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[Freshmaker]

Honestly the reasonings for why Link shouldn't be a female are on equal enough footing with those who think Link should be a female imo; I just wouldn't go into the "who's a misogynist" or "who's a misandrist" based on those preferences.

"Fresh, inclusive, interesting" is more of a hope the pro femLink supporters have. I doubt just a gender swap would be enough for a whole new LoZ game to rejuvenate the franchise. People are still fighting over how much personality Link (by each iteration or altogether) has.

It is interesting. I get the impression that most people talking about freshness haven't played the games in years.

That Nintendo is trying to be Disney and doesn't really care about 20+ year olds salt.

 

[Mango The Magician]

He said no connection.

Relation is a synoynm of connection, I don't see how that changes anything, because we still dont know what that entails.

 

[balgajo]

I'll be honest, it's been 18 pages and not a single person has made a coherent argument why Link shouldn't be female in Zelda U. All I'm reading is the same, tired arguments you see from the MRA/goober gate crew.

It would be refreshing, inclusive, interesting and falls perfectly in line with the original vision of the MC being a "link" to the player.

Half of gamers are women, it's high time they get their "link" to Hyrule.



Gamers don't make good development leaders. Look at how WW was initially received, and now it's a fan favorite. Developers need to ignore the pushback and do what they want.

The last time I saw a big Zelda fan survey Wind Waker was behind OoT/MM/TP, only ahead of SS.

Anyway, I don't know what you mean by coherent. Imo, The Legend of Zelda is Link's game. And one of the characteristics of Link, Nintendo's mascot, is being male. I really don't care about whatever bullshit the lore says, in the end I just want a game with what I recognize by Link. If Link was a woman I would want a Zelda game with woman. Is it really difficult to understand?

 

[jon bones]

Can that link not be the "Link"? Can the Link we all know retire and have a student take his place? Maybe a girl inherits the Triforce of Courage and has to save the day Mulan-style.

Just don't mess with Link, man. Is that so much to ask? Why should I have to construct an essay explaining this? Just because he doesn't talk and doesn't emote all that much doesn't make him any less of a character. Crono, Serge, and Gordon Freeman don't say anything, and yet they connected with legions of people. They became fan favorites. Hell, Samus never even showed a hint of personality until Fusion and she managed to attain untouchable, iconic status so why can't we do the same with Link? The connection some people have to the character is beyond story and lore. I'm not even sure if you can clearly define it, but why shouldn't it be respected? Link isn't just an avatar. Link is a Link and, yes, his looks and gender are part of that in the minds of many.

Honestly, I'm not sure why this is so surprising to some of you and why it merits arguing against. There's already scenarios laid out that would satisfy both camps.

There have been so many iterations of Link, though - why not one more? What would it take away from you to make one game with a female Link, considering how disparate the games are anyway?

Honestly the reasonings for why Link shouldn't be a female are on equal enough footing with those who think Link should be a female imo; I just wouldn't go into the "who's a misogynist" or "who's a misandrist" based on those preferences.

"Fresh, inclusive, interesting" is more of a hope the pro femLink supporters have. I doubt just a gender swap would be enough for a whole new LoZ game to rejuvenate the franchise. People are still fighting over how much personality Link (by each iteration or altogether) has..

I agree with a lot of this - it'll take far more than a female MC to make ZU an interesting game, and I am just talking about what I hope happens in ZU. Some people want a female Link, some people want the male Link. I just don't understand why it's being met with such ugly resistance.

It is interesting. I get the impression that most people talking about freshness haven't played the games in years.

That Nintendo is trying to be Disney and doesn't really care about 20+ year olds salt.

Freshness in terms of gaming, not the Zelda franchise itself.

The last time I saw a big Zelda fan survey Wind Waker was behind OoT/MM/TP, only ahead of SS.

Anyway, I don't know what you mean by coherent. Imo, The Legend of Zelda is Link's game. And one of the characteristics of Link, Nintendo's mascot, is being male. I really don't care about whatever bullshit the lore says, in the end I just want a game with what I recognize by Link. If Link was a woman I would want a Zelda game with woman. Is it really difficult to understand?

First hit on google shows it tied with OoT as the fan favorite: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/07/poll_which_is_the_best_legend_of_zelda_game

And yeah, it kind of is hard to understand. Toon Link and Link are distinct enough to warrant two entries in Smash, why not introduce a third? When people saw WW, Link was recognizable only because of his tunic, ears, sword & shield. That he was a white male was incidental, not a defining factor.

 

[plufim]

I've thought lately, the way to do this is to have the new Link be twins, male and female. The player then picks whoever they want to be, and the other is the kidnapped one.

Even plays into the story, say the triforce/spirit of the hero is split between them, so you need to find your twin to use their combined power to defeat ganon and OH DAMMIT I JUST WROTE FANFICTION

 

[Mango The Magician]

The last time I saw a big Zelda fan survey Wind Waker was behind OoT/MM/TP, only ahead of SS.

Anyway, I don't know what you mean by coherent. Imo, The Legend of Zelda is Link's game. And one of the characteristics of Link, Nintendo's mascot, is being male. I really don't care about whatever bullshit the lore says, in the end I just want a game with what I recognize by Link. If Link was a woman I would want a Zelda game with woman. Is it really difficult to understand?

Apparently it is. I mean Link changing the direction his hair is parted is apparently, on the same level as changing the basics of his character, and thus he "changes constantly."

Spoiler

I told myself I wouldn't be a part of this today, why am I here?

And yeah, it kind of is hard to understand. Toon Link and Link are distinct enough to warrant two entries in Smash, why not introduce a third? When people saw WW, Link was recognizable only because of his tunic, ears, sword & shield. That he was a white male was incidental, not a defining factor.

Toon Link being in smash is no different than Dr. Mario being in smash and he is a carry over of Young Link, which was a clone intended to pad out the roster. Likewise, I remember the first time I saw Toon Link, and all I saw was his face, not his tunic or hat, yet I was still able to immediately get hyped because I knew there was a new Zelda game coming, without actually reading any of the text next to the picture...now how did I do that exactly? How exactly was I able to recognize who was dressed up as the Postman, in the latest HW DLC, based just on a picture?

 

[Freshmaker]

Freshness in terms of gaming, not the Zelda franchise itself.

All these save Zelda threads have been for gaming in general and not the franchise itself? I learn tons of things that make absolutely no sense from this thread.

 

[jon bones]

All these save Zelda threads have been for gaming in general and not the franchise itself? I learn tons of things that make absolutely no sense from this thread.

I was referring to my own post. No idea what you're talking about.

 

[balgajo]

First hit on google shows it tied with OoT as the fan favorite: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/07/poll_which_is_the_best_legend_of_zelda_game

And yeah, it kind of is hard to understand. Toon Link and Link are distinct enough to warrant two entries in Smash, why not introduce a third? When people saw WW, Link was recognizable only because of his tunic, ears, sword & shield. That he was a white male was incidental, not a defining factor.

Sum blond hair, long sideburns, white skin and being male to your equation and that's what I recognize by Link.


ZeldaInformer did one in July with almost 6000 responses. Those were the results:

For example:

Still Naruto.

Not Naruto.

 

[Freshmaker]

I was referring to my own post. No idea what you're talking about.

I was referring to this thread strangely.

 

[A Link to the Past]

All that poll tells me is that recentism and 3D are very popular things for Zelda fans. Skyward Sword is not a better game than ALttP.

 

[balgajo]

All that poll tells me is that recentism and 3D are very popular things for Zelda fans. Skyward Sword is not a better game than ALttP.

I really love the 2D Zelda games(Minish Cap being my favorite). But 3D Zelda gives me a completly different vibe and I get totally immersed. I rate all the 3D above the 2D.

And Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask are the oldest 3D games and still rated above the others.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I really love the 2D Zelda games(Minish Cap being my favorite). But 3D Zelda gives me a completly different vibe and I get totally immersed. I rate all the 3D above the 2D.

And Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask are the oldest 3D games and still rated above the others.

That's why I said recentism and 3D.

 

[jon bones]

Sum blond hair, long sideburns, white skin and being male to your equation and that's what I recognize by Link.

For example:

[/IMG]

I don't watch anime but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. From what I understand, he is a character in 1 long running story. Zelda is, for all intensive porpoises, a series of individual, self-contained games.

Link had pink hair in one of his best games, btw. But I get what you're saying. We feel differently about what "defines" Link.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

We've already established that even if there were a lore idea in Zelda it wouldn't need an explanation, now why would MC need a explanation? If the lore of Zelda doesn't matter, and some people actually view Link as singular, than changing him would require a explanation despite what the lore says; I think this is where there's a difference in how we view this character, you consider him an archetype others don't, Nintendo is vague, meaning where in a stalemate. Furthermore, like I thought, you've failed to provide an example of how it could benefit the game, as simply saying it's a nice gesture is meaningless, not only because this nice gesture doesn't facilitate the need to actually change Link, as you could easy just have a female Gerudo friend help Link on his journey, but also because it resides in the realm of opinion.

You don't get to have a view here, Link is an archetype represented by multiple different characters. The boy who sails off with pirates to find his sister is not the same boy who was raised as an orphan in the forest. Nintendo isn't vague about this, they even made a timeline (though that is a piece of lore and unnecessary for my point, though it does strengthen it). The reason why you don't need an explanation for a future Link being female is the same reason you don't need an explanation for Link having a different story and background with every new title. This is not the case with consistent individual characters like the Master Chief, Aragorn, Nathan Drake or Cartman. Yes if MS/343i wanted they could make a new Halo title with a female Master Chief and offer no explanation, but as I've already said that would by definition (perhaps I shouldn't have said "requires" etc... in my previous posts) be creating a new continuity and abandoning the existing story/character. The same would apply if they merely, oh I don't know, changed Master Chief's history, setting and surrounding cast, like Nintendo does with Link in almost every Zelda game.

I'm not going to explain the above point again btw, so if you still don't get me save your efforts for other parts of the discussion. An individual representation of Link being female/Gerudo/Inuit/a talking rabbit does not change all Links and does not cause the "loss" of any existing characters. If you don't want the gender or skin colour of any future Links to change due to personal preference then defend that view, don't toss out misleading comparisons and red herrings.

Furthermore, like I thought, instead of weighing the benefits of having a little more diversity in the games against the sole downside of your own personal discomfort (here's something you mightn't believe, but I'd also notice such a change, and if it was optional I'd probably do my first playthrough as "vanilla" Link), you've decided that it has to be a need and also benefit the gameplay for some reason, even though no such standard applies to the status quo of Link being a white male. But sure, the nice gesture is meaningless because kids could be shown that if you're not a white male you can still be the friend of the hero.

I'll be honest, it's been 18 pages and not a single person has made a coherent argument why Link shouldn't be female in Zelda U. It would be refreshing, inclusive, interesting and falls perfectly in line with the original vision of the MC being a "link" to the player. Half of gamers are women, it's high time they get their "link" to Hyrule.

A bit of trivia is that although Nintendo does try to design Link/the game to accomplish this, that's apparently not the origin of the name.

 

[Mango The Magician]

I don't watch anime but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. From what I understand, he is a character in 1 long running story. Zelda is, for all intensive porpoises, a series of individual, self-contained games.

Link had pink hair in one of his best games, btw. But I get what you're saying. We feel differently about what "defines" Link.

Link never had pink hair, it's always been blond, expect for the first depiction of him, but I mean Samus had Green Hair when she started out, and Tails was orange, so it's not exactly some big major point to say he's changed.

You don't get to have a view here...

You know, when you start off like that, I fail to see why I should even give you the pleasure of reading the rest of your response. It's worth noting though, that I specifically asked you what it'd change for the actual game, in response to the asinine idea that is some how "freshens" Zelda, putting a stipulation on your own personal opinion of it in the real world or any real opinion of the change; it's not my fault that you misunderstood that.

 

[jon bones]

You don't get to have a view here, Link is an archetype represented by multiple different characters. The boy who sails off with pirates to find his sister is not the same boy who was raised as an orphan in the forest. Nintendo isn't vague about this, they even made a timeline (though that is a piece of lore and unnecessary for my point, though it does strengthen it). The reason why you don't need an explanation for a future Link being female is the same reason you don't need an explanation for Link having a different story and background with every new title. This is not the case with consistent individual characters like the Master Chief, Aragorn, Nathan Drake or Cartman. Yes if MS/343i wanted they could make a new Halo title with a female Master Chief and offer no explanation, but as I've already said that would by definition (perhaps I shouldn't have said "requires" etc... in my previous posts) be creating a new continuity and abandoning the existing story/character. The same would apply if they merely, oh I don't know, changed Master Chief's history, setting and surrounding cast, like Nintendo does with Link in almost every Zelda game.

I'm not going to explain the above point again btw, so if you still don't get me save your efforts for other parts of the discussion. An individual representation of Link being female/Gerudo/Inuit/a talking rabbit does not change all Links and does not cause the "loss" of any existing characters. If you don't want the gender or skin colour of any future Links to change due to personal preference then defend that view, don't toss out misleading comparisons and red herrings.

Furthermore, like I thought, instead of weighing the benefits of having a little more diversity in the games against the sole downside of your own personal discomfort (here's something you mightn't believe, but I'd also notice such a change, and if it was optional I'd probably do my first playthrough as "vanilla" Link), you've decided that it has to be a need and also benefit the gameplay for some reason, even though no such standard applies to the status quo of Link being a white male. But sure, the nice gesture is meaningless because kids could be shown that if you're not a white male you can still be the friend of the hero.

Wrap up the thread, guys.

We're done here.

You know, when you start off like that, I fail to see why I should even give you the pleasure of reading the rest of your response.

You would do well to read the bolded, for your education's own sake rather than his "pleasure."

I mean, he is right.

Yep, with my favorite character I'm egoistic enough to prefer them to mantain him the way he is than modifying him to teach something to kids. But anyway, it's not my decision in the end.

...holy shit, you're serious.

 

[Coffee Dog]

You know, when you start off like that, I fail to see why I should even give you the pleasure of reading the rest of your response.

Why? He's right; whether or not Link is a singular character isn't a matter of opinion. It is a fact. The only place where your opinion is relevant is in whether or not you like that.

 

[balgajo]

But sure, the nice gesture is meaningless because kids could be shown that if you're not a white male you can still be the friend of the hero.

Yep, with my favorite character I'm egoistic enough to prefer them to mantain him the way he is than modifying him to teach something to kids. But anyway, it's not my decision in the end.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Wrap up the thread, guys.

We're done here.



You would do well to read the bolded, for your education's own sake rather than his "pleasure."

I mean, he is right.

I did read the bolded, it doesn't apply to me as I never said it needed to be justified, I asked him in response to the idea that it'd "freshen the game" what exactly gameplay wise it'd change, I even made a point to explain that I wasn't talking about the real world, I was talking about the actual gameplay and the in-game specifics. Furthermore, newsflash, you don't need to change Link to do that, but apparently Link is the only absolute possible solution to the idea, because the other side wont compromise.

Why? He's right; whether or not Link is a singular character isn't a matter of opinion. It is a fact. The only place where your opinion is relevant is in whether or not you like that.

That's fair, and I agree there's no arguing that by the lore he's multiple, I don't necessary think I meant that, but that's how it came out; none of that means that he has to be rude.

Yep, with my favorite character I'm egoistic enough to prefer them to mantain him the way he is than modifying him to teach something to kids. But anyway, it's not my decision in the end.

Could just introduce a new character (new gameplay, representation, new lore, could be just as important and strong and iconic as Link) don't have to change Link, but apparently, that don't work, because it's not what the other side wants.

 

[thesolidshark]

I agree with a lot of this - it'll take far more than a female MC to make ZU an interesting game, and I am just talking about what I hope happens in ZU. Some people want a female Link, some people want the male Link. I just don't understand why it's being met with such ugly resistance.

The resistance is perspective. People have lived with Link having the qualities he's had for so long, including things like gender. But I think it got ugly when people started using the sentiment "it should" often, letting desires mostly dictate their arguments when most have already stated that it is possible and where they would stand if that game was made. That's what it's looked like to me.

Freshness in terms of gaming, not the Zelda franchise itself.

Well, the arguments of MC Zelda/Sheik or a brand-new character could still support that (probably if it's a mainline console entry), maybe more than just femLink. Any of the three bring some kind of freshness, but with all three options, I predict the following:

Zelda/Sheik as MC: the formula is changed greatly, audiences get to play Zelda which has been a dream for some for decades in a mainland title. Lots of support and praise, and maybe there's a stronger future effort from Anouma to always have her playable somehow, as an opitonal main character or more spin-off games for her through portable or outsourcing to developers.

Brand new female MC: if she has a strong-enough showing her first time out, mostly the same as Zelda. I doubt she'd replace Link forever, or for long at all, but fan demand would definitely keep her around in Smash and spin-off LoZ games.

femLink: one of the biggest gender-bending efforts in gaming ever, leaving some happy and other confused as to how and why the change. Before the femLink game, I would've hoped they put A LOT more emphasis on the lore that allows for new versions through reincarnation. I see the reception similar to WW where everyone is debating whether it was a good thing or not. She's liable to get a Smash appearance (what will they call her if her name is also Link?), and maybe some spin-off games if they keep that version up. But two possible negative points I see for those who wanted this is:
-how much her survival might depend on reception, even with Nintendo willing to do its own thing a lot.
-are the qualities of femLink enough for those pushing for female representation if she's really similar to the rest?
-how easy it will be for Nintendo to slip back into reincarnating Link as male, much to the dissatisfaction of anyone expecting a permanent change, creating more friction and polarization in the fanbase (if anyone cares about that). Not even sure how the media would react.

Part of me now wishes Anouma would've stuck with ZeldaU Link being female, just so we could have something on record for "what could've been." Would've been even more fun if we never knew Link was a girl until halfway through, the end, or if you find out on some side quest.

 

[blankempathy]

They specifically bring up that he's not the Hero of Time. The Hero of Time got completely removed from that universe when he was sent back in time and created a parallel universe. That's why he never shows up to stop Ganon.

Jabun:
If you have sought me out...it must mean
you have found the Hero of Time,
does it not?

KoRL:
Unfortunately, that is not so.

Jabun:
Then for what purpose have you come to
see me?

KoRL:
The one I have brought with me has no
connection to the legendary one.
And yet I sense great promise in the
courage that this one possesses.

Jabun:
Promise?
You suggest that I leave the fate of Hyrule
up to mere chance?

KoRL:
I do. It is the only way.
I see. Then I suppose it is up to the gods
to deem whether his courage is true.

The Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time who regrets that no one knows what he did in OoT and that he never got to pass down his skills. Plus the Light Spirits rob his grave so that TP Link can have his clothes so he has to wear a different outfit.

Thats right. WW Link is not the hero of time. Because remember at that point in the so called lore there was no "hero's spirit" or whatever they now use to refer to link as. Thanks to the flood and the amount of time that passed there was barely any information left to go on except for the "hero of time". The hero of time is a sub title anyways unique to that life he lived during OOT. And again at this point there was no official lore set in place saying that the original Link was chosen by hylia to be her warrior and thus would be reincarnated over and over again. Also why would the Link cycle end suddenly when he was sent back in time? Theres no reason why he would not be reborn. He simply wasn't until Ganon returned in WW. Hell even the sequel spirit tracks in that timeline has another link who looks exactly like wind waker link. Is that somehow a coincidence?
As far as the shade goes you're right that is the oot adults ghost. Still that doesn't mean Link himself isn't the one being reborn instead of specifically the hero's spirit. He has no memories of who he is yes and different backgrounds but he specifically continues to exist as Link. Not just as the hero's spirit.

 

[blankempathy]

You don't get to have a view here, Link is an archetype represented by multiple different characters. The boy who sails off with pirates to find his sister is not the same boy who was raised as an orphan in the forest. Nintendo isn't vague about this, they even made a timeline (though that is a piece of lore and unnecessary for my point, though it does strengthen it). The reason why you don't need an explanation for a future Link being female is the same reason you don't need an explanation for Link having a different story and background with every new title. This is not the case with consistent individual characters like the Master Chief, Aragorn, Nathan Drake or Cartman. Yes if MS/343i wanted they could make a new Halo title with a female Master Chief and offer no explanation, but as I've already said that would by definition (perhaps I shouldn't have said "requires" etc... in my previous posts) be creating a new continuity and abandoning the existing story/character. The same would apply if they merely, oh I don't know, changed Master Chief's history, setting and surrounding cast, like Nintendo does with Link in almost every Zelda game.

I'm not going to explain the above point again btw, so if you still don't get me save your efforts for other parts of the discussion. An individual representation of Link being female/Gerudo/Inuit/a talking rabbit does not change all Links and does not cause the "loss" of any existing characters. If you don't want the gender or skin colour of any future Links to change due to personal preference then defend that view, don't toss out misleading comparisons and red herrings.

Furthermore, like I thought, instead of weighing the benefits of having a little more diversity in the games against the sole downside of your own personal discomfort (here's something you mightn't believe, but I'd also notice such a change, and if it was optional I'd probably do my first playthrough as "vanilla" Link), you've decided that it has to be a need and also benefit the gameplay for some reason, even though no such standard applies to the status quo of Link being a white male. But sure, the nice gesture is meaningless because kids could be shown that if you're not a white male you can still be the friend of the hero.

A bit of trivia is that although Nintendo does try to design Link/the game to accomplish this, that's apparently not the origin of the name.

If Link was being reborn through out different periods of time would he have the same background? The same mother? Would he live in the same house? Of course not because things change over time. Just because he has a different back ground story that just means he was born into that situation at the time. He specifically wasn't a Kokiri because he's a reincarnation of his former self and that person was not a kokiri. The problem with the whole hero's spirit thing is that its so vague. Is the hero's spirit something that represents link or is link the hero's spirit? I mean it wasn't something injected into the original link since it merely appears the original one was given certain pieces of armor and weapons to fight with while simply being himself.

 

[Mango The Magician]

If Link was being reborn through out different periods of time would he have the same background? The same mother? Would he live in the same house? Of course not because things change over time. Just because he has a different back ground story that just means he was born into that situation at the time. He specifically wasn't a Kokiri because he's a reincarnation of his former self and that person was not a kokiri. The problem with the whole hero's spirit thing is that its so vague. Is the hero's spirit something that represents link or is link the hero's spirit? I mean it wasn't something injected into the original link since it merely appears the original one was given certain pieces of armor and weapons to fight with while simply being himself.

To be honest, you could argue that SS Zelda and SS Link are the base models that all their reincarnations follow, I mean that's the whole point of the SS Manga, in that, both Link and Zelda reincarnate as specifically the soul or image of both the first Link and Hylia, and both are for ever entwined.

The past four pages of your post history are you explaining how vehemently against this idea you are. I think we all assumed as much!

You should still give it a try though, should it ever happen. You may even end up enjoying it.

I was explaining that even if they tried to explain why he looked different that I still wouldn't accept it, in response to one of the far more tame posters saying that a lot of those who are against it would accept it if it were explained. Furthermore, I doubt I'd enjoy, the gameplay could be fine, but It still wouldn't be the same, a character I care for would have already been changed.

 

[Dice//]

Yep, with my favorite character I'm egoistic enough to prefer them to mantain him the way he is than modifying him to teach something to kids. But anyway, it's not my decision in the end.

Yikes... This is almost epitomizing the reason threads like this are made. It's not even the that issue is "that hot" but when these sorts of ugly/mean comments pop up.

You don't get to have a view here, Link is an archetype represented by multiple different characters. The boy who sails off with pirates to find his sister is not the same boy who was raised as an orphan in the forest. Nintendo isn't vague about this, they even made a timeline (though that is a piece of lore and unnecessary for my point, though it does strengthen it). The reason why you don't need an explanation for a future Link being female is the same reason you don't need an explanation for Link having a different story and background with every new title. This is not the case with consistent individual characters like the Master Chief, Aragorn, Nathan Drake or Cartman. Yes if MS/343i wanted they could make a new Halo title with a female Master Chief and offer no explanation, but as I've already said that would by definition (perhaps I shouldn't have said "requires" etc... in my previous posts) be creating a new continuity and abandoning the existing story/character. The same would apply if they merely, oh I don't know, changed Master Chief's history, setting and surrounding cast, like Nintendo does with Link in almost every Zelda game.

I'm not going to explain the above point again btw, so if you still don't get me save your efforts for other parts of the discussion. An individual representation of Link being female/Gerudo/Inuit/a talking rabbit does not change all Links and does not cause the "loss" of any existing characters. If you don't want the gender or skin colour of any future Links to change due to personal preference then defend that view, don't toss out misleading comparisons and red herrings.

Furthermore, like I thought, instead of weighing the benefits of having a little more diversity in the games against the sole downside of your own personal discomfort (here's something you mightn't believe, but I'd also notice such a change, and if it was optional I'd probably do my first playthrough as "vanilla" Link), you've decided that it has to be a need and also benefit the gameplay for some reason, even though no such standard applies to the status quo of Link being a white male. But sure, the nice gesture is meaningless because kids could be shown that if you're not a white male you can still be the friend of the hero.a

A bit of trivia is that although Nintendo does try to design Link/the game to accomplish this, that's apparently not the origin of the name.

Nicely put!

 

[A More Normal Bird]

You know, when you start off like that, I fail to see why I should even give you the pleasure of reading the rest of your response. It's worth noting though, that I specifically asked you what it'd change for the actual game, in response to the asinine idea that is some how "freshens" Zelda, putting a stipulation on your own personal opinion of it in the real world or any real opinion of the change; it's not my fault that you misunderstood that.

Would you prefer "this is not a matter of opinion"? I never said it would freshen Zelda or improve the gameplay so I don't know why you expect me to advocate for that position. I've been very clear that I believe the benefit of more diverse protagonists comes from the real world social impact it would have on the people, mostly children, playing the games. It's not my fault you misunderstood that.

 

[Freshmaker]

Would you prefer "this is not a matter of opinion"? I never said it would freshen Zelda or improve the gameplay so I don't know why you expect me to advocate for that position. I've been very clear that I believe the benefit of more diverse protagonists comes from the real world social impact it would have on the people, mostly children, playing the games. It's not my fault you misunderstood that.

Fighting a war for kids not cognitively developed enough to care about such a distinction.

 

[Dice//]

Figuring a war for kids not cognitively developed enough to care about such a distinction.

Oooooooh man.

...that's some logic

 

[WrenchNinja]

The Alternative being maintaining the status quo for arbitrary reasons

 

[balgajo]

Yikes... This is almost epitomizing the reason threads like this are made.

Coming from someone who posted the No Girls Allowed image without even understanding the context of discussion.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Would you prefer "this is not a matter of opinion"? I never said it would freshen Zelda or improve the gameplay so I don't know why you expect me to advocate for that position. I've been very clear that I believe the benefit of more diverse protagonists comes from the real world social impact it would have on the people, mostly children, playing the games. It's not my fault you misunderstood that.

That's great, all I asked you though is what it would change benefit wise for the actual game itself, not any real world benefits (which not only not facilitate that Link be changed, but I also made a point to literally say that I wasn't talking about them.) I misunderstood you however, as I saw "benefits" and assumed that you had a different position due to the circular and ridiculous nature of this argument, so I apologize. Finally, diversity is great, and I realize that it can help, but changing iconic fan favorite characters is not great, and it's not the only solution to this problem, it's one of many possible solutions, so I fail to see why this topic always turns into change Link vs don't change Link.

The Alternative being maintaining the status quo for arbitrary reasons

The alternative being, not changing an iconic 30 year old character just because you can or some handful of people want it, and instead just introducing someone new or making one the billion female characters playable.

 

[Dice//]

Coming from someone who posted the No Girls Allowed image without even understanding the context of discussion.

Of course I do, I've been here for *at least* 10 pages worth of it.
I just don't agree with your perspectives that Link is "one character", that he should and always shall be a man, or thinking his gender is like the most importantest thing.

I don't even care that much about this gender issue in some ways. I love the Zelda series and I will play it. But the series is stagnant and repetitive and has been "playing it safe" for way too long. I'd LOVE to see ANY change to the series, be it in Link's character, how they change the concept of Hyrule, or if the "Triforce-Triad" dynamic would EVER change which it allll tooo raaarely even bothers to.

And yeah, your post trumps my dumb picture choice, what you said was just pointlessly mean.

The alternative being, not changing an iconic 30 year old character just because you can or some handful of people want it, and instead just introducing someone new or making one the billion female characters playable.

Yes....a "handfull" only

 

[blankempathy]

Would you prefer "this is not a matter of opinion"? I never said it would freshen Zelda or improve the gameplay so I don't know why you expect me to advocate for that position. I've been very clear that I believe the benefit of more diverse protagonists comes from the real world social impact it would have on the people, mostly children, playing the games. It's not my fault you misunderstood that.

So the question becomes why does the legend of zelda have to be the series that leads this charge? I have nothing against playable females nor making zelda playable or a female protagonist in a zelda game but why change a series in order to promote a social issue? Because its popular? No ones saying don't be more inclusive to the female audience. I'd personally rather not see an established character being changed to promote equality when he's become an integral part of gaming for 30 years. He is the quintessential young boy who goes on an adventure to fight evil. The reasons aside from that I've seen are simply weak. "because you can change him" is not good enough nor is because it'll supposedly freshen the game up. Right because when I'm playing the legend of zelda I'll be reminded how fresh the gameplay is when i'm looking at a female. Some how having a character of the opposite gender equals fresh brand new experience!

 

[Heroman]

I always thought that the recantation thing is that both hylia and Demis would recante but a hero,link, and always come to same the day.

 

[jon bones]

Yikes... This is almost epitomizing the reason threads like this are made. It's not even the that issue is "that hot" but when these sorts of ugly/mean comments pop up.

Yep, as depressing as it is to read some of these posts at least we are having the discussion. That's gotta count for something :/

Fighting a war for kids not cognitively developed enough to care about such a distinction.

woooooosh

 

[Mango The Magician]

Yes....a "handfull" only

Are we to assume that literally everyone of a different race or gender want this? That seems a little presumptuous on your part. I mean do you have a poll, can you say it's not a minority of fans? Because to me, if it's been 30 years and this is the first time I've heard of it, my first assumption is that the "yes" people are relatively small.

I always thought that the recantation thing is that both hylia and Demis would recante but a hero,link, and always come to same the day.

SS does kinda make a point to say that all Links and Zeldas are visually based on each other, at least through the symbolism in the plot, but what Demise says is just well, it's just vague enough to really mean anything.

 

[Freshmaker]

Oooooooh man.

...that's some logic

My 2 year old nephew spent a week carrying around a picture of Shakira while saying "dada". That isn't a logical leap at all.

People trend to ascribe social programming to kids that they simply aren't equipped to process.

 

[Heroman]

Are we to assume that literally everyone of a different race or gender want this? That seems a little presumptuous on your part. I mean do you have a poll, can you say it's not a minority of fans? Because to me, if it's been 30 years and this is the first time I've heard of it, my first assumption is that the "yes" people are relatively small.

Me , before the link is a girl thread I never heard people wanted link to be a girl.

 

[Dice//]

Are we to assume that literally everyone of a different race or gender want this? That seems a little presumptuous on your part. I mean do you have a poll, can you say it's not a minority of fans? Because to me, if it's been 30 years and this is the first time I've heard of it, my first assumption is that the "yes" people are relatively small.

Well shit I'm sure not all black people like Barack Obama, or all girls in the world want to play with boys toys. You're being COMPLETELY black and white. And a lot of posts here have been, if not the usual here, then people popping in to say they want Link as-is or still a lot of other people hoping for the dynamic changed in some way.

EDIT:
SEE??? V

 

[Jharp]

There's been several Links. I see no reason why one can't be a woman.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Well shit I'm sure not all black people like Barack Obama, or all girls in the world want to play with boys toys. You're being COMPLETELY black and white.

I asked you if you had a poll to determine whether or not it wasn't just a handful, and none of this is to say what portion of that handful be it a handful would be perfectly happy with something other than what's being proposed.

There's been several Links. I see no reason why one can't be a woman.

Don't mean to jump on you, so please note that this isn't geared towards you specifically, but those "several Links" you mentioned are only really several by the lore of the series, the actual design of the character is no different than any other character like Mario or Yoshi, or DK, or Samus.

 

[KingHenrik30]

wha?

 

[Heroman]

There's been several Links. I see no reason why one can't be a woman.

You can say the same for Mario but people dont want him being a girl.

 

[Dice//]

I asked you if you had a poll[...]

Oh for goodness sakes; neither do you.

 

[Jharp]

You can say the same for Mario but people dont want him being a girl.

I mean, take his mustache off and slap some tits on him, call him Maria, and there you go. I see no problem with that either.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Oh for goodness sakes; neither do you.

That was my point, you can't say it's not a handful.

 

[Laieon]

Last time a thread like this popped up I was pretty much called a sexist for saying I'd rather Link stay a male and Nintendo just create a new female protagonist if they're really interested in being more diverse. My opinion hasn't changed.

 

[Jharp]

Last time a thread like this popped up I was pretty much called a sexist for saying I'd rather Link stay a male and Nintendo just create a new female protagonist if they're really interested in being more diverse. My opinion hasn't changed.

I see no problem with this either. In Link's case, though, making him a woman isn't a huge leap. He's already somewhat feminine, and the continuity already sets it up that "Link" isn't a single character, but several characters throughout the timeline. Why can't one be a woman?

 

[Mango The Magician]

Last time a thread like this popped up I was pretty much called a sexist for saying I'd rather Link stay a male and Nintendo just create a new female protagonist if they're really interested in being more diverse. My opinion hasn't changed.

Interesting that you should say that. lol

 

[Dice//]

That was my point, you can't say it's not a handful.

lol