-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Cleveland police officer shoots 12-year-old boy carrying BB gun
- Thread starter malfcn
- Start date
- Status
Jmanunknown
Member
You can not have it both ways though so by saying the cop was justified in shooting the kid you are basically saying the kid deserved to get shot.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
You would never taze a person with a gun. Its likely to make them involuntarily pull the trigger.
Can't really fault the officer here. There is just no way you could distinguish that from a real gun without actually getting your hands on it.
Hopefully the kid doesn't pay for such an idiotic action with his life.
Today, I think the answer is 'no one'. That's probably a pretty old BB gun.
Hopefully the kid doesn't pay for such an idiotic action with his life.
Today, I think the answer is 'no one'. That's probably a pretty old BB gun.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Those words do not mean the things you think they mean, sorry.
Yeah. I mean, this is the exact reason alot of countries require orange tips on these toys or other weird changes that make it obvious it's not a real firearm. I've read a lot of stories about American cops being stupid by now, but I can't really blame them for this one if the kid actually pointed a BB gun at him when that shit might as well have been a real weapon. Unfortune situation, but somewhat understandable.
Fucking Kinder Surprise is illegal but children running around with toys that look like real weapons is totally safe and harmless, never change USA.
Doctoglethorpe
Member
Its easy for an adult to say that. 12 year olds are fucking stupid. They make mistakes almost constantly, thats what growing up is all about.
This cop made the kid pay for a mistake with his life, for what? Did the cop really feel threatened by the kid? If he was, he shouldn't be a cop. Whatever the thoughts running through his head, he snapped too quickly to what should be a last resort, especially with little kids who in all likelihood mean no ill will and are just confused or ignorant.
This cowardly shoot first, preemptive strike attitude is why Americans (cops included) shouldn't have guns.
Saying that a police officer is justified in shooting a kid if they pull a gun is not the same as saying that this particular kid deserved to get shot. One is based on the information available to the officer, and the other relates to the actual nature of the situation.
So tell me, how should the cop have handled the situation? There is a weapon pointing at you from a Young kid, you cant see any markings saying it is a "fake" gun.
Jmanunknown
Member
definition of of deserve- do something or have or show qualities worthy of (reward or punishment). Y
I am sorry but, you saying it was ok for the cop to shoot the kid in this situation because he thought the gun was real leads to the consequence of the kid getting shot which it turn means you are saying he deserved it.
Affirming the consequent does not suddenly make your logic valid.
The real problem is that this is why we have parents to help kids make the correct judgement calls. Here, there seems to have been no such help, as evident by the fact that the kid had a fake gun in a public place to begin with.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Nope.
Are you really saying the cop shouldn't feel threatened when as far as he knows the kid has a gun... really?
Jmanunknown
Member
It was not pointed at him so walk back your situation again and i am tired of arguing with you all the kid got shot by the cop end of story. He should not have shot the kid. Justice department investigating the police department for possibly excessive violence against citizens.
King Tubby
Member
All that quote means is that the kid didn't instigate the situation with the cop. What did happen, if you read the article, is that the cop saw the kid pick up the gun and put it in his waistband. He told the kid to put his hands up, kid reaches for the gun instead. What do you do? You have to wait until the kid is drawing down on you? That's an unreasonable expectation to make of the cop.
Uh, why? A 12 year old with a gun can kill a lot of people. Even a six year-old can kill someone.
You, right now, know that the gun isn't real. If you didn't know, and you were in that position, you'd be entirely justified in assuming that it is real.
You're making way too many assumptions. As shitty as cops can be I don't think we can assume that this one was just angling to shoot a 12 year old. It wouldn't have happened if there wasn't a reasonable belief that people's lives were in danger.
Sadly yes.
If you wait until a gun is literally pointed at you, then someone could already have shot you. "Waiting until aimed at" doesn't even make sense. It doesn't take an hour (hell, not even a second) to pull a trigger. This isn't the movies where someone aims, gives a huge speech, and then decides not to pull the trigger; if you get aimed at, you could be dead before you realize it.
When an officer asks for you to put your hands up, reaching for your gun is nearly the same thing as pointing it at the officer. Granted I don't expect a 12 year old to necessarily know this, but I can't fault the officer for fearing for his life. Guns shot by 5 year olds kill just as fast as guns shot from 50 year olds.
I hope the kid recovers, but some in the anti-police movement are just straight up irrational.
My whole post was about the other poster saying that a weapon is point AT you. Which simply was not the case even according police.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
This is one of the few times where I don't remotely blame the cops. That shit can look real as hell from a distance.
I'm guessing the kid wanted to pull the gun out to show the officer that it's not real. Should've tell him first what he was doing. Can't blame the police for this, that was clear communication problem that the boy had. In the first place, who thought it would be a good idea to get a kid a realistic looking BB gun?
That looks real from a close up photo, never mind 10 - 15 metres away.
Difficult to find fault with the cop here. Why was 12 yo wandering around an urban area and outside a rec centre with that thing?
Bad situation all round
It apparently used to have an orange tip.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
there's a business idea: real guns with orange tips.
Labombadog
Member
Crazy. I passed by that rec last night while I was visiting a great friend (Fellow gaffer NaughtyCalibur) and saw cop cars around the vicinity.
Horrible situation but can't really blame the cop on this one.
Horrible situation but can't really blame the cop on this one.
Expected this to have happened in East Cleveland, so much fucked up things are happening in that small section. But after a quick map search this incident occurred pretty far away. It sucks that the kid had to get shot but really if someone is carrying a bb gun that looks that real and from a distance do not blame the cops really.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'd be more willing to accept the "what's a cop supposed to do?" argument, if not for the fact that there seem to be several examples of what they could have done. Specifically, these examples are of the restraint shown towards primarily white gun-wielding individuals. I also would accept that it was a rational reaction if there was no reason to believe that snap judgments that lead to an officer shooting someone didn't seem to be more liberally applied towards black people (such as the recent video of a black man being shot for reaching for his ID as the officer requested (I don't know if this was the exact circumstances, but I do recall that the civilian was abiding the officer's actions and the shooting was unjustified).
This is certainly not a "holding a wallet" shooting, but based on the history of harsher treatment towards armed non-white people by police officers, there are problematic issues to look at here.
This is certainly not a "holding a wallet" shooting, but based on the history of harsher treatment towards armed non-white people by police officers, there are problematic issues to look at here.
http://m.clickondetroit.com/news/defenders-criminals-using-orange-tips-on-real-guns/25983942
People also paint there guns pink, ti-di etc.
Mammoth Jones
Member
On one hand they teach cops that hesitation will get them killed. They shot training videos of other cops hesitation in certain situations and they died. So there's that.
But then we have a 12 year old child that doesn't know any better and probably got scared as shit when those cops showed up and he figured to give them the gun and the cops thought he was trying to draw and they shot him.
You kinda answered your own question. It's easy to look back on the details of the incident from the perspective of it having already occurred. It's another thing entirely to give someone instructions and have them ignore it then go into their waist and pull out what easily appears to be an actual firearm. Split second decision required.
But then we have a 12 year old child that doesn't know any better and probably got scared as shit when those cops showed up and he figured to give them the gun and the cops thought he was trying to draw and they shot him.
You kinda answered your own question. It's easy to look back on the details of the incident from the perspective of it having already occurred. It's another thing entirely to give someone instructions and have them ignore it then go into their waist and pull out what easily appears to be an actual firearm. Split second decision required.
BWJinxing
Member
100%.
In situations, you have a split second decision to possibly save your own life or be injured.
The kid has a black object with the safety cap removed, who picks it up as the officer arrives, and reaches for it while the talking, essentially with no communication going on.
I have to side with the cop. Are you honestly going to ask are you armed at that point? If it was real and he hesitated, then what?
I'm sorry but if the kid goofed in the story as told. Id love to hear how it should have been handled under the same senario.
Mammoth Jones
Member
The general insinuation here is that the police should have known it was a BB gun. Not sure how realistic that is. At first glance some of them can look real until you notice the details.
Unfortunate situation and had I been the cop I wouldn't have known how to react in such short time.
What I take from this is that parents can be incredibly irresponsible and should be the ones to blame for this incident. How did the kid get his hands on a realistic-looking BB gun? Who handed it to him?
What I take from this is that parents can be incredibly irresponsible and should be the ones to blame for this incident. How did the kid get his hands on a realistic-looking BB gun? Who handed it to him?
I wonder how you'd handle a situation like this which requires quick judgment, it's easy to talk about it with all the details out there and a lot of time to think about it.
BWJinxing
Member
Looks pretty realistic even at this distance ... people don't have robocop eyes. The cap was removed. What in that sea of plastic is a giveaway, especially at such distance away in the real world? It's not the movies.
Im convineed that without handling that gun, it looks legit. Had their been communication with the officer and kid, it might have ended that way.
There is no way you could know at stand off distance.
Officers should be able to look at all the circumstances before using lethal force. You have a 12 year old fooling around with what looks like a weapon. At that point you can retreat slightly and try to communicate from distance.
In Europe it is almost unfathomable that anyone would be shot in a similar situation. The only justification is just reacting quickly if the person goes for the gun and comes across as threatening, those are split second decisions though. Hopefully the fella pulls through.
In Europe it is almost unfathomable that anyone would be shot in a similar situation. The only justification is just reacting quickly if the person goes for the gun and comes across as threatening, those are split second decisions though. Hopefully the fella pulls through.
Mammoth Jones
Member
In real life cops don't have V.A.T.S to pause time and analyze a situation. Cops don't carry guns in Europe generally, do they? And if you wanna use this as an example of why they shouldn't then that's a different conversation entirely and I really don't want this to devolve into the same US vs Europe banter.
From the cops perspective dude was ignoring their instructions and pulling a gun. No way to know it's fake without holding it and inspecting it. Split second decision.
I don't disagree with this. My uncle gave me a BB gun when I was 13 for my birthday. My mom and dad took it away immediately. I threw a fit but they didn't give a shit. They knew what's best for me. They were good parents. I should call my mother, lol.
Of course europaen police has guns too. This particular case could happen here too. However, it's a lot more unlikely to happen imo.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
Can you do something for me? Put your hand in your waist and time how long it takes you to pull it out, raise it and pull the imaginary trigger with your index finger?how long did that take you? Is that time retreat to behind a car or other object?
Can you explain then why ever so often we hear these stories from the United States? We have BB guns in Europe and officers do carry weapons with them. It just seems like over here they are better trained to exert control from distance and take careful steps in order to pacify the situation when a dispatch call is made. Individual being shot by law enforcement is a rare occurrence in most European countries.
I do feel bad for the rookie and the kid, it just feels like both were put into a direct confrontation needlessly.
I dunno if you are serious or not, but both those things don't work with long distances..
Gun culture. Police work is more dangerous in the US than Euros understand.
- Status