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[Messofanego]

"If you're an Irrational employee and want to anonymously talk to a journo about what happened:"

I'm hoping more journos try to uncover what happened.

 

[Riposte]

It was in development hell for 5-6 years and looks like it drastically changed mid production judging from the early videos.

I didn't want to say anything I wasn't very informed out, but that's how it looks to me. I wouldn't be surprised if TakeTwo didn't want a studio like that given the crap they've dealt with in the past (namely, Duke Nukem Forever).

 

[120v]

Did BioShock Infinite have troubled or costly development? They were making that game for what felt like a very long time, which is odd given the type of game it was.

if the estimates are true, it probably barely broke even, if it broke even at all. it was very successful, still. just not enough to recoup its development costs

i thought 2K was going to gloss it over and give Irrational good faith that it wouldn't happen again. but at the end of the day they are a business

 

[Scrooged]

The problem is really with how he worded that press release, it's too bullshitty to be remotely true, but if taken at face value, he's basically saying that he wanted to do something different so he's firing 200 people in this talented and apparently successful studio, rather than just stepping down and letting some else take over. Obviously that can't be true, there has to be financial reasons behind it, but he still comes of as an asshole with that press release.

Except there's an entire paragraph describing how the company is helping the people laid off. They are giving them every chance to find work within Take Two and elsewhere.

Also, there is a huge difference between firing and laying off.

 

[element]

Unexpected and disappointing. Surprised Levine hadn't groomed someone to take over and then departed. Must've been a unique situation to end like this...

I think anyone with that type of political clout or influence had already left the studio (Nate Wells (Art Director 1), Scott Sinclair (Art Director 2), Tim Gerritsen (Executive Producer 1), Rod Ferguson (Executive Producer 2), Chris Kline (Director of Technology), and so on). Being a studio director takes a certain type of person, and takes an even better version of that to run a studio that large (around 200).

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

How do you know they got zero notice? For one they'll have a notice period in their contracts. If they didn't well, then, that's their own fault for signing crap contracts, or not signing contracts, in either case they'd be well aware of the risk they're taking.

Please remember we're not talking about minimum wage drones here. We're talking about highly paid, experienced, world-class engineers, artists and producers. They're working in an industry where 25% attrition per annum is entirely normal. They're working in an industry where a "studio" being more than 50% temporary and/or external contractors is standard practice. They're well aware of the nature of their jobs and aren't exactly going to be queuing up for food stamps any time soon.

I'm sure one month of wages will be a great comfort for them, their families, their mortgages and their power bills.

Your next paragraph I just shake my head at. You've got Shawn Elliot already hocking Bioshock swag on eBay to save for an "uncertain future", he's that worried, and thats an industry veteran on both the journo/dev sides of the fence and a well known name to boot!

 

[ANDS]

Then drop the pretense and call him out for being selfish like I am.

Self-interested actions are not necessarily selfish ones.

 

[2MF]

If the numbers I heard for Infinite are correct ( 150+ people team, 5+ years dev time and 4-5m in sales), this is not as surprising as many are saying.

Not all games are GTA to support big teams working for many years on them.

 

[foxtrot3d]

No. You're completely ignoring my point again. At no point have I said he should stay.

What stinks is Levine essentially saved his own position and publisher funding and just said "bollocks" to irrational and all he'd built up. He should have just left as a clean break. Instead he's used those people to build up his own hype within take two and now discarded them without a care.

You talk about "better offers" as if they didn't believe in what they were doing and were unhappy with their job. This has come out of the blue to them! They were content and this has blind sided them.

Lets just agree to disagree and move on.

You keep acting as if they have had zero notice and were just dumped on the street, I'm sure they knew they were getting axed and the letter clearly states he is allowing everyone time to stay at the studio long enough to wrap things up and put a portfolio together for a new company.

 

[Tesseract]

i really wish rod fergusson would shed some light on infinite's troubled development.

 

[Corto]

Pitying people who got fired isn't really an interesting endeavor and rarely a useful one, so I'm not surprised if people would rather focus on the future (meaning, games).

Did BioShock Infinite have troubled or costly development? They were making that game for what felt like a very long time, which is odd given the type of game it was.

Yes. Several senior staff leaving through the whole development time, multiplayer modes cut off, Levine claimed at some point that the cut content would be enough for 5-6 games IIRC, Rod Fergunson was called at the end of development to help finish it and get it ready for release, and quit shortly after that.

 

[Armaros]

if the estimates are true, it probably barely broke even, if it broke even at all. it was very successful, still. just not enough to recoup its development costs

i thought 2K was going to gloss it over and give Irrational good faith that it wouldn't happen again. but at the end of the day they are a business

Take two apparently havent done amazingly well in profit outside of any year they sell GTA.

Looks like this generation they aren't going to have any of it anymore from their non-profitable devs.

 

[Raptomex]

So he's giving up a successful (I think) game company to make smaller digital games? To each their own but wtf.

 

[Valnen]

Self-interested actions are not necessarily selfish ones.

They absolutely are when they have direct negative consequences for hundreds of people.

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

You keep acting as if they have had zero notice and were just dumped on the street, I'm sure they knew they were getting axed and the letter clearly states he is allowing everyone time to stay at the studio long enough to wrap things up and put a portfolio together for a new company.

From the press release and what employees have said on twitter it would appear that yes, they got zero notice.

They're not "staying at the studio". They have access to the facilities for their portfolios and to say goodbye. No-where in that does it say "paid". To all indications they have been let go today.

 

[Curufinwe]

I'm sure one month of wages will be a great comfort for them, their families, their mortgages and their power bills.

Your next paragraph I just shake my head at. You've got Shawn Elliot already hocking Bioshock swag on eBay to save for an "uncertain future", he's that worried, and thats an industry veteran on both the journo/dev sides of the fence and a well known name to boot!

Levine making a clean break wouldn't have helped those people. It would have just added 15 more names to the layoff list.

 

[A-V-B]

From the press release and what employees have said on twitter it would appear that yes, they got zero notice.

They're not "staying at the studio". They have access to the facilities for their portfolios and to say goodbye. No-where in that does it say "paid". To all indications they have been let go today.

Holy shit. That's way worse than I thought. What the fuck? And Part 2 of Burial at Sea ain't even out yet, too. You think they'd give the employees time, like a month, and then they'd all have to leave.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

They're not "staying at the studio". They have access to the facilities for their portfolios and to say goodbye. No-where in that does it say "paid". To all indications they have been let go today.

Yeah, conventional wisdom says the alternative is being escorted out the building by security guards.

 

[A-V-B]

No wonder all the companies are reaching out to the former employees. Jesus christ. I had no idea it was like that.

 

[molnizzle]

No. You're completely ignoring my point again. At no point have I said he should stay.

What stinks is Levine essentially saved his own position and publisher funding and just said "bollocks" to irrational and all he'd built up. He should have just left as a clean break. Instead he's used those people to build up his own hype within take two and now discarded them without a care.

You talk about "better offers" as if they didn't believe in what they were doing and were unhappy with their job. This has come out of the blue to them! They were content and this has blind sided them.

Lets just agree to disagree and move on.

Here's the thing though, he possibly did do that. In a position like his it's not like you put in a fucking two weeks notice. It's certainly possible (likely even, in my opinion) that he made his plans known to the suits at Take Two and they then informed him that if he left they would shut down the studio – but hey, Ken, since you're about to be free agent anyway, let us make you an offer.

What then? The studio would be closing either way. Why would Ken be the villain just for accepting a decent offer?

 

[Curufinwe]

They absolutely are when they have direct negative consequences for hundreds of people.

You could have a positive impact on hundreds of people by donating your spare time and money not needed for necessities to charity.

Do you?

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

Why would Ken be the villain just for accepting a decent offer?

Because he's getting into bed with the people that would just casually bin the staff of the studio he founded.

Levine making a clean break wouldn't have helped those people. It would have just added 15 more names to the layoff list.

Look. We just have different visions in regards to what Levines done. If Levine had a clean break, at least they'd have been in it together. Him & his staff. If take-two didn't want to do an Infinity Ward & keep them going with a new lead, then that's on the publisher to close the studio.

Instead, it seems Take-Two have kept their poster boy and got rid of irrational. It just stinks of Levine getting bored of his toys and moving on without giving much of a monkeys.

You say he has no obligation to what he's built up. I say he absolutely does. We're not going to agree on this.

 

[element]

How do you know they got zero notice?

They had zero notice.

For one they'll have a notice period in their contracts. If they didn't well, then, that's their own fault for signing crap contracts, or not signing contracts, in either case they'd be well aware of the risk they're taking.

It is VERY rare for employees in the US and Canada to have any sort of 'contract' other than standard employment. It isn't like these are sports contracts. You get hired, this is your salary, this is your benefits, this is your start date. Some people can negotiate salary or benefits, but you really can't add in 'in the event of being laid off I will get x'.

If anything most companies have in their HR documents their termination guidelines which include what happens if you are fired or laid off. It wouldn't shock me if they had a time served that prorates severance.

From Twitter and Facebook it sounds like the staff were given 3 months severance at a minimum.

 

[Andrew Korenchkin]

1997-2014

Thanks for everything, guys. No hyperbole, your games changed my life, making me rethink what Video Games could be and how they could mean the world in terms of personal experience. I'll never forget them.

Regardless, it's a new era, and I'm rather excited to see what he can cook up next...

 

[A-V-B]

And don't they usually do this stuff on Fridays?

 

[Messofanego]

I think anyone with that type of political clout or influence had already left the studio (Nate Wells (Art Director 1), Scott Sinclair (Art Director 2), Tim Gerritsen (Executive Producer 1), Rod Ferguson (Executive Producer 2), Chris Kline (Director of Technology), and so on). Being a studio director takes a certain type of person, and takes an even better version of that to run a studio that large (around 200).

Wow, Scott Sinclair's art is super surreal and cool. Get that guy for the next Zeno Clash, ACE Team

 

[Shingro]

I think what happened is that Take-Two looked at what it cost to make Infinite, looked at how much money Infinite made and concluded "there's no way we're doing this again." Now, based on some of the stories coming out of Infinite's development, I don't think it's completely unfair to place some blame on Levine due to his management of Infinite's development. However, I don't think there's any scenario here where Levine could have played hardball or suggested a successor so that Irrational's staff would all still have their jobs.

I think whatever comes to light, this probably hits closer to home then anything else. I'd almost say this is a given.

 

[PedroLumpy]

Holy crap, this seems overblown, the guy wants to do something different. Seems completely reasonable.

 

[Curufinwe]

They had zero notice.

It is VERY rare for employees in the US and Canada to have any sort of 'contract' other than standard employment. It isn't like these are sports contracts. You get hired, this is your salary, this is your benefits, this is your start date. Some people can negotiate salary or benefits, but you really can't add in 'in the event of being laid off I will get x'.

If anything most companies have in their HR documents their termination guidelines which include what happens if you are fired or laid off. It wouldn't shock me if they had a time served that prorates severance.

From Twitter and Facebook it sounds like the staff were given 3 months severance at a minimum.

3 months is a quite a lot.

 

[Shingro]

Because he's getting into bed with the people that would just casually bin the staff of the studio he founded.

Oh, you mean a business?

I have some bad news for you about the studio/publisher relationship...

 

[yiepekaiyei]

I don't understand. Why didn't he just quit and named another head for the studio?

 

[The perfect Dark]

i really wish rod fergusson would shed some light on infinite's troubled development.

Here's an interesting video at least:

How Bioshock Infinite Has Changed Since 2010

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xJV5ReOSjF0

 

[Curufinwe]

I don't understand. Why didn't he just quit and named another head for the studio?

It doesn't seem like T2 wanted to keep the full studio open without Levine. And maybe even with him.

 

[Raptomex]

Holy fuck. I just realized the real bummer... no SWAT 5

 

[reKon]

This is tough news... I wonder if I'll still ever see that PS4 version of Bioshock Infinite. I hope he does well with his new studio and those laid off can join great studios or start their own.

 

[molnizzle]

I don't understand. Why didn't he just quit and named another head for the studio?

For all we know, he tried to do just that and Take Two instead decided to shitcan the entire studio rather than continue to bankroll it without Ken Levine.

 

[Tesseract]

Here's an interesting video at least:

How Bioshock Infinite Has Changed Since 2010

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xJV5ReOSjF0

thanks for this, gonna do some probing.

 

[Orthogonal]

This is such sad news. I'm heartbroken about the loss of such a great studio. I hope those who lost their jobs can get back on their feet quickly. This is such a surprising turn of events. Was Irrational not doing well financially? Even though Bioshock Infinite was a little polarizing, it still sold well and I imagine made a profit.

Unless there was something else going on behind the scenes, it doesn't make sense to me why KL would make this decision.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

Well this is another reason not to buy season passes.

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

Oh, you mean a business?

I have some bad news for you about the studio/publisher relationship...

Nope, I mean an individual.

A "business" that gave a shit would have just walked.

Look at Infinity Ward/Respawn.

They had 100 staff and 46 went to Respawn eventually with the others keeping their Infinity Ward jobs.

Vince and Zampella actually gave a shit and actively tried to recruit to start something new. That's an example of founders walking out and then standing by their staff and what they built.

 

[BasketCasket]

I respect anyone who can go into this industry willingly. It seems like gambling with your life.

I've been through these situations twice now. We make games and I have been fortunate to have worked with some incredibly talented individuals. I don't regret any of it.

When I first heard that I can make a career out of video games; you can be damn sure I never imagined getting half this far. Even though I've been with 4 studios in the last decade and will likely see the same chaos going forward; it's given me an incredible opportunity to connect with some truly fascinating people. Even during the worst of times (crunch); the people kept me going. I wouldn't trade this to work at a bank.

These individuals will land on their feet very quickly; especially as the exploding mobile scene continues to push further and require some more intense depth to their games. You're already seeing more animators, 3d artists, designers, etc. joining the mobile scene. The video game industry is expanding; even if some of the "big" studios were not easily maintainable. A decade ago my options were limited; but now I'm confident I can land more than a handful of jobs within a week.

It will suck for a few weeks. Give it time and they will all look back at their time at Irrational as being something they wouldn't have traded for anything.

Well... unless something really rotten was going on over there; but that's doubtful. ;P

 

[Pyronite]

Summary of this thread:

Assumption assumption assumption.

Gossip gossip gossip.

Echo echo echo.

 

[Hubble]

Why not just convert the project with Irrational Games? Very sad as a big fan of the studio...

 

[Curufinwe]

Well this is another reason not to buy season passes.

Why is that? The season pass for BI has been great value already.

 

[Scrooged]

Well this is another reason not to buy season passes.

The DLC is still being released.

 

[Curufinwe]

Nope, I mean an individual.

A "business" that gave a shit would have just walked.

Look at Infinity Ward/Respawn.

They had 100 staff and 46 went to Respawn eventually with the others keeping their Infinity Ward jobs.

Vince and Zampella actually gave a shit and actively tried to recruit to start something new. That's an example of founders walking out and then standing by their staff and what they built.

That's a totally different situation. They were forced out over a dispute about creative control and hundreds of millions of dollars.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

From the press release and what employees have said on twitter it would appear that yes, they got zero notice.

They're not "staying at the studio". They have access to the facilities for their portfolios and to say goodbye. No-where in that does it say "paid". To all indications they have been let go today.

It does say "financial support" in Levine's statement. In the OP.

3 months is a quite a lot.

That's VERY generous for a situation like this where there were mass layoffs.

I don't understand. Why didn't he just quit and named another head for the studio?

What makes you think that was an option? He's pretty clearly trying to spin this negative into something positive.

For all we know, he tried to do just that and Take Two instead decided to shitcan the entire studio rather than continue to bankroll it without Ken Levine.

Extremely likely. If there was a path to keep the studio open and do the 15-man team, don't you think that would have been the outcome? Clearly there were extreme financial pressures here.

 

[crazyrabbits]

IIRC, Take Two didn't really tout BSI's numbers during their last quarterly report.

Quoting way back at the beginning of the topic here, but I agree. I was surprised that the game dropped in price absurdly quickly. In just over 9 months, it went from full-priced retail to $10 or less (and even $5 at some retailers), along with the Season Pass being heavily discounted on Steam and GMG.

Very sad news. Wasn't expecting this at all.

 

[beril]

He should just have come out and said that they're shutting down the studio for not being profitable enough if that's the case.

The story about shutting down the entire studio because of his departure is either pure bullshit or complete arrogance. But most likely the former, I don't think he would have the power to do so himself, and I doubt he has really been able to convince his bosses at T2 that he's that irreplaceable, or that his name really hold that much marketing power that they couldn't keep the studio going and make more bioshocks if it had been profitable

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

It does say "financial support" in Levine's statement. In the OP.

Read into it what you will. I'd say it's severance. As others have said it appears that it's 3 months from what staffers have been putting on social media. Perhaps it's contract dependant, we don't know. I doubt someone who doesn't find a job for 6 months is still going to be getting a take two paycheque.