Red Arremer
Member
All Voyager seasons were good. I am not sure whether I should laugh at this or cry haha
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
TrekGAF, which is worse, Voyager or Enterprise
- Thread starter Fine Ham Abounds
- Start date
- Status
All Voyager seasons were good. I am not sure whether I should laugh at this or cry haha
Sir_Crocodile
Member
did you enjoy threshold
Escape Goat
Member
He was on People's Top 50 hottest celebrities or somethjng.
Enterprise is much much worse.
Awful characters, awful stories, awful dog, awful "origin" gabage, awful decontamination sex scenes, awful everything.
I tried to watch the Xindi arc during a SyFy rerun recently and even that is just dreadful. Makes me glad they sticked to a two parter with the Year of Hell on Voyager. These writers weren't capable of season long arcs.
Awful characters, awful stories, awful dog, awful "origin" gabage, awful decontamination sex scenes, awful everything.
I tried to watch the Xindi arc during a SyFy rerun recently and even that is just dreadful. Makes me glad they sticked to a two parter with the Year of Hell on Voyager. These writers weren't capable of season long arcs.
Enterprise is better just because of Season 4, which is one of the best seasons of all of Star Trek aside from the finale. If Enterprise had 3 more seasons of Season 4 quality it would easily be remembered as one of the best Trek series.
Season 3 of Enterprise was a major improvement and I liked the the season long story arc. Seasons 1 and 2 of Enterprise were pretty average at best.
As for Voyager...at least the Doctor was an awesome character.
Season 3 of Enterprise was a major improvement and I liked the the season long story arc. Seasons 1 and 2 of Enterprise were pretty average at best.
As for Voyager...at least the Doctor was an awesome character.
this is close to the wrongest opinion I've ever seen posted here
eot
Banned
Voyager has quite a few good episodes. Even if it's only 10-15% it adds up because it ran for 7 seasons.
The low lows aren't Voyager's problem, it's the quality of the average episode. Every trek series has low lows.
The low lows aren't Voyager's problem, it's the quality of the average episode. Every trek series has low lows.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Sisko vs the Maquis dwarfs anything in Voyager. He posoined a whole planet without any authorisation to catch one man who was his personal enemy.
BattleMonkey
Member
Voager was crap though out, Enterprise had some promise but got yanked when it was improving.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
That was a pretty bad one, but it definitely doesn't dwarf endgame.
Wasn't the federation at war with the maquis by that ep though? Although I'd assume they had some kind of no-bioweapon edict in place.
I think Voyager was both better and worse than Enterprise. Enterprise started slow, but it started better than Voyager, which started bad. And Voyager eventually reached higher highs than Enterprise. If Enterprise had lasted a few more years instead of getting cancelled, and those were good years, Enterprise would have ended up better than Voyager. But Enterprise was cancelled, and it didn't have those extra few good years.
If you ask which was "better", I'd have to say Voyager, because higher highs.
If you ask which was "worse", I'd say Voyager again, because lower lows.
Comparing them as a whole, I dunno, it's apples and oranges.
If you mush them both up into blobs of grey paste, and compare their averages, I don't really know, but I know they're both unlikable grey paste.
Until she meets another Starfleet Captain (Equinox), at which point she finds a loophole in the protocols (backed up by guns) she can abuse in order to establish temporary dominance and immediately use that dominance to shut him down completely, to the point of ordering the destruction of his functional ship, which would seem to be a bigger asset than the Delta Flyer, but it's destruction cements her temporary rank as permanent.
And then when she realizes that he's made a dark decision for the sake of survival, one that was actually defended by protocol, she flexes her new rank and has him arrested for the entire 100-year journey home, and refuses to grant mercy to his crew.
It's lonely at the top.
If you ask which was "better", I'd have to say Voyager, because higher highs.
If you ask which was "worse", I'd say Voyager again, because lower lows.
Comparing them as a whole, I dunno, it's apples and oranges.
If you mush them both up into blobs of grey paste, and compare their averages, I don't really know, but I know they're both unlikable grey paste.
Until she meets another Starfleet Captain (Equinox), at which point she finds a loophole in the protocols (backed up by guns) she can abuse in order to establish temporary dominance and immediately use that dominance to shut him down completely, to the point of ordering the destruction of his functional ship, which would seem to be a bigger asset than the Delta Flyer, but it's destruction cements her temporary rank as permanent.
And then when she realizes that he's made a dark decision for the sake of survival, one that was actually defended by protocol, she flexes her new rank and has him arrested for the entire 100-year journey home, and refuses to grant mercy to his crew.
It's lonely at the top.
eot
Banned
I'm surprised you think that's the most damning thing about Voyager. It's seems like the right trek show to explore just that kind of thing, a situation where people can't live up to the starfleet ideals. I think the problem is more that they kept sweeping everything under the rug afterwards.
Escape Goat
Member
Hey, it would recover eventually!
LastGamer84
Member
If I remember correctly the weapon he used just made it uninhabitable to everyone but Cardassians. That basically forced the Maquis off the planet. It showed just how far Sisko had gone in his quest to find Eddington. He took the betrayal personally and used whatever methods were necessary to catch him.
That's the point of the episode. Unlike TNG, the characters in DS9 (with the exception of Ezri) were more complex than just being one note caricatures. I mean, everyone remember 'In The Pale Moonlight'? Sisko was an accomplice to something far worse than poisoning a planet. These actions by complex characters.
I think Chuck from Sfdebris puts it better than I can: TNG (and to some extent Voyager) were problem of the week shows. They'd found some new culture or weapon or some other problem, deal with it and move on. DS9 on the other hand was caught up in long term problems: the government infighting on Bajor, the Maquis, the Dominion threat, etc. These were problems that took place over the course of seasons. While the early seasons are a bit rough, by seasons 3-4 they mostly had the characters nailed and the storylines set.
Sure their were some bad episodes like Paradise, but DS9 only had problems early on because it wasn't your typical Trek show. The bad episodes early on usually resulted from it trying to be like TNG.The writers hadn't found their footing yet.
Voyager on the other hand, along with Enterprise, were typical Trek shows with minor variations. Both should not have suffered from the flaws they did, but are both equally terrible to me in their own ways.
Besides, you can't hate DS9, Sisko did what Picard never could and actually punched Q's lights out. Ben Sisko's pimp hand beats down even omnipotent beings
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I came in to say this exact thing. Voyager isn't bad (for the most part), its just...average. That is the best word for it.
Bingo. Voyager's problem is that it should have been the show to marry DS9's "consequences" attitude to the perpetually moving framework of classic Star Trek. But it didn't. A huge wasted opportunity.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
dead souls
Member
Enterprise is worse, way worse. Voyager is a deeply flawed show but at least it frequently feels like Star Trek. Enterprise is just a mess overall and has all the problems that can happen with any prequel.
Nemesis121
Member
Enterprise had some great Episodes that were not Xindi related, I love the Borg episode which was connect to First Contact, in the Mirror Darkly part 1 and 2 are fucking great, also Brent Spiner playing Soong and seeing Data's early creation when Soong said humans are flawed was great..also any episode that had Jeffrey Combs were excellent..
TemplaerDude
Member
They both suck, Enterprise is better simply for having realized that fact sooner.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Besides, you can't hate DS9, Sisko did what Picard never could and actually punched Q's lights out. Ben Sisko's pimp hand beats down even omnipotent beings
He didn't just hit Q. He puched Q so hard that he was suddenly infatuated with a bipolar psychopath in the Delta Quadrant.
Escape Goat
Member
In one episode of Voyager they acknowledge they have a finite supply of photon torpedoes and no way to replace them. Then they're firing them like they're candy. The crew didn't trust each other but after one episode there is zero difference between them.
They tried sometimes but clearly no one had any kind of vision for this show.
They tried sometimes but clearly no one had any kind of vision for this show.
Enterprise has to be worse. Voyager was bad. Bad, bad, bad. No getting around that. But despite the badness and whatever nonsense was in play at the time (a lot of nonsense) the show managed to produce a handful of good episodes. Enterprise, despite being freed from all that heavy lifting and having a wide, wide range of stories to tell (the ending is already taken care of, maybe just do half!) couldn't do much of anything at all.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Gotta say Enterprise is worse. It floundered around for two years, and then the ending... Easily worse than Sienfeld.
Voyagers was steadily mediocre. Enterprise spent far more time treading the terrible line.
Escape Goat
Member
What exactly did Janeway do that was so important?
FeenixRising
Banned
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
Voyager is legit decent overall. First season was kind of sketchy and last couple seasons basically only centered on the Captain, Seven, and the Doctor. The setting of the show also made recurring characters rare so each episode felt too self-contained.
But it totally captured the feeling of exploring and understanding better than any other Star Trek series...
But with that in mind right now I just started The Next Generation and I'm like halfway through season 1. It's usually not bad but it gets pretty ridiculous. It seems the consensus is that season 3 gets good though.
But it totally captured the feeling of exploring and understanding better than any other Star Trek series...
But with that in mind right now I just started The Next Generation and I'm like halfway through season 1. It's usually not bad but it gets pretty ridiculous. It seems the consensus is that season 3 gets good though.
Al-ibn Kermit
Junior Member
She constantly sacrificed the welfare of her crew in order to help civilizations that the Federation never encountered before and probably wouldn't for quite some time. Some people might think she's not charming but you can't doubt her moral fiber and leadership qualities.
deltatheta
Member
Well, she did pretty much single handedly defeat the Borg.
Red Arremer
Member
Except the multiple times where he pretty much settled reigniting conflicts between Cardassia and Bajor. Or the times where he used his role as the Bajoran messiah to guide Bajor towards finding the worm hole and becoming a member of the Federation, consistently opposing the super conservative official religious leader. Or the time where he uncovered the Dominion's plot to destabilize the Alpha Quadrant's powers by infiltrating their governments, thus bringing Klingons into the conflict against the Dominion. Or the time where he uncovered a Starfleet admiral's plot to overthrow the government in order to make the Federation a police state. Or the time where he uses all of the assets he can get in order to bring the Romulans into the fold. Or the time when he sent some of his officers to support the Cardassian dissidents within the Dominion forces.
Yeah, Sisko clearly didn't do anything of importance, at all. He was only one of the central political and military commanders in one of the Federation's biggest wars, and one of the most important diplomats within the entire region.
FeenixRising
Banned
When the prophets supposedly vanish he has a borderline breakdown and completely shuts himself in his own little world until they come back. He simply can't function without them and just operate by himself, he has to know that some semi-omnipotent beings have his back before he'll take a risk.
Hell, he even starts out as a bit of a whiner who just wants away from Bajor and seems to consider it a backwater until something happens to make it, and more to the point him, important in the grander scheme of things.
Well to be fair Bajor was an unimportant backwater until the discovery of the galaxy's first stable wormhole put it on the map. I doubt any Starfleet officer would of jumped at the chance to be assigned there much less someone who was considering resigning from Starfleet all together like Sisko was in the first episode.
Also maybe my memory is failing me, but wasn't Janeway the one who locked herself in her room forgoing her duties as captain because she was depressed she couldn't see the stars for a while?
BouncyFrag
Member
Red Arremer
Member
But that isn't really true, lol. Yeah, he has a breakdown when the prophets vanish, but you have to also take the context into consideration. After YEARS of rejecting the prophet shit from the Bajorans, even after Kai Opaka's 'death' and the orb experiences and whatnot, he eventually realizes how much he has come to love his new home of Bajor, the people on it, and embraced it. He wants to protect this planet he loves, so when the prophets, the guardians of Bajor, those creatures he had been bonding with, vanish, he has this breakdown. Because he feels like he did something wrong, that he exposed Bajor to a big danger that he can't prevent.
Maybe you're right and he feels the prophets' "backing" is a sort of moral support for him. But the prophets don't really influence Sisko's actions as a commander or diplomat. The way he handled things all were on himself. And the fact he was willing to sacrifice the wormhole to save Bajor and the Alpha Quadrant from that enormous Dominion fleet also was his own decision - and went against what the prophets suggested or wanted.
He wasn't really a whiner, he was a grieving widower who had lost his beloved wife to a massive slaughter of the Federation fleet, and a single father to boot. He had kept a desk job at Utopia Planitia to cope with his loss and give his son a stable upbringing, but then the project he worked on was canned, so he was considering leaving Starfleet altogether, but was reassigned to the other half of the quadrant onto an uncomfortable and completely destroyed station for a backwater (and it truly was backwater back then) planet that just gained independence from a militaristic and cunning race that would obviously try to claim the station, and eventually planet, back.
I wouldn't be too happy with an assignment like that either, to be honest.
Wow. Shit I've avoided this show and Voyager because of the shit quality and never really gave Enterprise a chance. If season 3 and 4 are really some of the best Trek ever made, I might need to watch just those two seasons.
Are they really THAT good?
acheron_xl
Member
Enterprise doesn't really start to motor along until well into season 3. I tried to watch Enterprise multiple times, and it was on my 3rd attempt or so that I soldiered through to the good stuff.
They're pretty good.
Red Arremer
Member
I'm not sure I would go that far, because there's been some damn fine Trek, but it certainly is at the very least better than a lot of the weak to okay seasons in better series.
That said, I will never get over how shit TNG Season 1 is, either.
PayOffWizard
Member
Voyager is 90% excellent. Ds9 season 1-4 are mind numbingly boring. I rewatched them both this year.
I think most people love ds9 because the last 2 seasons were excellent and forget just how bad is was for the most part.
I think most people love ds9 because the last 2 seasons were excellent and forget just how bad is was for the most part.
acheron_xl
Member
Wha? DS9 S1 is the strongest first season of any Star Trek show. I'd actually say that DS9 S7 is it's worst season.
- Status