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[Nzyme32]

There aren't degrees of presence, either the simulation is convincing your 'subconscious' that you're in the game or it's not.

The specifics of the game will no doubt have an impact, but Morpheus is capable of providing it for some people.

Perhaps. I just watched the guys from Tested chatting with oculus and they are saying that dk2 is only teasing presence in their demos. Seems like there is a fair bit of work left

 

[Chuck Norris]

The real snag with this is going to be gameplay experiences. It seems like a lot of it will be limited to realistic movement

 

[Chuck Norris]

I think perhaps the best solution might be a wheel or joystick and pedals set up. Which may sound strange, but will give you movement, stopping and reversing and 360 degrees of movement

 

[bigboss370]

co-release with Mirror's Edge 2

 

[StuBurns]

Perhaps. I just watched the guys from Tested chatting with oculus and they are saying that dk2 is only teasing presence in their demos. Seems like there is a fair bit of work left

I emailed Abrash about this a couple of weeks ago, while he does say 'strong presence' in his dev days talk, he believes it to be a binary state, and even DK1 can produce it in some people, Valve's presence spec will work with most people.

He hasn't done research into why some people achieve presence with a less convincing simulation than others, so we can't really know who will experience presence with DK2/Morpheus like specs, but some will.

 

[ScepticMatt]

I'm not seeing your point. How does that change what I and Sony have said?

I'm saying it's not an easy fix - running your games at a stable 85+Hz with AA is "something to be concerned about"
I'm not saying it is not possible for Sony or they will not do it.

 

[Dizzy-4U]

Someone needs to hire Mizuguchi ASAP.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Someone needs to hire Mizuguchi ASAP.

Only if he's ready to make a new Sega Rally-style game.

 

[Nzyme32]

I emailed Abrash about this a couple of weeks ago, while he does say 'strong presence' in his dev days talk, he believes it to be a binary state, and even DK1 can produce it in some people, Valve's presence spec will work with most people.

He hasn't done research into why some people achieve presence with a less convincing simulation than others, so we can't really know who will experience presence with DK2/Morpheus like specs, but some will.

Interesting stuff. I imagine this could be connected to polymorphisms of neuronal pathways responsible for low level processing involved in systems responsible for perseption of reality..... Or it could that a lens is a bit wonky

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Oh, by the way - the slide that's illustrating that is using a Colossus from Shadow of the Colossus. Read into that what you will.

Just read this on last night's live text feed from Eurogamer.

Can you imagine?!? What is really fucking exciting from a content POV is that Sony has soooo many i.p's and games from yesteryear that can be applied to VR and be completely awesome.

SotC and GoW are two of the more obvious ones. Although a TRON-like game, like others have said, would be glorious.

 

[demosthenes]

Eyes are ready, wallet will likely not be.

Good thing it's not coming out this year. Anybody that wants to give OR or Morpheus a go should start saving now

 

[Chuck Norris]

Just read this on last night's live text feed from Eurogamer.

Can you imagine?!? What is really fucking exciting from a content POV is that Sony has soooo many i.p's and games from yesteryear that can be applied to VR and be completely awesome.

SotC and GoW are two of the more obvious ones. Although a TRON-like game, like others have said, would be glorious.

Holy shit first person Shadow of the Colossus with Morpheus

omgcumonme

 

[Dankul]

I think perhaps the best solution might be a wheel or joystick and pedals set up. Which may sound strange, but will give you movement, stopping and reversing and 360 degrees of movement

I imagine that a vehicle battling game using the move as a pistol type weapon would offer a very immersive and intense gameplay experience. For example, one of your hands would be used to steer a car by either tilting the DS4 or by using a separate wheel. The other while holding a move controller, can then be used to aim your gun independent of which ever way your car is facing. Since your body is limited to a seated position, one should be able to realistically model the movement of your body based off the position your head and two hands.

 

[RadarScope1]

Hell yes. Great first impression with much time left to polish. Thanks for gathering this into a thread, chubigans.

 

[riskVSreward]

I imagine that a vehicle battling game using the move as a pistol type weapon would offer a very immersive and intense gameplay experience. For example, one of your hands would be used to steer a car by either tilting the DS4 or by using a separate wheel. The other while holding a move controller, can then be used to aim your gun independent of which ever way your car is facing. Since your body is limited to a seated position, one should be able to realistically model the movement of your body based off the position your head and two hands.

I love this idea, sounds very intuitive and fun with room for competitive multiplayer elements.

 

[EventHorizon]

They are RPGs, it's kind of a standard system. Are you gonna tell me every other non mmo rpg game that makes you target characters before attacking them are doing so because of lag? It's like that because it works well, that's why they are RPGs and not Action RPGs, they are 2 different things. Both have been done online AND offline.

Hold up. Are you really trying to claim that MMORPGs could have worked without targeting? The template for MMORPGs are 3D single player RPGs like The Elder Scrolls. And guess what??? No targeting because it wasn't needed.

 

[Branduil]

I imagine that a vehicle battling game using the move as a pistol type weapon would offer a very immersive and intense gameplay experience. For example, one of your hands would be used to steer a car by either tilting the DS4 or by using a separate wheel. The other while holding a move controller, can then be used to aim your gun independent of which ever way your car is facing. Since your body is limited to a seated position, one should be able to realistically model the movement of your body based off the position your head and two hands.

And everyone gets to find out just how hard driving a car while shooting at a moving target with a pistol would actually be, LOL.

 

[ReaperXL7]

I emailed Abrash about this a couple of weeks ago, while he does say 'strong presence' in his dev days talk, he believes it to be a binary state, and even DK1 can produce it in some people, Valve's presence spec will work with most people.

He hasn't done research into why some people achieve presence with a less convincing simulation than others, so we can't really know who will experience presence with DK2/Morpheus like specs, but some will.

It was limited because this was in homeschool, but I took Psychology as an elective course and I remember the subject of hypnosis being a topic at one point. It seemed from some studies suggested that for a person to be able to he hypnotized they have to actually believe that they can be in the first place and if they do not believe they can be on a subconscious level then it's impossible.

I wonder if VR has a similar effect where you have to believe in the simulation for it to really immerse the user.

 

[qa_engineer]

I'm sure this has been posted already but wanted bring up the fact that he grabbed the knights arm, cut it off, beat the knight with his own arm, and then threw said arm away.


Project Morpheus - Hands On with Sony's VR Headset:

http://youtu.be/ngMOngbsdY4



Sold.

 

[Thaumaturgic Tomato]

Holy shit first person Shadow of the Colossus with Morpheus

omgcumonme

Not first person. 3rd person. I want to be a bird seeing the the battle from all angles just like the original game.

The VR "movement" is getting overly attached to the idea that games must be 1st person. It can be a wonderful experience for 3rd person camera views too. Controller + Rift/Morpheus is my ideal combo. Recline at 180 degrees on the couch and climbing colossus after colossus using DS4.
Heck, I'd enjoy playing The Walking Dead in VR. Yes, that point and click story. I want to feel like I'm in a comic book.

VR =/= 1st person view. I hope the VR game pioneers understand this early. It has its place of course. But every camera angle can be glorious.

First person SOTC is definitely intriguing. It would be hard to see though and the epic scope of the colossi would be drastically reduced because you would feel like you're on a boulder instead of a colossi's shoulder. It can be done but with lots of adjustments by talented people.

I'm sure the horror genre will be the earliest to have a major push in first person. I am interested for sure. As long as they aren't jump scare reliant. Give me some creepy woods with just the wind and owls and shadow figures.

Also, I hope realism isn't the primary goal. I've never been in a cartoon. Let me enter a cartoon. I've already spent time in the real world. ideally, stylization should run rampant.

 

[Dankul]

And everyone gets to find out just how hard driving a car while shooting at a moving target with a pistol would actually be, LOL.

Not only that, but the crashes that can happen from not paying attention the the road would be hilarious. Expanding on the idea, having a passenger who is just responsible for taking out other vehicles (and defense?) could possibly make for some awesome competitive coop. The game doesn't even have to be with cars or using realistic weapons, maybe something similar to a VR adaptation of Mario Kart: Double Dash.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Not first person. 3rd person. I want to be a bird seeing the the battle from all angles just like the original game.

The VR "movement" is getting overly attached to the idea that games must be 1st person. It can be a wonderful experience for 3rd person camera views too. Controller + Rift/Morpheus is my ideal combo. Recline at 180 degrees on the couch and climbing colossus after colossus using DS4.
Heck, I'd enjoy playing The Walking Dead in VR. Yes, that point and click story. I want to feel like I'm in a comic book.

VR =/= 1st person view. I hope the VR game pioneers understand this early. It has its place of course. But every camera angle can be glorious.

First person SOTC is definitely intriguing. It would be hard to see though and the epic scope of the colossi would be drastically reduced because you would feel like you're on a boulder instead of a colossi's shoulder. It can be done but with lots of adjustments by talented people.

I'm sure the horror genre will be the earliest to have a major push in first person. I am interested for sure. As long as they aren't jump scare reliant. Give me some creepy woods with just the wind and owls and shadow figures.

Also, I hope realism isn't the primary goal. I've never been in a cartoon. Let me enter a cartoon. I've already spent time in the real world. ideally, stylization should run rampant.

I think the scale would be there when you're looking up at the Colossi, or right on top of it.

Like Mirror's Edge but on a colossi. I think first person is necessary to capture the idea of "presence", but that doesn't mean experiencing traditional games wont be very much enhanced by the device

 

[qa_engineer]

Not only that, but the crashes that can happen from not paying attention the the road would be hilarious. Expanding on the idea, having a passenger who is just responsible for taking out other vehicles (and defense?) could possibly make for some awesome competitive coop. The game doesn't even have to be with cars or using realistic weapons, maybe something similar to a VR adaptation of Mario Kart: Double Dash.

You're on to something. Or have the person wearing the headset act as a pilot while player 2 serves as the gunner on a cobra gunship.

 

[Thaumaturgic Tomato]

I think the scale would be there when you're looking up at the Colossi, or right on top of it.

Like Mirror's Edge but on a colossi. I think first person is necessary to capture the idea of "presence", but that doesn't mean experiencing traditional games wont be very much enhanced by the device

Agree, but from a distance. That view would be breathtaking. But, once you're on it, or very close on the ground, the whole screen would be blocked by walls of textures and you'd forget about the size and it would feel like a crawling around on normal terrain. That comparison is necessary to show that the colossi are actually colossi. We saw that they were 100 times taller than the trees. That comparison/contrast would only be available briefly when the player is at a distance if it is a first person view.

That bird's eye view gave the game it's scope and the colossi their shock value. The player could compare the full bodies to the surrounding environs. In first person, running on the back of one would seem like running on brown terrain of any given FPS.

I'm certainly no programmer so there's probably geniuses out there with ideas on how to beat the problem.

 

[mr teaspoon]

I hope people who wear glasses can wear this thing comfortably.

Edit: never mind, watched the video and concerns are allayed.

 

[Mindlog]

Really happy to hear it's comfortable. Just looking at it gave me HMZ flashbacks, but my concerns were completely unfounded. Overall impressions seem very positive!

Pumped to see Valkyrie coming as well. I'm definitely buying a Rift for that game. However, I'd also be interested in the Morpheus version. The more people getting exposed to Space Action/Combat/Sim games the better.

And the No Man's Sky News...

Exciting time for games.

 

[_hekk05]

No, lowering the persistence without increasing the frame rate causes flicker.
I made a graph. Critical flicker fusion frequency (CFF) is a property of our eyes, and increases with screen brightness and field of view.
For example, Oculus DK2 uses 2ms persistence at 75 Hz.

Where's the image from? What literature?

 

[keuja]

I now see a prime example of how PS4 will put those extra compute ressources to good use.

This VR thing could be what brings a a new crowd of "casuals" to this new gen of consoles like motion control did for the Wii.

 

[Branduil]

Disney needs to make a Pod Racer sequel with VR support.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

Disney needs to make a Pod Racer sequel with VR support.

Bro, of all the Star Wars games they could make for this ......... you want a POD RACER SEQUEL!

-A new X-Wing game with in-cockpit starfighter immersion
-A new Jedi Knight with lightsaber combat
-A new Dark Forces FPS game

The possibilities are endless! Who wants to go back down the road of the prequels? Especially with the sequels films incoming.

 

[Billen]

I'm sure this has been posted already but wanted bring up the fact that he grabbed the knights arm, cut it off, beat the knight with his own arm, and then threw said arm away.


Project Morpheus - Hands On with Sony's VR Headset:

http://youtu.be/ngMOngbsdY4



Sold.

Seen the link but never watched it, so thank you for posting. I'd say things are looking pretty good for us consumers, having several companies competing on the same arena.

And these are the sets we have seen so far.

 

[LicenceToK1ll]

I'm sure this has been posted already but wanted bring up the fact that he grabbed the knights arm, cut it off, beat the knight with his own arm, and then threw said arm away.


Project Morpheus - Hands On with Sony's VR Headset:

http://youtu.be/ngMOngbsdY4



Sold.

Skyrim VR, BELIEVE

 

[keuja]

I'm sure this has been posted already but wanted bring up the fact that he grabbed the knights arm, cut it off, beat the knight with his own arm, and then threw said arm away.


Project Morpheus - Hands On with Sony's VR Headset:

http://youtu.be/ngMOngbsdY4



Sold.

 

[serversurfer]

Was this aimed at me? I'm not saying you (I'm assuming you mean Sony) need it. Palmer luckey says they need it as a bare minimum in order for low persistence to work here http://www.engadget.com/2014/03/19/oculus-rift-development-kit-2/ and abrash says the same thing in that video. Strobing is a problem at 60hz. They want a specific standard of presence that comes from extremely low persistence and sub milimeter head tracking accuracy. I still think its possible to explore other levels of presence without such lofty targets, but they are the experts, in particular Abrash. I don't know shit!

Yes, it's aimed at you.

First, the article you linked contains no quotes from Palmer, and says absolutely nothing about frame rates. Just so you know, Crystal Cove ran at 72 Hz, and I haven't heard a single person complain about flicker when using it. Apparently they found at least one guy though, because DK2 has both 72 and 75 Hz modes, in addition to a 60 Hz mode.

I think it's cool you've taken Abrash's video as your personal VR Bible — it really is an excellent talk — but that being the case, you really should try to pay closer attention to what he's actually saying.

They started out with a 60 Hz display, and that was great and all, but they were getting a lot of motion blur when they turned their heads. Shortening the amount of time the display is actually lit up for each frame solved that.

Problem was, people could perceive the gaps in the light. The solution for that was flashing the display more often. Caring more about having something that worked than figuring out exactly what the minimum frequency actually was, they just built a 95(?) Hz model and called it a day.

Abrash explicitly states in the video that frequencies lower than 95 Hz could also eliminate flicker for most users, but he hadn't personally done the testing to determine what frequency that would be.

Again, Oculus are eliminating flicker at 72 Hz with a 3 ms strobe, and at 75 Hz with a 2 ms strobe. That's less than 90 Hz, not more.

Just for the record, his first demo in that video shows it doesn't matter how shitty and unrealistic your graphics are; it's the experience itself that creates the immersion. PS4 can create presence with no problems at all. Probably better, actually, since they already have motion controls and binaural audio nailed too.

I'm saying it's not an easy fix - running your games at a stable 85+Hz with AA is "something to be concerned about"
I'm not saying it is not possible for Sony or they will not do it.

Perhaps they could start by using non-zero strobe lengths, like Oculus are doing…

 

[Danneee]

Whoa, this goes above and beyond my expectations and I was pretty hyped already.
Can't wait to play around with the consumer version when it's released.

 

[subrock]

http://i.imgur.com/KY3DlbM.gif[/IG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/S5u9l8v.gif[/IG][/QUOTE]

That's insane that that worked.

 

[andromeduck]

No, lowering the persistence without increasing the frame rate causes flicker.
I made a graph. Critical flicker fusion frequency (CFF) is a property of our eyes, and increases with screen brightness and field of view.
For example, Oculus DK2 uses 2ms persistence at 75 Hz.

this would make more sense if it was period vs duty cycle (% time lit)

 

[Leb]

Abrash explicitly states in the video that frequencies lower than 95 Hz could also eliminate flicker for most users, but he hadn't personally done the testing to determine what frequency that would be.

It's worth noting that Abrash went on to speculate that:

I have the same issues – LED Christmas lights are a problem, for sure – and that’s why our prototype is running at 95 Hz, a speed at which no one has detected flicker. Flicker varies with contrast, but I think the acceptable refresh for flicker will turn out to be lower than 95 and higher than 70. Probably something like 85 or 90, given that CRT flicker seemed completely solved at 85 Hz.

 

[Man]

Just a flesh-wound.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Agree, but from a distance. That view would be breathtaking. But, once you're on it, or very close on the ground, the whole screen would be blocked by walls of textures and you'd forget about the size and it would feel like a crawling around on normal terrain. That comparison is necessary to show that the colossi are actually colossi. We saw that they were 100 times taller than the trees. That comparison/contrast would only be available briefly when the player is at a distance if it is a first person view.

That bird's eye view gave the game it's scope and the colossi their shock value. The player could compare the full bodies to the surrounding environs. In first person, running on the back of one would seem like running on brown terrain of any given FPS.

I'm certainly no programmer so there's probably geniuses out there with ideas on how to beat the problem.

The whole advantage of this technology is giving you a sense of presence in the world where you can perceive the depth and scale of things as you actually would. Seeing the 100 meter tall Colossi coming towards you would be so much more intimidating. You're right you might only see textures if you look straight ahead, but you'd be looking up and around to see where you can climb to and when you look down you'll feel that scale of a hundred meter fall

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

I'm sure this has been posted already but wanted bring up the fact that he grabbed the knights arm, cut it off, beat the knight with his own arm, and then threw said arm away.


Project Morpheus - Hands On with Sony's VR Headset:

http://youtu.be/ngMOngbsdY4



Sold.

That is stunning!

This looks like it may be more advanced than thought.

The real edge this thing has over Oculus is the fact that Sony already has the move technology to pair with it.

 

[Leb]

That is stunning!

This looks like it may be more advanced than thought.

The real edge this thing has over Oculus is the fact that Sony already has the move technology to pair with it.

Which is not without irony, given that the one area that almost everyone said needed improvement was the integration with the Move controllers.

 

[serversurfer]

It's worth noting that Abrash went on to speculate that:

Again, Oculus are achieving fusion at 72-75 Hz. Maybe Abrash is talking about a 1 ms strobe. Or maybe, as he says, he's just guessing.

 

[Pop]

I'm sure this has been posted already but wanted bring up the fact that he grabbed the knights arm, cut it off, beat the knight with his own arm, and then threw said arm away.


Project Morpheus - Hands On with Sony's VR Headset:

http://youtu.be/ngMOngbsdY4



Sold.

WOW

Now that was beyond what I expected.

 

[Billen]

I am sad that they did not show the surgery simulator or similar. It would have been awesome to see peoples reactions.

 

[Ark]

I'm sure this has been posted already but wanted bring up the fact that he grabbed the knights arm, cut it off, beat the knight with his own arm, and then threw said arm away.


Project Morpheus - Hands On with Sony's VR Headset:

http://youtu.be/ngMOngbsdY4



Sold.

Wooooooooooooooooah shit.

Colour me sold.

 

[RalchAC]

I'm sure this has been posted already but wanted bring up the fact that he grabbed the knights arm, cut it off, beat the knight with his own arm, and then threw said arm away.


Project Morpheus - Hands On with Sony's VR Headset:

http://youtu.be/ngMOngbsdY4



Sold.

Ok guys, it looks like it's time for me to start saving money. Day-one buyer here.

 

[gofreak]

Eurogamer impressions. Whole article is worth a read.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-03-20-how-does-morpheus-shape-up-to-oculus

Project Morpheus, perhaps unsurprisingly given the breadth of Sony's expertise and resources, comes strong off the blocks. As an experience it's comparable to Oculus - to the DK2, that is, the most recent iteration of the headset that incorporates Crystal Cove and that opened up pre-orders yesterday - although there are clear points of differentiation.

There's a fair bit more light bleeding into the viewing area, a slim slit just below your field of vision that doesn't seem to be rectifiable by adjusting the optics. The viewing angle, too, is noticeably smaller than the Oculus, even if the difference is minimal - on your visual peripheral there's a clear edge to the image, though it's thankfully slight enough not to break the feeling of immersion.

And what a feeling of immersion it is. Project Morpheus' tracking feels on a par with Oculus, even taking into account the advances brought about by the implementation of Crystal Cove.

There is one other setback to Morpheus right now, though it's one that's likely to be remedied throughout the development process. Motion blur is much more pronounced on Morpheus than it is on Oculus' DK2, and image quality is also noticeably not quite on par. Both are running at 1080p, but Morpheus' decision to go with LCD displays rather than the OLED used on Oculus hurts it a little - good thing, then, that Sony's already looking at exploring OLED for its own device.

The experiences themselves, though, show clearer gaps between the two. The Deep, a short, barely interactive experience that casts you under the sea in a diving cage, shows how the ability to look behind you works wonders for Morpheus.

The Castle demo shows where Morpheus' other advantages come into play. You're in a courtyard, wielding two PlayStation Move controllers that control a pair of in-game hands. With them you can knock around a rag doll knight, or pick up nearby swords to slice off its limbs one by one. You can even reach out and grab separate parts of the knight, holding its head up before severing it in one swift swipe. What's really impressive is how you can move about in that space - the PlayStation Camera allows you a relatively large field of movement, allowing you to walk around a small area of the courtyard. By the time a large dragon sweeps into view before coming crashing down in the courtyard, towering over you, it's hard not to feel totally immersed within the game world.

Morpheus is impressive, then, and as a starting point for Sony's work with virtual reality it's encouraging that it's already achieved a parity of sorts with Oculus, a device that's benefitted from the input of an entire community. There are still reservations, though - The Deep and Castle were both running on PS4, and as relatively non-interactive experiences they still offered an exciting insight into what's possible on Morpheus. More traditional games like Eve Valkyrie and Thief though - the latter sadly wasn't available to play at today's demo - are currently running on PC.

 

[Razgreez]

The only solution I can envision for movement while using the move is an analog foot control of some sort

 

[Durante]

There is one other setback to Morpheus right now, though it's one that's likely to be remedied throughout the development process. Motion blur is much more pronounced on Morpheus than it is on Oculus' DK2, and image quality is also noticeably not quite on par. Both are running at 1080p, but Morpheus' decision to go with LCD displays rather than the OLED used on Oculus hurts it a little - good thing, then, that Sony's already looking at exploring OLED for its own device.

That's a very good thing. It's just so much better.

Morpheus is impressive, then, and as a starting point for Sony's work with virtual reality it's encouraging that it's already achieved a parity of sorts with Oculus, a device that's benefitted from the input of an entire community. There are still reservations, though - The Deep and Castle were both running on PS4, and as relatively non-interactive experiences they still offered an exciting insight into what's possible on Morpheus. More traditional games like Eve Valkyrie and Thief though - the latter sadly wasn't available to play at today's demo - are currently running on PC.

Yeah, I didn't expect Thief VR to be running on PS4, at least not at this point in time.

There's a fair bit more light bleeding into the viewing area, a slim slit just below your field of vision that doesn't seem to be rectifiable by adjusting the optics. The viewing angle, too, is noticeably smaller than the Oculus, even if the difference is minimal - on your visual peripheral there's a clear edge to the image, though it's thankfully slight enough not to break the feeling of immersion.

That's the first time I read about the FoV being smaller. And the outside light sounds annoying. I hope they don't make too many concessions to industrial design in the final product.

No, lowering the persistence without increasing the frame rate causes flicker.
I made a graph. Critical flicker fusion frequency (CFF) is a property of our eyes, and increases with screen brightness and field of view.
For example, Oculus DK2 uses 2ms persistence at 75 Hz.

That seems reasonable enough, well done. I wonder if it would be possible to illustrate the maximum viable motion resolution in the same chart?