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[Madness]

I think there's also something in there about backseat modding. Anyway, I'm engaging in real conversations between the jokes, not just drive-by posting. The subject of this thread genuinely interests me and I want to talk about it.

Yeah there is, which is why I didn't say anything about any consequences for you, or that anything should happen to you. You just acted like you weren't doing anything wrong, and I showed you that the point of NeoGAF is to avoid the trolling that goes on in other forums.

And you've done it several times and when someone else called you out on it to stop, you doubled down and said you're doing it for the chuckles.

 

[Zevenberge]

"I don't want to define him so much that it becomes limiting to the players. I want players to focus on other parts of the trailer and not specifically on the character because the character Link represents, again, the player."

So basically, voice-acting or text lines from Link at all deconfirmed.

 

[MoogleWizard]

I don't understand why this debate about him being a girl even came up. He's always been a teenage pretty boy, I don't get what's so different about the new design.

Is it really hard to understand why people might not want a well recognized character to switch gender or race or whatever? I doubt anyone would care if we could just play as Zelda ( Nintendo pls) or some new girl character. Is that awful or something?

I don't understand it either. I don't want Nintendo to give established characters that have been around for 25 years a sex change because that would be some pretty lame pandering. The Zelda canon is already all over the place, let's at least keep some continuity. It's like complaining that Mario is a guy, I don't get it.

There's this character called Princess Zelda, she's female and the series is named after her. She's been an archer and a mage throughout the series and would even allow for some new gameplay ideas because of that. Why not ask for her to be playable when you want to play as a female? Or ask for a new female character? Why does it have to be a sex change of an established character. If Link would be made a girl would those that asked for it complain if Zelda kept her gender?

 

[MCN]

Because then, to me and many others, it's not Link anymore, and shouldn't bear his name. Evidently some people consider Link to be nothing but a cypher, but I really don't. He's a character in my head, and he's male. Every game he gets changed up a bit, but he's always Link. And despite what many seem to be saying, one's gender does in fact affect the character, even if the character is androgynous (otherwise we wouldn't be having his discussion).

I don't care if the next ten Zelda games star some new female character, but Link is male in my mind. There's no reason to change him, because if he's so supposedly unimportant to everything, then a new character is just as worthy to be the main character

My theory is that, as the Hero of Time, each incarnation of Link is actually the same character, who appears in different parts of different timelines when the Goddesses deem it to be necessary. That's why all Links have the same basic appearance, the same voice, and react to situations in the same way.

 

[Not]

it didn't say anything to me that hey, Link is not a coloured male, men of color are weak.

Want to point out for everyone reading that that's definitely not the case for everyone. Google "representation matters."

 

[Aquamarine]

Samus is normally hidden in a large suit.
You could replace Samus with the main character of the Dead Space series and most people wouldn't see a difference while playing the game.

1) Take the current design of Link

2) Bump up his chest a little bit:

3) Change masculine grunts to feminine-ish grunts

4) Now all of a sudden, Link is a girl!

Seems very similar to swapping out a girl in a large suit to a boy in a large suit.


In the end, it seems like the only real change by making Link a girl is that he can't romance the resident princess of the day in the storyline, unless Nintendo wants to be socially progressive. ;-)

 

[caleb1915]

It's less about "I don't want Link to be a girl!", and more about how gender is treated in games like this. Is it an integral part of the character? Or is it a completely variable trait?

It's an integral part of the character when it's designed that way, and can be really interesting. But most of the time in the Zelda games being a boy has no bearing on Link's character as he is just an embodiment of the player.

I think it could be really cool writing this Link's character in a female perspective, maybe taking more liberty with the cycle of the hero of time by showing that this reincarnation hasn't happened before which puts more pressure on her. Or changes the interactions with other characters that are familiar with the hero of time.

 

[Apple of Enlightenment]

You are right that the statements from Aonuma in the article don't really directly say that (other than he does say it is Link). The author however says this:



So I would assume there was more to the interview that hasn't been transcribed yet (he said in the other thread it was over 40 minutes long)

That's an editorialisation. In a matter such as this, if you have an explicit quotation any good journo would use it. Until such a quotation is presented this is really still up in the air.

 

[PdotMichael]

And? How does the change the fact that Link wouldn't have to change looks if he was a female? And that he's a different reincarnation every time?

The reincernation background storyelement is pointless if we talking about character recognizability. There is a reason why all the reincernations look like, well, Link.

 

[A-V-B]

Has that really been a thing? I've seen people asking for a Zelda game where you protag as Zelda but I've never seen anyone asking for fem-Link before this E3. (Pornography not withstanding.)

What might be sort of cool, for a spinoff game, is a world where one version of Link dies before he can begin his story, and Zelda takes over the quest to try and live up to his memory. That'd be a neat, emotional game.

Like maybe it's a harder road for her than it would've been for Link, because she just isn't him, but she succeeds in the end.

 

[Monocle]

It's less about "I don't want Link to be a girl!", and more about how gender is treated in games like this. Is it an integral part of the character? Or is it a completely variable trait?

That's reasonable on the surface, but the fact is we know so little about the game right now that if the new Link were actually female, there wouldn't really be a basis for saying the gender thing was a shallow change.

 

[Kurt]

Anyway good. Playing zelda game with diff person is for spinoffs imo.

It's like playing next 3D mario main serie game without mario....

 

[truestatic]

Right, so... why can't the hero of The Legend of Zelda be a young woman for at least one game then?

Because Link is the protagonist of the Zelda games, and neither he nor his gender are disposable. They are part of the series. At least... until they're not. Circular fucking logic, I grant you, but all tradition is. Some people are just attached to that.

 

[Graphics Horse]

1) Take the current design of Link

2) Bump up his chest a little bit:

3) Change masculine grunts to feminine-ish grunts

4) Now all of a sudden, Link is a girl!

Seems very similar to swapping out a girl in a large suit to a boy in a large suit.


In the end, it seems like the only real change by making Link a girl is that he can't romance the resident princess of the day in the storyline, unless Nintendo wants to be socially progressive. ;-)

why are her breasts at armpit level anyway

 

[Log4Girlz]

Why would they immediately assume girls are weak because the hero of time is not one?

The same series that had clans of entire Gerudo female warriors, Impa, and Shiek. Important Sages that are female, etc.

The title hero of all fucking time has a certain weight to it. So why does destiny keep picking males? What does gender have to do with Links soul?

"And the powers that be decided to reincarnate Link, the hero of time, who must always have to have a penis and testicles or he couldn't be the hero of time, time and again to save the universe"

 

[SkeptiMism]

I don't understand why this debate about him being a girl even came up. He's always been a teenage pretty boy, I don't get what's so different about the new design.



I don't understand it either. I don't want Nintendo to give established characters that have been around for 25 years a sex change because that would be some pretty lame pandering. The Zelda canon is already all over the place, let's at least keep some continuity. It's like complaining that Mario is a guy, I don't get it.

There's this character called Princess Zelda, she's female and the series is named after her. She's been an archer and a mage throughout the series and would even allow for some new gameplay ideas because of that. Why not ask for her to be playable when you want to play as a female? Or ask for a new female character? Why does it have to be a sex change of an established character. If Link would be made a girl would those that asked for it complain if Zelda kept her gender?

Link being a female wouldn't change the canon at all. And it's not the same thing as changing Mario to a female at all either.

Again, Link is a different reincarnation every single time. There would be no sex change. It stands to reason that sometimes, he could be born as she.
Now, if you feel that Link should remain as male that's fine of course, but understand that people want different things.

 

[Ushojax]

My theory is that, as the Hero of Time, each incarnation of Link is actually the same character, who appears in different parts of different timelines when the Goddesses deem it to be necessary. That's why all Links have the same basic appearance, the same voice, and react to situations in the same way.

Doesn't Skyward Sword basically tell us that an incarnation of Hylia, Demise and the Hero will always exist along with the Triforce?

I would be fine with a female Link because it would just be another incarnation of the Hero.

 

[aly]

I'll preface with I love the Zelda series and I adore Links design.

So why is it a big deal that people would love a female lead even though Link has absolutely no personality? Sure the appearance is iconic but having a female lead for one game should not bother people this much. He's a self insert character.

And it is awful because people are getting defensive over one game having a change. So what if it's a female lead? you've got the countless of Zelda games with male Link and yet one with a female lead offends you? It's a speechless character.

I think people don't like change, even with the tiniest thing, and it isn't surprising at all nor awful. Like you said, the appearance is iconic and in some peoples minds male Link is Link and that entire look defines him. Any changes ,and I don't see why its unreasonable to just want them to define a new main character.

 

[Not]

Because Link is the protagonist of the Zelda games, and neither he nor his gender are disposable. They are part of the series. At least... until they're not. Circular fucking logic, I grant you, but all tradition is. Some people are just attached to that.

I guess my next question is why are people so attached to the gender of fictional characters?

 

[RMS Gigantic]

So then you admit your argument holds no water whatsoever, great.

Or feel free to explain how exactly his design is "vastly" more feminine than previous iterations.

To summarize:

• The character in the trailer has a waist is far narrower relative to the character's hips; the ratio between the two is smaller than on the Skyward Sword or Twilight Princess iterations of Link, and a small waist-to-hip ratio is characteristic of a female body form.
• Compared to the trailer's protagonist, Skyward Sword Link and Twilight Princess link have broader shoulders. Broad shoulders are a biological characteristic of males.
• The chin on the trailer character's face seemingly comes to a point, whereas SS Link and TP Link both have flatter chins. A physiological difference between men and women is that women generally have rounder faces.
• Similarly, the trailer's character has higher cheek bones compared to the SS and TP iterations of Link. Cheek bones are a difference that men and women have on a skeletal level.
• From what can be seen of the trailer character's legs, it appears to me as though more muscle is on the rear side of the femur than on the front, the opposite of TP and SS Links and suggesting that the former is biologically female whereas the latter two are biologically male.
• The trailer character has noticeably taller legs compared to the torso than SS or TP Link. This is typically (though not always) a trait of women compared to men.

Regardless of fashion sense or culture, these factors don't change and are nowhere near as subjective as ponytails or long hair.

 

[Wazzy]

I can't believe people are trying to act like Link being a guy is so important to his character. The only game that gave Link some form of a personality was SS which is the one game that made sense for him to be male.

Everything else he's been speechless with no personality. Him being a woman in ONE game should not bother people this much.

 

[Wolfe]

Yeah there is, which is why I didn't say anything about any consequences for you, or that anything should happen to you. You just acted like you weren't doing anything wrong, and I showed you that the point of NeoGAF is to avoid the trolling that goes on in other forums.

And you've done it several times and when someone else called you out on it to stop, you doubled down and said you're doing it for the chuckles.

My advice is move on, if it's an issue PM someone about it but to keep commenting on it might be considered derailment (I understand where you're coming from but it's not worth the effort imo).

 

[daffy]

I'll preface with I love the Zelda series and I adore Links design.

So why is it a big deal that people would love a female lead even though Link has absolutely no personality? Sure the appearance is iconic but having a female lead for one game should not bother people this much. He's a self insert character.

And it is awful because people are getting defensive over one game having a change. So what if it's a female lead? you've got the countless of Zelda games with male Link and yet one with a female lead offends you? It's a speechless character.

Characters are more than the words that come out of their mouth. Have you ever seen a silent film? Would you say those aren't true characters because they don't speak?

I wouldn't mind a female link but denying that Link has gained value over the years by having an iterative design is a little far fetched. He's more than his speech.

 

[Zeyphersan]

I'm actually disappointed...

 

[Madness]

Want to point out for everyone reading that that's definitely not the case for everyone. Google "representation matters."

Yeah it does. Which is why I'm all for the increased representation of women in gaming, along with diversity and multiculturalism. I'm saying that I don't need established characters changed to "feel represented".

Need to give women and girls a chance to feel better represented in the game. There is a woman named Zelda. The series is actually named for her. She also has a different established form in which she becomes a warrior named Sheik. They can easily make a game starring her, in a time Link isn't born yet and evil comes, or could have it set during the years Link was in the temple of time in Ocarina etc.

So yes representation matters, it's why were getting more diversity in games, why many games like Mass Effect allow us to choose gender, ethnicity etc. What we don't need is changing established characters with over 25+ years of history for a vocal minority.

 

[SomeRandomWeirdGuy]

So what I'm getting here is....,

"But he's a guy to ME!"

Link (in both lore and gameplay) is a speechless character, that just so happens to be represented by a male figure whose iteration with each installment has been closer to androgynous each time. What difference would it really make to have Link as a female in terms of lore and/or gameplay?

He's a guy to me and countless others.

Link has dialogue options in several games, and showcases character through body language in just about all of the 3D games.

If it makes no difference then why can't he stay male? That's how he's always been, and I've never seen massive complaints about it before this e3. Why can't a character just stay the way they are, and different character be used or a new character created to suit differing needs?

 

[SkeptiMism]

The reincernation background storyelement is pointless if we talking about character recognizability. There is a reason why all the reincernations look like, well, Link.

You seem to be dodging my questions every time or answering them only partly. Why would Link to have change looks? He already looks like he'd pass being a female pretty much. She would still be Link and her being a female wouldn't change any of that.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

why is he trolling so hard?

 

[UrbanRats]

However, he doesn't want players to focus too much on Link's appearance in the trailer.
"I don't want people to get hung up on the way Link looks because ultimately Link represents the player in the game," he said.

"I don't want to define him so much that it becomes limiting to the players. I want players to focus on other parts of the trailer and not specifically on the character because the character Link represents, again, the player."

More reason to give people choice in what the main character looks like? I don't get his reasoning.
This isn't an FPS where you don't even see the character, either.

 

[Ushojax]

To summarize:

• The character in the trailer has a waist is far narrower relative to the character's hips; the ratio between the two is smaller than on the Skyward Sword or Twilight Princess iterations of Link, and a small waist-to-hip ratio is characteristic of a female body form.
• Compared to the trailer's protagonist, Skyward Sword Link and Twilight Princess link have broader shoulders. Broad shoulders are a biological characteristic of males.
• The chin on the trailer character's face seemingly comes to a point, whereas SS Link and TP Link both have flatter chins. A physiological difference between men and women is that women generally have rounder faces.
• Similarly, the trailer's character has higher cheek bones compared to the SS and TP iterations of Link. Cheek bones are a difference that men and women have on a skeletal level.
• From what can be seen of the trailer character's legs, it appears to me as though more muscle is on the rear side of the femur than on the front, the opposite of TP and SS Links and suggesting that the former is biologically female whereas the latter two are biologically male.
• The trailer character has noticeably taller legs compared to the torso than SS or TP Link. This is typically (though not always) a trait of women compared to men.

Regardless of fashion sense or culture, these factors don't change and are nowhere near as subjective as ponytails or long hair.

I think you care a bit too much.

Link in this new game is a slightly more slender young man than normal. You don't need to start analysing the muscle mass around his femur.

 

[Not]

What I don't get is there was a point in the last twenty-four hours where Link could have been either male or female, and still had the same appearance either way. It's not about the "appearance" of an iconic character. You guys were concerned solely about actual gender, and don't skirt around that.

 

[Wazzy]

I think people don't like change, even with the tiniest thing, and it isn't surprising at all nor awful. Like you said, the appearance is iconic and in some peoples minds male Link is Link and that entire look defines him. Any changes ,and I don't see why its unreasonable to just want them to define a new main character.

But why should we care if people don't like change? If we did, the video game industry wouldn't have more women. minorities and LGBT characters that they do now. Obviously things still need to be improved on but these steps are taken when we allow change.

And this character still looks similar to Link that it being a girl really shouldn't bother people as much is it is. It's weird that people would get defensive over a speechless character. I've grown up on the Zelda franchise, I've always loved Links design but I can totally see a female lead in the series because Link being male or female has no bearing on the storyline.

 

[Galactic Fork]

The references to personality were more in line with the whole Doctor/Bond arguement. And I honestly don't think the studios behind Bond really buy the whole "it's the same guy!" conceit. Skyfall set up events that, if you were to understand the intention - could be viewed as a prequel. Despite taking place decades in the future, after the films it would theoretically precede. In reality, I just don't think the creators of Bond care as much about continuity as people think they do.

You missed the point. They are different imaginings of James Bond. I didn't mean all the movies are in line with each other. But they are all James Bond... Just James Bond. The Links are all individuals from the same world. Born at different times and timelines. They are independent from each other. Linked (ha) only by the fact that they are the current hero. Link is only a default name.

I guess I just don't really buy the whole "projection of the player" arguement (even if it's coming straight from the man's mouth). If Link's appearance & persoanlity is meant to mirror the player, why hasn't he been visually customizable - ever? If I am Link, why not offer those character creation options since the SNES era? Link is a known character - he's not the protagonist from Pokemon.

I'm not the one who said "I don't want people to get hung up on the way Link looks because ultimately Link represents the player in the game"

 

[RMS Gigantic]

why are her breasts at armpit level anyway

That's not even armpit level, depending on what you define to be "level". If natural breasts are at armpit level, those photoshopped lumps are at shoulder level.

 

[Graphics Horse]

To summarize:

• The character in the trailer has a waist is far narrower relative to the character's hips; the ratio between the two is smaller than on the Skyward Sword or Twilight Princess iterations of Link, and a small waist-to-hip ratio is characteristic of a female body form.
• Compared to the trailer's protagonist, Skyward Sword Link and Twilight Princess link have broader shoulders. Broad shoulders are a biological characteristic of males.
• From what can be seen of the trailer character's legs, it appears to me as though more muscle is on the rear side of the femur than on the front, the opposite of TP and SS Links and suggesting that the former is biologically female whereas the latter two are biologically male.
• The trailer character has noticeably taller legs compared to the torso than SS or TP Link. This is typically (though not always) a trait of women compared to men.

It will be interesting to see how much this will hold up when we get more art not in a twisted torso, jumping stance with bent legs, or riding a horse. I'm guessing it won't at all.

That's not even armpit level, depending on what you define to be "level". If natural breasts are at armpit level, those photoshopped lumps are at shoulder level.

I mean the nippley part

 

[Log4Girlz]

"Link, this is god, I'm reincarnating you and your genitals to fight evil once again. You are not you without the ol family jewels. If I were to accidently bring you back with a vagina, then all is lost"

 

[Apple of Enlightenment]

It's pretty clear: "I don't want people to get hung up on the way Link looks because ultimately Link represents the player in the game," he said.

"I don't want to define him so much that it becomes limiting to the players. I want players to focus on other parts of the trailer and not specifically on the character because the character Link represents, again, the player."

It's pretty clear, not clear. Especially when you factor in Japanese to English translation. In Japan, as far as I remember, the word for he and she is the same in most contexts.

 

[Carcetti]

More reason to give people choice in what the main character looks like? I don't get his reasoning.
This isn't an FPS where you don't even see the character, either.

Yeah, it's bizarro logic. The character is the ultimate representation of the player so the player cannot choose how the character looks. What?

 

[boi]

What if Link was a girl all along?????

 

[truestatic]

I guess my next question is why are people so attached to the gender of fictional characters?

Because gender isn't irrelevant. Isn't the fact that you're invested in Link, or some other female character getting a crack at bat in the Zelda franchise proof of that?. Link is an extremely popular character, and to me at least, his gender is part of his identity.

 

[Wazzy]

Characters are more than the words that come out of their mouth. Have you ever seen a silent film? Would you say those aren't true characters because they don't speak?

I wouldn't mind a female link but denying that Link has gained value over the years by having an iterative design is a little far fetched. He's more than his speech.

You can have silent characters who still have personalities. Link is not one of them. The only game I will agree he was expressive and showed some form of personality was SS thus I can easily see why he was male.

 

[SomeRandomWeirdGuy]

My theory is that, as the Hero of Time, each incarnation of Link is actually the same character, who appears in different parts of different timelines when the Goddesses deem it to be necessary. That's why all Links have the same basic appearance, the same voice, and react to situations in the same way.

It's pretty explicitly stated in Wind Waker that he's not a reincarnation of the previous hero, and has no relation. Whereas TP Link is without a doubt the descendant of OoT Link

One nitpick (to several people in the thread), the Hero of Time didn't come first, and that's never been Link's de facto title. He doesn't have one, he's just Link. As for your theory, it'd be more accurate to use "Hero of Skyloft" or something like that considering he was the first hero

 

[activatethesmile]

Girls, the hero of time is always male. Girls are weak, im so sorry.

This is like saying that since Link is always a white, Caucasian looking guy then Nintendo is making a statement that black men can't be a hero.

You're just being bloody silly and making ruckus out of thin air.

"Link, this is god, I'm reincarnating you and your genitals to fight evil once again. You are not you without the ol family jewels. If I were to accidently bring you back with a vagina, then all is lost"

And this is even stupider/sillier.

 

[AlphaDragoon]

Everything else he's been speechless with no personality. Him being a woman in ONE game should not bother people this much.

To be fair, him NOT being female shouldn't bother people this much either. Especially since he's always been a male in the past. Honestly looking through the thread the people pushing for female Link have been far more aggressive and antagonistic than the people that seem happy to have classic male Link.

 

[FunBoy]

"What if Zelda was a girl?" springs to mind.

 

[A-V-B]

"Link, this is god, I'm reincarnating you and you're genitals to fight evil once again. You are not you without the ol family jewels. If I were to accidently bring you back with a vagina, then all is lost"

Then God got drunk.

"Uh... whoops. Guess I better make another one."

Cue Legend of Zelda: A Tale of Two Links

 

[co1onel]

You can have silent characters who still have personalities. Link is not one of them. The only game I will agree he was expressive and showed some form of personality was SS thus I can easily see why he was male.

Idk, he was pretty expressive in WW

 

[Wolfe]

To summarize:

• The character in the trailer has a waist is far narrower relative to the character's hips; the ratio between the two is smaller than on the Skyward Sword or Twilight Princess iterations of Link, and a small waist-to-hip ratio is characteristic of a female body form.
• Compared to the trailer's protagonist, Skyward Sword Link and Twilight Princess link have broader shoulders. Broad shoulders are a biological characteristic of males.
• The chin on the trailer character's face seemingly comes to a point, whereas SS Link and TP Link both have flatter chins. A physiological difference between men and women is that women generally have rounder faces.
• Similarly, the trailer's character has higher cheek bones compared to the SS and TP iterations of Link. Cheek bones are a difference that men and women have on a skeletal level.
• From what can be seen of the trailer character's legs, it appears to me as though more muscle is on the rear side of the femur than on the front, the opposite of TP and SS Links and suggesting that the former is biologically female whereas the latter two are biologically male.
• The trailer character has noticeably taller legs compared to the torso than SS or TP Link. This is typically (though not always) a trait of women compared to men.

Regardless of fashion sense or culture, these factors don't change and are nowhere near as subjective as ponytails or long hair.

Ok I see where you're coming from and I apologize because this is going to come off as rude but dude, from that little snip of the trailer you've concluded all of this? I mean maybe you're completely on the mark but to me it just seems like you're reaching.

I'll drop it, we'll agree to disagree. I respect your opinion though so don't think I'm trying to sound like an ass on purpose or anything

 

[MoogleWizard]

Link being a female wouldn't change the canon at all. And it's not the same thing as changing Mario to a female at all either.

Again, Link is a different reincarnation every single time. There would be no sex change. It stands to reason that sometimes, he could be born as she.
Now, if you feel that Link should remain as male that's fine of course, but understand that people want different things.

May I ask why it's not the same thing as making Mario female? He's a recognizable, established character, it's the same thing. Zelda is a different reincarnation every single time, the reincarnation of the same character, which happens to be female. I don't see complaints about her not changing gender. I would actually love to save a kidnapped prince as a female pc in a game, that would be refreshing and awesome. Yet I don't complain about this game not being Zelda, because the characters in that universe are already established.

 

[Ushojax]

It's pretty explicitly stated in Wind Waker that he's not a reincarnation of the previous hero, and has no relation. Whereas TP Link is without a doubt the descendant of OoT Link.

That's not really true though is it. WW Link might not be a genuine ancestor of OOT Link, but he is the reincarnation of the hero. Just like Tetra is the latest reincarnation of Hylia/Zelda and Ganon is a reincarnation of Demise.