NotMyRealName
Banned
I can't decide which decision is worse - the Wii U gamepad or Xbox One's Kinect
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Polygon: MS needs to admit the XB1 Kinect is a peripheral, not a pack-in. [Opinion]
- Thread starter SwiftDeath
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old manatee
Banned
When they said they were packing it in every box I assumed they had at least 1 killer app for it, but after all of these years of kinect I still haven't heard of one interesting piece of software for it.
The point is you shouldnt have to in 2014...look at siri, you literally can say things multiple ways, in your normal tone of voice and it does what you want. having to say key phrases in a loud clear voice and still only get 80% responsiveness is pure trash.
Even at 400, youre still getting an inferior console compared to the competition.
$300 and then you will have people biting.
Kinect isn't solely responsible for the X1 being underpowered. Blame it on MS trying to make a jack of all trades box instead of a gaming first box.
Duxxy3
Member
In the U.S., Canada and the U.K. a drop to $400 would probably even out sales somewhat. The rest of Europe and Japan would still be one sided.
I think Microsoft would be happy to carry those three markets again.
Xbox Fitness is using Kinect and my GF loves it so far. Works mostly like a charm. As already said Kinect Sports Rivals is coming this April with D4 following sometime after. KSR is working absolutely brilliantly via Kinect. The Preseason demo shows that pretty well. Gestures and navigation in the Dashboard works also very well. The only thing which annoys me is the speech recognition. It often works at the second try and with the recent system update it got even worse. I love to use speec recognition also in games and snapping and switching apps is MUCH faster via Kinect, but currently the speech recognition isn't nearly as good as it should be. That's true.
WordsintheWater
Member
I'm sure there's an option in the menus to disable the voice recognition stuff, haven't checked yet myself cause last night was the first time I ran into this problem playing a multiplayer game. But you can't reassign command or teach any new ones.
Yes, exactly, voice is sketchy enough as it is, you can't just limit it to exact phrases, that's ridiculous. Siri is a great example, because while I rarely use it, I don't have to memorize any commands to make a call or send a text if I actually want to use it.
If they weren't trying to keep the price differential low due to kinect they could have specced a higher end system. It's not just the kinect cost, it's what those costs took out of the budget for other parts too. Unless the kinect stuff adds $100 exactly to the price of manufacture, in which case I guess MS just screwed up their manufacturing and sourcing if Sony can get a better machine for the same retail price to consumers.
What the hell is the point if you can't reassign commands and the default commands direct to non obvious app use? Bloody hell. Removing options taken way too far.
CraZed
Member
Consumers most certainly DO have a choice on whether to buy a Kinect or not. I really feel the rhetoric in the article is a bit demonstrative in nature. "Consumer-hostile?" "Pushing a product on the consumer?" Neither of those statements is based in fact or reality.
If you don't think the Kinect + XB1 is a value proposition don't buy one. They act as if MS is jackbooting the Kinect into peoples' homes, when nothing of the sort is happening.
There are other systems on the market; ones that function just fine without the Kinect or a camera peripheral. Buy those if you don't want Kinect. If you hate how crappy the Kinect works SHUT IT OFF! The XB1 will still work without it.
I agree the Kinect is worthless, but that is why I have not bought an XB1 and I am fine with that choice. If it is their opinion that MS would be wiser to just make the Kinect a secondary purchase I would whole heartedly agree. But, to delve into the ad hominem magniloquence is frankly downright sad on Polygon's part.
Basically, it ain't that serious Polygon!
If you don't think the Kinect + XB1 is a value proposition don't buy one. They act as if MS is jackbooting the Kinect into peoples' homes, when nothing of the sort is happening.
There are other systems on the market; ones that function just fine without the Kinect or a camera peripheral. Buy those if you don't want Kinect. If you hate how crappy the Kinect works SHUT IT OFF! The XB1 will still work without it.
I agree the Kinect is worthless, but that is why I have not bought an XB1 and I am fine with that choice. If it is their opinion that MS would be wiser to just make the Kinect a secondary purchase I would whole heartedly agree. But, to delve into the ad hominem magniloquence is frankly downright sad on Polygon's part.
Basically, it ain't that serious Polygon!
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Hopefully with the announcement of Xbox One's indie games we'll see some imaginative uses for it, since Microsoft don't seem to be able to provide a steady stream of quality Kinect software themselves.
With some decent games, that have so far failed to materialize, and a lower price for the overall package, I believe most people would want to get Kinect with their console, and then packing it in would make more sense then selling it as a separate peripheral.
With some decent games, that have so far failed to materialize, and a lower price for the overall package, I believe most people would want to get Kinect with their console, and then packing it in would make more sense then selling it as a separate peripheral.
That would also be profitable much earlier in the system's life. This is what happens when Xbox as a brand becomes fully integrated into Microsoft versus how they were pretty much their own thing with the original Xbox and the 360. The company wants to see returns quicker on the system while pushing Kinect and in doing so make an inferior box with a peripheral that doesn't have the appeal Microsoft wish it had.
Don't you have to say 'Xbox turn off'? Xbox off won't work.
And you have to say the full name of the game you want to play when it would seem to be unnecessary - how many assassins creed games do you have on your Xbox one?
I love the water cooler comment. I guess plenty of polygon staff have gone ahead and out their TV through the Xbox, thereby forcing their spouses to use kinect at least a bit to watch TV. Putting an extra barrier in front of such a lean back activity isn't easy, and if any of the experience doesn't work perfectly (like the voice recognition), it will just create frustration. I wonder if any of he polygon staff have had to disconnect the cable box from the HDMI passthrough on the Xbox?
CraZed
Member
Easily answered.
$349 version would sell very well and the $449 version would go the way of the Dodo.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
I don't get why people think the Xbox One wouldn't have enough appeal if Kinect were optional. Consoles, even if underpowered compared to their competition, don't need a gimmick to generate interest. The Xbox One needs compelling games, and MS is doing a pretty good job in that department. I personally don't see myself ever using it as my main console, but I do want one for exclusives.
Kinect is an incredible piece of tech. It really is. And it should be a part of the console, just as much as the controller is. That way, developers can build amazing games and experiences that can be experienced by everyone, that don't have to fall back on the controller for others.
Having Kinect as an accessory just diminishes its worth and it becomes useless, just like the original. You get a fragmented player base and a bunch of noncommittal developers who just bolt-on features for the sake of it.
What I've written above has been my view since Durango started leaking. People moaned about always-online and no matter what people may have said, I always maintained that raising the ecosystem's bottom line to assume that all players are connected will make for more compelling experiences – we've seen this already with games like Titanfall, that require an online connection, for example. Now that Microsoft caved in, the promised experience has been diluted somewhat.
The same is happening right now with Kinect. And you know what? It's completely your fault, Microsoft. You have a kick-ass piece of kit right here. Your key differentiator against the PS4. And you blew it. Your launch titles have no Kinect integration whatsoever, apart from the same last-generation bullshit voice commands and head tilting. None of the incredible experiences you touted behind closed doors in the summer last year were there at all. Your job as a first-party is to show off what your tech can do and basically, you blew it. My Kinect is just sitting there, with such promise. And I'm just sitting there waiting for someone to bloody do something with it. And because you haven't, everyone and his dog wants you to ditch the damn thing, just like last time. And you know what? I don't blame them one bit.
Having Kinect as an accessory just diminishes its worth and it becomes useless, just like the original. You get a fragmented player base and a bunch of noncommittal developers who just bolt-on features for the sake of it.
What I've written above has been my view since Durango started leaking. People moaned about always-online and no matter what people may have said, I always maintained that raising the ecosystem's bottom line to assume that all players are connected will make for more compelling experiences – we've seen this already with games like Titanfall, that require an online connection, for example. Now that Microsoft caved in, the promised experience has been diluted somewhat.
The same is happening right now with Kinect. And you know what? It's completely your fault, Microsoft. You have a kick-ass piece of kit right here. Your key differentiator against the PS4. And you blew it. Your launch titles have no Kinect integration whatsoever, apart from the same last-generation bullshit voice commands and head tilting. None of the incredible experiences you touted behind closed doors in the summer last year were there at all. Your job as a first-party is to show off what your tech can do and basically, you blew it. My Kinect is just sitting there, with such promise. And I'm just sitting there waiting for someone to bloody do something with it. And because you haven't, everyone and his dog wants you to ditch the damn thing, just like last time. And you know what? I don't blame them one bit.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Obviously the Kinect. Even at its most basic the gamepad allows for off-screen play!
Actually I'm not sure removing kinect would have made any difference to the power of the machine. It would have been cheaper, sure. But the APU is already massive, MS couldn't realistically make that any bigger to increase GPU performance.
You'd need to remove the esram to do that. Possibly if MS didn't have kinect, and didn't have grand plans to be the media center in your living room, and didn't want to being windows 8 apps to Xbox one - then maybe they could have architected the machine around a smaller amount of GDDR5, allowing for a bigger GPU. But that is something baked in pretty early.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
Exactly. History has shown time and time again that the most powerful console of the gen is usually not the winner. Drop the gimmicks and focus on games and gamers.
Do you really plan on buying a weaker system for the same price as ps4 that with the removal of kinect has no distinct features?
(Do things like tv even work with just the controller?)
mullet2000
Member
That's actually tough. I think they've hurt both Nintendo and MS, and both have good qualities (off TV play and voice control, respectively) to go along with their bad.
They both share the same problem of very few or no games using them in any interesting or meaningful way. On Wii U I just use a pro controller at all times now because it's much much more comfortable to me and I'm not interested in playing my games on a 480p screen. Xbox One came out with a bundled Kinect with NO compelling software for it. Both were ultimately mistakes that raised the price of their systems much high than they should have been.
I hope that both Nintendo and MS realize now that hardware gimmicks, even cool ones, are really, really hard to push without software that uses it. Especially when they're raising your price tag because of it.
Fair enough, don't know much about the design process.
WordsintheWater
Member
You have to be very specific with the commands you use, for example you can't say "Xbox, go to Ryse" you have to say "Xbox, go to Ryse: Son of Rome" or else it won't work.
Agreed 100%.
See, that is just stupid. I can understand the full game name being the default command, but surely an option to change that should be included.
"If you dont include the Kinect with every console, then the userbase will be fragmented and devs wont care about it, and consumers wont care about it either because devs wont make enough games for it, its a vicious circle!!"
..yeah, but what if consumers just do not care about it in the first place? Whether its included in the Xbox, whether its given for free on the streets? Then what?
Then you have a issue where you are selling a 500 dollar device, and your competitor is offering more for less, you got a problem.
I dont think MS are slow or conservative like Nintendo, they are cutthroat, and will cut the throat of the Kinect sooner rather than later, if the sales continue as they have.
..yeah, but what if consumers just do not care about it in the first place? Whether its included in the Xbox, whether its given for free on the streets? Then what?
Then you have a issue where you are selling a 500 dollar device, and your competitor is offering more for less, you got a problem.
I dont think MS are slow or conservative like Nintendo, they are cutthroat, and will cut the throat of the Kinect sooner rather than later, if the sales continue as they have.
Exactly, Microsoft tend to do well as the underdog. Look at Windows 8.1- they are bringing back much of what was cut from 7 and before because people wanted it. Look at Windows Phone- after 6 years in the ditch it's actually gaining marketshare. Heck, even Bing is making money now I think.
They will be ruthless with the XBO if they have to, but they have to act fast.
SwiftDeath
Member
Ok that's just ridiculous. On the PS4 with the camera or the headset I'm pretty sure you don't need to say the full official name for a game and it'll still bring you there
Consumers don't know what they don't know, so it's up to Microsoft essentially to prove its worth with compelling experiences and games that utilise it fully.
We're 3 months into the life of the cycle. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Like Kittens said, if they can bring consistently compelling games at a competitive price and regardless that they will forever be bashed as the system that can't do 1080p, they'll do just fine.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
A $349 XB1 would fly off store shelves. Consumers would choose the Kinect-less SKU by a shocking margin, if given the opportunity.
thelurkinghorror
Member
Siri is a dump example like the "power of cloud" stuff. In a game your voice need to be immediately recognizable, something like Siri has too much lag because is processed remotely
WordsintheWater
Member
Yea on the PS4 you don't need to say the full name, for Kinect being a more advanced piece of hardware I expected the voice commands to be more versatile.
Earthanoid
Member
Has there been an analysis of the latency of Kinect 2? I recall seeing one that was based on leaked specs, but has anyone actually tested the released device? Latency was the biggest problem of the original Kinect IMO, if they didn't fix that then there isn't a lot of hope that someone will figure out a compelling use. But if the latency is sufficiently improved there's still a chance someone will come up with something that isn't just a gimmick. Probably not, but who knows.
I got my PS4 at launch but didn't get a camera. A week later I decided to buy it and it was sold out everywhere, and I haven't been able to find one since then. Everywhere I ask, I'm told that Sony didn't ship that many to begin with, and they didn't know when more shipments are coming. So being sold out is probably more a function of Sony not making much to begin and not planning to restock. They're probably more focused on getting enough consoles out at this point.
I got my PS4 at launch but didn't get a camera. A week later I decided to buy it and it was sold out everywhere, and I haven't been able to find one since then. Everywhere I ask, I'm told that Sony didn't ship that many to begin with, and they didn't know when more shipments are coming. So being sold out is probably more a function of Sony not making much to begin and not planning to restock. They're probably more focused on getting enough consoles out at this point.
I agree with the author that the Kinect should be a separate peripheral (though I would still buy it if I ever get around to buying a next-gen console), but I think what he fails to mention, and that this board fails to focus on is that MS isn't really competing with Sony, they're competing with Apple and Google. Microsoft's vision of the Xbox One is currently a failure not because it's weaker than the PS4, but because the voice and gesture controls currently seem to work only well enough to satisfy techies and early-adopters. You can be sure that when Apple releases their new box, it will use natural language processing for voice commands, not this rigid "Xbox, go to..." that MS is currently using.
I have significant experience with the Microsoft.Speech and System.Speech Windows namespaces, and what's bizarre is that the Kinect 2.0 performs at levels WELL below standard .NET/headset microphone usage. I have no idea what the heck they're trying to do, but it's causing severe problems. I can write a twenty line program that hits 95%+ accuracy, but all the R&D in the world apparently made things utterly worse.
From the rumors, MS wanted 8GB of RAM to do all their multi-tasking/snap stuff, and they weren't betting on GDDR5 reaching densities that would be in their price range. If they went the Sony route, they would probably have the same chip, but the price would still be $499 due to Kinect. MS gave up on power to focus on multi-tasking, which seems to be hurting their sales.
If you don't think Microsoft is competing first and foremost with Sony here, you're ignorant. The install base is set entirely around the core audience who will pay full price for your product. If you can't establish a good reputation there, you're in for a struggle. The last thing Microsoft is focusing on is the competition with Apple and Google for the living room when they're pacing far behind the product aimed directly at beating them.
Got mine on Friday. Voice commands are a joke. Never work. I have to speak so slow and unnaturally to get it to work. I'm sure polygon has heard rumours that they are dropping it. Then they can look justified in a few months when there is a kinect less version. It's inevitably going to happen.
mocolostrocolos
Member
I completely agree.
Mandatory Kinect is what's keeping me from buying a ONE.
Mandatory Kinect is what's keeping me from buying a ONE.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
Agreed.
This entire gen is going to be rough for MS for making dumb assumptions about their audience.
A lot of stupid assumptions were made by who ever was in charge in it's design and they deserve to be humbled.
This entire gen is going to be rough for MS for making dumb assumptions about their audience.
A lot of stupid assumptions were made by who ever was in charge in it's design and they deserve to be humbled.
You have a point man. I just don't see the price dropping by more than $100 just because of Kinect. $350 would be a dream though.
Yep, same here.
I'm yet to see a compelling reason why Kinect is worth the asking price, and MS fans are always quick to say what it -may- become down the track. I'm only interested in buying it based off what it does now, not what could happen.
Drop Kinect, and let the market decide its worth. If MS provide enough reasons that really shows its value then I'm sure if would be a success, if not then it wasn't worth it in the first place.