Kojirospath
Member
Looking at the responses in this thread I understand why fem link has not happened yet. Aonuma fears this kind of backlash. Funny enough a loli link would probably save zelda in Japan
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Would you be able to accept it if Link was reincarnated as a Gerudo woman?
- Thread starter A Link to the Past
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A Link to the Past
Banned
Master Chief is a single entity though. If Master Chief became a woman biologically, it would require a really stretchy justification. It would also be weird if Master Chief became a farmer, so isn't it weird for a Link to be a farmer?
The nightmare of having a new great Zelda game with a female Link is strong here.
At this point i just want a Female Link for the meltdowns, reading a dozens of desperate misoginist cry about female taking over the world and ruining their life while the rest of the world laugh or don't care would be delicious
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
No the character doesn't have to be male. But as I've repeated numerous times in this thread, unless a gender reassignment story is written into the game, creating a female Master Chief would create a new continuity, the new Master Chief would be a separate character to the prior one and an unfinished story would be being abandoned. The same does not apply to a game featuring a new Link who is or could be female, as almost every Zelda game is self contained and features a new character as Link. If Link was a strongly developed and recurring character, as opposed to an archetype with numerous incarnations, I would not be having this discussion with you.
You're right about the fact that a Zelda with a non white male Link would be unlikely to contain a strong commentary on the issues such a character could face in our society. In some ways, this only strengthens the benefits of diversity in representation when applied to the work. Yes we need stories that examine and reflect on social issues, but we also need simple stories that buck the status quo. This is especially important for works aimed at/accessible to younger audiences. Simply seeing that the hero doesn't always have to be a white male can be a powerful thing.
balgajo
Member
The nightmare of having a new great Zelda game with a female Link is strong here.
At this point i just want a Female Link for the meltdowns, reading a dozens of desperate misoginist cry about female taking over the world and ruining their life while the rest of the world laugh or don't care would be delicious
Yes, because most of people in this thread has a problem to play with a female character.
Yes, everyone who is against the idea hates women. Seriously, painting the opposition in a negative light doesn't suddenly make your opinion the correct one. Try to be respectful.
Mango The Magician
Banned
I'm not saying that it would need a justification, I'm simply asking if Master chief would change if his his gender was changed. Also, some characters are flexible, no one questions how Mario can be everything he is, so it's not a stretch to just pass by everything Link is.
A Link to the Past
Banned
It depends on society. Halo, if I recall, has female soldiers, but I don't know the rare of female to male soldiers. If there were far more male soldiers than female ones, I would imagine that Master Chief would be a markedly different character, because the implication that she would have to work harder to get to where MC is now is present.
Mango The Magician
Banned
We've already established that even if there were a lore idea in Zelda it wouldn't need an explanation, now why would MC need a explanation? If the lore of Zelda doesn't matter, and some people actually view Link as singular, than changing him would require a explanation despite what the lore says; I think this is where there's a difference in how we view this character, you consider him an archetype others don't, Nintendo is vague, meaning where in a stalemate. Furthermore, like I thought, you've failed to provide an example of how it could benefit the game, as simply saying it's a nice gesture is meaningless, not only because this nice gesture doesn't facilitate the need to actually change Link, as you could easy just have a female Gerudo friend help Link on his journey, but also because it resides in the realm of opinion.
A Link to the Past
Banned
If MC became a woman, the justification would be that someone took up the mantle. MC, being a character who is defined by his actions and his armour, could be played by basically anyone. Just like Thor or Robin.
SilverArrow20XX
Walks in the Light of the Crystal
There's a lot of them. Just from a quick glance I'd say the regular enlisted soldiers are maybe 1/4 to 1/3 female. It's about 50/50 with the Spartan IIs though.
thesolidshark
Member
Yeah, definitely one of the trends of this thread (especially that "No Girls Allowed" stuff)
I honestly think nearly everyone in here could accept Link with that kind of change, if Nintendo made it substantial enough instead of just making any kind of change with Link that big. The rationalizations on both sides have run deeper than I ever expected them to go, when all of it seems to come down to "I do/don't prefer it that way." No one's really wrong in their preference, and those interested will play either way.
And I guess my earlier questions were answered indirectly by some, but I feel like clarifying: So if any LoZ features a female Link somehow, if you believe Link has been a cipher for all of the franchise, you're fine with the female version being the same, to the point where you still couldn't tell gender just by sight? If your not fine with that, how would you prefer Nintendo acknowledge the new gender (physically, voice actress, dialog)? And lastly, would you have expectation of keeping a female Link in future LoZ or other Nintendo games (MK, Smash), or would you be alright with it going back to male in several titles after female Link?
That last question in particular is why I favor Zelda or a brand new character being playable over a female Link. I'm not opposed to a female Link, but I do wonder about her longevity due to public and fan base perception, sales, etc.
balgajo
Member
That's why I'll never buy Hyrule Warriors. I mean, the game is full of female characters and I hate them.
I bought
A Link to the Past
Banned
In that case, it would just be a capable soldier taking up MC's mantle.
I like that of the discussion has come back around in part to the idea of someone not Link, but still "the hero of destiny" route. Now with references to the female Flashes and the female Robins from DC Comics. Though I personally would have brought up Captain Britain of Marvel Comics (even less known of course), most are just different versions of the same brother or sister, but many that aren't at all and yet still a destined hero role.
If even part of the discussion switches from no longer saying "changed Link" and more "different person in the role and that type of outfit", well then these two really do deserve some appreciation for this franchise, the male and female options in Ancient Stone Tablets
Cute lad and lass aren't they? No Link for the game's story, so someone else fulfilled the role and it worked just fine still giving the core game play experience people seek in Legend of Zelda, and as always that is still key for many. Even if not "cannon", well it still serves as a good example it has been done without changing Link as a character. Yet Nintendo has never seen fit to do so again, and it's not story telling through a radio broadcast I'm talking about here. Oh well, still a precedent and I like looking at those two on GAF's dark style.
I must also say it's interesting reading this thread, while at the same time reading thoughts on the Shadow of Mordor free DLC, which allows players to use a character skin so that they can play in the main game world as a female. The main male character Talion skin is still present for all the cut-scenes, but for some who don't care about the story or have already gone through it, simply playing through the game world and combat itself as a female makes them happy and that's a valid reason to have done so I say. No NEED in this case to offer this female skin, but making people happy with their entertainment has merit on some level.
Not an option I would argue for in regards to Legend of Zelda, nor do I wish to dismiss those who think Mordor's DLC for playing as a female could have been much more and would pay (valid reason to do so) if it had been more, just noting an interesting parallel between the two fantasy game series and threads about them.
Now there in lies the rub for some. If a person asked me how they could play a Metroid (a game with that type of game play style and focus) with a male lead, I could easily point them to dozens of games such as Axiom Verge, but it's not that easy when one asks a Legend of Zelda with a female lead. Possible, but not as easy, usually not the same quality, or lacks the same resonance (e.g. Beyond Good and Evil is sci-fi, not fantasy, Okami is about a goddess wolf and not a humanoid).
I always liked to think of Tingle as sad what-if for what Link would be like if he had never gotten a fairy in Ocarina of Time.
At least in regards to Smash Bros, we know they could go the same route as Villager and Wii Fit Trainer, which have male and female skins to choose from. We have Lucina, who acted as a "Marth", and could easily disappear in the next game, but for now sits on the roster next to the previous Marth just like Toon Link sits next to [Twilight] Link.
From an outside the franchise point of things, easily fits in with established trends and behaviour and I also believe Nintendo would be more than happy to sell a Female Link Amiibo or other merchandise even if it's just for a limited time.
If even part of the discussion switches from no longer saying "changed Link" and more "different person in the role and that type of outfit", well then these two really do deserve some appreciation for this franchise, the male and female options in Ancient Stone Tablets
Cute lad and lass aren't they? No Link for the game's story, so someone else fulfilled the role and it worked just fine still giving the core game play experience people seek in Legend of Zelda, and as always that is still key for many. Even if not "cannon", well it still serves as a good example it has been done without changing Link as a character. Yet Nintendo has never seen fit to do so again, and it's not story telling through a radio broadcast I'm talking about here. Oh well, still a precedent and I like looking at those two on GAF's dark style.
I must also say it's interesting reading this thread, while at the same time reading thoughts on the Shadow of Mordor free DLC, which allows players to use a character skin so that they can play in the main game world as a female. The main male character Talion skin is still present for all the cut-scenes, but for some who don't care about the story or have already gone through it, simply playing through the game world and combat itself as a female makes them happy and that's a valid reason to have done so I say. No NEED in this case to offer this female skin, but making people happy with their entertainment has merit on some level.
Not an option I would argue for in regards to Legend of Zelda, nor do I wish to dismiss those who think Mordor's DLC for playing as a female could have been much more and would pay (valid reason to do so) if it had been more, just noting an interesting parallel between the two fantasy game series and threads about them.
Now there in lies the rub for some. If a person asked me how they could play a Metroid (a game with that type of game play style and focus) with a male lead, I could easily point them to dozens of games such as Axiom Verge, but it's not that easy when one asks a Legend of Zelda with a female lead. Possible, but not as easy, usually not the same quality, or lacks the same resonance (e.g. Beyond Good and Evil is sci-fi, not fantasy, Okami is about a goddess wolf and not a humanoid).
I always liked to think of Tingle as sad what-if for what Link would be like if he had never gotten a fairy in Ocarina of Time.
At least in regards to Smash Bros, we know they could go the same route as Villager and Wii Fit Trainer, which have male and female skins to choose from. We have Lucina, who acted as a "Marth", and could easily disappear in the next game, but for now sits on the roster next to the previous Marth just like Toon Link sits next to [Twilight] Link.
From an outside the franchise point of things, easily fits in with established trends and behaviour and I also believe Nintendo would be more than happy to sell a Female Link Amiibo or other merchandise even if it's just for a limited time.
SilverArrow20XX
Walks in the Light of the Crystal
They don't even need to "take" his mantle. They are already out there doing galaxy saving shit without MC. In the books of course. They could totally just make the games start following them if MC dies or something.
Sorry. I'm off topic.
balgajo
Member
One of Nintendo philosophies is to think about a new gameplay idea and then search for a existing character who fits that gameplay idea. Taking a gameplay that already exists(Zelda gameplay) and uses it in a character that people don't recognize as Link is totally the opossite of what they do. Sum this to the WW backslash, where people didn't recognized toon Link as Link, that would be an unlikely decision.
Mango The Magician
Banned
Gonna be honest here, even if they came up with a lore reason, I still wouldn't accept it, I just hate the idea of characters being changed, especially Link. So yeah, probably wouldn't buy the game either, wouldn't want to support the idea.
balgajo
Member
I would buy an used copy....XD
Did it retcon it or just give a focused point for all the vitriol to start coagulating?
That honestly was the closest thing to outright pissing me off (although the casual throwing around of 'misogyny!' wasn't really a bright point either...)
Seems that way.
The last point is something I've been pondering as well; what is 'enough' in the case for femLink? I'd hazard one game would be 'pandering', so that's unlikely, and then the question of when to change things back (which never really got answered as far as I can tell)
Same here.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Well the point is that if they felt that MC was something to keep going, that MC became a "legacy", that it could be worth having someone don the costume. Kind of like Lucina in Fire Emblem: Awakening, who disguises herself as Marth.
EDIT:
To all of whom would not buy a Zelda game with a female Link: did you buy Skyward Sword?
Mango The Magician
Banned
Karane, is not anymore a female Link than Saria or any of the Kokiri.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I have no idea what this post means
Mango The Magician
Banned
Were you not about to point out that the students of the Knight academy had similar outfits to Link, and that one of them was a girl? Or did I just assume that?
If I just assumed it, sorry, this argument is so circular that I've seen several people propose the same question then turn around and talk about what I was saying.
Regardless, I've been up all night, and I'm a little loopy, either way sorry. lol
A Link to the Past
Banned
No, I was saying that motion controls is just as much a departure from Zelda tradition as a female Link would be :v And for certain people, even worse, since it actually hugely diminished the Zelda experience for them
Jawmuncher
Member
Wouldn't mind at all.
Is there a rule that the hero of time has to be the same race every time?
People backlash the new. Look at wind waker that game went from backlash to one of the most loved entries.
Is there a rule that the hero of time has to be the same race every time?
Looking at the responses in this thread I understand why fem link has not happened yet. Aonuma fears this kind of backlash. Funny enough a loli link would probably save zelda in Japan
People backlash the new. Look at wind waker that game went from backlash to one of the most loved entries.
This post reads scarily close to a post I made ages ago in this topic. Only, I was sarcastic.
Nearest is aLttP referring to Link as part Hylian Knights' bloodline which is why he is destined to defeat Ganon.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Even still, Gerudo mate with Hylians, so a Gerudo child could have the Hylian Knights' bloodline.
Looking at the responses in this thread I understand why fem link has not happened yet. Aonuma fears this kind of backlash. Funny enough a loli link would probably save zelda in Japan
Lady Siara
Member
The past four pages of your post history are you explaining how vehemently against this idea you are. I think we all assumed as much!
You should still give it a try though, should it ever happen. You may even end up enjoying it.
Yeah, I'm supposed to believe someone with a vagina could swing a sword and push blocks? Please.
Granted, I don't think the character should literally be Link. But the series doesn't have his name in it, they could easily justify a broader stable of protagonists. He is iconic, granted... A better half-step would be a game that where a handful of other characters are also playable along the way (something like TP's Adventurers' Guild made to tackle a temple or two apiece rather than just standing around a bar would be a fine setup), and if one/some of them prove popular, give them larger roles in future games or center spin-offs around them.
Also, not sure where you came to the conclusion that Nintendo gave a fuck about the WW backlash. They saw the backlash with plenty of time to react and not only changed nothing, but went on to use that same Link design for significantly more games in the franchise than any other.
Good for you, but what bearing does that have on anything I said?
"Maturity, bitches."
Never has your tag been as appropriate. People really need to show maturity in discussions or you might as well not call it a discussion at all, it's just shit flinging if you start being disrespectful of other peoples views or trying to paint everyone who doesn't agree with you a bad person.
Dice//
Banned
I giggled x)
Almost perfect xD
The nightmare of having a new great Zelda game with a female Link is strong here.
At this point i just want a Female Link for the meltdowns, reading a dozens of desperate misoginist cry about female taking over the world and ruining their life while the rest of the world laugh or don't care would be delicious
Likewise even though I'm for the change.
I just think it's silly to say Link has to be male because he's the "Hero" of whatever in each game. He's only a hero because he's male. He's not male because he's a hero. It's a silly argument
Akhe
Member
Looking at the responses in this thread I understand why fem link has not happened yet. Aonuma fears this kind of backlash. Funny enough a loli link would probably save zelda in Japan
I just think it's silly to say Link has to be male because he's the "Hero" of whatever in each game. He's only a hero because he's male. He's not male because he's a hero. It's a silly argument
Silly is changing a well known and established characters to fit twisted social agendas instead of just making a new character or new game.
The meaning of phrase "don't fix what is not broken" is lost here.
evil monkey
Member
To the same folks who suggest a female Link, how would you feel if in the next Metroid game Samus was a dude? She could've stepped into a mine, her body got destroyed and they had to transfer her mind into the only host they could find, and it happened to be a male body.
If that sounds like the worst idea ever, is because it is. Keep this in mind when you suggest the same happening when the genders are reversed.
If that sounds like the worst idea ever, is because it is. Keep this in mind when you suggest the same happening when the genders are reversed.
I'd say a couple of things.
I don't care if Samus became male. Changes don't get under my skin like it does many people here. For example, I gave no shits about the Dante redesign.
My major criticism of it would just be that there isn't a problem with a lack of male leads in games, so I wouldn't see what it would be achieving. Also, the scenario is a bit different since Samus is the same character in all of the games, while Link isn't, and there's a perfectly reasonable plot explanation for why Link would be male in one game, and female in another.
Each Link is a different character, with no shared memory, personality, or body. They just wear the same clothes. No one is suggesting Link get lobotomized in the middle of a game and have his brain transplanted into someone else's body, even though this is still shockingly close to the beginning of Majora's Mask.
This is more like someone getting pissed because the reincarnation cycle in Avatar isn't restricted to men.
First there is no lack of strong male protagonists. Second, Samus is not a mystic hero who is resurrected into a literal new body each game.
Stupid example with no thought put into it.
Three things:
1) The lore may allow for this to be viable in-universe. The mainstream doesn't give a rat's ass about the lore, though, and will scratch their collective heads wondering why the hell the Link template they've known for decades is now a dark skinned woman for no apparent good reason.
2) I personally support more female protagonists wholeheartedly, but if we're gonna make a female playable in the Zelda games, why not, you know, Zelda herself, who could bring some damn cool gameplay additions with her magic knowledge, coupled with a potential Sheik mechanic? Or Impa, who's already badassery incarnate in Hyrule Warriors? I know I'd sooner play as an already established kickass lady in the series if we're going that route.
3) The element of familiarity and attachment to Link's character, addressed as well in the first point, and marvelously detailed by Giever in this post.
1) The lore may allow for this to be viable in-universe. The mainstream doesn't give a rat's ass about the lore, though, and will scratch their collective heads wondering why the hell the Link template they've known for decades is now a dark skinned woman for no apparent good reason.
2) I personally support more female protagonists wholeheartedly, but if we're gonna make a female playable in the Zelda games, why not, you know, Zelda herself, who could bring some damn cool gameplay additions with her magic knowledge, coupled with a potential Sheik mechanic? Or Impa, who's already badassery incarnate in Hyrule Warriors? I know I'd sooner play as an already established kickass lady in the series if we're going that route.
3) The element of familiarity and attachment to Link's character, addressed as well in the first point, and marvelously detailed by Giever in this post.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Why? Zelda's int he same rebirth cycle that's apparently wide open for change even though Nintendo has never demonstrated such.
blankempathy
Member
Concerns about backlash is not why you shouldn't change link into a female. Its merely a point brought up for people to think about since people in favor of femlink's arguments seem to be "well it won't have an affect on the franchise". People advocating for a female link seems to think that you can change something and thats it but theres more to it then that. You say samus is the same character so the change doesn't make sense but so is link. He may be reborn and live different lives but hes still link. You'd rather acknowledge the "hero of the spirit" which is why Link is reincarnated over and over then the actual character of Link. Did you ever stop to think that they are one in the same? He's not just another male reborn with the heros spirit inside him.