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[The Artful Dodger]

Best to just move on and get back to what's important: new Daario discussion.

This show is going to cancelled just like Luck now for that Horse death.

 

[Cornballer]

That damned scene has basically ruined both threads.

If you have other topics from the show that you'd like to discuss, then by all means post them. Stopping by to just complain about the current subject isn't very helpful.

 

[Speevy]

 

[The Artful Dodger]

That's two too many.

 

[RedShift]

Poor horsey. Died for the crime of being damn thirsty.

 

[Cornballer]

 

[-griffy-]

 

[bishopcruz]

In the show, I only remember Ned asking if Robert had struck her before, and she said no, otherwise Jaime would've killed him.

The raping thing, though, I also remember her saying Robert couldn't even perform in bed (drunk) so she'd "finish him off in other ways."

When you said this I thought that maybe my memory was off. I could have SWORN I read something like that. Currently rereading FeastDance. But I'm not too far in the combo read.

I did find this though for the books:

ASOIF University some of the language is NSFW, here is a paragraph that should be ok:

"Robert’s face was dark with anger. ‘How many times must I tell you to hold your tongue, woman?’

Cersei’s face was a study in contempt. ‘What a jape the gods have made of us two,’ she said. ‘By all rights, you ought to be in skirts and me in mail.’

Purple with rage, the king lashed out, a vicious backhand blow to the side of the head. She stumbled against the table and fell hard, yet Cersei Lannister did not cry out. Her slender fingers brushed her cheek, where the pale smooth skin was already reddening. On the morrow the bruise would cover half her face. ‘I shall wear this as a badge of honor,’ she announced.’

‘Wear it in silence, or I’ll honor you again,’ Robert vowed.” GOT, pg. 429


And this one:


"The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her that night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults grew less frequent. During the first year of their marriage he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the dark.” AFFC, pg. 868

So yeah, Robert did beat and rape her on occasion.

 

[Palmer_v1]

If you have other topics from the show that you'd like to discuss, then by all means post them. Stopping by to just complain about the current subject isn't very helpful.

Consider me suitably shamed.

I was definitely wondering where the rest of the Second Sons were while Daario volunteered for that fight. It's the first time I've definitely though a scene was worse off because of a lack of Fat Belwas.

 

[Yaboosh]

Was this ever implied in the show or the books? I can't recall..

She didn't let Robert fuck her for the last three or so years if the marriage, and would only finish him with her mouth. She says he was always too drunk to remember anyhow.

If he was raping her, she put a stop to it at some point.

 

[HigXx]

So do you think we'll see Coldhands this week?

 

[kirblar]

Maureen Ryan's article was good.

It was. Assuming the series going forward treats it as a consensual encounter going forward, though, it's going to stir up a hornet's nest with people who aren't able to see it as the badly executed scene that it is.

 

[Fuzzy]

So do you think we'll see Coldhands this week?

No. Never.

 

[Cornballer]

I was definitely wondering where the rest of the Second Sons were while Daario volunteered for that fight. It's the first time I've definitely though a scene was worse off because of a lack of Fat Belwas.

I doubt we'll see much of the Second Sons due to time/budget constraints. Belwas was missed, but I thought they handled that scene well all things considered. I'm curious how they're going to pace out Dany's story relative to action in Westeros moving forward as it feels like they're rapidly burning through some of the plot right now.

 

[bishopcruz]

She didn't let Robert fuck her for the last three or so years if the marriage, and would only finish him with her mouth. She says he was always too drunk to remember anyhow.

If he was raping her, she put a stop to it at some point.

But sometimes that wasn't enough, and he did it anyway. It became less common over time, but still happened. It was less her "putting a stop to it" and more Robert getting what he wanted elsewhere, towards the end it only happened when he was really drunk. The interesting thing is her remembering Robert as being ashamed of what he did and playing that he didn't remember it. It's kinda nuts that him actually feeling some level of shame puts him ahead of a LOT of nobles in Westeros. But yeah, the man was pretty far from a saint.

 

[-griffy-]

I doubt we'll see much of the Second Sons due to time/budget constraints. Belwas was missed, but I thought they handled that scene well all things considered. I'm curious how they're going to pace out Dany's story relative to action in Westeros moving forward as it feels like they're rapidly burning through some of the plot right now.

If the pattern holds where they only do around one Dany scene per episode I don't think it will be problematic. And we already know she won't be in episode 9 at all since that will be all wall.

 

[FootballFan]

I have not been reading this thread actively for last few days.

1. What is the General consensus in regards to the last episode?

2. What is this Jaime/Cersei controversy about?

3. Is Jon Snow really Howland Reeds son?

4.Title of next episode?


Thank you.

FootballFan sends his regards.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Awful People: The TV Show

These are all awful people. Some are less awful than others. And some just have awful things happen to them.

 

[Cornballer]

4.Title of next episode?

All of the titles are listed in the OP. Next week is "Oathkeeper"

 

[FootballFan]

All of the titles are listed in the OP. Next week is "Oathkeeper"

Thank you kind sir.

Oathkeeper...aye.

Brienne mission starts.

 

[Moff]

It kind of amused me that the show conveniently forgot that Daario commands all of Dany's sellswords (after they merged the companies together) when they selected him to be her champion or at least assumed everyone watching would forget that.

where are they anway? we have only seen unsullied and a handful dothraki so far in season 4, havent we?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

<3 pip

Indeed. We need more Dolorous Edd one-liners though. That's greatly missing from the show!

I admitted in my earlier post that there are many things that the show has got it right. I am no show hater nor I consider myself to be a book purist, I do think that the show runners have been able to trim characters and storylines masterfully, even if that means that some of my personal favourites are out (Belwas T_T), and I think that they have a knack for tweaking and adapting Martin's plot that it's getting better with each passing season. I do not like to hold into things if that means getting in the way of telling a good story.

But whenever they have tried to get their own vision of the characters, they have worsened them. They didn't made them "different", they made them outright worse: more bidimensonal, less grey, less coherent, less believable, worse written. And furthermore, they have changed them in order to obtein a short sighted cheap shock value scene, or just to validate their pre-existing prejudices about them. I think that the only people who can view Cersei's rape as "coherent" with Jaime's character are the ones who already thought that Jaime was outside of any possible redemption the moment he pushed Bran from the window.

IMHO, the added scenes were good despite its writting, not thanks to it. For example, I think that the idea of substituting Bolton for Tywin during Ayra's staying at Harrenhall was genious, but its execution was made great due to the incredible chemistry between Maisey and Charles Dance and the delivery of their lines, not because the dialogue itself was memorable in any way.

I get were you are coming from. I have readed some of the the interviews to the directors they even said that it was suppoused to "become consensual towards the end". If that's their intention, they failed, since it is clear that for a big chunk of the viewers that Cersei's willingness was not properly conveyed. If so, directors and writters failed to potray that scene properly, and Jaime's character arc has been badly damaged (and Cersei's too) due to plain sheer incompetence, no matter how much I might try to rationalize that mistake by telling myself that it was intentional or that it will pay off in the end.

Fantastic post. Agreed on all counts.

A man has a thirst

(Sorry, I had to.)

2) That scene was freaking awesome in the best Indiana Jones type way

I agree. I laughed out loud. And now I don't blame Dany for swooning at the man.

Was this ever implied in the show or the books? I can't recall..

It was. I dare say it was stated outright. Robert repeatedly raped Cersei during their marriage, and he hit her a few times. Though, she told Ned, "never on the face" (before that one time) or anywhere visible, or Jaime would have killed him.
You could argue that since Cersei loathed Robert so much since their first night of marriage and never once wanted him, and Robert pretty much needed to get heirs on her (he didn't, as we know, but that's besides the point), he had no choice but to rape her at least enough times to get her pregnant. For duty and all that. But from the text it wasn't anything like "sorry but we gotta breed, royal duty and all", just him being a drunk, raping asshole claiming his "right" as husband.

As for Maureen's article, I don't agree with everything but she makes very good points. The one part I disagree with is her claim that it's not completely out of character for Jaime. But she might be considering show-Jaime only (I'm not sure if she's read the books or not). It would be completely out of character for book-Jaime for sure. Now we all know "the show is not the books" and so on, and some show characters were indeed completely transformed and have little in common with their book counterpart (Shae comes to mind), but Jaime's adaptation has been rather faithful, so this is quite jarring and disappointing.

 

[bishopcruz]

I have not been reading this thread actively for last few days.

1. What is the General consensus in regards to the last episode?

Very well done episode, with a ton of awesome quotes and amazing direction by Alex Graves...

2. What is this Jaime/Cersei controversy about?

...except for that scene.

The controversy is kinda nuts right now but it breaks down into a few things. Basically it comes down to the question of whether Jamie raped Cersei or not. The thing is the director says that he intended it to turn consensual by the end. The evidence on screen for that assertion is limited to put it kindly. Then there are those on both sides calling the other side names (ie 'Damn those PC SJWs, and Anyone who didn't see that scene as rape is a horrible person, etc, etc.) and since rape is a touchy subject in the first place that is part of it.

The other part is if it IS rape (or at least perceived as such by many) what does that mean for Jamie's arc from here on out? In the books, Cersei is placed as the one with most of the power in their relationship, with Jamie finally breaking free. That whole arc is now in question.

3. Is Jon Snow really Howland Reeds son?

Yes. If by Howland Reed you mean Rhaegar.

4.Title of next episode?

Oathkeeper.

 

[Kadayi]

I doubt we'll see much of the Second Sons due to time/budget constraints. Belwas was missed, but I thought they handled that scene well all things considered. I'm curious how they're going to pace out Dany's story relative to action in Westeros moving forward as it feels like they're rapidly burning through some of the plot right now.

Yeah you do have to wonder. I suspect they are likely going to have to drum up some decent intrigues. Certainly can't see them spending more than season five in Meereen on top of this. AFFC & ADWD are going to get massively condensed for sure.

But whenever they have tried to get their own vision of the characters, they have worsened them. They didn't made them "different", they made them outright worse: more bidimensonal, less grey, less coherent, less believable, worse written. And furthermore, they have changed them in order to obtein a short sighted cheap shock value scene, or just to validate their pre-existing prejudices about them. I think that the only people who can view Cersei's rape as "coherent" with Jaime's character are the ones who already thought that Jaime was outside of any possible redemption the moment he pushed Bran from the window.

You talk about grey, but yet you hanker for a character that is seemingly one transformed wholesale by virtue of this relationship he has with Brienne. What's realistic about that? Up until he met her his entire life beyond being a Kingsguard revolved around his ongoing relationship with Cersei. That is all that matters to him. He doesn't even care that much about the children they have produced. Within the context of the narrative his sole motivation for escaping is to be reunited with Cersei, and eventually he achieves that but at a dreadful cost to himself. Instead of being overjoyed at their reunion Cersei is dismissive of him because he is no longer the fearsome capable man she was in love with. The nature of the relationship they shared has changed irrevocably, and she reduces him in stature to being merely another pawn to be played and it is that realisation that makes him act out the way that he does.

 

[FootballFan]

Very well done episode, with a ton of awesome quotes and amazing direction by Alex Graves...



...except for that scene.

The controversy is kinda nuts right now but it breaks down into a few things. Basically it comes down to the question of whether Jamie raped Cersei or not. The thing is the director says that he intended it to turn consensual by the end. The evidence on screen for that assertion is limited to put it kindly. Then there are those on both sides calling the other side names (ie 'Damn those PC SJWs, and Anyone who didn't see that scene as rape is a horrible person, etc, etc.) and since rape is a touchy subject in the first place that is part of it.

The other part is if it IS rape (or at least perceived as such by many) what does that mean for Jamie's arc from here on out? In the books, Cersei is placed as the one with most of the power in their relationship, with Jamie finally breaking free. That whole arc is now in question.



Yes. If by Howland Reed you mean Rhaegar.



Oathkeeper.

Thank you for the magnificent summary.

P.S. Howland is Jon's father. It is known.

 

[thequickandthedead]

I seem to have forgotten but did Tywin know about Jaime and Cersei's relationship?

 

[kirblar]

I seem to have forgotten but did Tywin know about Jaime and Cersei's relationship?

It's the worst kept secret in Kings Landing.

 

[Trouble]

It's the worst kept secret in Kings Landing Westeros.

fixt

 

[thequickandthedead]

It's the worst kept secret in Kings Landing.

I mean does he ever reference or mention it?

 

[PFD]

I mean does he ever reference or mention it?

He refers to it as a disgusting rumor or something like that. But he definitely knows

 

[DrForester]

I seem to have forgotten but did Tywin know about Jaime and Cersei's relationship?

The book never says or ever really implies that he knows, but just by the very nature of Tywin's character, it would be foolish to think he doesn't know. That's why he constantly tries to get Cersei and Jaime apart.

 

[Electric_ Cthulhu]

What is the big deal about Strong Belwas? It's been a while since I read the books but I never really cared about him that much.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What is the big deal about Strong Belwas? It's been a while since I read the books but I never really cared about him that much.

A lot of people liked him (myself included) because he was funny and quite badass. I thought he was pretty memorable myself, but I can understand why he was cut, and he's not that important in the grand scheme.

 

[Iksenpets]

Yeah you do have to wonder. I suspect they are likely going to have to drum up some decent intrigues. Certainly can't see them spending more than season five in Meereen on top of this. AFFC & ADWD are going to get massively condensed for sure.



You talk about grey, but yet you hanker for a character that is seemingly one transformed wholesale by virtue of this relationship he has with Brienne. What's realistic about that? Up until he met her his entire life beyond being a Kingsguard revolved around his ongoing relationship with Cersei. That is all that matters to him. He doesn't even care that much about the children they have produced. Within the context of the narrative his sole motivation for escaping is to be reunited with Cersei, and eventually he achieves that but at a dreadful cost to himself. Instead of being overjoyed at their reunion Cersei is dismissive of him because he is no longer the fearsome capable man she was in love with. The nature of the relationship they shared has changed irrevocably, and she reduces him in stature to being merely another pawn to be played and it is that realisation that makes him act out the way that he does.

I don't disagree with the idea that Jaime as seen in the show is at a desperate enough point in his life and is sick enough on the head when it comes to his relationship with Cersei that he could do that, that he's a suitably gray character to do it. The issue is how that's going to color his plot going forward. When Jaime finds out that Cersei wasn't faithful to him while he was away, who's going to sympathize with him anymore? What right does he have to feel betrayed by his rape victim? As someone mentioned above, Cersei is supposed to hold the power in the relationship. Jaime is the hopeless romantic who she manipulates. That's why it's a big deal when Jaime breaks off the relationship and refuses to come to her aid in her trial. But who's going to care now? Now he's the callous rapist who doesn't give a shit what happens to his victim. The scene wasn't necessarily out of character, but it destroys their ability to do justice to Jaime's story going forward.

 

[Brakke]

Yes. If by Howland Reed you mean Rhaegar.

WHAT IF THEY'RE THE SAME PERSON BOOM

Also, "Oathkeeper" is the name of Jaime's Valyrian steel sword.

It was. Assuming the series going forward treats it as a consensual encounter going forward, though, it's going to stir up a hornet's nest with people who aren't able to see it as the badly executed scene that it is.

What does this even mean. "Oh they just did a bad job that's not how it is in the text" doesn't make the thing harmless.

 

[Laurentius]

I also liked Strong Belwas because Roy Dotrice did an amazing voice for him in A Storm of Swords.

...and then completely changed it for ADWD. =(

 

[kirblar]

What does this even mean. "Oh they just did a bad job that's not how it is in the text" doesn't make the thing harmless.

No, what I mean is that if it's treated as a consensual encounter going forward, there are going to be a lot of really upset people as most won't be aware of the issues behind the scenes.

 

[El Daniel]

I hope they will play the Dornishman's wife during the creditsafter Oberyn's face gets smashed in.

The tears will be so good.

 

[FootballFan]

I hope they will play the Dornishman's wife during the creditsafter Oberyn's face gets smashed in.

The tears will be so good.

Wonder how far they will take it. The smashed in face part I mean.

 

[Brakke]

No, what I mean is that if it's treated as a consensual encounter going forward, there are going to be a lot of really upset people as most won't be aware of the issues behind the scenes.

I'm sayin' they'd be right to feel that way. Fortunately, I don't think they'd have to treat it as consensual. Jaime / Cersei are close to having a proper falling out anyway.

Hopefully they don't already have a scene in the bag where Cersei says "hey wow thanks for that awesome consensual sex next to my dead son the other day".

 

[Massa]

Wonder how far they will take it. The smashed in face part I mean.

I thought they changed it from smashed face to cut in half for Elia? They would probably change it for Oberyn as well if that's the case.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

I don't understand why they said purple contacts wouldn't work.

Thought it was a comfort issue?

 

[dubq]

I don't understand why they said purple contacts wouldn't work.

Via: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/House_Targaryen

The TV series opted not to portray Targaryens with purples eyes, partially due to the logistical difficulty in matching up purple contact lenses for actors in every shot. The TV series actually did originally film Viserys and Daenerys wearing violet contact lenses, but showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss quickly abandoned their use. As they explained in the Season 1 Blu-ray episode commentaries, "actors act with their eyes, and [the lenses] really hurt the emotion."

 

[FootballFan]

Via: http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/House_Targaryen

In that case maybe the lenses may have been beneficial for Emilia.

 

[desh]

Does anyone else think the show will have Tywin pull the strings in order for the Mountain and Oberyn to fight in the trial by combat? I get the feeling from Tywin's last conversation with Oberyn, that he alluded to arranging for Oberyn to get his revenge on The Mountain, and what better way to do that than with the trial by combat?

 

[Kadayi]

The scene wasn't necessarily out of character, but it destroys their ability to do justice to Jaime's story going forward.

The proof lies in the pudding. I'm not entirely convinced by all of the doom mongering doing the rounds here, or that the motivators used in the books for the why of things will necessarily be the same ones deployed in the show (it's adaptation after all). But I also find it somewhat amusing that people seem more concerned about Jamie's good name than Cersei's well being.

 

[Ikael]

You talk about grey, but yet you hanker for a character that is seemingly one transformed wholesale by virtue of this relationship he has with Brienne. What's realistic about that? Up until he met her his entire life beyond being a Kingsguard revolved around his ongoing relationship with Cersei. That is all that matters to him. He doesn't even care that much about the children they have produced. Within the context of the narrative his sole motivation for escaping is to be reunited with Cersei, and eventually he achieves that but at a dreadful cost to himself. Instead of being overjoyed at their reunion Cersei is dismissive of him because he is no longer the fearsome capable man she was in love with. The nature of the relationship they shared has changed irrevocably, and she reduces him in stature to being merely another pawn to be played and it is that realisation that makes him act out the way that he does.

He is transformed because of the combination of a series of events: a lenghty captivity, the traumatic loose of his hand, and yes, seeing true chilvary in Brienne. It is quite the ordeal, and it is pretty believable to me that these type of events would change his character, or anyone's, for that matter.

Yes, the nature of the relationship they shared has changed quite a lot. They reunite, she's dismissive, he's frustrated, aye. But "you can't have everything that you want in this world no matter how much of a rich boy you are " was suppoused to be a lesson that he already learnt. He has experienced for the first time in his life frustration, and thus, learnt to cope with that emotion (once again, loosing his hand was probably the most pivotal event that lead to the new and improved Jaime). But nope, back to square one because apparently, rough sex is somehow filmed in the same way as a rape *sigh*

 

[Speevy]

It's always amusing to me that when an event is adapted poorly, it's vivid in its failings, but a good adaptation makes people imagine that all the book events surrounding the scene happened.

Jaime did not learn a lesson. If this show is consistent about anything, it's how slowly everyone's character changes.

 

[CambriaRising]

So I'm guessing episode 8 might show the southern attack on the wall, with the 9th episode being completely comprised of the northern attack?

Or maybe 9 being both since it seems like they are going to send some guys to craster's to kill the mutineers?

 

[Ikael]

From the non-book spoiler tread:

Originally Posted by Funky Papa

Just chiming in to say that I *love* Meereen. Concept artists have been doing a pretty good job with every city state, but Meereen has a very Summerian look that looks just right. It feels somewhat familiar, yet alien and incredibly ancient at the same time. Other shows would have just turned it into another moorish looking enclave and leave it at that. I also liked the details that it's not just another city state in the middle of a huge desert, but built into what looks like a somewhat fertile part of Essos, more Mediterranean than Saharian.

I agree.
When there's the shot of her on the horse in front of it [Meeren], i wished the whole show would take place there, instead of King's Landing.

Be careful with what you wish for, man