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Do you think 3D Sonic could be better if they tried more open level design?
- Thread starter Slamtastic
- Start date
Arc Christelle
Member
Perfection. This is the direction Sonic needs to go.
I thought that Lost World actually had the right idea/balance between content (various pathways and methods to allow players to freeform down a set path) and directing players forward when judging it based on levels like Windy Hill act 1, Windy Hill Act 3, Honeycomb Highway/Desert Ruins Act 2, and Sky Road Act 1. Lost World had the right idea about making "open" levels in that they should allow for varied paths that you could use basic and advanced platforming skills to reach but also funnel to a clear end point to leverage the thrill of going fast with Sonic. At the same time, it also showed that Sega still has issues with making levels with too much flat area to traverse with nothing going on (see Desert Ruins Act 1).
Watching the videos from this LP actually makes me feel even more strongly that if Sega tightens the mechanics they introduced in this title down while bringing the parts from the boost trilogy that make sense (quick step, more variable speed tiers between run, spindash and boost) and making sure that every level of the next game is full of alt routes and genuinely interesting things to do on said routes, they'll really have some magic on their hands.
I'd like to play a Sonic game that was both really open and also just really vast. Sonic blasting down a narrow corridor is okay I guess, but why not have him covering huge distances? Blazing across massive valleys and fields and leaping to platforms that are tens or hundreds of meters across rather than a few feet?
The one feeling I've got from every Sonic game I've ever played, including the originals, is that the worlds were too crowded with stuff to ever really cut loose and just go fast. There's always an enemy or a piece of geometry waiting to get in the way.
Sonic to me sometimes feels like the sports car you're stuck just driving around town in. I wanna hit the highway from time to time, damn it.
The one feeling I've got from every Sonic game I've ever played, including the originals, is that the worlds were too crowded with stuff to ever really cut loose and just go fast. There's always an enemy or a piece of geometry waiting to get in the way.
Sonic to me sometimes feels like the sports car you're stuck just driving around town in. I wanna hit the highway from time to time, damn it.
I'm sorry man, but its hard to take your opinion on Sonic seriously when you were trying to downplay how awful Boom is.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
I just want to be able to PLAY this. Is that too much to ask goddamnit?
Imagine these fields below are your playground. Mother of God, Sonic would be saved.
Gimmie.
Go anywhere. Tricks build momentum. Chain Parkour moves to reach untold speeds.
Ignore this silly pseudo Sonic Xtreme pipe levels nonsense. The real stage is below all that in the background. Imaging if you could go anywhere on that background.
THIS.
Imagine these fields below are your playground. Mother of God, Sonic would be saved.
Gimmie.
Go anywhere. Tricks build momentum. Chain Parkour moves to reach untold speeds.
Ignore this silly pseudo Sonic Xtreme pipe levels nonsense. The real stage is below all that in the background. Imaging if you could go anywhere on that background.
THIS.
Arc Christelle
Member
It's actually sad how close Sega got to actually making a game that played like this (Lost World) and how they botched it so much that people champion every other Sonic game over said game.
Still waiting.
Is that the newest Sonic game? Looks to be the best game since the Genesis titles. Seems Sonic Team finally did something right.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not opposed to a more open world, but linearity isn't the problem.
Honestly there's nothing about sonic that's causing a fundamental problem. Bad sonic games are simply the result of bad developers or publishers. It's as simple as that.
Honestly there's nothing about sonic that's causing a fundamental problem. Bad sonic games are simply the result of bad developers or publishers. It's as simple as that.
That's from the reveal of Sonic 06 lmao
Arc Christelle
Member
I think most people who still aren't satisfied with 3D Sonic wants this. I think it's possible, but the direction and design would probably be painstaking as shit, and Ironically I'd say the controls from Lost World maybe closer to what you want, despite the level design being meh.I just want to be able to PLAY this. Is that too much to ask goddamnit?
Imagine these fields below are your playground. Mother of God, Sonic would be saved.
Gimmie.
Go anywhere. Tricks build momentum. Chain Parkour moves to reach untold speeds.
Ignore this silly pseudo Sonic Xtreme pipe levels nonsense. The real stage is below all that in the background. Imaging if you could go anywhere on that background.
THIS.
lol is that sarcasm?
But racecar sonic works and Sonic 1 is fucking painful to play.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
The only issue I have with the idea of "open 3D Sonic" like what is being suggested in here is that while it'd be cool as all hell if the world was just a gigantic "Sonic skate park + pinball machine" and Sonic was designed to be blazing and acrobatic as all hell, would it be feasible to design something like that? I imagine it'd be the Unleashed day stage design woes X infinity for workload and designers to get right.
On a lesser note, how would traversing that world work so that it didn't become grating overtime as you moved between level objectives? I guess if Sonic Team/Sega wanted to give that a shot, Sonic could fill a niche Mario hasn't since Mario 64 in terms of sheer player character ability and compete there vs. the Mario series' increased focus on escalating level design and thus the entertainment value would come explicitly from moving Sonic around.
On a lesser note, how would traversing that world work so that it didn't become grating overtime as you moved between level objectives? I guess if Sonic Team/Sega wanted to give that a shot, Sonic could fill a niche Mario hasn't since Mario 64 in terms of sheer player character ability and compete there vs. the Mario series' increased focus on escalating level design and thus the entertainment value would come explicitly from moving Sonic around.
OverdriveOtaku
Member
Gimmie.
Go anywhere. Tricks build momentum. Chain Parkour moves to reach untold speeds.
Okay... this is the first fair point I've seen for open world.
I've seen this Sonic CD intro for years, but never thought "hey, what if the game levels were like that?" I'd certainly kick some dollars in to try it.
Arc Christelle
Member
I always got that feeling from the speed games.
IrishNinja
Member
...nah
not even the night levels, the fetch quest bullshit pushed Unleashed down a few notches, for me. ill give you that some of the daytime ones were the best since SA though.
Gunstar Ikari
Unconfirmed Member
All Sonic needs is a game full of Modern Seaside Hills. That level has more than enough exploration for me.
I mean, there's some potential in the Lost World formula, but even if said potential were fully realized I don't know if I would prefer it to Generations.
I mean, there's some potential in the Lost World formula, but even if said potential were fully realized I don't know if I would prefer it to Generations.
KOMANI
KOMANI
Wow man, I'm glad someone else sees the potential of that intro as well. Great job adding examples.I just want to be able to PLAY this. Is that too much to ask goddamnit?
Imagine these fields below are your playground. Mother of God, Sonic would be saved.
Gimmie.
Go anywhere. Tricks build momentum. Chain Parkour moves to reach untold speeds.
Ignore this silly pseudo Sonic Xtreme pipe levels nonsense. The real stage is below all that in the background. Imaging if you could go anywhere on that background.
THIS.
Man, even this tech demo looked bad. Never mind the weird models and animation, but they show a huge open field only to have Sonic run in a perfectly straight line.
I feel like even in those games, there was still something "missing" that would take the idea from a genuinely fun thing to something series redefining. If they return to the boost mechanics, I hope they also iron out the kinks in the parkour mechanics they introduced in Lost World just because it would allow for some wild character action and means of bounding about stages.
PeakPoint's line specifically about (roll?) tricking off things to continue building momentum sounds brilliant and a game with geometry and level design that would allow for that much could be something really unique if someone puts in the work to design it.
Arc Christelle
Member
I would like a combination of ideas from SA2 [Timed Jumps], Rush [Tricking-freely without ramps], and Lost World's Parkour [Thinking about it, which could be seen as an evolution of wall running from Heroes.] Basically more score heavy things, along with a decent competitive system [one that can surpass the system from Sonic 2] that can show off the game's design at its best.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I think the mistake was assuming the series would be better in 3D in the first place. Go back to 2.5D and stop trying to be a soap opera.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Uh, no? Sonic is based around speed and momentum in obstacle course level designs. That can't be done in an open 3D space.
Momentum and speed go hand in hand with linearity.
wow, it's almost like you don't know what you're talking about
Momentum and speed go hand in hand with linearity.
wow, it's almost like you don't know what you're talking about
Gunstar Ikari
Unconfirmed Member
lol, Sonic's plots has been goofy Cartoon Network-esque crap for at least four years now.
Arc Christelle
Member
PeakPointMatrix
Member
I'm sorry, did you mean to post this in a thread from 8 years ago?
How embarrassing.
While the level design concern is a valid one, it can be solved with proper pacing of stage elements and fun traversal for long stretches of land. For example think Spiderman 2 on the PS2. Webslinging across NYC was extremely intuitive and structured to take advantage of your environment for movement. Once you mastered how Spidey maneuvered, getting from point A to point B became an absolute blast. It could be done quickly, with style, and a maturing move set that you upgraded kept it all interesting. Imagine a mountain in an open world Sonic game you once had to travel between the crevices and walls to get to the other side at the beginning, and by the end of the game you have grown and upgraded to the point you could simply leap over it with enough momentum.
Pockets of "stages" and obstacle courses scattered around the game field would act as destinations, with much more contained platforming and momentum based exploration. Little oddities, discoveries and enemy types would be scattered across the open fields as you travel to your endpoint, acting as submissions or side-quests.
I dunno, it's almost overwhelming how ripe an open world Sonic game is for ideas. I could write an entire design document right now if I had the time. I almost want to sketch it out.
PeakPointMatrix
Member
dp
MegamanPoweredUP
Member
I thought about this so many times. I come to the conclusion that there's no hope for Sonic.
Since he's designed to be fast, every 3D level will feel too damn little and narrow. I fill like, they just don't have the power to make it work.
It's like a Pokémon mmorpg. It would be so cool but they don't have the power to do it.
By the way, I think we already had a real 3D sonic. Imo Spyro for Ps1 was exatly that.
Since he's designed to be fast, every 3D level will feel too damn little and narrow. I fill like, they just don't have the power to make it work.
It's like a Pokémon mmorpg. It would be so cool but they don't have the power to do it.
By the way, I think we already had a real 3D sonic. Imo Spyro for Ps1 was exatly that.
I just want to be able to PLAY this. Is that too much to ask goddamnit?
Imagine these fields below are your playground. Mother of God, Sonic would be saved.
Gimmie.
Go anywhere. Tricks build momentum. Chain Parkour moves to reach untold speeds.
Ignore this silly pseudo Sonic Xtreme pipe levels nonsense. The real stage is below all that in the background. Imaging if you could go anywhere on that background.
THIS.
I'd love to see this but there would be some problems with world size. I think it would need to be pretty huge for Sonic's speed. Though maybe they could do something like when you reach the end of the map you just loop back around as if you traveled the entire world. But I dunno how well that could be done. The world would definitely need to be seamless so no momentum is lost.
I think 3D Sonic could be better if they tried. Period.
Adventure/Unleashed(day)/Colors/Generations were all perfectly fine formulas to build a franchise on. Whenever 3D Sonic goes bad, it's almost been entirely the fault of either an unpolished product, or an insistence of dumb side gimmicks that are never as good as the core Sonic gameplay that is created.
Sega needs to make quality a priority for Sonic to be good. But they keep screwing that up.
There's no need for the series to revert to 2D, because if they do that, Sega may just churn out crappy 2D games instead.
Adventure/Unleashed(day)/Colors/Generations were all perfectly fine formulas to build a franchise on. Whenever 3D Sonic goes bad, it's almost been entirely the fault of either an unpolished product, or an insistence of dumb side gimmicks that are never as good as the core Sonic gameplay that is created.
Sega needs to make quality a priority for Sonic to be good. But they keep screwing that up.
There's no need for the series to revert to 2D, because if they do that, Sega may just churn out crappy 2D games instead.
Arc Christelle
Member
If you ever take the time I'd be willing to listen and bounce ideas. A good place to start would be thinking about how an open world Sonic can be a great game in terms of functionality over concept.
Arc Christelle
Member
Mostly due to the skill demand of the daytime stages and visuals. Generations would've been better than Unleashed imo if it had a stronger replay value and an actual demanding ranking system. Shit gives out S's for free. Unleashed keeps it real.
Polioliolio
Member
Wow, that video from the OP is great.
That's the kind of Sonic game I could go for.. Adventure had jank, let's be honest, but it also had stages that were in low poly 3D and yet still were very traversable and attractive. Maybe Sonic's decline started with Adventure, but it's clear they still had a lot in order then and it slowly went down hill from there.
The new generation of Sonic games are a desperate attempt at a revival that consistently fail or just get it wrong. Even if Sonic Colors is good, just go back to the Sonic Adventure Sonic model like in the beta video in the OP. That is some proper shit. You don't need to make his legs longer than that and make him moan about something. Just have him running in a colorful 3D world.
That's the kind of Sonic game I could go for.. Adventure had jank, let's be honest, but it also had stages that were in low poly 3D and yet still were very traversable and attractive. Maybe Sonic's decline started with Adventure, but it's clear they still had a lot in order then and it slowly went down hill from there.
The new generation of Sonic games are a desperate attempt at a revival that consistently fail or just get it wrong. Even if Sonic Colors is good, just go back to the Sonic Adventure Sonic model like in the beta video in the OP. That is some proper shit. You don't need to make his legs longer than that and make him moan about something. Just have him running in a colorful 3D world.
MisterGrey3000
Member
Nah, a more open structure within the stages won't mean a damn thing if the devs aren't talented and skilled enough to also create a nice harmony between great level design and satisfying player mechanics with good game feel.
I mean that's the problem right there; Sonic Team has never been able to nail the player mechanics.
This isn't because of ridiculous notions like "Sonic's gameplay is impossible to transition into 3D!" or "Sonic's concept was always flawed!" there are plenty of times in modern 3D Mario games where the player has to control a fast moving object through a superbly designed obstacle course (Like This or this or even this.) and those moments feel great thanks to the satisfying player mechanics. I think the real gist of it is Sonic Team never wants to commit; they're either throwing away perfectly good templates (SA2's Sonic mechanics/level design and Unleashed/Colors/Generation's Sonic mechanics/level design) or they're distracting themselves with clunky non-platforming/semi-platforming gameplay styles (Big's fishing levels, Knuckle/Rouge's semi-open treasure hunting levels, Werehog's God of War style levels, etc.)
This is really annoying to say the least...
I really think that Lost World could have have been fantastic if they had just copied, refined, and added onto the player mechanics and level design that was featured in Colors/Generations.
There was no need to start over from scratch; especially when you consider the tight schedule Sonic Team is on.
I mean that's the problem right there; Sonic Team has never been able to nail the player mechanics.
This isn't because of ridiculous notions like "Sonic's gameplay is impossible to transition into 3D!" or "Sonic's concept was always flawed!" there are plenty of times in modern 3D Mario games where the player has to control a fast moving object through a superbly designed obstacle course (Like This or this or even this.) and those moments feel great thanks to the satisfying player mechanics. I think the real gist of it is Sonic Team never wants to commit; they're either throwing away perfectly good templates (SA2's Sonic mechanics/level design and Unleashed/Colors/Generation's Sonic mechanics/level design) or they're distracting themselves with clunky non-platforming/semi-platforming gameplay styles (Big's fishing levels, Knuckle/Rouge's semi-open treasure hunting levels, Werehog's God of War style levels, etc.)
This is really annoying to say the least...
I really think that Lost World could have have been fantastic if they had just copied, refined, and added onto the player mechanics and level design that was featured in Colors/Generations.
There was no need to start over from scratch; especially when you consider the tight schedule Sonic Team is on.
Polioliolio
Member
Mario now Sonics better than Sonic. Come on Sega,
Sonic developers could learn a lot from Mario 3D World.
No, it was a concept video from E3 2005 (shown behind closed doors).
Arc Christelle
Member
I guess that's a nicer way of looking at it. I remember being young, wanting to believe. Transitional Stages, a chance of a game that surpasses the standard set by SA2......
captmcblack
Member
I just want to be able to PLAY this. Is that too much to ask goddamnit?
Imagine these fields below are your playground. Mother of God, Sonic would be saved.
Gimmie.
Go anywhere. Tricks build momentum. Chain Parkour moves to reach untold speeds.
Ignore this silly pseudo Sonic Xtreme pipe levels nonsense. The real stage is below all that in the background. Imaging if you could go anywhere on that background.
THIS.
*sigh*
We'll never get that game, and it sucks so bad...it probably costs way too much money to make this game, make it playably good, work out the kinks, populate the world in a logical way and also make the amount of money that justifies the cost of making that game.
The way to fix Sonic games is to completely overhaul the player's tools, not the obstacles they face.
The current Sonic moves and abilities are a mess which lead to bad level design. There's a ton of baggage in the tools you're given which come from a lot of poor choices made in the past - most of which stem from a misplaced notion that Sonic needs to go fast rather than the idea that Sonic can go fast.
Returning Sonic's speed to a momentum-based risk/reward scenario rather than the current "give Sonic as many tools as possible that make him fast" nonsense it has become would go a long way toward making the games better. Once you have those fundamentals down, the rest of the game and level design will follow.
The current Sonic moves and abilities are a mess which lead to bad level design. There's a ton of baggage in the tools you're given which come from a lot of poor choices made in the past - most of which stem from a misplaced notion that Sonic needs to go fast rather than the idea that Sonic can go fast.
Returning Sonic's speed to a momentum-based risk/reward scenario rather than the current "give Sonic as many tools as possible that make him fast" nonsense it has become would go a long way toward making the games better. Once you have those fundamentals down, the rest of the game and level design will follow.
Arc Christelle
Member
I'mma need an reference for this argument.
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