect her? /eidos

 

[Neuromancer]

I'd prefer that these opinion threads be kept in the OT or spoiler OT so that people like me can get an opportunity to form our own opinions before finishing the game.

How is a thread title is going to prevent you from forming your own opinion?

So basically, videogame spoilers in thread titles now. I haven't even bought the game and now I can already expect what can happen and what not from characters. I didn't read your op, but fuck this thread.

Calling the title a spoiler is a pretty big stretch. I hope you're kidding.

 

[Meia]

Oddly enough my only complaint with Elizabeth is that

Spoiler

you didn't have to protect her more. I felt a very protective instinct toward her, but it was never developed as she's never in any danger.

Otherwise I really enjoyed the interactions with her as an AI companion. Also, if she wasn't there in combat

Spoiler

there would be no tears and you would get your ass handed to you for lack of ammo and supplies.

So she serves quite a distinct purpose, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

There's a reason there's a city flying in the sky.

Spoiler

There couldn't be a reason why Booker, upon arriving into the city for the first time, can suddenly open Tears?

When we're trying to come up with video game reasons for her inclusion in the game, then she's not being handled correctly probably.

 

[Trent Strong]

Elizabeth is just one of many problems in this mediocre game.

 

[pj]

This. I don't understand people wanting her to -not- teleport when she's on the other side of Columbia, or -not- keep pace with you, or -not- stay out of your way. If the game was a 1:1 analogue of reality, it would not be fun. It would be frustrating.

The way they handled her is rather elegant. She provides warmth, she provides incidental dialogue, she provides character; she provides health, ammo, salts, money; she changes the terrain, and she does all of this without ever inconveniencing the player, without ever breaking the gameplay or narrative flow.

She is what every AI companion should aspire to be, before they attempt to be anything else. And I say this as someone who was not hyped for her in any way, shape or form prior to the game. She was, how to say, a most pleasant surprise.

The mechanics of her existence are great. As I've said, she's the perfect helper bot.

And actually one of the things I think she was lacking most was incidental dialogue. Why didn't she comment about the environments? Walk into an area, she could say "I wonder what this used to be", or see a dead guy in a booth at a restaurant, "Waiter, there's a dead man in my soup!". Even returning to old areas could have stuff like "Weren't we just here?"

I get that there is a balancing act to keep her from being overbearing, but she is too far on the side of shushing up

 

[Neiteio]

There's a reason there's a city flying in the sky.

Spoiler

There couldn't be a reason why Booker, upon arriving into the city for the first time, can suddenly open Tears?

When we're trying to come up with video game reasons for her inclusion in the game, then she's not being handled correctly probably.

Why are we playing in a richly detailed environment instead of a room with blank walls? Those richly detailed walls don't serve any gameplay purpose, goddammit!

 

[Sanjay]

Instead, what I got was Alyx who can spot lockpicks and toss coins.

Sounds great to me. I wish all AI would be like Alyx.

 

[elektrixx]

But don't you think she's really pretty? I'm in love.

Now that some time has passed, it's a race to see who can jump on the "I don't like Bioshock Infinite" bandwagon. Probably the same people that pretended they didn't like GTA IV.

 

[Bossniak]

if it wasn't for Elizabeth I would of missed a voxophone.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

How come everyone's forgetting the combat tears?

Although those were kind of pointless too, you might as well have had these objects simply exist in the environment.

 

[Acorn]

Didn't you feel like you wanted to protect her? /eidos

I know this in jest but i actually did story wise. Elizabeth was awesome.

 

[Cartman86]

The weird mood changes for opening locks was weird sure. I'm more interested in how I don't think I ever experienced any unique animations/scenes. The stuff that Levine said they had to design that was purely context sensitive. Like in one of those demos where she takes a Lincoln head and wears it. The only context stuff I remember was pointing out lock picks. Maybe i'm wrong and it was incredibly seamless. Anyone remember any context stuff?

 

[HueyFreeman]

There's a reason there's a city flying in the sky.

Spoiler

There couldn't be a reason why Booker, upon arriving into the city for the first time, can suddenly open Tears?

When we're trying to come up with video game reasons for her inclusion in the game, then she's not being handled correctly probably.

Holy shit - have you played this game at all? She's the concept around which the entire game is based. You guys are arguing for her to have been excluded from the game entirely? Why are people trying to rewrite this game? If you want to write bioshock fan fiction, go write some. This is the game ken Levine and irrational made, please play it and comment on it, not some speculative version of what you think it should be. It's getting old.

 

[MvmntInGrn]

I think the main problem is that they tried to create a dynamic system where emotional moments would occur organically, but it cannot compete with traditional scripting, and I don't particularly see the point in trying. All that work especially seems wasted in a game as linear as this, with so few reasons to replay. I don't really care that Elizabeth will react differently next time I play, because if I ever do replay it, it will be far enough in the future that I will have forgotten what she did last time anyway.

Why the hell not? You said yourself she is inoffensive. Also if it is EVER going to work it is going to be in a game as linear as this.

I enjoyed having her around. Yeah she got used to the gore and death a tad too quickly (the game tries to justify this after the incident at the ticket booth but it isn't enough) but she is a helpful sidekick and I disagree that her limited interactions make anything look ridiculous (just my perception I guess).

Instead of walking into a room and her sometimes wandering around and looking at a banana, and sometimes wandering around and looking at a desk, I'd prefer that every time she gasp in horror at the dead bodies and menacing message written on the wall in blood.

That sounds so annoying it would almost borderline the feeling of babysitting the game tries, and succeeds, in avoiding.

How come everyone's forgetting the combat tears?

Although those were kind of pointless too, you might as well have had these objects simply exist in the environment.

Hardly. They provided a choice. You could only have one active at a time and many could be activated from afar.

 

[DatDude]

Elizabeth is just one of many problems in this mediocre game.

I wish all games were as mediocre as Infinite.

 

[Neuromancer]

Walk into an area, she could say "I wonder what this used to be", or see a dead guy in a booth at a restaurant, "Waiter, there's a dead man in my soup!".

Haha I wish you'd been a writer for this game.

 

[Meia]

There was one scene I got with Elizabeth that I never got before playing through it for a second time.

Spoiler

As you're making your way to Comstock house, and you fight a big group of Vox outside an area where you have to go, after a grueling fight, Elizabeth goes over to a bush, plucks a rose from it, goes over to a dead civilian laying in the street, and asks something like "do you think the people asked for something like this?". She then moves the hair out of the perosn's eyes, puts one arm over his chest, then puts the rose in the other hand and puts that over his chest.

Things like that make her a great character, and really add feeling to her and the game. In this way, I can see a more important reason for her to bonded to you. But moments like this happen maybe once in the entire game(and are easily missed apparently), and her inclusion in the game's systems everywhere else is so meh, that I still think, overall, she was handled poorly. Way more could, and should, have been done with her.


Though maybe that's just a sign that I enjoyed her so much?

 

[thumb]

I think we need to carefully distinguish between Elizabeth's quality relative to other companion AIs in video games and Elizabeth's quality as a companion in Bioshock Infinite.

I see a lot of comments on her not getting in the way and not needing to be rescued, etc. These are comments about relative quality, as they highlight ways in which she could have been worse. But I think the case for her has to be based on her absolute value, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. Tears were carefully controlled and only available in specific areas. This made them feel like a property of the location rather than Elizabeth. Assistance with supplies was quasi-random and couldn't be depended on. Lock picking was…okay? I also appreciated her incidental actions, but I feel they didn't go far enough.

 

[Neuromancer]

Like in one of those demos where she takes a Lincoln head and wears it.

Are you serious. That sounds hilarious.

 

[Hex]

Elizabeth is just one of many problems in this mediocre game.

Yeah, no.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.

 

[Meia]

Holy shit - have you played this game at all? She's the concept around which the entire game is based. You guys are arguing for her to have been excluded from the game entirely? Why are people trying to rewrite this game? If you want to write bioshock fan fiction, go write some. This is the game ken Levine and irrational made, please play it and comment on it, not some speculative version of what you think it should be. It's getting old.

No, I'm saying her inclusion was so incidental in the game, that while nice, really served little purpose. Especially considering the import we were told she was going to have in any media or interviews before the game launched. That's all.


She breathed life into the world, but this isn't revolutionary and could have been handled the same way other games in the past have with little to no difference overall. That's the problem.

 

[DatDude]

But don't you think she's really pretty? I'm in love.

Now that some time has passed, it's a race to see who can jump on the "I don't like Bioshock Infinite" bandwagon. Probably the same people that pretended they didn't like GTA IV.

Since the narrative and writing are pretty spotless of course there going to attack the only weak spot there is in Infinite which is the combat/ai

Of course these negative comments will be exaggerated more so because of how highly praised Infinite has been

 

[SuperEpicGuy]

Idk, she seemed to be a great ai to me. Dynamic interactions with the environment make her a much more believable character than in almost any other game with a partner ai. Some examples are when she says "You don't expect me to follow you" when I entered the men's washroom or cross her arms and put a grumpy face when I entered the women's washroom made her one of the best companion ai I have ever seen. Her throwing supplies was also greatly appreciated.

 

[Derrick01]

I wish all games were as mediocre as Infinite.

They already are. All the focus on story shit over gameplay.

 

[DatDude]

Are you serious. That sounds hilarious.

Except that would conflict with the plot since the game glorifies the killing of Lincoln and praises John Wilkes Booth.

 

[DatDude]

They already are. All the focus on story shit over gameplay.

Fuck gameplay.

I can play a game once, and never return to it now matter how good the gameplay is.

The narrative and the atmosphere/general world will always bring me back.

 

[Papercuts]

Are you serious. That sounds hilarious.

It's from the e3 demo. watch it if you want to be depressed.

 

[shinobi602]

All things the player has to actually do by pressing a button.

I didn't know it was difficult to press a button.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

Hardly. They provided a choice. You could only have one active at a time and many could be activated from afar.

The only time that might be true is if you had 2 different bots to activate, which wasn't the case the cast majority of the time. What's the point of having health packs in one corner of the map and a rail gun in the other?

 

[pj]

Why the hell not? You said yourself she is inoffensive. Also if it is EVER going to work it is going to be in a game as linear as this.

I enjoyed having her around. Yeah she got used to the gore and death a tad too quickly (the game tries to justify this after the incident at the ticket booth but it isn't enough) but she is a helpful sidekick and I disagree that her limited interactions make anything look ridiculous (just my perception I guess).

I guess the why not is that it was a lot of effort for not much result.

That sounds so annoying it would almost borderline the feeling of babysitting the game tries, and succeeds, in avoiding.

What I meant was that each time you play the game, there will be a certain line of dialogue tied to a certain bloody wall in a certain room. Not that every time you see any bloody wall she says the same line of dialogue.

What irrational did was certainly not the easy route, but I'm not convinced it was the better route.

 

[FloatOn]

rofl....

I guess Yorda is still my fav AI companion even tho she doesn't do much (keeps getting kidnapped by shadows) she felt more alive then any other AI companions i have ever met.

Agreed. See this thread for more on this:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=532833

 

[Deleted member 30609]

33% of the way through the game spoilers (docks / before Finkton)

Spoiler

Worse, immediately after Elizabeth swears that she hates Booker and will not cooperate with him again, there's a locked door not 5 minutes later and if you ask her to unlock it, it's right back to shuck and jive smalltalk with Booker--the game could have learned from Spec Ops that contextualizing the character's relationships and emotional state in incidental dialogue is just as important as doing it in plot-critical dialogue, even if it means spending more time in the recording booth.

There's an outrageous example of this right before the final few encounters in the game.

somber, bleak, somber, bleak SURE THING BOOKER TOO EASY GIVE ME A CHALLENGE

 

[Derrick01]

Fuck gameplay.

I can play a game once, and never return to it now matter how good the gameplay is.

The narrative and the atmosphere/general world will always bring me back.

Did you accidentally mix that up? How does a story that you already saw bring you back over gameplay that, if good enough, can encourage replayability and experimentation?

Actually I think I'm afraid to hear what your answer is going to be.