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[Karkador]

I didn't realize that being able to rename a character made said character somehow less iconic or memorable, or erased said characters design or the 30 years behind it.

Character design is not the same thing as "character". Like I said earlier in the thread, superhero comics have been doing this for decades, it shouldn't be that hard to understand. " Batman" is a concept that looks and acts a certain way, but various characters in those stories have played that part throughout the years.

Really? comparing the warriors of light to cloud and squall? Or perhaps they have names locked because of gee I don't know, voice acting? I guess they didnt think calling everyone "him or her" was the best choice after final fantasy X.

Voice acting happened in videogames a while ago, and it changed how videogame stories and videogame characters were written and scripted. For better or worse, the characters in modern games come across a lot more fleshed out than the silent protagonists of the past.

Many argue that Zelda hasn't caught up to that, and the Zelda games falling behind modernity is one of the most frequent criticisms I hear about the recent games.

 

[blankempathy]

Character design is not the same thing as "character". Like I said earlier in the thread, superhero comics have been doing this for decades, it shouldn't be that hard to understand. " Batman" is a concept that looks and acts a certain way, but various characters in those stories have played that part throughout the years.

Are we really bringing comics into this? Storylines that have been known to be a cluster or ideas?

 

[Mango The Magician]

Yes, Cloud actually was an avatar.

As the FF series has progressed, they have done away with custom names, because we have Lightning and Balthier instead of Knight and Thief class.

Which is why we've transitioned slowly from this...

to this...

A Link Between Worlds doesn't even give you a chance to put in anything in, much like SS and TP, it automatically assumes that you're gonna use Link, but it takes it a step further by not even allowing you to name Link, but instead allowing you to rename Link.

It's a small gesture, but it says a lot.

Character design is not the same thing as "character". Like I said earlier in the thread, superhero comics have been doing this for decades, it shouldn't be that hard to understand. " Batman" is a concept that looks and acts a certain way, but various characters in those stories have played that part throughout the years.

And there's a billion and one different sources to get 'Batman' be it one of the million comic books, or one of the million different cartoons, or the 12 billion different movies, there's one single source to get Zelda, the OG source, Nintendo, asking to change Link is equivalent to asking to change Bruce Wayne in the og Batman comics.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

We've seen 12 incarnations of Link. All of them have looked pretty much exactly the same. If the reincarnations of the Hero have no ties to physical appearance, then that means that these similar forms have all just been coincidence.

UNLIKELY.

The fact that we have not seen significantly different forms already implies that within Zelda's lore reincarnations simply don't vary much physically.

ALBW already introduced gender swapped Dark World versions of characters. Maybe they can do that with Link at some point and we can play as both of them.

 

[Karkador]

Which is why we've transitioned slowly from this...

to this...
A Link Between Worlds doesn't even give you a chance to put in anything in, much like SS and TP, it automatically assumes that you're gonna use Link, but it takes it a step further by not even allowing you to name Link, but instead allowing you to rename Link.

It's a small gesture, but it says a lot.

Or it's there to make the pun of the title more apparent? Who knows, but it seems unlikely that the big picture decisions about the franchise are being incubated in the handheld Zelda spinoffs. If it was, then we'd have more good games like Minish Cap.

And there's a billion and one different sources to get 'Batman' be it one of the million comic books, or one of the million different cartoons, or the 12 billion different movies, there's one single source to get Zelda, the OG source, Nintendo, asking to change Link is equivalent to asking to change Bruce Wayne in the og Batman comics.

Zelda series is barely over 1/3 the age of Batman series, and DC comics went 'third party' a long time ago.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Or it's there to make the pun of the title more apparent? Who knows, but it seems unlikely that the big picture decisions about the franchise are being incubated in the handheld Zelda spinoffs. If it was, then we'd have more good games like Minish Cap.

It's not just ALBW, after WW, all games started out with the name already entered when you started the game, meaning you'd have to erase it to put in something else, ALBW is just an evolution of that. They clearly added it to make it more convenient, convenient for the people who don't rename Link, which says to me, that group must be somewhat large or at least noticeable.

Zelda series is barely over 1/3 the age of Batman series, and DC comics went 'third party' a long time ago.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. The age difference doesn't account for the inherent differences between the idea of Batman and a video game icon.

 

[StanleyPalmtree]

yes

 

[A Link to the Past]

We've seen 12 incarnations of Link. All of them have looked pretty much exactly the same. If the reincarnations of the Hero have no ties to physical appearance, then that means that these similar forms have all just been coincidence.

UNLIKELY.

The fact that we have not seen significantly different forms already implies that within Zelda's lore reincarnations simply don't vary much physically.

ALBW already introduced gender swapped Dark World versions of characters. Maybe they can do that with Link at some point and we can play as both of them.

Or it's just a business saying "let's keep things consistent, it's a lot easier." Trying to put any deep thought into why the designs remain consistent is a silly argument because it requires synthesis.

It's not just ALBW, after WW, all games started out with the name already entered when you started the game, meaning you'd have to erase it to put in something else, ALBW is just an evolution of that. They clearly added it to make it more convenient, convenient for the people who don't rename Link, which says to me, that group must be somewhat large or at least noticeable.



I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. The age difference doesn't account for the inherent differences between the idea of Batman and a video game icon.

Batsuit

Green tunic

These are the most important parts for both characters.

 

[blankempathy]

Or it's just a business saying "let's keep things consistent, it's a lot easier." Trying to put any deep thought into why the designs remain consistent is a silly argument because it requires synthesis.



Batsuit

Green tunic

These are the most important parts for both characters.

Not sure if serious.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Batsuit

Green tunic

These are the most important parts for both characters.

Blue eyes and an M on a hat, these are the most important aspects of the character.

You see how random and arbitrary that sounds?

 

[Freshmaker]

I'm still marginally on topic even with that unlike "no girls allowed" picture (I knew people would hate it though heh x).

It didn't really make sense however given that people had no problem with a female character as long as it doesn't involve appropriating a pre-existing male character to do so.

You went on a tangent about Dark Souls and women-hating when I or anyone else said neither of those things.

Not really. There have been several people that have popped in to call anyone who likes Link being a man misogynists. They also like to claim that Link isn't a character but rather merely an avatar. This describes the character you play in Dark Souls better than it does Link therefore people want a Nintendo developed Dark Souls.

No tangent at all.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Blue eyes and an M on a hat, these are the most important aspects of the character.

You see how random and arbitrary that sounds?

A picture of Bruce Wayne and a picture of the suit - shit, not even, the logo - will almost universally have everyone identify the logo as symbolic of Batman before Bruce Wayne.

Literally any person on Earth could be recognizable as Batman, all they need is the suit.

 

[blankempathy]

A picture of Bruce Wayne and a picture of the suit - shit, not even, the logo - will almost universally have everyone identify the logo as symbolic of Batman before Bruce Wayne.

Literally any person on Earth could be recognizable as Batman, all they need is the suit.

Are you kidding me? Do you not understand that more goes into a character besides playing dress up?

 

[Mango The Magician]

A picture of Bruce Wayne and a picture of the suit - shit, not even, the logo - will almost universally have everyone identify the logo as symbolic of Batman before Bruce Wayne.

Literally any person on Earth could be recognizable as Batman, all they need is the suit.

That's great, but it don't mean the same thing happens with Link. Plus, I'd argue that nearly any person who vaguely knows batman knows Bruce Wayne, but this is besides the point, you can't just pick which aspects are important or not to a character based on your own personal conjecture.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Are you kidding me? Do you not understand that more goes into a character besides playing dress up?

Do you not understand that the important aspect of a character's design isn't "Oh, Link isn't Link unless he's blonde, white, male, and blue-eyed", but rather "sword, shield, tunic"? His recognizability is enhanced by having those physical traits, but one of those quotations being removed form the equation causes significantly more confusion of who the character is than the other.

EDIT: Do make sure, Mango, that you are not actively defining what constitutes necessary traits yourself when you're saying that we shouldn't. I'm actually a bit in awe that you're trying to argue now that Link's physical features are anywhere near as valuable as the clothes that he wears.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Do you not understand that the important aspect of a character's design isn't "Oh, Link isn't Link unless he's blonde, white, male, and blue-eyed", but rather "sword, shield, tunic"? His recognizability is enhanced by having those physical traits, but one of those quotations being removed form the equation causes significantly more confusion of who the character is than the other.
EDIT: Do make sure, Mango, that you are not actively defining what constitutes necessary traits yourself when you're saying that we shouldn't. I'm actually a bit in awe that you're trying to argue now that Link's physical features are anywhere near as valuable as the clothes that he wears.

And do you not understand that something being of lesser importance than the other is not somehow justification to say that they're not important? Furthermore, I'm not naming what matters or not because I fail to see why, I easily can though if you wish, I was merely pointing out that, standing around shouting that what you consider important is somehow the truth. As for me, I fail to see why we have any reason to assume that Link having the same physical traits he's had for the last 30 years are not actually a part of his design that define him.

 

[A Link to the Past]

And do you not understand that something being of lesser importance than the other is not somehow justification to say that they're not important?

A good rule of thumb is, if you can be recognized as a character just by wearing the clothing, the clothing is what defines the character. If you have pink and purple long hair, if you're Hispanic, if you're overweight, people aren't going to scratch their heads and wonder who in the world this cosplay is trying to depict.

Well, fine.

1. We know that blonde hair and blue eyes are not necessary, as they aren't consistently featured.
2. We know that age is irrelevant.
3. We know that gender is irrelevant, as the designers clearly considered the idea of a female Link to a pretty darned significant degree.

Honestly, if people see "dark-skinned Link" and scratch their heads, they might not have the mental fortitude to be playing video games.

 

[Mango The Magician]

A good rule of thumb is, if you can be recognized as a character just by wearing the clothing, the clothing is what defines the character. If you have pink and purple long hair, if you're Hispanic, if you're overweight, people aren't going to scratch their heads and wonder who in the world this cosplay is trying to depict.

I mean really?

Well, fine.

1. We know that blonde hair and blue eyes are not necessary, as they aren't consistently featured.
2. We know that age is irrelevant.
3. We know that gender is irrelevant, as the designers clearly considered the idea of a female Link to a pretty darned significant degree.

Honestly, if people see "dark-skinned Link" and scratch their heads, they might not have the mental fortitude to be playing video games.

1. His hairs never left the blond spectrum, and his eyes have never not been blue.
2. there's only been two ages, and every single person on the planet goes through all ages, except those who have left us, meaning changing the age doesn't actually visually change the character.
3. If you're referring to Linkle, it's important to not that that was Tecmo Koei, not Nintendo, and the design was rejected.

Finally, don't insult people.

 

[blankempathy]

Do you not understand that the important aspect of a character's design isn't "Oh, Link isn't Link unless he's blonde, white, male, and blue-eyed", but rather "sword, shield, tunic"? His recognizability is enhanced by having those physical traits, but one of those quotations being removed form the equation causes significantly more confusion of who the character is than the other.

EDIT: Do make sure, Mango, that you are not actively defining what constitutes necessary traits yourself when you're saying that we shouldn't. I'm actually a bit in awe that you're trying to argue now that Link's physical features are anywhere near as valuable as the clothes that he wears.

So apparently Bayonetta is link. Or sonic. Because they've been recently able to dress up as him in their games.

I don't see bayonetta here. Just peach Samus and Link according to your logic.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Uh

Did it occur to you that posting images that prove my point - that these arts are immediately indicative of what clothing is being worn by whom - before you posted them?

Oh hay, Mario is Pikachu, Luigi is Link, and Link is Luigi

Oh hay, Toon Link (perhaps the only really stand-out Link due to his odd design) is wearing a new costume

Oh hay, Homer Simpson is wearing Link's outfit

Oh hay, Mario is Samus and Link

This proves my point quite well. If we saw a Gerudo woman wearing Link's tunic, we immediately recognize who it is supposed to be.

So apparently Bayonetta is link. Or sonic. Because they've been recently able to dress up as him in their games.

I don't see bayonetta here. Just peach Samus and Link according to your logic.

Just an observation

That you made this post means that you are incredibly unintelligent or incredibly dishonest

Because you either are completely unable to understand what I'm saying, or you do and are substituting quality argument by making bad faith misinterpretations of what I am saying.

Clothing is what defines Link. If it wasn't, Wind Waker would be sacrilege because TL is among the most drastic stylistic changes in a video game character ever. Yet, a realistic Link with red hair, dark skin, and breasts would somehow break design tradition because *fart poop*

 

[blankempathy]

Uh

Did it occur to you that posting images that prove my point - that these arts are immediately indicative of what clothing is being worn by whom - before you posted them?

Oh hay, Mario is Pikachu, Luigi is Link, and Link is Luigi

Oh hay, Toon Link (perhaps the only really stand-out Link due to his odd design) is wearing a new costume

Oh hay, Homer Simpson is wearing Link's outfit

Oh hay, Mario is Samus and Link

This proves my point quite well. If we saw a Gerudo woman wearing Link's tunic, we immediately recognize who it is supposed to be.

But thats those are characters wearing links clothes. No ones going to mistake those characters as the actual link.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Uh

Did it occur to you that posting images that prove my point - that these arts are immediately indicative of what clothing is being worn by whom - before you posted them?

Oh hay, Mario is Pikachu, Luigi is Link, and Link is Luigi

Oh hay, Toon Link (perhaps the only really stand-out Link due to his odd design) is wearing a new costume

Oh hay, Homer Simpson is wearing Link's outfit

Oh hay, Mario is Samus and Link

This proves my point quite well. If we saw a Gerudo woman wearing Link's tunic, we immediately recognize who it is supposed to be.

No, we recognize it as someone else wearing Link's costume. The differences aren't independent of one another, Bowser dressed as Mario isn't Mario.

Oh hay, Toon Link (perhaps the only really stand-out Link due to his odd design) is wearing a new costume

What if I told you that toon Link is nothing but a cartoony regular Link, meaning regular Link wearing the same outfit would still be recognized as Link despite not having the tunic.

 

[A Link to the Past]

No, we recognize it as someone else wearing Link's costume. The differences aren't independent of one another, Bowser dressed as Mario isn't Mario.

Logical fallacy. Bowser dressed as Mario isn't Mario, this does not indicate that a person who has physical differences to how Link is cannot be Link. Honestly, this all reminds me of how people felt about Toon Link - ironic since people now seem to accept his design without any fuss.

 

[Damerman]

Link doesnt have to be female... Would love if he was guerudo... And if zelda were hylian or the other way around. I would not mind olaying as either the guerudo zelda/link or hylian zelda/link. I preffer that link remained male and zelda a female. If you want girl girl or guy guy, create a new charcter with different names and their own identitities.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Logical fallacy. Bowser dressed as Mario isn't Mario, this does not indicate that a person who has physical differences to how Link is cannot be Link. Honestly, this all reminds me of how people felt about Toon Link - ironic since people now seem to accept his design without any fuss.

Ok, then Wario dressed as Mario, or better yet Luigi dressed as Mario, the costume is iconic but it's not the only thing. You said the tunic is the only thing people would recognize Link by, it's not, a Gerudo girl dressed as Link wouldn't be Link, it'd be a Gerudo girl dress as Link.

 

[blankempathy]

Uh

Did it occur to you that posting images that prove my point - that these arts are immediately indicative of what clothing is being worn by whom - before you posted them?

Oh hay, Mario is Pikachu, Luigi is Link, and Link is Luigi

Oh hay, Toon Link (perhaps the only really stand-out Link due to his odd design) is wearing a new costume

Oh hay, Homer Simpson is wearing Link's outfit

Oh hay, Mario is Samus and Link

This proves my point quite well. If we saw a Gerudo woman wearing Link's tunic, we immediately recognize who it is supposed to be.



Just an observation

That you made this post means that you are incredibly unintelligent or incredibly dishonest

Because you either are completely unable to understand what I'm saying, or you do and are substituting quality argument by making bad faith misinterpretations of what I am saying.

Clothing is what defines Link. If it wasn't, Wind Waker would be sacrilege because TL is among the most drastic stylistic changes in a video game character ever. Yet, a realistic Link with red hair, dark skin, and breasts would somehow break design tradition because *fart poop*

As unintelligent as trying to say that the clothes define the person? Stick anyone into an iconic outfit and that makes them that person, So when bruce wayne take off his batsuit he's not batman anymore?

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

Or it's just a business saying "let's keep things consistent, it's a lot easier." Trying to put any deep thought into why the designs remain consistent is a silly argument because it requires synthesis.

It has been argued that the in game lore supports a female Link. With every game that Link looks the same it becomes even more asinine to believe he can be anything but from a lore standpoint. Looking the same even twice is incredibly unlikely.

Not that that matters I guess. Nintendo already shat all over the lore with Hyrule Historia and ALBW. They'll do what they will and I'll buy it. As it stands though, it simply doesn't make much sense in the current lore and I'm against everything that goes against what makes sense in a given series.

 

[A Link to the Past]

As unintelligent as trying to say that the clothes define the person? Stick anyone into an iconic outfit and that makes them that person,

Right. Confirmed: Batman is Batman only because Bruce Wayne. Batrman Beyond is non-canon because being Batman can only happen because you look like Bruce Wayne.

So, idea: can your argument not be snarky and use an ounce of intelligence, or does your body violently reject a good faith argument?

 

[blankempathy]

Right. Confirmed: Batman is Batman only because Bruce Wayne. Batrman Beyond is non-canon because being Batman can only happen because you look like Bruce Wayne.

So, idea: can your argument not be snarky and use an ounce of intelligence, or does your body violently reject a good faith argument?

Except Terry McGinnis is still batman. He's not replacing batman as his original incarnation though. They both exist. At the same time you can replace link as a female and call him link. She wouldn't be Link though. She'd be a spin off variant just like Terry mcginnis isn't bruce wayne/batman. Thats because Link isn't just his clothes and armor/weapons. Hes his own character. Just like Bruce Wayne. Their weapons and armor are merely what makes them identifiable as the character they are supposed to be. Tools for them to be their roles. Someones getting a bit touchy.

 

[Freshmaker]

Right. Confirmed: Batman is Batman only because Bruce Wayne. Batrman Beyond is non-canon because being Batman can only happen because you look like Bruce Wayne.

So, idea: can your argument not be snarky and use an ounce of intelligence, or does your body violently reject a good faith argument?

There is Batgirl and Batwoman etc. None of them are Brucina Wayne however.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Except Terry McGinnis is still batman. He's not replacing batman as his original incarnation though. They both exist. At the same time you can replace link as a female and call him link. She wouldn't be Link though. She'd be a spin off variant just like Terry mcginnis isn't bruce wayne/batman. Thats because Link isn't just his clothes and armor/weapons. Hes his own character. Just like Bruce Wayne. Someones getting a bit touchy.

And what about The Flash? Or Robin? Or any variety of characters who changed roles? Is Tim Drake the fake, or Jason Todd? In this case, Link is many people. The only reason Gerudo Link is "too far" is because people are drawing a line in the sand and saying that this is the line of acceptability.

EDIT: Also, reminder that when you come in and intentionally troll a thread by misrepresenting arguments, people get annoyed. You are taking a bit of pride in annoying someone, much like a little kid would express joy that he annoyed his parents by making annoying noises at them all day.

 

[blankempathy]

And what about The Flash? Or Robin? Or any variety of characters who changed roles? Is Tim Drake the fake, or Jason Todd? In this case, Link is many people. The only reason Gerudo Link is "too far" is because people are drawing a line in the sand and saying that this is the line of acceptability.

Except you're trying to argue that Link can be different people because his gear is what defines him so if you stick someone else in there it will work.. I never said he couldn't I said he shouldn't. Not for the reasons you have tried to argue. Just because you can change something doesn't mean you should. Not without a good reason.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Except you're trying to argue that Link can be different people because his gear is what defines him so if you stick someone else in there it will work.. I never said he couldn't I said he shouldn't.

I literally never argued that he can be other people. I said that if other people were dressed up as Link, people would understand that the character was dressing as Link. On the other hand, a person who has white skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, and identifies as male, is not obviously Link. My point was that a change in skin, hair, and gender is not going to make Link unrecognizable, as long as the tools and clothing are present.

 

[Always-honest]

I wouldn't mind playing three different characters throughout the game like in GTA5. In a Zelda game they could really change up the variety of the game this way and offer some nice story twist and different perspectives.

 

[blankempathy]

I literally never argued that he can be other people. I said that if other people were dressed up as Link, people would understand that the character was dressing as Link. On the other hand, a person who has white skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, and identifies as male, is not obviously Link. My point was that a change in skin, hair, and gender is not going to make Link unrecognizable, as long as the tools and clothing are present.

Changing his gender makes him another person. No male or female would ever go through the same life had they simply swapped genders. They'd have their own experiences with some specifically revolving around the fact that they're male or female. Even without his Master sword or hylian shield Link is still Link. Before he gets his clothes in the prologues He's still Link. The clothes don't define his character. Even when the trailer premiered this past e3 for the Zelda Wii u title he didn't have any of his standard gear and everyone instantly knew he was Link.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Changing his gender makes him another person.

Why

If their "life experiences" are important, why is it okay that Links across the past 30 years have been

1. An islander
2. A forest elf
3. A farmer
4. A blacksmith's son

etc.?

Link has numerous roles. Gender would give him similarly unique and interesting upbringings.

 

[Mango The Magician]

And what about The Flash? Or Robin? Or any variety of characters who changed roles? Is Tim Drake the fake, or Jason Todd? In this case, Link is many people. The only reason Gerudo Link is "too far" is because people are drawing a line in the sand and saying that this is the line of acceptability.

EDIT: Also, reminder that when you come in and intentionally troll a thread by misrepresenting arguments, people get annoyed. You are taking a bit of pride in annoying someone, much like a little kid would express joy that he annoyed his parents by making annoying noises at them all day.

You're arguing that Link's clothes defines Link, which, no offense, simply doesn't make sense, if it did Postman Link, wouldn't be recognizable as Link. Furthermore, the Batman, Spiderman, and most other super heroes, rarely have identical costumes between versions, Batman Beyond for example doesn't even have a cape, the colors are completely different, and and the mask is different, it's the same way with Spider-man versus Spider-man 2099. None of this is to even mention, that, while I'm not 100%, none of the superheros who have taken the pasted torch even look similar to each other, or share similar names, while all Links look identical and share the same canonical name.

Finally, I'm trying not to be snarky, however if I have upset you I'm sorry.

 

[blankempathy]

Why

Thats vague. Be more specific. Also I added more to my post. nm.
Except it wouldn't be the same character. If you made Mario a female he wouldn't be mario. Just because they can have a different background doesn't mean they're the same character. Its their characteristics and physical appearance outside of clothes that define a character. Their clothes is just what makes them recognizable. If you turned link into a gears of war styled character with no neck and rippling muscles who talked in slang then guess what? He's not the link that we know. He'd be a brand new one who fans would ultimately dub "gears link" or something along those lines. Just like a female link would be called "femlink". And lets be honest. A lot of people would hate her. When you buy a LoZ games you expect certain things. Theres a consistency between all the games and those things are link/ganon/zelda plus a few places and the triforce.

 

[BGBW]

One day someone sat down and added together all the days that the Batman stories take place. They found that it added uo to 274 years. This is the reason they suddenly needed to make more Batmen because this length of time doesn't make sense for one man. Link on the other hand doesn't have this problem since his stores begin with a new Link almost every time.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You're arguing that Link's clothes defines Link, which, no offense, simply doesn't make sense, if it did Postman Link, wouldn't be recognizable as Link. Furthermore, the Batman, Spiderman, and most other super heroes, rarely have identical costumes between versions, Batman Beyond for example doesn't even half a cape, the colors are completely different, and and the mask is different, it's the same way with Spider-man versus Spiderman 2099. None of this is to even mention, that, while I'm not 100%, none of the superhero's who have taken the pasted torch even look similar to each other, or share similar names, while all Links look identical and share the same canonical name.

Finally, I'm trying not to be snarky, however if I have upset you I'm sorry.

I actually wasn't calling you snarky, that was a crossed-wire. Appreciate the apology, though.

Anyway, my point is that one thing is definitely more essential than the other, and I would say that even if we were to look at Toon Link, TL is significantly less identifiable as Link than a realistic Link, and all I can see with this scenario is that a Gerudo Link would have only as much growing pains as a cartoon-styled Link.

 

[Karkador]

Except you're trying to argue that Link can be different people because his gear is what defines him so if you stick someone else in there it will work.. I never said he couldn't I said he shouldn't. Not for the reasons you have tried to argue. Just because you can change something doesn't mean you should. Not without a good reason.

And this is why your posts are what people are playing the misogyny card on.

Why does there need to be a 'good reason' for the character to be female, if there isn't one for the character being male? All the language and rhetoric you have been using in this thread has been about shutting down the idea of something different. Mind you, no one is even putting down the idea of Link being male, just the silly idea that he MUST always be male, because that is somehow very justified and essential to the character?

It's not. The story of Link, as far as any Zelda game I've ever seen, has never depended on the character being male; not even his paper-thin 'romance' with the princess gets far enough for anything about boyhood/manhood to be reflected in that. The most Link has ever been "a guy" is in that obnoxious American cartoon where he kept asking Zelda for a kiss at every turn of the adventure.


It's not like anyone is even saying that the games should permanently change. The series is not a linear narrative. There is room to explore the ideas people are proposing, along with the same old stuff in your regular Zelda games.

 

[Mango The Magician]

I actually wasn't calling you snarky, that was a crossed-wire. Appreciate the apology, though.

Anyway, my point is that one thing is definitely more essential than the other, and I would say that even if we were to look at Toon Link, TL is significantly less identifiable as Link than a realistic Link, and all I can see with this scenario is that a Gerudo Link would have only as much growing pains as a cartoon-styled Link.

Here's the thing though, Toon Link is pretty much identical to regular Link, there was never a change in the actual character, meaning the differences between them is very similar to the differences between Mario and Paper Mario, what the thread is proposing or what the other side is proposing is an actual change to the character, a big change. It wouldn't be the same as WW, as WW was nothing more than a art style change.

And this is why your posts are what people are playing the misogyny card on.

Why does there need to be a 'good reason' for the character to be female, if there isn't one for the character being male? All the language and rhetoric you have been using in this thread has been about shutting down the idea of something different. Mind you, no one is even putting down the idea of Link being male, just the silly idea that he MUST always be male, because that is somehow very justified and essential to the character?

It's not like anyone is even saying that the games should permanently change. The series is not a linear narrative. There is room to explore the ideas people are proposing, along with the same old stuff in your regular Zelda games.

The thing is though is that there's no reason why any character has to be anything, meaning there's no reason to not change any character. Yet, Link, just like any other character has a iconic design, and there's no real reason to change Marios iconic design, so there's no real reason to change Links, both could easily be changed without explanation, as a explanation isn't required for either. Furthermore, there's nothing to gain from changing it, and literally anything that would propel someone to want it could easily be accomplished without changing it.

 

[Karkador]

what the thread is proposing or what the other side is proposing is an actual change to the character, a big change.

You know that women are people with lives and stories to tell too, right? Some of things you've been saying in this thread come off like women are 5th dimensional beings that would bring devastating and mind-melting change to the framework of a simple story. I mean, changing the character to a woman? It would take 10 more development studios to figure that one out...

 

[blankempathy]

And this is why your posts are what people are playing the misogyny card on.

Why does there need to be a 'good reason' for the character to be female, if there isn't one for the character being male? All the language and rhetoric you have been using in this thread has been about shutting down the idea of something different. Mind you, no one is even putting down the idea of Link being male, just the silly idea that he MUST always be male, because that is somehow very justified and essential to the character?

It's not like anyone is even saying that the games should permanently change. The series is not a linear narrative. There is room to explore the ideas people are proposing, along with the same old stuff in your regular Zelda games.

Because you simply think that making him female would have no bearing on the franchise or anything else. There isn't a good reason for him to be male? How about Link the character is a male? I know you want to think that Link can be anyone but at this point in time has he? No he hasn't. All his representations within the series and outside of it are essentially the same design with a bit of updating. He's a mascot character along the lines of Mario and Luigi. Hell even Pikachu who there are actually more then one single one at any time within their universe are basically carbon copies of each other except for minor differences if any. If link we're a female originally I'd be arguing against making him male. People who can't see past someone having other issues without simply thinking that they don't want to play a girl aren't worth my time. I'm not against the idea of playing a female. I'm against overhauling a character to make that happen. Theres a big difference. Oh you don't think the games would change? Do you think people would simply say "thank you Nintendo for letting me play as a girl. You can go back to making Link a male again". Yea like that would ever happen. So then we'd have to go with the dual gender select option. That means the games would have to be written for them because as we saw in the last game link being male was kind of important to the story. Unless you want to make zelda and femlink bi then that story isn't going to work which means you'd have to write a story for both genders.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Here's the thing though, Toon Link is pretty much identical to regular Link, there was never a change in the actual character, meaning the differences between them is very similar to the differences between Mario and Paper Mario, what the thread is proposing or what the other side is proposing is an actual change to the character, a big change. It wouldn't be the same as WW, as WW was nothing more than a art style change.

You say that now, but I was around pre-TWW - people said the same thing, that they didn't accept him as a "valid Link."

 

[Mango The Magician]

You know that women are people with lives and stories to tell too, right? Some of things you've been saying in this thread come off like women are 5th dimensional beings that would bring devastating and mind-melting change to the framework of a simple story. I mean, changing the character to a woman? It would take 10 more development studios to figure that one out...

Ok...I wasn't really referring to the work involved or anything like that, just that comparing a art style change which didn't touch the character at all, that just put a different lenses over Hyrule, to a significant change to a 30 year old character is a little disingenuous. One just made Hyrule look like a cartoon, the other physically changes the actual character, meaning the reception likely wouldn't be comparable. Furthermore, I do think it's necessary to have a playable female character, but I see no reason why they need to change Link to do that, despite the lore allowing it, which is a fairly flimsy excuse.

You say that now, but I was around pre-TWW - people said the same thing, that they didn't accept him as a "valid Link."

Yes because it changed the artstyle, I'm sure however that people were able to get over it because Link wasn't actually changed, now compare that to actually changing Link. It's a whole different scenario, one changed the art style, the other is bucking a 30 year old tradition, and the entire general image of the character, with the excuse that it simply can. It's be equivalent to making Mario into a battle axe wielding barbarian.

 

[blankempathy]

You say that now, but I was around pre-TWW - people said the same thing, that they didn't accept him as a "valid Link."

No one had issues with that Link specifically. They had issues with the overall art direction and the fact that it looked too cartoony especially after coming off oot. Plus the demo they showed of link fighting ganon closer to the oot style but for the game cube made people feel like they were misled.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I would harshly dispute that. The first thing people saw of Toon Link that his personality was definitely different from what we've known Link to be. He was a lot more light-hearted, and instead of facing big monsters, all he did was run away and trick them.

No one had issues with that Link specifically. They had issues with the overall art direction and the fact that it looked too cartoony especially after coming off oot. Plus the demo they showed of link fighting ganon closer to the oot style but for the game cube made people feel like they were misled.

That's incredibly untrue :v Even when released, people felt that Toon Link was particularly bad compared to the other character designs.

 

[Mango The Magician]

I would harshly dispute that. The first thing people saw of Toon Link that his personality was definitely different from what we've known Link to be. He was a lot more light-hearted, and instead of facing big monsters, all he did was run away and trick them.

Yes but was the character, physically changed?

 

[blankempathy]

I would harshly dispute that. The first thing people saw of Toon Link that his personality was definitely different from what we've known Link to be. He was a lot more light-hearted, and instead of facing big monsters, all he did was run away and trick them.



That's incredibly untrue :v Even when released, people felt that Toon Link was particularly bad compared to the other character designs.

No they just thought he wasn't as cool as oot link because again he looked cartoony. Again thats because of the art style.