• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Do you think 3D Sonic could be better if they tried more open level design?

S

Slamtastic

Member
I recently saw the restored beta version of Windy Hill from Sonic Adventure 1, and noticed how much less "rollercoaster" like it was compared to the final, and what I generally associate with 3D Sonic stages.

There are also the various fan made 3D Sonic engines that attempt to return physics to the series and feature more open test levels with various ramps and pipes scattered around.

Would you prefer if 3D Sonic switched from a "rollercoaster" to a "skatepark"?

(Obviously besides the level design, removal of boost, less boost pads, and real physics would be included as well)
 
HUELEN10

HUELEN10

Member
Lost World proved the opposite is the case. Sonic games need to be less open, yet still wide, and Unleashed is proof of this. One of the many reasons it's superior to Generations and Colors IMO.
 
P

Poltergust

Member
If Sega made future levels to be like Modern Seaside Hill in Generations, I'd be very happy.

HUELEN10 said:
Lost World proved the opposite is the case. Sonic games need to be less open, yet still wide, and Unleashed is proof of this.
Click to expand...

Really? I thought the better levels in that game were the more open ones (well, not the ones that are like Super Mario Galaxy, but the ones that gave you lots of choices to go forward).
 
O

OverdriveOtaku

Member
I like how Generations did it by having different alternate routes, but I don't think having it wide open would be better. Even in Sonic Adventure I never really felt like "damn, this shit is just a roller coaster" and just had a blast with it, even if it is roller coaster-ish if broken down mechanically.
 
S

Solid SOAP

Member
Multiple routes in levels so replayability is high, but an open world would not be a great aid to the Sonic formula. I still play Generations because the levels are so fun to go through again and again, that's how you make a good Sonic game.
 
G

Guri

Member
I don't think so. I believe the level designers should approach each stage with different possibilities to go through them, but that's different from being open world. That takes away what makes Sonic exciting to me, because you would stop every time and lose momentum.
 
B

Broder Salsa

Banned
They should try switching genre imo. Like how awesome would a first person sonic be? Just do a mirrors edge port, especially with virtual reality becoming a thing, you can admire knuckles abs like he was actually there in front of you.
 
B

BladeoftheImmortal

Member
I was thinking they spend too much time worrying about stages. problem has always revolved with how Sonic moves in a 3D environment. They need to go back and make those physics fun in a 3D world and then build the worlds around his moveset.

There's just something "off" about his movement, and it started with Adventure. When you go really fast and try to turn, he jutters a bit, gets really fidgety and usually abruptly stops or gets stuck on something in the level.

So it's the character, not the stages that have been the problem. Even in Generations (the best sonic game since 3 and knuckles) he still feels off in 3D. his jumping is floaty. you'll go from sonic speed to Mario sunshine speed just by jumping.
 
L

Leafhopper

Banned
shark sandwich said:
http://youtu.be/dte7KJ_F5b8
Click to expand...

5vAeO9c.gif
 
W

WillyFive

Member
Probably the best experience I have had with a 3D Sonic game was a fan game called Sonic Robo Blast 2, that had large open worlds and areas where you were free to run around with great sleep and explore the world; even despite the simple Doom-engine graphics.

So yes.
 
O

OverdriveOtaku

Member
HUELEN10 said:
Look at this, just look at this! Any more constricted, and it would be claustrophobic; any more open, and it would lose itself and be nowhere near as exhilirating.

Less open and still wide enough is how you do it.
Click to expand...

Yep, this. I'm down for experimenting different formulas but this is the best one so far IMO. Closest I've ever felt to feeling like I'm in a Sonic game.

This reminds me: can't stress how awesome the Unleashed Project mod is for Sonic Generations [Steam]. I couldn't confidently say Sonic Generations is my favorite Sonic game if it weren't for this mod.
 
C

Choomp

Banned
Yeah, I'd like to see how it'd come out, but pretty much everything else in Sonic games now suck. Visuals have little to no polish, story and dialogue are horrible. and while the non-fluid, boring gameplay could be improved, I don't think it'd help too much.
 
Teletraan1

Teletraan1

Banned
Sonic proved it in 2D that this series is only capable of making a few intriguing levels that strike the right balance of having a good flow to them and not making it seem like the game is just playing itself. It has never transitioned to 3D properly since it was a flimsy concept to begin with even in 2D. The series should stick to Kart Racing and the rest of these games should be put out to pasture.
 
B

BladeoftheImmortal

Member
I'd, personally, make a game world like just cause 2 for sonic to run around in. he's supposed to be super fast, like above speed of sound. give him a game world he can really let loose in.
 
M

M3d10n

Member
BladeoftheImmortal said:
I was thinking they spend too much time worrying about stages. problem has always revolved with how Sonic moves in a 3D environment. They need to go back and make those physics fun in a 3D world and then build the worlds around his moveset.

There's just something "off" about his movement, and it started with Adventure. When you go really fast and try to turn, he jutters a bit, gets really fidgety and usually abruptly stops or gets stuck on something in the level.

So it's the character, not the stages that have been the problem. Even in Generations (the best sonic game since 3 and knuckles) he still feels off in 3D. his jumping is floaty. you'll go from sonic speed to Mario sunshine speed just by jumping.
Click to expand...

I agree. Ever since Sonic went 3D the movement felt off. Later games "fixed" the problem by having Sonic run along tracks most of the time, relying on homing into enemies/springs and using 2D sidescrolling for platform-heavy sections (which still feels off, but isn't as terrible as trying to jump in platforms in 3D like in SA1). They need to go back to the drawing board for the movement control and movesets. I wouldn't mind if they slowed him down a bit if it made controls more pleasant and fun.

Teletraan1 said:
Sonic proved it in 2D that this series is only capable of making a few intriguing levels that strike the right balance of having a good flow to them and not making it seem like the game is just playing itself. It has never transitioned to 3D properly since it was a flimsy concept to begin with even in 2D. The series should stick to Kart Racing and the rest of these games should be put out to pasture.
Click to expand...

Really? By your logic Nintendo should have stuck Mario to kart racers too, because Nintendo had to re-work nearly everything about Mario to make it work in 3D: movement speed, moveset, intertia. Mario gained punches and kicks (because landing jumps in 3D was much harder), gained an easily replenishable health bar (because moving in 3D was harder and the two-hit big/small mechanic was too unforgiving), lost the fire flower (because shooting things in 3D was harder), lost the invisible blocks, the level design was radically different. It took Nintendo 9 years to figure out how to implement some of the classic Mario elements in 3D (like the red mushroom health system and getting rid of the karate moves), and it came at the cost of making the games "less" 3D.
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
Here's a crazy idea that you all may like but I'd probably hate. Let's take the Unleashed/Generations controls, take away boost and give him a spin dash. There.
 
S

shark sandwich

tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
Teletraan1 said:
Sonic proved it in 2D that this series is only capable of making a few intriguing levels that strike the right balance of having a good flow to them and not making it seem like the game is just playing itself. It has never transitioned to 3D properly since it was a flimsy concept to begin with even in 2D. The series should stick to Kart Racing and the rest of these games should be put out to pasture.
Click to expand...

Pretty much how I feel.

It's hard enough to make these speed focused, race track like levels and still let you explore. To do so with 3D levels where you're fighting the camera is just a terrible idea.

The Sonic cycle continues.
 
S

Slamtastic

Member
M3d10n said:
It took Nintendo 9 years to figure out how to implement some of the classic Mario elements in 3D (like the red mushroom health system and getting rid of the karate moves), and it came at the cost of making the games "less" 3D.
Click to expand...

And frankly I prefer 64 to everything afterwards, and don't care to play the recent isometric-ish ones at all.
 
F

Frumix

Suffering From Success
Colors had absolutely the right idea. Reward better performance with access to parts of the level with better loot. At the end of the day it's not like the games have to be superfast like Unleashed in day time. They're just about a guy who can go fast. Generations levels were almost perfect at this, there were constant switches between gofast and careful platforming practically at no loss of momentum (but it did have to resort to 2D sections though). Shame there weren't... well, MORE of Generations than just 9 worlds. Refining and expanding Colors+Generations designs is what they should've done in an instant, instead they keep doing these weird experiments that really don't fit anywhere and generally turn out poorly.
 
S

Sami+

Member
The important part is that the game is good. Both the Unleashed and SA1 formulas shine in particularly well designed levels.
 
R

Regiruler

Member
HUELEN10 said:
Lost World proved the opposite is the case. Sonic games need to be less open, yet still wide, and Unleashed is proof of this. One of the many reasons it's superior to Generations and Colors IMO.
Click to expand...

LW was not necessarily "open". It was just far less strict with alternate paths.
BladeoftheImmortal said:
I was thinking they spend too much time worrying about stages. problem has always revolved with how Sonic moves in a 3D environment. They need to go back and make those physics fun in a 3D world and then build the worlds around his moveset.
Click to expand...

Play Lost World. Best movement in the series, but it takes some getting used to.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
HUELEN10 said:
Lost World proved the opposite is the case. Sonic games need to be less open, yet still wide, and Unleashed is proof of this. One of the many reasons it's superior to Generations and Colors IMO.
Click to expand...
It helped Unleashed in some of the open/hub areas though. I still think Unleashed is the blueprint for the future of the franchise design-wise, artistically and somewhat mechanically (but the mechanics need a completely fresh look IMO).
 
T

Tookay

Member
They need to go back to the drawing board with his 3D movement. I think there needs to be a sense of momentum and actual physics to his character, which a more open world (full of hills and valleys, ditches, and ravines) might take advantage of. Because right now, what they've got is not really working.
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
Tookay said:
They need to go back to the drawing board with his 3D movement. I think there needs to be a sense of momentum and actual physics to his character, which a more open world (full of hills and valleys, ditches, and ravines) might take advantage of. Because right now, what they've got is not really working.
Click to expand...

What do they have now?
 
D

Dyne

Member
I think they're totally capable. Look at Billy Hatcher. The reason Sonic is so streamlined is because he's a fast character. That's not really the point of open world.
 
T

Tookay

Member
Arc Christelle said:
What do they have now?
Click to expand...

Nothing. I don't think they have a clear conception of what they want to do with a 3D Sonic.

I see something like Mario 64, and how it was basically a design doc for how Mario (and similar characters) would be defined in 3D. Sure, they've added and removed things along the way, but there's a core there that figured out how his character should interact in a 3D environment.

Sega hasn't figured out how to fully utilize a fast moving character in a third dimension, without basically automating various obstacles or removing control from the player.
 
R

RGamer2009

Neo Member
Yes. My perfect Sonic game involves a MASSIVE open world hub. No cities at all, just a big open plain with loops and random mountains and rock formations scattered around. There are various routes to the levels on the edges of the Hub. No HUD onscreen in the Hub either.

Controls/Gameplay are Unleashed/Colors but no longer restricted to a linear path in the hub. You can blast all over the central hub within a minute or two between destinations.

The level design would get more linear like Unleashed and Generations on these offshoots from the Hub. No transitions whatsoever. Entering an act brings the HUD onscreen. After the act, something would happen, usually opening a new path in the Hub.

Just an idea regarding a possible open world Sonic.
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
Tookay said:
Nothing. I don't think they have a clear conception of what they want to do with a 3D Sonic.

I see something like Mario 64, and how it was basically a design doc for how Mario (and similar characters) would be defined in 3D. Sure, they've added and removed things along the way, but there's a core there that figured out how his character should interact in a 3D environment.

Sega hasn't figured out how to fully utilize a fast moving character in a third dimension, without basically automating various obstacles or removing control from the player.
Click to expand...

What you mean nothing? They've released various games in 3D with varying degrees of quality.

-------------------

Does anybody remember the days when SA2 had a better formula for control Sonic wise with stuff like timed jumps, Light Dash, Spin Dash, Homing Attack and Bounce?

Then on to Heroes they started over, adding interesting new stuff, yet messing up some things like Dropping Timed Jumps, Spin Dash, bad Light Dash functionality, and he couldn't even handle curves in the special stages? He felt stiff as hell, and the best playable character was Espio? I ain't even gonna get started on how poorly thought out Flying Mode was.

-Anybody remember how bad the Mach Speed stages were in 06? He was perpetually moving forward with no control, yet the levels were filled with detailed stuff and diagonal slopes despite the fact that he couldn't run them without getting hurt. Or the fact that Sonic couldn't handle a curve properly at all? Remember how it was so bad, that Sonic couldn't even remain consistent on platforms he ran on like those loops from Wave Ocean? How it was damn near impossible to steer him?

Remember in Unleashed, he finally had smooth control, and a new mechanic that allowed him to drift along tight areas? His Light Dash was functional, his wall jump was good, responsive and useful, as well as his other skills? They even designed so he can run on water if fast enough?

Remember in Lost World when um... He could run on walls and shit with the parkour and the tight block like movement?

Remember the sweet love Sonic made to the wall in Sonic R because you couldn't control him worth shit yet you still came in first place?

We've come a long way.

We had triangle titties, now they round.
 
SerTapTap

SerTapTap

Member
I'd find it interesting if they found some way to re-create the classic "faster routes on top, if you suck you fall to the easier, slower route" the Genesis games did, but in 3D. I don't think we need open-world sonic or anything, but the multiple paths made the genesis games very interesting in a way the 3D games aren't.

But then, I'm not sure how to accommodate that sort of design in 3D, because what's incredibly simple here in 2D (fall = slow path) has significant implications in 3D level design (the simplest solution would basically turn every level into a ziggurat)
 
E

Elija2

Member
WillyFive said:
Probably the best experience I have had with a 3D Sonic game was a fan game called Sonic Robo Blast 2, that had large open worlds and areas where you were free to run around with great sleep and explore the world; even despite the simple Doom-engine graphics.

So yes.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that game is the best example of what I think a 3D Sonic game should be.
 
Z

zero shift

Banned
While I would prefer skatepark, the problem with the Sonic games isn't that they are too linear, the problem is that they are just terrible games. It's just not a 3D thing, even Sonic 4 was horrible touch controls or not. In order for Sonic to get back to his glory days, Sega needs to start treating the franchise like Nintendo treats mainline 3D Mario games, which is with tons of care.
 
S

Sami+

Member
Arc Christelle said:
Honestly I think SA1 was a terrible 3D entry. Level designs were interesting and but kinda meh at the same time.
Click to expand...

SA1 has a lot of faults, and there are some levels I find to be complete chores (Lost World), but when it works, it REALLY works imo. Speed Highway just feels right. It's a good baseline for a core formula when considering its the first 3D entry the series got.

It's dated but it can be learned from imo.
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
Discoid said:
SA1 has a lot of faults, and there are some levels I find to be complete chores (Lost World), but when it works, it REALLY works imo. Speed Highway just feels right. It's a good baseline for a core formula when considering its the first 3D entry the series got.

It's dated but it can be learned from imo.
Click to expand...

True, I think if I had played that before SA2 I probably would've loved it a lot more. Same goes with OG Jet Set Radio, which I still love, but know it's flawed.

EmptySpace said:
stick to 2d.


the 3d games are awful. the essence of platforming is lost because all you do is push the stick forward and watch sonic blaze through the level. not to mention you always get these sweeping shots of sonic being launched up in the air.

the 3d levels are limiting the platforming, not opening it up. how and why? almost always there's only one way to go about. there's this much open space but you don't use the whole 3d space for platforming and gameplay. you just use this specific path.
Click to expand...

Get a copy of Unleashed and play

Empire City Day
Adabat Day

and Shamar Day.

Or even better, majority of the Generations levels. You'd be surprised at how often you'll die or fuck up.
 
E

EmptySpace

Banned
stick to 2d.


the 3d games are awful. the essence of platforming is lost because all you do is push the stick forward and watch sonic blaze through the level. not to mention you always get these sweeping shots of sonic being launched up in the air.

the 3d levels are limiting the platforming, not opening it up. how and why? almost always there's only one way to go about. there's this much open space but you don't use the whole 3d space for platforming and gameplay. you just use this specific path.
 
T

Tookay

Member
Arc Christelle said:
What you mean nothing? They've released various games in 3D with varying degrees of quality.
Click to expand...

What do you want me to say exactly? Of course I'm being hyperbolic when I say "nothing."

You summed it up in your following paragraphs: they keep throwing out their control systems between games or focusing on weak modes of traversal because they don't have a strong grasp on how a fast character should move in three dimensions.

I'd argue that there should be more focus on actual conservation of momentum and using the physical space to build it than just automating things with instant speedbursts, loops, lock-ons, boost pads, and putting things on rails/tracks.
 
A

Arc Christelle

Member
Tookay said:
What do you want me to say exactly? Of course I'm being hyperbolic when I say "nothing."

You summed it up in your following paragraphs: they keep throwing out their control systems between games or focusing on weak modes of traversal because they don't have a strong grasp on how a fast character should move in three dimensions.

I'd argue that there should be more focus on actual conservation of momentum and using the physical space to build it than just automating things with instant speedbursts, loops, lock-ons, boost pads, and putting things on rails/tracks.
Click to expand...

But they do that AND what you ask for, it's not like you can just hit the boost button with out a direction and expect him to stay there. Empire City's "killer curve" is the best display of the importance of physics in the 3D entries for a reason if you don't time your drift properly, or go too fast, you'll sling yourself off the stage, while at the same time it's still possible to go fast around it with the necessary timing.

I personally think this. They had it with Unleashed/Generations, yet they still have people in their ear saying it doesn't work, they give into them, and make something worse in order to chase some idea of a Genesis 3D Sonic. While I don't think Lost World is a bad game, a part of me feels like it was unnecessary. But then again Sonic's this weird ass game about a fast hedgehog that people seem to not want to be about a fast hedgehog?
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
If you had the momentum physics down pat, then perhaps. Otherwise, linear with varying paths is generally the way to go.

HUELEN10 said:
Lost World proved the opposite is the case. Sonic games need to be less open, yet still wide, and Unleashed is proof of this. One of the many reasons it's superior to Generations and Colors IMO.
Click to expand...
Lost World was pretty linear, so I'm not sure how it's a mark against open-ended level design.
 
T

TheOGB

Banned
I think the Uncolorations route was a good way to go, but it clearly wasn't efficient to make less than 10 levels that huge and detailed that you zoom past in 2 or 3 minutes. There's a really delicate balance Sonic Team needs to strike to make Sonic work in 3D, and I don't think simply making the levels more open would help that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

IGN: Top 10 Best Super Mario Levels of All Time
Opinion Trailer
5
1K
Robb replied
Do you view Level Design in Level-Based games in the same lens as Open-World games and if yes/no how do you differentiate between them?
Opinion Cringe Analysis
28
2K
brian0057 replied
  • Poll
SONY/SIE: The Balance Of Chasing Margins, Multiplat Expansion, And Maximizing The Console
Opinion Business Analysis 2 3
101
6K
vaibhavpisal replied
PlayStation Devs explain 3D Audio, Sound Design, Haptics, & Returnal
Game Dev
12
3K
BadBurger replied
Psychonauts 2 is a masterclass in level design
Opinion 2 3
110
8K
SF Kosmo replied
Top Bottom