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Cleveland police officer shoots 12-year-old boy carrying BB gun

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Opiate

Member
Gun culture. Police work is more dangerous in the US than Euros understand.

Yes, this all makes very much sense if you stop thinking of people as perfectly rational agents.

People tend ot use what's around them even if what's around them is bad. Just as people are less likely to eat healthy if there is nothing but fast food in their immediate vicinity, people are more likely to use guns if they have a gun on their hip immediately available to them.

Further, because American citizens are more likely to have guns, police in the US quite reasonably fear gun violence more than police in, say, England do. If 1/2 of your populace owns a gun, you can reasonably fear the potential for a gun; if 1/20th of your populace owns a gun, the fear of gun battles is materially reduced.
 
Gun culture. Police work is more dangerous in the US than Euros understand.

No, this really isn't true. More police die in car accidents than are killed by criminals. Police work isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in America:

http://www.greanvillepost.com/2014/...he-country-police-officer-is-not-on-the-list/

Police are trigger happy because they are trained as an occupying military force. The war on drugs shifted police from guards to soldiers. A perfect example of this is the NYPD officer who just killed someone in a project stairway when his gun went off. Why was his gun drawn? Was he chasing a suspect? No. Drawing your gun in a project stairwell is standard operating procedure for the NYPD. Just like it would be for a marine in Fallujah.

Cops kill because they are trained to kill - US. Period.
 

Corgi

Banned
Makes you wonder why do people even want to be cops? Where you reach the conclusion that shooting a 12 year old is the best course of action. That would fuck with my mind for life even if the action is justified.
 
"Toys" resembling real firearms should be illegal, and stuff like this is going to keep happening until they are.

i agree. i walked into a dollar store a few weeks ago and was taken back by how many "toy" guns were sold there. most looked real and none of which seemed like a good purchase for a child.
 

Zaku

Member
Can you explain then why ever so often we hear these stories from the United States? We have BB guns in Europe and officers do carry weapons with them. It just seems like over here they are better trained to exert control from distance and take careful steps in order to pacify the situation when a dispatch call is made. Individual being shot by law enforcement is a rare occurrence in most European countries.

I do feel bad for the rookie and the kid, it just feels like both were put into a direct confrontation needlessly.

Here's something fun from the US which explains why officers in the US treat these situations so seriously:

7xVMR8E.jpg


That's a shotgun which was specifically disguised to look like a damned Super Soaker. God knows I wouldn't take anyone who pointed that at me seriously, even though it could end my life.

This is a very unfortunate situation all around. The kid certainly didn't deserve to die over a few stupid mistakes... However the officer, by the same token, is under no obligation to unnecessarily risk his life against someone reported as having a lethal weapon, who reaches for the weapon rather than putting his hands in the air.

That's the whole problem with armchair quarterbacking a situation like this. In the comfort of our own homes, we can dissect the facts the officer couldn't have known to paint as negative or as positive a light on the situation as possible.

All the officer knew going in was that there were reports of a youth with what appeared to be a firearm out in public, which he'd been pointing at others. The doubts that it was a real gun were not conveyed to the responding officers, so for all they knew it was real... And the 911 dispatch was right not to trust the word of a random caller on the supposed status of the weapon. If the caller was so certain that the gun was fake, wouldn't they have confronted the kid themselves, especially if the kid was pointing it at people?

When they arrived on scene, the kid put the weapon in his waistband and reached for it when ordered to put his hands in the air. Nobody wants to die on the job. At the time, all the officer knew was that the suspect was reaching for a weapon he'd seen the suspect conceal, despite orders to put his hands up.

The officer didn't make a bad call in this situation. If he'd hesitated even a moment or two and the gun were real, it could have been him dead instead of the kid, and he had no way of knowing whether or not the gun was real.

The failure here is mainly on the parents or guardians for letting the kid have the replica in the first place and a failure to teach the kid the right place and time for using the airsoft gun, of which "in public, with the safety colors scratched off, and pointing at people who don't know it's a replica" certainly is not the right time and place.
 

BigDug13

Member
If open carry of guns is allowed, why are cops "being called about someone walking around with a gun"? Or is this one of those places where you can't open carry?
 

kirblar

Member
Yes, this all makes very much sense if you stop thinking of people as perfectly rational agents.

People tend ot use what's around them even if what's around them is bad. Just as people are less likely to eat healthy if there is nothing but fast food in their immediate vicinity, people are more likely to use guns if they have a gun on their hip immediately available to them.

Further, because American citizens are more likely to have guns, police in the US quite reasonably fear gun violence more than police in, say, England do. If 1/2 of your populace owns a gun, you can reasonably fear the potential for a gun; if 1/20th of your populace owns a gun, the fear of gun battles is materially reduced.
It's the same information asymmetry that's mentioned regarding women's interactions with unknown men - they have no way of identifying which might potentially assault them, so they have to keep the shields up vs all of them. Same thing with police in the US and the people they interact with daily. It's a rational reaction to US gun availability, and until we fix that (odds: low) they are going to have to keep using that hyper-defensive posture when interacting with the world.
 

Aurongel

Member
I think it's very easy to blame the cop when you have the retrospective knowledge that the gun was a toy after the fact. It's an ugly outcome for everyone involved but the officer watched the kid conceal the potential firearm then reach for it when he was ordered to put his hands up. I don't think he did anything wrong given what he knew at the time and I wish people would instead be more critical towards the pointlessly realistic toy gun that caused all of this.
 

Zaku

Member
If open carry of guns is allowed, why are cops "being called about someone walking around with a gun"? Or is this one of those places where you can't open carry?

The kid was pointing it at people.

Even in places where Open Carry is lawful or even expected, actually pointing the weapon at someone is certain to draw police attention, especially if the person is young enough that they likely aren't legal to Open Carry.
 

Ian

Member
The cop has now got to live with the fact that he killed a child. Fucking tragedy all round.
 

zeemumu

Member
It's terrible that this happened, but at the same time I feel bad for admitting that if the initial story is true, then it makes a little sense why the cop opened fire. It's still not excusable, but it makes more sense than something like that stairwell story. From the picture, the BB gun doesn't have an orange nozzle to differentiate between a real and fake gun, and the kid reached for it.

And I don't know the law for Ohio, but I don't think 12 year olds are allowed to purchase BB guns in California.

Edit: minimum age is 18 everywhere I guess.
 

Zaku

Member
And not relastically shaped as well.

Toy guns should all be bright neon colors. Would prevent things like this.

Ahem. Guys. Cops will take weapons seriously even if they're bright colors. Hell, depending on the person they'll take a Super Soaker seriously. Check the picture I posted up there. Not to mention ridiculous stuff like Hello Kitty weapons.

Even if it's not gunmetal or black, cops will take a piece of hardware seriously if it looks real enough, no matter the color. Unfortunately there's no one size fits all solution to this, and in a gun-crazy culture like the USA, police officers will always be trained to err on the side of self-preservation when faced with doubt.

Another dangerous criminal off the streets. Kudos to our brave police officers!

/s

Man, you're right, It's not like the kid was pointing a realistic looking weapon at people and then reached for it when ordered to put his hands in the air, right?
 

Nephtis

Member
I read about this last night. I can and will blame the officer here. That boy is only 12.

What, a 12yr old boy is incapable of firing a real gun or something? Ever heard of child soldiers? Kids are perfectly capable of handling guns. Blaming the officer for this incident, in which the gun had the orange tip removed / painted over to make it look like a real gun, is the last person to be blamed here.

Why not blame the parents or the dumbass kid that wanted to make the gun look real?
 

Syriel

Member
Can't blame that cops for that one.

Stupid kid, pulling a gun on them :/

First post nails it.

Well in this incident it was not a gun so are you telling me he was justified in shooting the kid? I never said they should wait for the gun to be pointed at them . I am saying they could have handled the situation better hindsight is 20/20 though so. Just makes them look worse especially with the justice department investigating their department for this type of situation.

It looked like a gun.

The kid acted like he had a gun.

Cops are not mind readers.

It's perfectly legal (and encouraged) to stand up to power tripping cops and give them shit, but you do not ever pull out anything remotely resembling a gun while dealing with a cop unless you plan on getting shot.

This was not a case of a power tripping cop putting hit boot on a minority.

From all existing reports, this was a case of an idiot kid who drew on an officer and was shot. Since people can draw and fire very quickly, it is difficult to blame the officer for shooting.
 
Nice GAF slandering a 12 year old kid that just died. Is he really that stupid? There are kids that can handle guns but not in the US, not like what's being described. This country has such a fucked up gun culture and the world lost another youth.
 

Zaku

Member
What, a 12yr old boy is incapable of firing a real gun or something? Ever heard of child soldiers? Kids are perfectly capable of handling guns. Blaming the officer for this incident, in which the gun had the orange tip removed / painted over to make it look like a real gun, is the last person to be blamed here.

Why not blame the parents or the dumbass kid that wanted to make the gun look real?

Because blaming the parents or kid places a modicum of personal accountability on them. That's not how America works, don't you know? Police officers and/or anyone with official responsibility have 100% culpability in any incident they're involved in, regardless of how anyone else behaved or whatever facts may be relevant to the individual incident in question.

Nice GAF slandering a 12 year old kid that just died. Is he really that stupid? There are kids that can handle guns but not in the US, not like what's being described. This country has such a fucked up gun culture and the world lost another youth.

Yes, yes he was that stupid. He's a kid and didn't deserve to die, but he really was not being smart at all. He had a realistic-looking gun replica which he was pointing at other people in public, which he put in his waistband and reached for when the officer gave him an order to raise his hands.

Is the world a better place because he's dead? God no. This is a tragedy and he didn't deserve to die.

However the officer is, in this case, pretty much blameless in how he handled the situation.
 
Call me crazy, but I'm always skeptical of police accounts where a guy with a fake gun, who knows he has a fake gun, suddenly draws down on a cop that has a real gun.
 

Ian

Member
Call me crazy, but I'm always skeptical of police accounts where a guy with a fake gun, who knows he has a fake gun, suddenly draws down on a cop that has a real gun.
Yeah a much more feasible explanation is that this cop was out that night looking to murder a 12 year old child because he fancied it.
 
Yeah a much more feasible explanation is that this cop was out that night looking to murder a 12 year old child because he fancied it.
Or he saw the gun in the kids waistband and panicked. Was probably already on edge since the call was about a kid with a gun.
 

Chumly

Member
Police claim the kid pointed the gun at them, but that doesn't mean it actually occurred.
I don't believe for one second that the kid pulled and pointed the gun at te police officers. I'll wait for more witnesses to collaborate that. All we have now is a police officer covering his ass.

I'm really surprised that so many people are just taking the officers word of the account. He just killed someone. Of course he's going to say that the kid pulled the gun on him.
 

Zaku

Member
Or he saw the gun in the kids waistband and panicked. Was probably already on edge since the call was about a kid with a gun.

No, he responded exactly as he was trained to do against an armed suspect who'd been reported as pointing a weapon people, who was reaching for his weapon rather than complying with police instructions.

Police training is very clear about what to do in this situation, and the training is correct for a gun culture like the USA: In 2012 alone, 48 police officers were killed as a result of purposeful gunfire directed at them.

I don't believe for one second that the kid pulled and pointed the gun at te police officers. I'll wait for more witnesses to collaborate that. All we have now is a police officer covering his ass.

You don't believe a kid stupid enough to take a replica gun with the safety colors removed into public and point it at people is stupid enough to reach for it when confronted by a police officer?
 

Chumly

Member
You don't believe a kid stupid enough to take a replica gun with the safety colors removed into public and point it at people is stupid enough to reach for it when confronted by a police officer?
Absolutely not. There is a huge difference between being a jackass and suicidal. Did the kid of mental issues?
 

Zoned

Actively hates charity
Are there any types of bullets which can just give you a shock when fired through a gun and make you unconscious rather than killing someone?
 

Zaku

Member
Are there any types of bullets which can just give you a shock when fired through a gun and make you unconscious rather than killing someone?

LTL (Less Than Lethal) options exist, and officers don't use them for a very good reason: They're not as effective, harder to use, and can put the officers in significant danger when presented with lethal force.

Officers will use nonlethal options when presented with something that isn't an immediate, lethal threat and when they have backup available which can escalate the situation as necessary.

Their training makes it very clear that lethal force is to be responded to in kind. When faced with a lethally-armed attacker, officers draw and continue to fire at center mass until the threat is put down.

Their life is priority over the attacker's life.

Trick shots and non-lethal weapons are only viable in the movies, unfortunately.

It's hard to believe a kid would pull a fake gun out of his waistband with officers already drawn down on him.

Just like it's hard to believe a kid would use a fake gun to menace people in public in broad daylight, yet here we are. Some people are stupid, or just convinced of their own immortality.

I'm not saying the kid deserved to die, of course, but it's not surprising that someone willing to walk around with a realistic-looking gun tucked in his pants would think he could get away with pointing it at a cop.
 
What, a 12yr old boy is incapable of firing a real gun or something? Ever heard of child soldiers? Kids are perfectly capable of handling guns. Blaming the officer for this incident, in which the gun had the orange tip removed / painted over to make it look like a real gun, is the last person to be blamed here.

Why not blame the parents or the dumbass kid that wanted to make the gun look real?

This thread is really pissing me off. Yeah the kid shouldn't have had a gun with the orange tip removed. The kid shouldn't have been playing with the gun outside. But how many cases do you hear of little kids shooting officers? Rarely if any. This isn't effing Africa. Child soldiers? You've got to be kidding me.

Now ask yourself how often do police officers kill african american children. VERY OFTEN. Way more often than the other way around. Police officers are scared silly of black little children (and Im sure they say, "ever heard of child soldiers!) and resort to shoot first ask questions later.

So yeah. I do blame the officer. He let his prejudiced views of blacks cause him to handle the situation extremely poorly.
 

Tagyhag

Member
It's hard to believe a kid would pull a fake gun out of his waistband with officers already drawn down on him.

Not really, it was probably a moment of panic like "Wait it's not real look!"

The kid was only 12, he was an idiot, and his parents are idiots for letting him such a realistic gun in the first place. I assume the green officer immediately remembered his training about not hesitating because you will die. He obviously wouldn't have shot a damn kid if he knew it was a fake.

It's a shitty situation all around.
 
Not really, it was probably a moment of panic like "Wait it's not real look!"

The kid was only 12, he was an idiot, and his parents are idiots for letting him such a realistic gun in the first place. I assume the green officer immediately remembered his training about not hesitating because you will die. He obviously wouldn't have shot a damn kid if he knew it was a fake.

It's a shitty situation all around.

ugh. Again kids are always idiots. It's up to an officer to correctly assess a situation. Kids rarely shoot or kill officers.

Its a lot more common for a kid to be holding a BB gun than a real gun. And it's a lot more common for an officer to shoot and kill a child than a child to have a real gun or to shoot and kill an officer.

But yeah. Officers don't need common sense because their job is to protect and serve themselves.
 

commedieu

Banned
why didn't police shoot that man in the park waving a gun at them, and other people, again..? What was different between him and this child, again?

These guns need to be banned from sale, if you can be executed for having one in the street. Or not aiming it at people in Walmart, fair? This happens far too often for it to be a pandemic of people aiming fake guns at police to get killed.

And, no, I don't believe the kid pointed a gun at police. Nor do I ever believe that is the case, unless there is video.
 

Zaku

Member
This thread is really pissing me off. Yeah the kid shouldn't have had a gun with the orange tip removed. The kid shouldn't have been playing with the gun outside. But how many cases do you hear of little kids shooting officers? Rarely if any. This isn't effing Africa. Child soldiers? You've got to be kidding me.

Now ask yourself how often do police officers kill african american children. VERY OFTEN. Way more often than the other way around. Police officers are scared silly of black little children (and Im sure they say, "ever heard of child soldiers!) and resort to shoot first ask questions later.

So yeah. I do blame the officer. He let his prejudiced views of blacks cause him to handle the situation extremely poorly.

One: He wasn't playing with a toy gun. He was pointing a realistic looking replica gun at people in a public place.

Two: We don't know anything about the kid. Some 12-year-olds look ten, some look as old as eighteen. Unless we see a picture of him at 4'6", we can't assume he actually looked like a kid, and it's not like he was running around with his age clipped to his shoulder.

Three: He ignored an armed police officer's directions and instead reached for what everyone in this thread will agree looks startlingly like a real god-damned weapon.

This isn't about some white cop being afraid of black kids, it's about a police officer responding to a situation exactly as he was trained to do, because the officer quite reasonably concludede that he might about to be shot based on the evidence in front of him.

All dispatch knew was that the gun might be fake, and the suspect might be a kid. For all the officer knew, it was a short adult, the gun was real, and the suspect was on some kind of drug.

The logical result of this story shouldn't ever be "Cops hate black kids and want to shoot them", but "Giving children access to fake replica guns and not educating them about handling them responsibly is a terrible god-damned idea."

Edit: Also, as an aside, assuming this is a racial thing is just.... Gah. Way to turn a senseless tragedy into a political talking point. Good job.

Where did it state the race of the child? The only black thing I see in the article is the gun.

It's stated in the 911 call.
 

Tagyhag

Member
ugh. Again kids are always idiots. It's up to an officer to correctly assess a situation. Kids rarely shoot or kill officers.

Its a lot more common for a kid to be holding a BB gun than a real gun. And it's a lot more common for an officer to shoot and kill a child than a child to have a real gun or to shoot and kill an officer.

But yeah. Officers don't need common sense because their job is to protect and serve themselves.

I agree, the age of the kid should have been taken into account, but that's probably where the rookie status took hold.
 

commedieu

Banned
One: He wasn't playing with a toy gun. He was pointing a realistic looking replica gun at people in a public place.

Two: We don't know anything about the kid. Some 12-year-olds look ten, some look as old as eighteen. Unless we see a picture of him at 4'6", we can't assume he actually looked like a kid, and it's not like he was running around with his age clipped to his shoulder.

Three: He ignored an armed police officer's directions and instead reached for what everyone in this thread will agree looks startlingly like a real god-damned weapon.

This isn't about some white cop being afraid of black kids, it's about a police officer responding to a situation exactly as he was trained to do, because the officer quite reasonably concludede that he might about to be shot based on the evidence in front of him.

All dispatch knew was that the gun might be fake, and the suspect might be a kid. For all the officer knew, it was a short adult, the gun was real, and the suspect was on some kind of drug.

The logical result of this story shouldn't ever be "Cops hate black kids and want to shoot them", but "Giving children access to fake replica guns and not educating them about handling them responsibly is a terrible god-damned idea."

Edit: Also, as an aside, assuming this is a racial thing is just.... Gah. Way to turn a senseless tragedy into a political talking point. Good job.

No problem. The people continuing to be affected (shot to death) by police abuse and violence will continue to do so, while others are miffed at harsh words being used to describe systemic problems in America. See you all next time it happens, again.
 
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