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[Curufinwe]

Quoting way back at the beginning of the topic here, but I agree. I was surprised that the game dropped in price absurdly quickly. In just over 9 months, it went from full-priced retail to $10 or less (and even $5 at some retailers), along with the Season Pass being heavily discounted on Steam and GMG.

Very sad news. Wasn't expecting this at all.

I bought it at the end of July and it was still $40. Pretty standard.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

This was probably a very telling anecdote that explains a lot about why the game cost so much to make and took so long to develop:

In the past year, a number of high level employees quietly left Irrational for similar jobs at other studios. Levine acknowledges that, in some part, departures are a response to the company's abnormally intense iteration practices.

"I'm a bit of a slow chiseler, you know?" says Levine. "So it doesn't bother me that much. I think it's probably tougher for other people on the team. I think that's probably hard for some people."

Nate Wells, the art director of BioShock Infinite, and arguably the best known Irrational employee after Levine, was susceptible to massive creative gutting. This anecdote from a colleague of Wells gives an idea of what iteration, at its most extreme, was like in the office.

Levine and Wells had a blowout fight over Finkton. In BioShock Infinite, Finkton is the shantytown, home to the workers and outcasts of the floating city of Columbia.

The art team and level designers had been working on Finkton for a long time, with Wells directing the style. The inspiration was like the slums in Jamaica or Key West. All of the housing was wooden and colorful, as if painted by the residents to make the depressed quarters more livable. And each bright shack was stacked atop the next, climbing into the sky like an anthill, with the skyline piercing through it.

Ken had been in level reviews numerous times. Then one day, the Finkton team was doing a play test, when Ken decided the entire stage was wrong. It looked like the residents lived in garbage. It needed to be beautiful, because Columbia was designed so that even the poor lived beautifully.

It was all wrong. And it had to go.

Wells was furious. Levine had been looking at this for months. In August of this year, Wells announced his new role as art director at Naughty Dog Studios.

 

[bishopcruz]

Here's an interesting video at least:

How Bioshock Infinite Has Changed Since 2010

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xJV5ReOSjF0

Yeah, you can see just how troubled the development of this one was. The game looked a lot more impressive in 2010-2012 than it ended up in 2013. I still love it, but you can tell that a LOT of time was wasted on those vertical slices that went nowhere.

It reminds me of what happened to Halo 2 actually.

 

[Arsenic13]

The implications of a move like this are huge. Why? Because a large AAA publisher has opted to let Levine pursue his creative ambitions within their walls instead of letting him go off and become independent. 2K has done something rather interesting: they’ve decided to provide Ken Levine the time, and possibly the creative control, to develop the small-scale project that he wants to make.

2K believes in Levine’s next project, in turn they have shown belief that a small-scale team can create something worthy of investing in. I see this business decision as an interesting silver lining in today’s sad news. What we’re looking at here may be a sign of a AAA publisher opening the door to more creative risks in the industry that other AAA publishers may follow.


I wrote a little about this development: http://www.relyonhorror.com/articles/the-potential-rationale-behind-irrationals-closure/

What do you guys think? Am I wrong to be optimistic?

 

[Tesseract]

He should just have come out and said that they're shutting down the studio for not being profitable enough if that's the case.

The story about shutting down the entire studio because of his departure is either pure bullshit or complete arrogance. But most likely the former, I don't think he would have the power to do so himself, and I doubt he has really been able to convince his bosses at T2 that he's that irreplaceable, or that his name really hold that much marketing power that they couldn't keep the studio going and make more bioshocks if it had been profitable

i dunno man, i think that's exactly what happened here.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

Nope, I mean an individual.

A "business" that gave a shit would have just walked.

Look at Infinity Ward/Respawn.

They had 100 staff and 46 went to Respawn eventually with the others keeping their Infinity Ward jobs.

Vince and Zampella actually gave a shit and actively tried to recruit to start something new. That's an example of founders walking out and then standing by their staff and what they built.

After reading your posts, I'm not sure how tuned in you are with the real world. It's admirable to try to save jobs but in these scenarios, it's just not realistic. Your ire is very likely directed in the wrong direction.

The Respawn guys wanted to create another version of the same thing which is what they did. It's completely different than completely changing gears like Levine is doing.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

The implications of a move like this are huge. Why? Because a large AAA publisher has opted to let Levine pursue his creative ambitions within their walls instead of letting him go off and become independent. 2K has done something rather interesting: they’ve decided to provide Ken Levine the time, and possibly the creative control, to develop the small-scale project that he wants to make.

2K believes in Levine’s next project, in turn they have shown belief that a small-scale team can create something worthy of investing in. I see this business decision as an interesting silver lining in today’s sad news. What we’re looking at here may be a sign of a AAA publisher opening the door to more creative risks in the industry that other AAA publishers may follow.

They obviously wanted to keep Levine but without the cost of a AAA team behind him that took 6 years to make his last game. His name will still be a selling point and it's better for 2K to have it be under their umbrella rather than another publisher's.

 

[The perfect Dark]

Oh wow, just read this article from gamesradar (published in 2012):

http://www.gamesradar.com/should-you-be-worried-about-bioshock-infinite-and-irrational/

The staff changes are even more frightening than they might seem on the surface. Even if the people that left had completed their portion of the game, many had been with the company for years, and apparently they don’t want to be around for whatever comes next. It’s a bad sign for any development house, let alone one as talented as Irrational. At my most pessimistic, I worry that these exits are merely precursors to Ken Levine ultimately leaving as well, following in the footsteps of similarly revered devs like Will Wright, David Jaffe, and Cliff Bleszinski. Is it possible that he’d quit the company he built after his current game ships?

:/

 

[Mondy]

Oh wow. This is fucked.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

Read into it what you will. I'd say it's severance. As others have said it appears that it's 3 months from what staffers have been putting on social media. Perhaps it's contract dependant, we don't know. I doubt someone who doesn't find a job for 6 months is still going to be getting a take two paycheque.

Severance is exactly what it is. 3 months is very good for a country where most employment is at will. If the employees can't find work, they will be able to draw unemployment and other forms of short term assistance. It sucks but that's life.

Most people will find work. Most will find work within 3 months. I feel for those who don't

 

[Gannd]

The implications of a move like this are huge. Why? Because a large AAA publisher has opted to let Levine pursue his creative ambitions within their walls instead of letting him go off and become independent. 2K has done something rather interesting: they’ve decided to provide Ken Levine the time, and possibly the creative control, to develop the small-scale project that he wants to make.

2K believes in Levine’s next project, in turn they have shown belief that a small-scale team can create something worthy of investing in. I see this business decision as an interesting silver lining in today’s sad news. What we’re looking at here may be a sign of a AAA publisher opening the door to more creative risks in the industry that other AAA publishers may follow.


I wrote a little about this development: http://www.relyonhorror.com/articles/the-potential-rationale-behind-irrationals-closure/

What do you guys think? Am I wrong to be optimistic?

I really don't think you understand how business works.

 

[element]

Read into it what you will. I'd say it's severance. As others have said it appears that it's 3 months from what staffers have been putting on social media. Perhaps it's contract dependant, we don't know. I doubt someone who doesn't find a job for 6 months is still going to be getting a take two paycheque.

As I said, most companies especially larger ones have a severance guide and it isn't uncommon to have it increase depending on the amount of time you spent at the company.

Most severance packages are paid out in chunks, mostly so you aren't taxed at a huge rate. One issue with severance is it is viewed as income, so if you are given 3 months of severance, you can't file for unemployment for 3 months.

 

[FrankWza]

Everyone is going to be jumping on this all DD bandwagon. Cutting out the middle man is the future. But....msrp will stay at $59.99 or rise.

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

After reading your posts, I'm not sure how tuned in you are with the real world. It's admirable to try to save jobs but in these scenarios, it's just not realistic. Your ire is very likely directed in the wrong direction.

The Respawn guys wanted to create another version of the same thing which is what they did. It's completely different than completely changing gears like Levine is doing.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. You care more about Levines artistic visions and what he can create. I care more about his responsibilities as the head of a studio and how he should have acted as a leader. That's the crux of it.

In your world continuing his vision is of the most importance. In mine him saying "enough is enough" to take two when they were contemplating binning his staff and going out on his own would have shown a bit more courage.

Quite insulting to state I'm not tuned in with the real world. I guess I just care about people & my perception is that Levine went for the easy out by staying at Take Two.

My point was that Respawn at least cared enough about the team to attempt to offer them employment in what must have been a pretty uncertain time.

it's cool, your next point will be that Levine kept 15. There you go. Saved you a post.

Lets just agree we'll never convince each other and move on.

 

[CartridgeBlower]

This was probably a very telling anecdote that explains a lot about why the game cost so much to make and took so long to develop:

I don't get it. Doesn't this stuff happen on every game? Even things this large scale? Why is it so surprising? Because of all the work that was already competed? It's like reshoots for a movie or a writer rewriting a script -- things change as the project progresses.

Why should games be any different?

 

[Femmeworth]

This was probably a very telling anecdote that explains a lot about why the game cost so much to make and took so long to develop:

That is rather damning. It sounds like a better Shantytown than what was in the final game.

 

[Kintaro]

I hope people land on their feet quickly. =x

As for Levine... don't come calling for Kickstarter money.

 

[crazyrabbits]

I bought it at the end of July and it was still $40. Pretty standard.

Even then, that's a pretty fair drop. By December, the game and its SP were both going for about $5 each. I found it somewhat suspicious (and perhaps even paranoid) that the pass was offered on two separate points during the Steam Winter Sale for $5 as a "price error", with the second such instance left unchecked for hours on end while people snapped it up.

 

[element]

Everyone is going to be jumping on this all DD bandwagon. Cutting out the middle man is the future. But....msrp will stay at $59.99 or rise.

But they aren't cutting out the middle man. Still being funded by a publisher, and really even digital games go to retail.

 

[Arsenic13]

They obviously wanted to keep Levine but without the cost of a AAA team behind him that took 6 years to make his last game. His name will still be a selling point and it's better for 2K to have it be under their umbrella rather than another publisher's.

I really don't think you understand how business works.

I'm well aware that keeping him means money, but they're keeping him for a smaller sized project that may make less money than something as big as Bioshock can. They kept him for his skills, and most definitely for his name. It's just interesting that they opted to fund his passion project which he has stated will be smaller (smaller usually being perceived as less profitable by big pubs).

 

[rashbeep]

Oh wow, just read this article from gamesradar (published in 2012):

http://www.gamesradar.com/should-you-be-worried-about-bioshock-infinite-and-irrational/



:/

Dat foreshadowing.

 

[Mondy]

There is something very wrong with this industry when a studio with the prestige of Irrational is forced to shut its doors and lay off its staff. Shocking.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Read into it what you will. I'd say it's severance. As others have said it appears that it's 3 months from what staffers have been putting on social media. Perhaps it's contract dependant, we don't know. I doubt someone who doesn't find a job for 6 months is still going to be getting a take two paycheque.

So...

3 months is quite a lot for severance, geez what are you expecting golden parachutes for everyone? If they are talented they will find other work, if they don't that's life and business. It's nobody else's job to ensure that every single employee finds adequate work after they get laid off, they are grown ups I'm sure they can handle it.

 

[Uff duh]

Would you kindly... Not Shut down Irrational games please. I mean lets be rational here Ken!

 

[Apdiddy]

I honestly have the same reaction to this that I did to 38 Studios closing. Curt Schilling was taken to task over it then and I hope that Ken Levine gets the same.

I understand that Ken Levine wants to do something different and doesn't want to just do BioShock. But guess what? It's copyright Take Two Interactive for BioShock Infinite, not copyright Ken Levine. It's essentially not his creation anymore. He can go make F2P iOS apps or jump on Kickstarter for all I care.

To have people basically lose their livelihoods over Ken's decision -- I doubt very seriously I will buy anything with Ken's name attached at this point (I already bought the season pass so there goes that). I know it's not realistic to expect everyone to keep their jobs because BioShock Infinite lost a LOT of money, but I would like to see Take Two get someone who will stay true to Ken's creative ideas, make a BioShock game with realistic timetables and expectations for Take Two, and keep everyone there and happy. This could be Take Two's plan for all I know or could not be as well. Hopefully everyone affected will land on their feet soon.

 

[III-V]

Just my uneducated analysis, but it would seem like they want to keep Levine ( + chronies) around without all the staff required to produce a AAA in 5 years.

Good luck to those that lost jobs.

Truthfully, I am unsure what this means for the Bioshock series. Certainly felt like there was more to come. It would also seem as if this was a long time coming. Could also explain some of the rushed feeling of BI.

 

[Nihilistic Monk]

So...

3 months is quite a lot for severance, geez what are you expecting golden parachutes for everyone? If they are talented they will find other work, if they don't that's life and business. It's nobody else's job to ensure that every single employee finds adequate work after they get laid off, they are grown ups I'm sure they can handle it.

Perhaps it's contract dependant

Nothing's confirmed yet.

No I don't expect golden parachutes.

I haven't mentioned anything about anyone finding someone adequate work after they get laid off. It was a response to the "financial support" statement indicating that there'd be anything extra over severance. Re-read the post.

I hope they can.

 

[weevles]

If the situation presented makes no sense, generally it's a sign that wasn't the actual situation.

Take-Two just finished closing two unprofitable studios, and now they're closing Irrational.

That may be, but they (take two) are keeping Ken Levine, at least in a way. Unfortunate that he is valued more than all the other people.

 

[Buckethead]

Just my uneducated analysis, but it would seem like they want to keep Levine ( + chronies) around without all the staff required to produce a AAA in 5 years.

I think you're looking at this too cynically.

Infinite likely lost a shitload of money which put Irrational as a studio in a difficult place. 2K likely wanted to dramatically restructure Irrational after the Infinite clusterfuck to avoid any similar pitfalls in the future and stem the bleeding from the high expense of production costs.

2K most likely has, had, will have Levine under contract. Even if they wanted to cut him loose because they lost them money and put them in a shitty situation they won't, his name carries weight, and it would be in their best interest to keep him around. They probably will just reign him in far sooner on and/or give him way less sand in his new sandbox.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Here's an interesting video at least:

How Bioshock Infinite Has Changed Since 2010

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xJV5ReOSjF0

Yeah, I'm still waiting for the 2011 version of the game, that shit was impressive.

 

[Gannd]

I'm well aware that keeping him means money, but they're keeping him for a smaller sized project that may make less money than something as big as Bioshock can. They kept him for his skills, and most definitely for his name. It's just interesting that they opted to fund his passion project which he has stated will be smaller (smaller usually being perceived as less profitable by big pubs).

They didn't shut the studio down because Ken Levine wanted to make smaller games. If Bioshock Infinite was a rousing success that made all of this money, they would have continued on and Ken Levine could have done something else. The studio was shut down and they're keeping him and 15 people around. The last game from the studio wasn't a success and it killed the studio. Take Two isn't interested in spending tens of millions of dollars and spending years to produce a game that sold what the last game sold. This is a sign of the games industry contracting/changing.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

That may be, but they (take two) are keeping Ken Levine, at least in a way. Unfortunate that he is valued more than all the other people.

He's Ken Levine.
He can't take back his fame. I'm kinda gonna go out on a limb and say that Ken Levine isn't just anybody.

 

[Freeman]

This makes little sense to me. Why would Ken Levine work with a 15 man team under TakeTwo, why no go independent and own the IP?

This is just sad. We can't have nice things.

 

[Gannd]

This makes little sense to me. Why would Ken Levine work with a 15 man team under TakeTwo, why no go independent and own the IP?

This is just sad. We can't have nice things.

It would be interesting to see of the 15 who has options that are still vesting. Lots of times big companies will continue to keep really public people employed because they don't want them to go out and start a new studio right away. I wouldn't be surprised if Take Two owes Levine a lot of money and he's sticking around to make sure he gets it.


I wish a games journalist would research the vesting schedule with Take Two.

 

[Mondy]

I think people shouldn't be so quick to judge Levine. He could have asked Take Two to let him go and they said "okay, instead of you leaving, you can go off and do your own thing and we'll decide what will happen to Irrational."

This sort of sordid mass layoff behavior reeks of something a big publisher would do moreso than one individual like Levine.

 

[rashbeep]

Yeah, I'm still waiting for the 2011 version of the game, that shit was impressive.

Such a shame that something like that didn't come to fruition. The unique setting of Columbia felt a little wasted to me.

 

[gabbo]

I'm sad that I'll likely never ever see another Freedom Force, and I hope everyone lands a job somewhere.

Has Shawn Elliot posted yet? I didn't want to skim through 17 pages.

 

[Quasar]

This is a problem with this industry. Too many devs want to make movies, so they can get GOTY like The Last of Us. It was obvious to me that Bioshock Infinite was their attempt at a movie-like experience.

Well that's what I want from developers like Ken. Emergent narrative doesn't really interest me as a player. That's why I enjoy reading stories from Eve but have no interest in playing it. I want a strong narrative.

 

[disappeared]

Goodbye Irrational.

And good luck.

 

[Quasar]

I think people shouldn't be so quick to judge Levine. He could have asked Take Two to let him go and they said "okay, instead of you leaving, you can go off and do your own thing and we'll decide what will happen to Irrational."

This sort of sordid mass layoff behavior reeks of something a big publisher would do moreso than one individual like Levine.

I'd certainly feel terribly betrayed by take2 and all. I can't help but see it that all they ever cared about was Ken. All the rest are replaceable/disposable cogs in a machine.

 

[aznpxdd]

Woooow, definitely one of my favorite developers growing up. They were able to excel at so many different genres...I had such a blast with Freedom Force back in the days. RIP.

 

[CouldBeWorse]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. You care more about Levines artistic visions and what he can create. I care more about his responsibilities as the head of a studio and how he should have acted as a leader. That's the crux of it.

In your world continuing his vision is of the most importance. In mine him saying "enough is enough" to take two when they were contemplating binning his staff and going out on his own would have shown a bit more courage.

Quite insulting to state I'm not tuned in with the real world. I guess I just care about people & my perception is that Levine went for the easy out by staying at Take Two.

My point was that Respawn at least cared enough about the team to attempt to offer them employment in what must have been a pretty uncertain time.

it's cool, your next point will be that Levine kept 15. There you go. Saved you a post.

Lets just agree we'll never convince each other and move on.

You've got me COMPLETELY wrong.

At no point did I talk about his artistic vision. I'm just a realist who's been in the corporate world for over a decade and I understand how this works.

Levine didn't own the studio and didn't call the shots. Neither one of us know what options he had, but we know what he DIDN'T have, which was to keep everyone employed. Keeping 15 is better than keeping 0. I'm not sure why you think that's a bad thing.

Letting Take Two finance his next game was easier for him and 15 people than seeking outside investment. And those 15 people are CHOOSING to go with him. We all have choices.

Respawn is COMPLETELY different. Those guys are reliable, highly profitable, could name their price, and wanted to make another big game that needed a big team. It's a completely unique scenario that rarely repeats itself. Clearly Levine didn't have those options.

 

[Aizo]

I was sleeping, so I'm a bit late. Damn. This is incredibly surprising. I want to know more...

 

[CouldBeWorse]

There is something very wrong with this industry when a studio with the prestige of Irrational is forced to shut its doors and lay off its staff. Shocking.

It really sucks. BioShock is my game of the generation and Infinite was fantastic, too.

But they did this to themselves. The studio clearly wasn't profitable enough to continue in its current state. It's more of a reflection on this studio and than it is on the industry itself. You can't spend this kind of money on a game that doesn't hit a critical mass.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

If there is a smart publisher out there, they should give Levine a budget and a team and let him do what he wants.

Sony should be knocking on this guy/s door right now.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Then drop the pretense and call him out for being selfish like I am.

Self-interested, not "selfish." I'm not demonizing Levine.

But if you want to demonize the guy for not wanting to turn into a western Kojima (if that even is what happened), go ahead. You're in good company. Lots of people in this thread are as outraged as you are. Just don't be surprised when you're called out over it.

Your job is not yours. It belongs to the employer who hired you, and if you're no longer needed, it will be taken from you. It's hard, but it's true. Thinking differently won't make things different than they are.

Levine had no responsibility to continue in a job he didn't want, if that is what happened. Even if he felt bad about the decision. Everyone working in the industry knows people get laid off all the time. It's tough, but it's not uncommon (and it's becoming more common), and I'm sure most of them plan their finances for it. They all worked on a huge and hugely respected IP. They'll be fine.

 

[Mondy]

It really sucks. BioShock is my game of the generation and Infinite was fantastic, too.

But they did this to themselves. The studio clearly wasn't profitable enough to continue in its current state. It's more of a reflection on this studio and than it is on the industry itself. You can't spend this kind of money on a game that doesn't hit a critical mass.

Also, this stuff about relocating staff to other studios instead of laying them off is complete PR horseshit. Irrational was located in Quincy, Massachusetts. There are zero other 2K studios in that state. 2K know not many people will uproot their families to move thousands of miles away just to stay employed.

 

[Potts]

The implications of a move like this are huge. Why? Because a large AAA publisher has opted to let Levine pursue his creative ambitions within their walls instead of letting him go off and become independent. 2K has done something rather interesting: they’ve decided to provide Ken Levine the time, and possibly the creative control, to develop the small-scale project that he wants to make.

2K believes in Levine’s next project, in turn they have shown belief that a small-scale team can create something worthy of investing in. I see this business decision as an interesting silver lining in today’s sad news. What we’re looking at here may be a sign of a AAA publisher opening the door to more creative risks in the industry that other AAA publishers may follow.

I think this has more to do with retaining talent. Just look at all the key talent 2K has lost recently: Rod Ferguson, Steve Gaynor, Jordan Thomas, and Nate Wells. If 2K lost Ken Levine too, there'd be major questions about Take-Two's ability to retain their talent. Contrary to other big publishers like EA and Activision, Take Two's very strategy (it's right there in their financial statements) is to make few, but creatively-driven games. So, Take Two really can't afford to lose Levine and I guess they're willing to shut down an entire studio to do it.

 

[BlackBuzzard]

I really hope somebody comes out and tells his or her story, and what exactly went down. What happend in Infinite's development cycle, senior staffers dont just up and leave over small stuff.

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

dang