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Is Euthanasia painless?

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A

Arrogant Bastard

Banned
Before I delve into this topic I think it is important to state my 'prejudice', I'm against capital punishment. With that said, I do not want this thread to turn into a debate concerning capital punishment per say. My reasoning for this should be clear, I'm not trying to discern whether or not it is somehow moral, legal, or ethical. That is not what I want this thread to be about. I'm more than happy to discuss the merits or lack thereof, concerning euthanasia and/or capital punishment; but, I would prefer to do it in another thread.

Perhaps this is simply my ignorance on the subject of euthanasia. Please note though, that I'm using this term in a rather incorrect manner. I'm not merely referring to the practice of ending a life because of a pain or what have you. I would like to refer to it in a much broader sense; that being, the supposed intentional and humane taking of a life. If someone can think of a better term, let me know. I would be disingenuous if I said that the recent case in Oklahoma didn't bring this up. Clearly it did, but it made me wonder about the entire practice.

How do we know that execution is painless, even when it is carried out as 'humanely' as possible? How do we know that our beloved animal companions are passing away without pain? Like I said, I accept my ignorance on the subject; but, how can we be certain on either account.
 
P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Depends on the method, I guess.

I think the most common way of euthanizing people now, without drugs, is an 'escape bag' where the individual inhales an inert gas, usually nitrogen or helium, and then eventually passes out and dies. The inert gas lacks oxygen so you die but you don't get the normal struggles and reactions that come with CO2 buildup. Aside from your own worries, it's quite painless.

To answer your last question, I'm not sure since I don't know how animals are killed. If it's something like an injection, usually they may take some time die but once chemicals reach the brain they'll simply lose consciousness anyway. I don't think there is much pain and if there's any, it's (ideally) not long lasting.

Sleep well, pups ;_;7
 
U

Uncle

Member
I'd guess it depends on the method. The one euthanasia shown on the documnetary by Pratchett (can't remember the name right now) sure as shit didn't look painless to me.
 
A

Arrogant Bastard

Banned
Yah, but that is kinda of the entire point. Even in the 'best' of cases, even in the 'best' of methods, how can you possibly know that the death is supposedly painless?
 
B

Bear

Member
It depends how it's done. One of the more common method is lethal injection, which is usually preceded by sedatives and a muscle relaxant. I wouldn't call an induced cardiac arrest "painless", but with the right combination of drugs it can be quick and involves relatively little pain.

As for how we can quantify that, it's possible to monitor the underlying physiological responses for different methods. You could look at initial changes in brain activity and how long it takes to shut down, for example. Appearances aren't a good indication of pain - a heart attack can be excruciatingly painful but it doesn't look nearly as bad to an observer as an almost instant beheading.
 
S

Septimius

Junior Member
Mineshaft_Gap said:
It brings on many changes.
Click to expand...

<3

Arrogant Bastard said:
Yah, but that is kinda of the entire point. Even in the 'best' of cases, even in the 'best' of methods, how can you possibly know that the death is supposedly painless?
Click to expand...

How can you know what pain is, man? How can you, like, feel pain?

Well, I was there when they euthanized my cat. He was already anesthetized. Then they injected just a much lager dose of the anesthetic. We know that people under anesthesia doesn't feel pain, right? We can cut people open and they don't wake up saying "I remember the pain". A larger dose of the anesthetic sedates the respiratory system. The brain is starved of oxygen, and the being passes on. The last gasps of air sure are hard to witness, but it's a reaction. Then it's over.


There's also a fitting zen story about this:
When Eshun, the Zen nun, was past sixty and about to leave this world, she asked some monks to pile up wood in the yard.

Seating herself firmly in the center of the funeral pyre, she had it set fire around the edges.

"O nun!" shouted one monk, "is it hot in there?"

"Such a matter would concern only a stupid person like yourself," answered Eshun.

The flames arose, and she passed away.​
 
Jaffaboy

Jaffaboy

Member
I always assumed it's like a general anaesthetic, so not painful at all. It's like being forced to sleep.

I'm totally for euthanasia for humans by the way, as long as it's their choice. I know I'd want to be given the choice if I'm suffering as much as I've seen others suffer with stuff like terminal cancer.
 
A

Arrogant Bastard

Banned
Bear said:
It depends how it's done. One of the more common method is lethal injection, which is usually preceded by sedatives and a muscle relaxant. I wouldn't call an induced cardiac arrest "painless", but with the right combination of drugs it can be quick and involves relatively little pain.

As for how we can quantify that, it's possible to monitor the underlying physiological responses for different methods. You could look at initial changes in brain activity and how long it takes to shut down, for example. Appearances aren't a good indication of pain - a heart attack can be excruciatingly painful but it doesn't look nearly as bad to an observer as an almost instant beheading.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information; so if I'm to understand this right, please correct me if I'm being a blockhead. This is something that we have extensively studied, the 'underlying responses' to chemical agents. Right? Is there literature to back this up?
 
S

Septimius

Junior Member
Arrogant Bastard said:
Thanks for the information; so if I'm to understand this right, please correct me if I'm being a blockhead. This is something that we have extensively studied, the 'underlying responses' to chemical agents. Right? Is there literature to back this up?
Click to expand...

Anesthetics is a very well known medical field. We know what it sedates at what doses. We also have a huge track record of people having had their chest spread wide open with no pain to remember.
 
B

Bear

Member
Arrogant Bastard said:
Thanks for the information; so if I'm to understand this right, please correct me if I'm being a blockhead. This is something that we have extensively studied, the 'underlying responses' to chemical agents. Right? Is there literature to back this up?
Click to expand...

I don't know how extensively it's been studied, honestly, I'm just vaguely familiar with a few of the physiological effects and know that they can be used to measure pain more accurately. I read about that particular method (brain activity) in a study I read years ago about the effectiveness of stunning livestock.
 
P

Pluto

Member
Arrogant Bastard said:
Yah, but that is kinda of the entire point. Even in the 'best' of cases, even in the 'best' of methods, how can you possibly know that the death is supposedly painless?
Click to expand...
If we use painkillers for example. In fact, many humans die from indirect euthanasia, when people are really sick and in pain getting rid of the pain becomes more important than keeping them alive a little bit longer, so the painkillers are cranked up even if that shortens the live. This is often true for cancer patients.

I also don't think death itself is painful, what can be painful is the condition that leads to death, a tumor, an injury etc. but if you look at things like carbon monoxide poisoning for example it's absolutely painless, that's why it kills entire families in their sleep.
 
S

Septimius

Junior Member
Arrogant Bastard said:
Do we use those exact same drugs every time?
Click to expand...

I know virtually nothing on the field, but there's never been a case of someone having been under anesthesia but having felt pain. From chloroform to ether to various stuff we use today, they all do the same thing. They're not paralyzing muscles. You can't have sleep paralysis with anesthetics, since they aren't muscle paralyzing. It's just sleeping deeper and deeper until you don't even breathe. At that point, the brain seizes to function, which should be barred evidence that there's no consciousness to experience the pain.
 
D

dejay

Banned
Jaffaboy said:
I always assumed it's like a general anaesthetic, so not painful at all.
Click to expand...

This. Apart from the extremely rare cases of people being improperly anaesthetised and supposedly being able to feel their surgery, normally you can be placed peacefully into unconsciousness and have all sorts of body parts removed. If you get anaesthetised a bit more than normal you simply die without waking up.

As ponpo says, some gases are very effective. I've heard carbon monoxide can be a pleasant death and the body is left looking "healthy", with a flush in the cheeks. Modern cars aren't really good for it though. I really don't know why it's so hard for authorities to kill someone peacefully.
 
M

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
Arrogant Bastard said:
Do we use those exact same drugs every time?
Click to expand...

Different drugs in different amounts for different uses. Anesthesia is a very exacting art; when you pay an obscene amount of money for surgery, a large chunk of that is going to the anesthesiologist, who is one of the most highly paid and trained physicians in the business. Veterinary anesthesiologists are equally good at their jobs, as surgery on dogs and cats requires extremely precise amounts of anesthetic and careful monitoring. They use the same drugs to knock an animal out before euthanizing it. In the same way a dog doesn't react or remember the trauma of hip replacement surgery, he also isn't aware or able to feel the euthanizing drugs stopping his heart.

To the absolute best of our ability to know it, euthanized animals don't feel a thing if the procedure is done correctly. People love their pets tremendously, and so do veterinarians. If there was a hint that euthanasia procedures were not as painless as possible, veterinarians would take action. I have unfortunately had to put many aging pet cats to sleep, and I have never been under the impression any of them had any form of awareness or sensation after the anesthetic went in.
 
P

Piggus

Member
Jaffaboy said:
I always assumed it's like a general anaesthetic, so not painful at all. It's like being forced to sleep.

I'm totally for euthanasia for humans by the way, as long as it's their choice. I know I'd want to be given the choice if I'm suffering as much as I've seen others suffer with stuff like terminal cancer.
Click to expand...

Legal in Oregon. :)
 
C

C.Dark.DN

Banned
When my cat was put to sleep the first shot knocked her unconscious and the second did the deed.

Not sure what that's like, but after having surgery anesthesia first with maybe a benzo before would be the best way.

Post #3 sounds scary
 
W

Whelan

Banned
Saw a documentary Terry Pratchett did on the subject. An old guy who had travelled over to Scandinavia to see a euthanasia specialist with his wife had his actual death recorded. It did not seem painless to me. Guy started shitting it and making strange noises as soon as he took the 'cocktail'.


Fuck that.
 
D

dejay

Banned
Whelan said:
Saw a documentary Terry Pratchett did on the subject. An old guy who had travelled over to Scandinavia to see a euthanasia specialist with his wife had his actual death recorded. It did not seem painless to me. Guy started shitting it and making strange noises as soon as he took the 'cocktail'.


Fuck that.
Click to expand...

It's not like nature's full of pleasant deaths for most of us.
 
M

maximrace

Member
Here in Belgium people first get a sedative and afterwards a lethal injection. From what I have heard it doesn't hurt and happens quick
 
Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
Septimius said:
There's also a fitting zen story about this:
When Eshun, the Zen nun, was past sixty and about to leave this world, she asked some monks to pile up wood in the yard.

Seating herself firmly in the center of the funeral pyre, she had it set fire around the edges.

"O nun!" shouted one monk, "is it hot in there?"

"Such a matter would concern only a stupid person like yourself," answered Eshun.

The flames arose, and she passed away.​
Click to expand...

This is great, but the bolded especially makes me laugh. Geez, no need to be rude Eshun!
 
K

kami_sama

Member
I think one of the most painless methods of euthanasia is using helium. You suffocate, but because there's no CO2 buildup you don't react as if you were. Your body simply shuts down without noticing.
 
R

Raiden

Banned
Whelan said:
Saw a documentary Terry Pratchett did on the subject. An old guy who had travelled over to Scandinavia to see a euthanasia specialist with his wife had his actual death recorded. It did not seem painless to me. Guy started shitting it and making strange noises as soon as he took the 'cocktail'.


Fuck that.
Click to expand...

Every single person who dies defecates themselves. Your muscles lose their tension.


All muscles ..
 
U

Uncle

Member
Raiden said:
Every single person who dies defecates themselves. Your muscles lose their tension.


All muscles ..
Click to expand...

I don't think he meant that. It kinda looks like the old man in question is being strangled and he is fighting to breathe.
 
F

Famassu

Member
Uncle said:
I don't think he meant that. It kinda looks like the old man in question is being strangled and he is fighting to breathe.
Click to expand...
He is fighting to breathe for a short while, but that is propably harder to watch than it is actually painful for the one who is dying. When your brains don't get enough oxygen, delirium kicks in pretty quickly and you lose consciousness not too long after rather than feeling some kind of insufferable pain that you'd think people would feel when depraved of oxygen.

There might be some panic-y feelings at first when you feel you aren't getting enough oxygen, at which point it might look painful when one is gasping for air, but that quickly passes. Like is said & shown in the documentary, you fall into a kind of sleep-like state pretty quickly and at that point you don't feel a thing anymore, and even before it you aren't feeling actual pain.
 
A

Aiii

So not worth it
Legal euthanasia done by a doctor is pretty much the same idea as putting a pet to sleep.

You close your eyes, you never wake up. That simple, painless, humane.

Basically what the doctor does first is give you an injection of medicine that almost immediately puts you in a coma, then he gives you drugs that stops your breathing, causing your heart to stop. At least, that's what they do in The Netherlands.
 
L

Lothar

Banned
Why are pets treated better than humans in this area? It's humane to not let pets suffer and put them to sleep, why is it okay to have people suffer? Is there any good arguments against Euthanansia? I don't see how there could be.

Right when you find out that you have some terminal illness, the doctor should give you an option of setting up an appointment for you to be put to sleep.
 
P

Photolysis

Banned
It's possible to euthanize someone in a painless manner. It's also possible for it to be painful and drawn-out if a bad method is chosen, or it is performed poorly.

Let's take suffocation with an inert gas for example. Those who have voluntarily subjected themselves to the effects (obviously stopping before it became lethal) have reported it being completely painless; you just become light-headed and eventually pass out. That's actually what can make it so dangerous if you're accidentally subjected to it, such as a loss of pressurization with an aircraft, or if there's a leak.

If you anesthetize someone with a cocktail of drugs then there's no conscious perception. Even if they then struggle for breath because they've been given a paralytic or something, this is an unconscious automatic reaction.

I appreciate you don't want to derail this onto the topic of execution, but really it would be extremely easy to perform them painlessly, and without the cocktail of drugs (and the issue of using untested/inadequate ones because of usage/import limitations). Nitrogen is cheap and plentiful.
 
S

seanoff

Member
my brother was basically euthanised.

he had cancer and was basically given a GA. The doctor told us it would most likely kill him. We had a discussion, he was going to die anyway. so he had the GA.

the doctor was entirely correct, it killed him. painlessly. he didn't know he was getting the GA so he had no fear, it was just another needle.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Arrogant Bastard said:
How do you know that though?
Click to expand...
Logically, if you can sedate animals/people, perform surgery, and then have them wake up without feeling any pain, the same thing applies when you kill them. Do you think that death is somehow magically different from other kinds of physiological phenomena?
 
L

Lirlond

Member
Lothar said:
Why are pets treated better than humans in this area? It's humane to not let pets suffer and put them to sleep, why is it okay to have people suffer? Is there any good arguments against Euthanansia? I don't see how there could be.

Right when you find out that you have some terminal illness, the doctor should give you an option of setting up an appointment for you to be put to sleep.
Click to expand...

The argument is the hippocratic oath and the idea that you might not have wanted to die, and the drugs, disease, what have you altered what you wanted.
 
F

Famassu

Member
Lothar said:
Why are pets treated better than humans in this area? It's humane to not let pets suffer and put them to sleep, why is it okay to have people suffer? Is there any good arguments against Euthanansia? I don't see how there could be.
Click to expand...
Well, the only argument that, IMHO, has any validity is that if euthanasia is accepted (like it should be), the system could be abused in some ways if we aren't careful (i.e. kind of persuading/forcing someone to be euthanized). Even then, if those kinds of concerns were legitimate, I don't think euthanasia should be kept illegal just because of that.

Even then, that's not necessarily valid criticism against euthanasia itself, just the surrounding system that would have to be built around euthanasia so that it can be somewhat controlled & monitored.
 
B

BruiserBear

Banned
Aren't they putting people into a sleep state, similar to a surgery prior to injecting the lethal drugs?

Karsticles said:
Logically, if you can sedate animals/people, perform surgery, and then have them wake up without feeling any pain, the same thing applies when you kill them. Do you think that death is somehow magically different from other kinds of physiological phenomena?
Click to expand...

This is what I've always assumed as well.
 
F

Famassu

Member
Lirlond said:
The argument is the hippocratic oath and the idea that you might not have wanted to die, and the drugs, disease, what have you altered what you wanted.
Click to expand...
I think the problem with doctors' Hippocratic oath (not that every doctor even takes it) can easily be circumvented by either giving each and every doctor the opportunity choose if they want to be the kind of doctor that euthanizes people or not (so doctors who don't want to do it for whatever moral or religious or other personal reasons can opt not to) or just creating one or two institutions that don't have much to do with healthcare professionals and that have some trained staff who will help people through the process.
 
P

Photolysis

Banned
Famassu said:
Well, the only argument that, IMHO, has any validity is that if euthanasia is accepted (like it should be), the system could be abused in some ways if we aren't careful (i.e. kind of persuading/forcing someone to be euthanized). Even then, if those kinds of concerns were legitimate, I don't think euthanasia should be kept illegal just because of that.

Even then, that's not necessarily valid criticism against euthanasia itself, just the surrounding system that would have to be built around euthanasia so that it can be somewhat controlled & monitored.
Click to expand...

I think the concerns about some feeling under pressure to be euthanized are valid, but I was under the impression that places like the Netherlands had safeguards for this reason.

It's an issue to consider, but not insurmountable.
 
A

Azulsky

Member
Anything that first painlessly forces unconsciousness would be equivalent to sleeping from the perspective of the person undergoing it.

We know this because consciousness is a scientifically observable state with the overwhelming majority of people.

This is why the 3 cocktail serum for the lethal injection was considered painless. The first injection was a huge dose of barbituate that knocked you out.


I have heard of weird cases of people undergoing surgery where they were awake to feel pain but paralyzed from other drugs so thats why I said overwhelming not all people.
 
F

Famassu

Member
Photolysis said:
I think the concerns about some feeling under pressure to be euthanized are valid, but I was under the impression that places like the Netherlands had safeguards for this reason.

It's an issue to consider, but not insurmountable.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I agree. And yeah, the system in the kind of places that do allow euthanasia are the kind that do not really make it easy for that kind of pressuring to happen. Seems like you have to go through a lengthy process, it is made sure you are in a right state of mind to make such decisions several times and the people going through it are constantly asked "are you sure you want to do this?"

Even in the Choosing to Die documentary you can see that going through it all is actually pretty rare. Like that place in Switzerland (Dignitas or whatever it was), IIRC, had tons more "these people came in to be euthanized but never went through it" files in the archives room's shelves than "these people actually went through it" ones.
 
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