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[Conkerkid11]

Nope. Jaime deplores rape, and has on multiple occasions expressed his disgust at the mistreatment of women. He wanted to stop King Aerys from raping his Rhaella. He came close to killing Robert after he forced Cersei on multiple occasions. He got his hand cut off in part due to preventing Brienne's rape. He executes the men who raped Pia.

Where in this does raping his own sister fit? It doesn't, at all. A few of those examples happened in the show so this isn't book exclusive stuff. Jaime has been quite consistent on rape, before and after pushing Bran.

No one is arguing Jaime's moral compass has gone from bad to good; the series is not that simple. But there are certain things Jaime wouldn't do - Book Jaime and Show Jaime - and rape is on the list.

But once again, he doesn't see it as rape.

 

[-griffy-]

Nope. Jaime deplores rape, and has on multiple occasions expressed his disgust at the mistreatment of women. He wanted to stop King Aerys from raping his Rhaella. He came close to killing Robert after he forced Cersei on multiple occasions. He got his hand cut off in part due to preventing Brienne's rape. He executes the men who raped Pia.

Where in this does raping his own sister fit? It doesn't, at all. A few of those examples happened in the show so this isn't book exclusive stuff. Jaime has been quite consistent on rape, before and after pushing Bran.

No one is arguing Jaime's moral compass has gone from bad to good; the series is not that simple. But there are certain things Jaime wouldn't do - Book Jaime and Show Jaime - and rape is on the list.

You act like people can't outwardly hold opinions of things and then make mistakes in moments of passion, or be lying to themselves. You are also comparing things from the book to the character in the show. As far as I'm aware, the only thing he has said about rape in the show is that he would much rather be dead than be raped if he was a captive woman. I don't think that precludes himself from committing the act.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

Nope. Jaime deplores rape, and has on multiple occasions expressed his disgust at the mistreatment of women. He wanted to stop King Aerys from raping his Rhaella. He came close to killing Robert after he forced Cersei on multiple occasions. He got his hand cut off in part due to preventing Brienne's rape. He executes the men who raped Pia.

Where in this does raping his own sister fit? It doesn't, at all. A few of those examples happened in the show so this isn't book exclusive stuff. Jaime has been quite consistent on rape, before and after pushing Bran.

No one is arguing Jaime's moral compass has gone from bad to good; the series is not that simple. But there are certain things Jaime wouldn't do - Book Jaime and Show Jaime - and rape is on the list.

As I said, I don't think Jaime believes he is raping Cersei. He believes that Cersei is his great love... there is no way he is telling himself in his mind that this is rape. He believes he is taking what is his.

Again, that doesn't mean it's not rape.

Also, just because people find something morally reprehensible doesn't mean that under circumstances, they wouldn't be capable of committing said morally reprehensible acts themselves.

Source: the real world, fiction.

 

[real_slime]

He is furious at her at the moment he grabs her, calling her a hateful woman. This isn't about love or sex, it's about hate and it's an attack.

I don't feel like sitting back and letting the rationalisation brigade come in and start telling us all about the various subtle ways in which this might make some kind of warped sense, or even come from love on some level. That kinda nonsense doesn't fly.

This was a bullshit storytelling decision which was executed terribly, and is part of a pattern in this show where it is all too eager to show women being sexually assaulted on screen and, while I'll keep my mouth as shut as possible on the point, does not actually even come from the books so it can't be justified as necessary to the larger story. All of the worst of what I'm talking about - from Dany's rape by Drogo in S1 and her subsequent love of him, to Ros being strung up and killed by Joffrey, and now to this and countless little instances of incidental humiliation along the way - this show is absolutely fine with exploiting sexual violence against women for very little meaningful return beyond reveling in its own depravity. It serves nothing.

There was a better way to do this, and through incompetence and ignorance, Game of Thrones done fucked up big time this week.

 

[Conkerkid11]

He is furious at her at the moment he grabs her, calling her a hateful woman. This isn't about love or sex, it's about hate and it's an attack.

I don't feel like sitting back and letting the rationalisation brigade come in and start telling us all about the various subtle ways in which this might make some kind of warped sense, or even come from love on some level. That kinda nonsense doesn't fly.

This was a bullshit storytelling decision which was executed terribly, and is part of a pattern in this show where it is all too eager to show women being sexually assaulted on screen and, while I'll keep my mouth as shut as possible on the point, does not actually even come from the books. All of the worst of what I'm talking about - from Dany's rape by Drogo in S1 and her subsequent love of him, to Ros being strung up and killed by Joffrey, and now to this and countless little instances of incidental humiliation along the way - this show is absolutely fine with exploiting sexual violence against women for very little meaningful return.

There was a better way to do this, and through incompetence and ignorance, Game of Thrones done fucked up big time this week.

It's a good thing you're replying to nobody in particular and restating what's been mentioned several times since the episode aired, otherwise you might actually add some insight to this conversation.

 

[real_slime]

It's a good thing you're replying to nobody in particular and restating what's been mentioned several times since the episode aired, otherwise you might actually add some insight to this conversation.

What in my post is wrong and why?

 

[Exterminieren]

I think the rape scene was a misstep, but it does make me incredibly interested about how people are going to react to Tyrion murdering Shae.

I have a feeling they'll have the Drogo/fighting pit scene at the end of this season.
Sure, Mereen took fucking forever in the books, but I don't think they'll draw it out on the show.

Quite apart from anything else... where would this leave Tyrion's arc?

 

[-griffy-]

The Inside the Episode is up on HBO.com (not YouTube yet).

Here's the showrunners on the Jaime/Cersei scene:
David Benioff:

I mean the whole episode is kind of a series of inappropriate funeral scenes.

D.B. Weiss:

Jaime enters the scene and then it becomes a very different scene. "Why have the gods made me love a hateful woman?" He's not saying he doesn't love her, he's saying he wishes he loved someone less hateful, but unfortunately he loves her and she happens to be his sister on top of it.

David Benioff:

It becomes a really kind of horrifying scene, because you see obviously Joffrey's body right there, and you see that Cersei is resisting this and she's saying no, and he's forcing himself on her. So it was a really uncomfortable scene and a tricky scene to shoot.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

Nope. Jaime deplores rape, and has on multiple occasions expressed his disgust at the mistreatment of women. He wanted to stop King Aerys from raping his Rhaella. He came close to killing Robert after he forced Cersei on multiple occasions. He got his hand cut off in part due to preventing Brienne's rape. He executes the men who raped Pia.

Where in this does raping his own sister fit? It doesn't, at all. A few of those examples happened in the show so this isn't book exclusive stuff. Jaime has been quite consistent on rape, before and after pushing Bran.

No one is arguing Jaime's moral compass has gone from bad to good; the series is not that simple. But there are certain things Jaime wouldn't do - Book Jaime and Show Jaime - and rape is on the list.

I agree. The whole point of his character, whether or not you've read the books, is that he keeps finding moments to gradually redeem himself. Raping his sister, or any woman, for that matter, is completely against who he is. It doesn't matter if it was incest or not; of course, it's gross, but rape is rape, no matter the context. The showrunners have turned this scene from a moment of passion into a forced act of sexual frustration.

This isn't a moment of passion, at all. It's a moment of trying to convince himself that Cersei still loves him the same way by forcing her to have sex with him.

 

[Dr.Acula]

whoops, this is the Book thread! Anyway, reading this thread is interesting because I didn't know the context of the original Cersei/Jaime sex/rape scene.

It's sad because not only does it change Jaime, it changes Cersei too. The show makes it seem as if she's rejecting her incestuous relationship, rejecting the circumstances, and too grief-stricken to consider sex. While the original passage makes her seem like a FREAK, which she is. It complicates and deepens her character to have consensual sex then and there, while having her being raped doesn't really give her character a chance to grow any way at all.

The Dany/Drogo thing is interesting too. As a viewer, it happens in the pilot with characters we just met, so I chalk it up to the "forget about it" aspect of TV writing. I'm sure it doesn't come off as as bad as I watched episodes with a week break in between, but I see how bingers in the future might give pause. And thematically it still kinda works because they can't communicate and have just met.

The most interesting thing of all is the showrunners turning two instances of sex into rape.

 

[Anton Sugar]

But once again, he doesn't see it as rape.

What does this even mean? Many rapists don't see what they have done as rape.

 

[A Human Becoming]

Even if executed poorly, at least it gave us something to talk about in an otherwise boring episode.

 

[real_slime]

whoops, this is the Book thread!

yeah, I better watch myself! thought i was posting in the non-book thread a minute ago. i've been skipping back and forth a bit today with all the controversy...

 

[Walshicus]

As I said, I don't think Jaime believes he is raping Cersei.

Indeed. I mean we have our outside view of the event which makes it pretty clear what happened, but to the character Jaime it's something different.

I mean we may all regard the distinction as nonsense, but there's a reason the "rape" versus "rape rape" delineation has traction with some people.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

What does this even mean? Many rapists don't see what they have done as rape.

Of course they don't.

I was addressing the person who said "Jaime hates rape, therefore he would never do something like this".

The point being that Jaime almost certainly doesn't see it as rape in his own mind, and I do not believe this to be out of character for Jaime.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I agree. The whole point of his character, whether or not you've read the books, is that he keeps finding moments to gradually redeem himself. Raping his sister, or any woman, for that matter, is completely against who he is. It doesn't matter if it was incest or not; of course, it's gross, but rape is rape, no matter the context. The showrunners have turned this scene from a moment of passion into a forced act of sexual frustration.

Exactly, especially the bolded. A HUGE part of Jaime's arc, if not the entirety of his arc, is him wondering if he'll ever been able to not only change as a person, but if he'll ever be able to shake off his reputation. Which, funnily enough, is what people here keep using to justify his actions: "he's always been bad" "he killed tons of Stark men" "he killed his cousin".

 

[PsychoSoldier]

It's far too simple to say that the show has shown a propensity of sexual violence relative to the books when it has purposely avoid some of the really messed up Ramsay stuff in that regard.

That being said, I'm not sure what the rape scene adds---I feel like it just sullies Jamie in viewers' eyes and makes us empathize with Cersei, which is something that can be done in other ways.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I think the rape scene was a misstep, but it does make me incredibly interested about how people are going to react to Tyrion murdering Shae.



Quite apart from anything else... where would this leave Tyrion's arc?

I guess they could speed that up as well, because having Tyrion dawdle about with a dwarf GF is laughable as fuck and almost Dwarfploation. He should be on a boat to Essos before this season ends.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

Even if executed poorly, at least it gave us something to talk about in an otherwise boring episode.

Disagree on the episode being boring!

I thought there were many great scenes...
-Sansa's escape
-Tywin/Tommen
-Cersei/Jaime
-all Arya/Hound scenes
-Tywin/Oberyn
-Davos/Shireen

I thought all of those were great scenes, and I found pretty much every scene at least entertaining. But to each their own.

 

[-griffy-]

Disagree on the episode being boring!

I thought there were many great scenes...
-Sansa's escape
-Tywin/Tommen
-Cersei/Jaime
-all Arya/Hound scenes
-Tywin/Oberyn
-Davos/Shireen

I thought all of those were great scenes, and I found pretty much every scene at least entertaining. But to each their own.

I thought it was one of the strongest single episodes of the series to date. There wasn't some crazy plot point like a character death or anything, but from a craft/filmmaking perspective it saw every facet of the show firing on all cylinders, from directing to editing to acting to writing to effects. And it bums me out that the rape scene is dominating the conversation of what, to me, was a great episode of the show. I thought it was a much stronger episode of the show than last weeks, even if a more important thing happened in last weeks episode.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

Exactly, especially the bolded. A HUGE part of Jaime's arc, if not the entirety of his arc, is him wondering if he'll ever been able to not only change as a person, but if he'll ever be able to shake off his reputation. Which, funnily enough, is what people here keep using to justify his actions: "he's always been bad" "he killed tons of Stark men" "he killed his cousin".

With all due respect, I believe it might serve you guys to take on a more nuanced view of character development.

Just because a "bad" character starts becoming more of a "good" character and then does a "bad" thing, it doesn't ruin his character development. It just throws a wrench into it, makes it a bit more complicated.

People who change in real life, and the best characters in fiction, rarely follow a straight course in their development.

 

[Anton Sugar]

That being said, I'm not sure what the rape scene adds---I feel like it just sullies Jamie in viewers' eyes and makes us empathize with Cersei, which is something that can be done in other ways.

I can only see them using it as a way to validate Cersei pushing Jaime away (instead of her just no longer liking the "new" Jaime, plus his lost hand), but yeah, I think the cost of Jaime's character is far too great and should have been handled in another way.

 

[Cornballer]

- Game of Thrones Season 4: Episode #3 Clip - Dany's Speech (HBO)

 

[Kain]

The thing is we see Jaime's redemption because we have a book and a half of advantage over the show. His ascend to goodguyness begins when he saves Brienne, returns to KL, fucks Cersei and then after the second time he tries to fuck her he realizes they both have changed and there is no turning back. Remember when he tells her, after Tywin's death, that they should go to a farm and live the rest of their lives there, that he doesn't care about anything but her and she mocks him and they separate for good.

That's when he begins to behave like a good guy (well, more or less). That's when he decides to fight and protect his son and the kingdoms, when he is free from Cersei's clutches and realizes that there is more to life than just being handsome and cool (Zoolander style).

So, until the rift between him and Cersei happens his redemption hasn't truly begun and he still behaves like a douche.

That said, I never understood the fuck scene in front of Joffrey's corpse and it wasn't well translated into the TV series. It would have been just as ankward and strange if it was consensual.

 

[LordCanti]

I can only see them using it as a way to validate Cersei pushing Jaime away (instead of her just no longer liking the "new" Jaime, plus his lost hand), but yeah, I think the cost of Jaime's character is far too great and should have been handled in another way.

Pretty much. It's the same thing they did with Tyrion telling Shae that she's a whore and that she should go away.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

The thing is we see Jaime's redemption because we have a book and a half of advantage over the show. His ascend to goodguyness begins when he saves Brienne, returns to KL, fucks Cersei and then after the second time he tries to fuck her he realizes they both have changed and there is no turning back. Remember when he tells her, after Tywin's death, that they should go to a farm and live the rest of their lives there, that he doesn't care about anything but her and she mocks him and they separate for good.

That's when he begins to behave like a good guy (well, more or less). That's when he decides to fight and protect his son and the kingdoms, when he is free from Cersei's clutches and realizes that there is more to life than just being handsome and cool (Zoolander style).

So, until the rift between him and Cersei happens his redemption hasn't truly begun and he still behaves like a douche.

That said, I never understood the fuck scene in front of Joffrey's corpse and it wasn't well translated into the TV series. It would have been just as ankward and strange if it was consensual.

Yeah.

People really need to have more patience sometimes.

I understand it's difficult in the moment, but I think once people see how things play out over the next couple of seasons, there won't be so many people still vehemently on the "David & Dan destroyed Jaime's character!" bandwagon.

 

[CrocMother]

This show is definitely going to miss Charles Dance.

 

[real_slime]

Yeah.

People really need to have more patience sometimes.

I understand it's difficult in the moment, but I think once people see how things play out over the next couple of seasons, there won't be so many people still vehemently on the "David & Dan destroyed Jaime's character!" bandwagon.

Gonna be difficult to overlook rape unless he does some serious repenting. Just fuckin bummed that we're starting over from square 1 with this guy because the creators don't know how to show consent properly.

 

[fallengorn]

That said, I never understood the fuck scene in front of Joffrey's corpse and it wasn't well translated into the TV series. It would have been just as ankward and strange if it was consensual.

Well, it was vastly different circumstances in the books. That was them reuniting and I can understand, through all the mixed emotions going on, that they end up having sex by Joffrey's corpse.

In the show, it's not really this big reunion. It's just Jaime being angry and frustrated.

 

[Anton Sugar]

With all due respect, I believe it might serve you guys to take on a more nuanced view of character development.

IMO, raping your sister-lover is as far from a "nuanced" approach to character development as you can get.

Yeah.

People really need to have more patience sometimes.

I understand it's difficult in the moment, but I think once people see how things play out over the next couple of seasons, there won't be so many people still vehemently on the "David & Dan destroyed Jaime's character!" bandwagon.

I'm completely okay with having Jaime commit a bad or morally ambiguous deed in order to keep us guessing about who he truly is.

I do not think a rape scene would have been at the top of my list for exploring this.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

This show is definitely going to miss Charles Dance.

Yeah. It will. No doubt about it.

Fortunately Lena and Jaime are such great characters, that I believe they will be able to shoulder the load in order to keep King's Landing interesting in Season 5.

 

[-griffy-]

Gonna be difficult to overlook rape unless he does some serious repenting. Just fuckin bummed that we're starting over from square 1 with this guy because the creators don't know how to show consent properly.

Based on the showrunners themselves, I don't know that there was supposed to be explicit consent:
The Inside the Episode is up on HBO.com (not YouTube yet).

Here's the showrunners on the Jaime/Cersei scene:
David Benioff:

I mean the whole episode is kind of a series of inappropriate funeral scenes.

D.B. Weiss:

Jaime enters the scene and then it becomes a very different scene. "Why have the gods made me love a hateful woman?" He's not saying he doesn't love her, he's saying he wishes he loved someone less hateful, but unfortunately he loves her and she happens to be his sister on top of it.

David Benioff:

It becomes a really kind of horrifying scene, because you see obviously Joffrey's body right there, and you see that Cersei is resisting this and she's saying no, and he's forcing himself on her. So it was a really uncomfortable scene and a tricky scene to shoot.

This event doesn't erase what he has done, or what he will do. It makes the character even more complex and his relationship with the audience more difficult and, in my opinion, interesting.

 

[ultron87]

I can only see them using it as a way to validate Cersei pushing Jaime away (instead of her just no longer liking the "new" Jaime, plus his lost hand), but yeah, I think the cost of Jaime's character is far too great and should have been handled in another way.

It puts the entire rest of their relationship arc into a really gross light. In the books it is Cersei pushing him away due to paranoia and the fact that he isn't useful anymore. It is all on her. Now she's justifiably rejecting a continued relationship with her rapist. It casts her as the victim in the whole ordeal when she should be the one that is ruining everything herself.

One of the big moments for Jaime in the book is burning Cersei's letter. That's when he finally stops taking all her bullshit as he realizes she is only asking for him back now that he is the only one who can save her. What does this moment become now? Cersei is reaching out to the man who hurt her as a last resort and even gets rejected there.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

IMO, raping your sister-lover is as far from a "nuanced" approach to character development as you can get.



I'm completely okay with having Jaime commit a bad or morally ambiguous deed in order to keep us guessing about who he truly is.

I do not think a rape scene would have been at the top of my list for exploring this.

No one is saying that the act of rape itself is "nuanced".

Are you trying to claim that the act of throwing children out a window is "nuanced"?

Of course not. Neither of these things is nuanced.

Being a "nuanced" character doesn't just involve making actions that are vaguely both good and bad. It can also be a character that is capable of doing things that are both clearly good and clearly bad.

 

[Anton Sugar]

It puts the entire rest of their relationship arc into a really gross light. In the books it is Cersei pushing him away due to paranoia and the fact that he isn't useful anymore. It is all on her. Now she's justifiably rejecting a continued relationship with her rapist. It casts her as the victim in the whole ordeal when she should be the one that is ruining everything herself.

One of the big moments for Jaime in the book is burning Cersei's letter. That's when he finally stops taking all her bullshit as he realizes she is only asking for him back now that he is the only one who can save her. What does this moment become now? Cersei is reaching out to the man who hurt her as a last resort and even gets rejected there.

Oh man, I completely forgot about the letter and how BIG that scene was/is.

 

[Kuroyume]

Go ask someone who has never read a single page in the books. Ask them what happened in last night's episode.

I would wager that Ygritte head-shotting that little boy's father or Sandor Clegane stealing from the kindly old man are more often cited.

Really? This is out of the norm behavior for Sandor?

 

[real_slime]

Based on the showrunners themselves, I don't know that there was supposed to be explicit consent:
The Inside the Episode is up on HBO.com (not YouTube yet).

Here's the showrunners on the Jaime/Cersei scene:
David Benioff:

D.B. Weiss:

David Benioff:


This event doesn't erase what he has done, or what he will do. It makes the character even more complex and his relationship with the audience more difficult and, in my opinion, interesting.

Yeah, beginning to see that it was supposed to be taken as rape ('to begin with' at least, although i totally disagree with that premise). Even so, that's only one of the problems I have with the scene. The fact it wasn't in the books and they put it in there, in contradiction of Jamie's characterisation up until this point, just really rubs me wrong.

 

[-griffy-]

Here's a post from a non-book thread on another forum that I'm just going to drop here:

I really like how this episode tries to subvert how you've been feeling about some of the characters lately. Jaime's Awesome! Incestuous rape on dead son's corpse. The Hound is really making progress! Cripples a helpless man and steals all his money. We've got to root for the Night's Watch! Take extra steps to remind you they are all thieves, murderers, and rapists. Ygrette is hot and she spared Jon Snow! Pillages a defenseless village along with some cannibals.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

It puts the entire rest of their relationship arc into a really gross light. In the books it is Cersei pushing him away due to paranoia and the fact that he isn't useful anymore. It is all on her. Now she's justifiably rejecting a continued relationship with her rapist. It casts her as the victim in the whole ordeal when she should be the one that is ruining everything herself.

One of the big moments for Jaime in the book is burning Cersei's letter. That's when he finally stops taking all her bullshit as he realizes she is only asking for him back now that he is the only one who can save her. What does this moment become now? Cersei is reaching out to the man who hurt her as a last resort and even gets rejected there.

You make a fair point.

However, I encourage you to give the show a little room to breathe. We still have at least 2 full seasons before we would get to such a moment. Let's see how things play out. I believe the writers are more than capable of getting it to work.

 

[Real Hero]

Here's a post from a non-book thread on another forum that I'm just going to drop here:

At some point 'complex' does just turn into inconsistent and badly written. I'm not saying it has but it has come close with Jaime.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

Here's a post from a non-book thread on another forum that I'm just going to drop here:

Here's a post from a non-book thread on another forum that I'm just going to drop here:

I really like how this episode tries to subvert how you've been feeling about some of the characters lately. Jaime's Awesome! Incestuous rape on dead son's corpse. The Hound is really making progress! Cripples a helpless man and steals all his money. We've got to root for the Night's Watch! Take extra steps to remind you they are all thieves, murderers, and rapists. Ygrette is hot and she spared Jon Snow! Pillages a defenseless village along with some cannibals.

Exactly. The scene fits in thematically with the other parts of the episode perfectly.

I just think that book readers are confusing Jaime's character being darkened / made more complicated for Jaime's entire character and story arc being ruined.

Jaime will still get to where he is going. This just makes it a bumpier ride, for the audience.

 

[Zabka]

Yeah, beginning to see that it was supposed to be taken as rape ('to begin with' at least, although i totally disagree with that premise). Even so, that's only one of the problems I have with the scene. The fact it wasn't in the books and they put it in there, in contradiction of Jamie's characterisation up until this point, just really rubs me wrong.

I don't think it contradicts his characterization in the context of the show. After all the shit he did to get back to her she rejects him repeatedly and he just loses it. It's a very different situation than in the books.

 

[cubicle47b]

The Tywin scene with Tommen and Cersei was the high point of the episode. Really incredible all-around. One of the best additions to the show I've seen. As for the rape scene, considering it's the end point of Jaime and Cersei's relationship, where Cersei's arc goes from here, and that rapists often don't see what they're doing as rape (rape in relationships or through coercion) I don't hate what they did. It was a little alarming at first, though, especially since I was joking about the scene right before it happened.

 

[HyruleGuardian]

At some point 'complex' does just turn into inconsistent and badly written. I'm not saying it has but it has come close with Jaime.

How is any of these scenes "inconsistent"?

You think Ygritte wouldn't put an arrow through innocent Westerosi?

You think The Hound wouldn't steal?

You think the men of the Night's Watch wouldn't rape Gilly?

I understand that the Jaime/Cersei scene is less clear to many of my fellow book readers.

But I do not see bad writing and inconsistency of character AT ALL.

 

[WhereAreMahDragonz]

With all due respect, I believe it might serve you guys to take on a more nuanced view of character development.

Just because a "bad" character starts becoming more of a "good" character and then does a "bad" thing, it doesn't ruin his character development. It just throws a wrench into it, makes it a bit more complicated.

People who change in real life, and the best characters in fiction, rarely follow a straight course in their development.

The whole point is that we're supposed to be seeing Jaime's upward arc; from the moment he loses his hand, he starts to make decisions that are befitting his vows. He refuses to go to Cersei's aid, he shows Edmure kindness, he actually cares about finding Sansa and Arya. Each act he does makes the viewer sympathize with him, even after all the bad things he's done. By having him blantantly rape his sister, it puts him back at square one without serving any real purpose.

It doesn't make him "gray", it makes him look, from here on out, like a guy who WAS on a path to redemption, but fell off the bandwagon and is now viewed with discontent among viewers of the show.

 

[Real Hero]

But I do not see bad writing and inconsistency of character AT ALL.

I meant just the Jaime scene. I can only see it from a perspective of having a read the books and I think it was badly done.

 

[-griffy-]

The whole point is that we're supposed to be seeing Jaime's upward arc; from the moment he loses his hand, he starts to make decisions that are befitting his vows. He refuses to go to Cersei's aid, he shows Edmure kindness, he actually cares about finding Sansa and Arya. Each act he does makes the viewer sympathize with him, even after all the bad things he's done. By having him blantantly rape his sister, it puts him back at square one without serving any real purpose.

It doesn't make him "gray", it makes him look, from here on out, like a guy who WAS on a path to redemption, but fell off the bandwagon and is now viewed with discontent among viewers of the show.

Why is that the whole point? Just to have Jaime do good deed after good deed on a never ending upwards trajectory? Isn't the actual point to tell a compelling story? And again, conflating book knowledge with show character.

He's still going to do many of the good things going forward. And now the audience will grapple with their feelings about him, which could make for very interesting inner personal drama, as they like when he helps Tyrion, or gives his sword to Brienne, but they feel complicated about liking it because of what he has done. And THAT is the actual point of the character. To present us with a bad guy who we grapple with liking the more we get to know him and see him adapt.

 

[Anton Sugar]

You think Ygritte wouldn't put an arrow through innocent Westerosi?

You think The Hound wouldn't steal?

You think the men of the Night's Watch wouldn't rape Gilly?

You think Jaime wouldn't rape Cersei?

One of these does not belong and sounds much less feasible than the others.

Ygritte has NEVER shown any sort of sympathy to those below the wall, so it fits in fine.

The Hound is even more morally ambiguous that Jaime. If he had KILLED the farmer, that might be the equivalent to Jaime choosing to rape Cersei.

Night's Watch have never been portrayed as anything less than a ragtag group of deserters and thieves.

Jaime, though? Prior to the rape, when was the last time we saw Jaime do something "bad"?

Why is that the whole point? Just to have Jaime do good deed after good deed on a never ending upwards trajectory? Isn't the actual point to tell a compelling story? And again, conflating book knowledge with show character.

I agree, I don't think he needs to do good deed after good deed, but there are better ways of showing how conflicted he is.

It's like the writers went from "hmm, maybe we can have him wrestle with whether or not he still owes Catelyn Stark, or we can have him put into an awkward position by vouching for Brienne, or..." and then thought "nah, let's just use this weird but passionate sex book scene where Cersei says "Do me, put it in me" and turn it into a rape scene where she says "no no" and cries"

 

[Famassu]

I understand that, but it's a bit difficult to work that into a show and not make it incredibly boring. Would you want to watch Arya do hard labor and suffer the pains from that for several episodes?

Harrenhal is a creepy environment. It would require immensely inadequate showrunners to somehow be able to make that place boring in a TV Show. It's not like Arya doing chores is the only thing that happens there. And it would have been a good way of including some more Roose Bolton, given how important a character he has been and is even now that Tywin has been long gone. Do a lot of people really even know who Bolton is when he's stabbing Robb? He's been such a minor character in the series so far, mostly just in a few scenes as one of Robb's advisors. He could've benefited from having more screentime before the Red Wedding.

 

[cubicle47b]

One of these does not belong and sounds much less feasible than the others.

Ygritte has NEVER shown any sort of sympathy to those below the wall, so it fits in fine.

The Hound is even more morally ambiguous that Jaime. If he had KILLED the farmer, that might be the equivalent to Jaime choosing to rape Cersei.

Night's Watch have never been portrayed as anything less than a ragtag group of deserters and thieves.

Jaime, though? Prior to the rape, when was the last time we saw Jaime do something "bad"?

When he murdered his cousin in season 2 to escape prison.