A Link to the Past
Banned
I would say that personality is more important than appearance. It's weird and alien to me, the idea that it would be the other way around.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Would you be able to accept it if Link was reincarnated as a Gerudo woman?
- Thread starter A Link to the Past
- Start date
I would say that personality is more important than appearance. It's weird and alien to me, the idea that it would be the other way around.
Mango The Magician
Banned
I didn't say it was. I'm merely saying that you can't compare an art style change that didn't actually change the way Link looked to changing the way Link looked. Plus, Aonuma's already gone on record saying he wants to avoid another kind of backlash like WW, so yeah.
Plus a little backstory, when WW was first announced, I had no actual internet, so I found out about the game via a game magazine, and when I saw Toon Link for the first time, I did not find it repulsive, I saw Link and was excited for the game period, you want to know how I knew it was Link? Well since the only image I saw was a close up of his head which blocked out the hat, I looked at the familiar hair color, skintone, and hairstyle, and immediately knew it was Link; aka I was able to recognize Toon Link, despite not seeing him in the tunic.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
I've never played WW because I hate the art that much.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
Absolutely ridiculous. I and other posters have repeatedly explained why we believe that having more diverse representations of the protagonist in the series, and popular media in general, is a good thing and I even mention that that is the reason why in that post. From there, we proceed to the reasons how/why it could happen. Lore barely even figures in this and I don't know why you keep saying it's the basis of my arguments. These reasons refer to the gameplay and narrative structures used by the series. If the Zelda series had no continuity whatsoever the points would still be valid. Your point about other characters being represented differently is asinine. A female Master Chief would necessitate rebooting a sizable fictional universe and would end the story of the current protagonist. A female Link would have no impact on existing characters or fiction. Yes companies who own IPs can do whatever they want with them. There are reasons why they don't. This discussion is about which of those reasons apply to the Zelda series and which do not and what the implications of that are.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Why? If the lore doesn't factor into this, then you could easily swap MC and not have to change anything.
Any character can be anything.
It would not be Link any longer. Link is the "Hero" of the goddess, not Heroine. Just the same as Zelda is the reincarnation of Hylia, the goddess of Hyrule, not god of Hyrule.
They have assigned traits and assigned roles.
This type of chaos with the people begging for female Link is why I hate that Zelda timeline crap. It retconned the series into chaos.
A Link to the Past
Banned
This argument sounds like "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." Again, if there were strict rulesets of what Link could be, Nintendo would have never at any point consider a female Link - and yet, they clearly did.
blankempathy
Member
Scraping the bottom of the barrel are we? I mean for all we know link could be reborn male all the time because he originally was.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Are you still talking to me? Blocked.
Mango The Magician
Banned
When did they do this?
There are people who are begging the church to turn Eve into a man? The arguments are nothing alike.
The devs at Nintendo think up a lot of things. Most of which they ultimately decide are not the best course of action.
blankempathy
Member
And thats what happens when you can't have a rational conversation like two adults.
A Link to the Past
Banned
All I can say is that fans seem to have a weird objection to female Link that clearly doesn't exist in Nintendo, which gave enough consideration to the idea to design a female Link in the first place. The suggestion here is this: according to no games, Link must be a man. The silliest argument, especially when the only reason why they think that is because they imagined their interpretation of why Link's design is consistent.
Linkstrikesback
Member
Not really. I can't really see what "link" is keeping between his legs as a defining characteristic either way.
Besides: Links appearence is important. Hell, by the time Link between worlds comes around, Impa and Zelda have already become self aware of what happens based on the legends, that when a teenagerish boy shows up in a green tunic that looks like the paintings/stained glass in the palace, for with a message for the princess, they immediately give him one of the pendants locking away the master sword and refer to him as "The hero of our time".
And this is long before they would need the master sword or have much reason to suspect anything bad is happening beyond this random boys words, just based on the fact that he matches the legacy of the boy in the history books.
I don't know if they could beat you around the head with the idea that "link looks like this" any harder than that.
Really, they "could" swap links gender, but that would recieve a large backlash. This isn't really up for debate, it would happen.
All I know is, I wouldn't want to play a metroid game where I control someone other than Samus, just to get some more gender representation in the franchise. Say, Anthony came across a power suit or the Galatic federation engineered one that can use chozo technology, Functionally everything would be the same, but it would still feel wrong.
Besides all that: Why not just make zelda the playable character if they wanted to have a female player character? That seems like the really obvious choice of direction in the first place.
Mango The Magician
Banned
That design was rejected, and it was likely proposed not by Nintendo but by Tecmo Koei.
balgajo
Member
Did they? Do you have a source? The only thing I know is that Tecmo did, but Nintendo rejected the idea of Linkle.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Gender is not defined by what is between someone's legs. Gender is defined by how a person identifies. If Link is a woman, he will be treated as a woman. As far as Zelda shows, women are less physical, and have certain roles. Malon is a farm maiden, Zelda is a princess, and typically, the writers use the way gender differences work in Hylian society to use characters defying those roles to surprise players.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I still don't get how there can be such a huge debate about this that's turning to insults being hurled at each other.
Just give people the option of having Link male or female alongside changing his name, which in the end would slightly change an already ambiguous character design and change all instances of 'he' to 'her'. If it goes against your personal image of the series' lore and timeline, just ignore the options and keep him male. Are people
calling him stupid shit like Dicks McGee in-game ruining the integrity of the game's story?
Just give people the option of having Link male or female alongside changing his name, which in the end would slightly change an already ambiguous character design and change all instances of 'he' to 'her'. If it goes against your personal image of the series' lore and timeline, just ignore the options and keep him male. Are people
like me
It's pretty patronizing for you, who clearly doesn't want it to happen, to declare that there's no value in it for anyone. There are people who think and feel differently than you.
Fear-mongering...in a Legend of Zelda thread..
This is a very generous recollection of the reaction to the WW reveal.
The artstyle change of WW dramatically changed the tone of the entire game (including the behavior of the characters), and that's exactly what people back then raged about, because it wasn't "Mature Zelda", the way it was 'supposed to be'.
Toon Link and WW did not ruin Zelda, it actually helped expand it and make it more diverse, becoming kind of its own thing alongside the other explorations of the topic in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. The rage was silly then and it's silly now with the talk of the hypothetical girl-Link changing/ruining the Zelda series.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Much, Like I said earlier in the thread, I really don't think there are gender roles in Zelda, I mean it has one of the only mythologies I can think of off hand where it involves nothing but strong woman, doing whatever the hell they want, and considering Hylia and Impa, I don't think there's much to say that woman are shown as less physical.
A Link to the Past
Banned
You keep saying that, but
In OoT, knights are male. In OoT, craftsmen are male. Impa is an incredibly obvious exception, where women are typically:
1. Saria, a passive assistant to Link
2. Ruto, a spunky - but non-physical - Princess
3. Anju, a chicken farmer
4. Malon, a cow farmer
5. Zelda, a Princess (young)
6. Mamu Yan, a dog owner
7. Little girl, a chicken-chaser
8. Girlfriend, a girlfriend
Yeah, you have the Gerudo, and you have Impa, and you have Zelda, but all three of these characters/character types feels like a juxtaposition to "standard" women, and it seems to not be a coincidence that all of them come from different races.
EDIT: There's also the fact that most races are not gender exclusive. Gorons are mysteriously all masculine - my head-canon has them as hermaphrodite men - and Zoras are androgynous but appear to be all male. The only ones that are gender-inclusive are Kokiri and Hylians.
Are people really begging for a girl Link? I don't think there is anything about that character that couldn't work as a female. If a narrative uses reincarnation as a main theme it's an easy step to reincarnate the character as a girl instead of a boy. It could be great.
But that's the thing with Link, as sort of a cipher there isn't great motivation to change the character at all. I'd like to see a new character in that world. Pull an MGS2 and let me play as a young character who meets up with/gets mentored by old man Link.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Simply because someone wants it is not an actual excuse to make it, I'll agree that there needs to be a female character, as I can see why that a legitimate problem, simply because someone wants something doesn't justify the the existence of that thing though. Likewise, there are no stories, scenarios, or gameplay ideas that would facilitate that Link must be changed, thus it's a visual change that's simply being made because it can.
The artstyle barely changed anything about the game at all, and again it's not comparable, I mean if the reaction to WW was actually bad enough that Aonuma had to swear that he'd be more careful, than guess what? An actual, visual change to Link, that would only be a visible change would be way more ridiculous. Plus hell there are still people who haven't gotten over WW, why do you think this which comparably would make WW look like a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, would somehow go over more smoothly?
Since when did we know the gender of all the Knights in OOT? Plus to be fair, the Zoras wouldn't have the same reporductive systems as humans since they lay eggs, personally, I think the TP Zoras are a better representation.
Umm, the female option the Pokemon games are never the same person as the male option, I don't think anyone is agaisnt being able to also play as a character who's a girl
A Link to the Past
Banned
Pokemon X/Y writes the story for both genders
So um
Yeah this is super easy and it's unreasonable to use "a tiny amount of extra work" as a reason to not have a dual-gender option :v
EDIT:
1. Because we can see them, up close. Unless all of the women are just conveniently off-duty?
2. They still wrote for gender differences. Why would being the same character make it different? Harvest Moon has you interact differently based on gender.
So um
Yeah this is super easy and it's unreasonable to use "a tiny amount of extra work" as a reason to not have a dual-gender option :v
EDIT:
1. Because we can see them, up close. Unless all of the women are just conveniently off-duty?
2. They still wrote for gender differences. Why would being the same character make it different? Harvest Moon has you interact differently based on gender.
Mango The Magician
Banned
1. We can see them all up close, and they all use the same model, we don't know what's under any of the helmets, any of their names, or any of their genders.
2. Why does it have to be the same character? it could easily just be Zelda.
Also, maybe I'm remembering wrong, but doesn't HM just change the people you can and cannot wed? It's the same general gameplay and story, right?
This isn't a thread about asking whether or not Zelda should have a playable female character, it's a thread about asking whether or not Zelda should change it's iconic and established 30 year old character. I, and no one else in this thread, would be against the inclusion of Zelda, or Sheik, or Impa, or someone new, we're against changing Link.
This thread is just starting to remind of me of that Assassin's Creed thread. Why can't there be a female option in that game? "Because all of these technical hurdles and extra resources needed"; "the animations all have to change"; " the gait of a woman is different"; "yeah, but bone structures and statistics"...and it's still a pretty busted game, after all that talk about not stretching the resources of a 10-team effort too thin.
Basically, any one of these threads, the ones where people ask why videogames have to default to male characters, will be met with excuse after excuse.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Nowhere ITT do I say "has to be female Link." The only people proposing a necessity towards which gender Link "should" be are the people who don't want Link top be female.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Then would you accept a playable Zelda?
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yes, because Zelda isn't defined by binary "only Link, and only one possible Link."
Mango The Magician
Banned
So what are you saying?
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'm saying "Link could be female." You're saying "Link shouldn't be female."
So do not entertain the notion of similar arguments - I'm not creating a standard for what Link "should" be, beyond defining him as someone who shouldn't be limited the way you're proposing.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Oh, I think I misunderstood you, I thought you meant that you just wanted a female character period. Alas, we are still are two separate pages.
balgajo
Member
Imo, The Legend of Zelda games are for Link the same that Tomb Raider games are for Lara Croft. I wouldn't buy a Tomb Raider with customizable character in the same way I wouldn't buy Zelda with customizable character. Lara Croft has some tweaks in her appearance in each iteration and so do Link. But both of them are easily recognizable. A brunette Link would be as much strange as a blond Lara Croft with blue eyes. I just want you guys to respect my opinion as much as I respect yours. If you don't think that Link is a character ok, it's cool for me. He is a character for me, and my favorite btw.
Also, Nintendo could do what they want with the character. Capcom changed Dante, didn't they? I doubt they will do it because after WW backslash Aonuma said that he will be much more careful about changes.
Also, Nintendo could do what they want with the character. Capcom changed Dante, didn't they? I doubt they will do it because after WW backslash Aonuma said that he will be much more careful about changes.
A Link to the Past
Banned
slavesnyder
Member
he should be reincarnated as tingle.
Mango The Magician
Banned
I feel like that's more of a dirty blond than brunette.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Oh come now. That would be the dirtiest blonde I've ever seen in my life. That's straight-up brown. And this is straight-up brown.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Well fairs fair, still in the same range though, and since then they have moved away from the brown hair, much in the same way the Mario went from black hair to brown, and Samus went from Green to blonde.
balgajo
Member
Uh
.png)
Except for the fact that I don't consider it brunette.
EDIT: Here in Brazil we usally call this brunette.
A Link to the Past
Banned
It's brunette. This feels like rehashing of "Impa wasn't a POC, she was just tanned." Out of the context of this discussion, people would call Link a brunette in LoZ.
Sure. The character of Link is like the absolutely least important part of the TLoZ games (at least for me).
He is 100% replaceable, literally a blank canvas. He doesn't speak, there is little continuity or character development about him. The thing I like most about him are his cartoonish expressions and every character could do those. Even the outfit isn't a must for me - I enjoyed playing Windwaker in his regular clothes.
What I enjoy in TLoZ games are exploring the world and the gameplay itself. Leveldesign. These things. I could enjoy them with a different character as well.
He is 100% replaceable, literally a blank canvas. He doesn't speak, there is little continuity or character development about him. The thing I like most about him are his cartoonish expressions and every character could do those. Even the outfit isn't a must for me - I enjoyed playing Windwaker in his regular clothes.
What I enjoy in TLoZ games are exploring the world and the gameplay itself. Leveldesign. These things. I could enjoy them with a different character as well.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Eh...there's so many different pieces of official art for the first Zelda, it's hard to determine what they were going for, I do think there's dome brown in it, but I don't really see as anything other than the precursor to what we have now.
Plus I mean Mario looked like this,
it's not all that ridiculous to say the details weren't hammered down back then.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'm not saying that the colour change wasn't valid, my point was that a user was saying that he would find it odd if Link was a brunette.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Well he made a point to say that he thought brunette meant black, and frankly it's not the first time I've heard that, I mean American Dad described Hayley as brunette once so maybe brunette is a scale or something, I don't know. I mean, I'm not really arguing about this, so sorry if I come off that way, I'm just saying.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
What.
Seriously I think you're deliberately misreading my posts. I said the lore of Zelda isn't the key to my arguments. Lore is different to narrative structures/continuity. I'm not talking about the philosophies of the goddesses or the Triforce in trying to justify a female Link, I'm saying that the lack of continuity in the series makes it an easily implemented option. You know, in direct contrast to more continuity heavy series like Halo.
I think the issue here is that you (and some other posters) don't agree that there is any benefit to having more diverse options for Link, yet recognise that there are few reasons beyond personal preference for not wanting those options and so are stuck in an awkward position arguing against people who do believe there is benefit but whose arguments are largely about how easily it could happen.
EDIT:
Yeah.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Let me ask you something, if MC was changed to a woman, ignoring that he's not one, would it change anything? Now I'm pretty sure he doesn't have kids, and I don't know the lore specifically, or at all, but is there anything about MC, other than him having a arching story that requires he be male? This is my point, a game rarely makes it a point to establish gender needs for it's characters, and most of them could be swap without any real damage. So with this in mind, Zelda a series from Nintendo, that will not make a point to have a political plot, has what in regards to changing his gender? Nothing, not a damn thing, which just leaves the ability to explore different gameplay options by the being influenced by a different race, which in no way facilitates the need to change him. So, I ask you, what exactly, does this offer that it would be worth experimenting with? Explain the benefits to me, the in game benefits, not the real world personal opinion benefits.