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[zeldablue]

Because if you do, you're a pig-headed, misogynistic, chauvinist, sexist, piece of garbage! You anti-woman anti-feminist woman-hater!

I just think it's ironic -- all the people clamoring for female leads didn't go out and buy Remember Me or Tomb Raider in droves, two games with bad-ass women as the main characters.

...both of those games seem to be about shooting dudes or beating up dudes. Everything else in those games looked like an after thought. That's not appealing to me. Having a girl in the game doesn't change who the game was made for. It's all about the gameplay.

Zelda isn't about that. Even though Link's not a chick, the gameplay offers more than repetitive masculine, over-violent gameplay. Zelda has more to do with curiosity and...explorative thinking. Which makes it a more inclusive game in my eyes.

 

[royalan]

I just have to sigh here. He didn't say you couldn't have a female that fits into that lineup. Preferring a male character is not the same thing as attacking the idea of a female character. Link has always been male, and some people identify with that. It's incredibly hypocritical to want a female character and still condemn someone who prefers male.

For the purposes of this particular argument whether or not I want a female Link doesn't matter. People are free to want what they want. I'm just arguing against the idea that Link can't and/or should never be female for BS reasons like "what about the good ol days?" or "he's always been male" or "women can't hold shields."

If you want Link to be a guy because that's a huge part of what he is to you, fine. But that argument's not strong enough to justify talking down to or dismissing people who dared to consider the idea that Link could ever be a girl because, guess what? It's possible.

Then it's pointless for you to argue for a female Link, when a unisex Link can have everyone covered. And it's the latter I have seen so far in Zelda Wii U.

It's an interesting viewpoint, I'll admit. But if Nintendo wouldn't be willing to make a female character, I don't see them having the stomach to deal with all the complications a unisex character would present.

 

[NEO0MJ]

A lot of people seem to be forgetting that even though Nintendo likes to say that Link is a reflection of the player they don't treat him as such.

 

[MannyToons]

They always talk about how Link is supposed to be a projection of yourself into the game, I don't see why they can't just make a male and female character and you choose at the start of the game.

This I agree with strongly. Link should have been a male and female character from the beginning. There should be a female option.

 

[royalan]

This I agree with strongly. Link should have been a male and female character from the beginning. There should be a female option.

Don't you realize? Everyone should be able to project themselves on a white male character. They are the default, after all.

 

[RMS Gigantic]

I'd actually like to see a poll on gaf to see if it's 50-50 like you suggest

It would have needed to be done back before Aonuma (seemingly) stated the gender outright.





As for the comments about keeping the gender vague, that is indeed part of one of the aims of "third wave feminism": make biological gender a non-issue.

 

[Tetranet]

A lot of people seem to be forgetting that even though Nintendo likes to say that Link is a reflection of the player they don't treat him as such.

Can you argue for that using Zelda Wii U's Link?

 

[defferoo]

This I agree with strongly. Link should have been a male and female character from the beginning. There should be a female option.

yes, that should have been the case, but let's recall that the first game came out in the 80s. at the time it was progressive to even have a female main character (see Metroid), let alone let someone choose their gender.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Can you argue for that using Zelda Wii U's Link?

How do you mean?

 

[Tetranet]

How do you mean?

Zelda Wii U's Link hasn't provided any indication so far as being male nor of being female. People say they can't decide what Link is. Aonuma said that Link is... Link, that link represents the player, reflects them.

There's no visibly male or female characteristics that could exclude anyone. This new Link could be either depending on how you view the design.

That doesn't seem like not treating Link as a reflection.

 

[t-storm]

this whole thing was ridiculous to begin with. some people secretly hoped that Link would be female, they saw the trailer, convinced themselves that the character was androgynous enough to be female (he was clearly Link in my mind, and male), started theorizing that the character was female, making up reasons why it would be sexist if the character was not female. Aonuma says no, the character is Link and is male, at which point people start to complain about Link not being female.

First of all, you all were the ones who convinced yourselves that the character was female. The fact that Link is male should be no surprise to you given the series' history of 25 years. Therefore, you should not be complaining that Link is male, like he is in every other Zelda game. You wouldn't just change Mario or Captain Falcon to a female would you? just like you wouldn't change Samus to a male. This is why I think Link should stay a male character. He is an icon of gaming, like Zelda is. That said, I would be delighted if Nintendo made a Zelda game where Zelda is the protagonist and fights to save Hyrule, nothing wrong with that, but Link is Link, let's keep it that way.

Bless your soul.

 

[Uno Venova]

I just really want regular old Link. Why is that a bad thing?

I definitely have noticed the differences in responses to people who want a female character to identify with and the people who just want it to stay a male character for tradition and identification.

 

[NEO0MJ]

That doesn't seem like not treating Link as a reflection.

I meant for the company itself. I mean if you want to imagine Link as female sure but Nintendo will always treat Link as an established character, even though each incarnation is slightly different. So a major change such as gender will never happen. At least, I don't see it happening with the current people in charge.

 

[skull kid]

Zelda isn't about that. Even though Link's not a chick, the gameplay offers more than repetitive masculine, over-violent gameplay. Zelda has more to do with curiosity and...explorative thinking. Which makes it a more inclusive game in my eyes.

I think you've got it wrong, Zelda is all about destroying people's property and stealing chickens or small pigs

 

[Cipherr]

A lot of people seem to be forgetting that even though Nintendo likes to say that Link is a reflection of the player they don't treat him as such.

I think everyone that has thought about this understands this. Push them for more female protagonists in new games, but this one isn't going to change, nor does it have to.

This I agree with strongly. Link should have been a male and female character from the beginning. There should be a female option.

Theres always possibilities, but its not going to happen here. Im all for pushing for more female protags, but people like yourself are going to have to accept the fact that not every game ever from here on out is going to include some sort of character creator or choice of sex.

Period.

It seems that some people are taking that pretty hard, which is surprising and unfortunate, but thats the truth. Not all games will, or HAVE to present that choice, period. And there is nothing wrong with a game designer deciding on a sex for a protagonist and shipping it as such. Repeat that over and over to yourself. Its okay that Lara Croft is a Female and Link is a male, and its also okay that neither game is designed to allow you to change that.

It in no way makes the designers bigots, irrational or Men/Women haters. Its one thing to push for progress on this, its another to be over the top and ridiculous. Lets keep it classy.

All we really have here is the internet going crazy after taking a joke the wrong way.

Don't you realize? Everyone should be able to project themselves on a white male character. They are the default, after all.

Nonsense like this doesn't help, if you have something to actually say, say it.

 

[Tetranet]

I meant for the company itself. I mean if you want to imagine Link as female sure but Nintendo will always treat Link as an established character, even though each incarnation is slightly different. So a major change such as gender will never happen. At least, I don't see it happening with the current people in charge.

I get what you mean, but the point I was trying to make is that the Wii U Link can be seen as either by people, or imagined as you put it. Aonuma making this design choice leads me to believe that they are going for a more unisex look and in the end, a unisex identity. The design changing and them being vague (so far Aonuma has been vague) is all that's needed for that. Only a "him" is seen in his statement, but considering the content of what he's saying and the design, it is very likely this is a translation issue considering the Japanese language doesn't use pronouns in the same way as English (let alone sex-specific pronouns).

And that's what has happened so far! EDIT: As I read it, but I provide arguments for that.

I've written a lengthier post on this too.

 

[royalan]

Nonsense like this doesn't help, if you have something to actually say, say it.

Where have you been? I've been saying it across a dozen pages at this point.

It seems that some people are taking that pretty hard, which is surprising and unfortunate, but thats the truth. Not all games will, or HAVE to present that choice, period. And there is nothing wrong with a game designer deciding on a sex for a protagonist and shipping it as such. Repeat that over and over to yourself. Its okay that Lara Croft is a Female and Link is a male, and its also okay that neither game is designed to allow you to change that.

You're being pretty disingenuous to suggest that these two examples are at all the same thing.

 

[Cipherr]

For the purposes of this particular argument whether or not I want a female Link doesn't matter. People are free to want what they want. I'm just arguing against the idea that Link can't and/or should never be female for BS reasons like "what about the good ol days?" or "he's always been male" or "women can't hold shields."

I think that may be why you are so upset about something so benign. Noone is telling you Link can't or should never be female for 'insert reason here such as "has always been"'.

They are saying Link WON'T be female because of "'insert reason here such as "had always been"'.

Maybe once everyone clears that hurdle of misunderstanding the back and forth can simmer down a bit; because outside of that, its just a bunch of people with personal preferences for certain game types/designs.

You're being pretty disingenuous to suggest that these two examples are at all the same thing.

Those two games, examples or whatever you want to call them don't need to be the same thing, the same genre, or even be within the same entertainment industry to serve as an accurate backdrop to the point of that quote you snipped from that post. In the entertainment industry there will be products that will have predetermined protagonists, from aliens to men women and children, and not all of them will include a character creator for you to mold the protag in your image or to your preference. And there is nothing wrong with that.

The push for more female leads is necessary, but that particular expectation (outlined in the previous sentence) is not reasonable, and borders on the ridiculous, especially if its painted as a bad thing when a protag is designed in a way you disagree with, so you attack it, or claim it was created with malice in mind. Stop poisoning what is a good movement in gaming by tossing in that sort of nonsense.

 

[MannyToons]

Don't you realize? Everyone should be able to project themselves on a white male character. They are the default, after all.

Oh of course, what was I thinking.

 

[MCtalkfunny]

Just going to pop in here and say that I love the idea of having a male and female option of Link. I've never even thought of it before but it makes a lot of sense and would be amazing if it happened. I would still almost always choose male Link because I want to have that link to Link, hahah, but it would be in the spirt of the character to have a option for both boys and girls. Imagine a girl Link jumping up and stabing Ganon in the head. Just the thought makes me smile.

 

[royalan]

I think that may be why you are so upset about something so benign. Noone is telling you Link can't or should never be female for 'insert reason here such as "has always been"'.

They are saying Link WON'T be female because of "'insert reason here such as "had always been"'.

Maybe once everyone clears that hurdle of misunderstanding the back and forth can simmer down a bit; because outside of that, its just a bunch of people with personal preferences for certain game types/designs.

And you would know that...how, exactly? Nobody knows what Nintendo might do in the future.

My point, my only point, is that female Link does not disrupt the lore. Having a female Link is possible without changing anything about the lore or or Hyrule's mythos as we've come to understand it.

Outside of that, my personal preferences have nothing to do with it.

Those two games, examples or whatever you want to call them don't need to be the same thing, the same genre, or even be within the same entertainment industry to serve as an accurate backdrop to the point of that quote you snipped from that post. In the entertainment industry there will be products that will have predetermined protagonists, from aliens to men women and children, and not all of them will include a character creator for you to mold the protag in your image or to your preference. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Missed the point.

You could not make Lara Croft male, because Lara Croft is a specific person. She is the same person in every game in which she appears. Making her male one game would make not a bit of sense.

Link is an avatar. A person of no real value or importance to Hyrule until he becomes the Hero. The Hero is not the same person in every Zelda game. The Hero dies and is reborn multiple times throughout the history of Hyrule. The only important trait Link must have, as stipulated by the lore, is the spirit of The Hero. Theoretically, you could make one of the iterations of The Hero female, and it wouldn't alter the lore.

That is the big difference between those two examples.

 

[Cipherr]

And you would know that...how, exactly? Nobody knows what Nintendo might do in the future.

The same way I know that Nintendo wont be releasing a bunch of flagship games on smartphones I would assume. Ask the people making that statement, but its based on company history and the answers to questions they have been asked. At this point in time with a company like Nintendo, the better bet is that Link will remain male, much more than it is that Link will get and option to be female. If you have information that shows reason to bet otherwise feel free to offer it. But at the moment your 'possible future scenario' has absolutely nothing going for it other than "but no one can read the future!"

My point, my only point, is that female Link does not disrupt the lore.

Spectacular. Glad you got that out. I merely found this:

Don't you realize? Everyone should be able to project themselves on a white male character. They are the default, after all.

To be a rather incredibly poor way to communicate that point is all.

Missed the point.

No you are confused, YOU missed the point of that quote. Im the one who typed it. It makes perfect sense, you on the other hand looked to find a way to make me say something I didn't in order to start a discussion about whether or not Link and Lara are the same person missing the actual point of the statement. Those characters importance, number of births and lore are completely unimportant to the point being made that certain pieces of entertainment will always have preset protags that the content consumer doesn't get to modify for many reasons; and that these cases are not at attack on the continued increase, and calls for more variation, minority and female representation in this mediums/industries.

 

[royalan]

To be a rather incredibly poor way to communicate that point is all.

Well tough titty, It's how a lot of people feel about Aonuma's reasoning here.

They'd be better off just saying that they have a specific vision for Link and that's just the end of it. Hell, them coming out and just saying that would end a lot of debates. But in 2014 with all the technology we have saying that you're sticking to a white male character because it represents the player just doesn't make a lot of sense, and infuriates some people because it inadvertently demonstrates how out-of-touch with your player-base you are.

No you are confused, YOU missed the point of that quote. Im the one who typed it. It makes perfect sense, you on the other hand looked to find a way to make me say something I didn't in order to start a discussion about whether or not Link and Lara are the same person missing the actual point of the statement. Those characters importance, number of births an lore are completely unimportant to the point being made that certain pieces of entertainment will always have preset protags that the content consumer doesn't get to modify for many reasons.

And what does that have to do with anything? You're arguing a completely different point. Whether or not the player should have the right to modify the character they're playing as has absolutely no bearing on what NIntendo themselves could decide to do.

 

[Deitus]

Well tough titty, It's how a lot of people feel about Aonuma's reasoning here.

They'd be better off just saying that they have a specific vision for Link and that's just the end of it. Hell, them coming out and just saying that would end a lot of debates. But in 2014 with all the technology we have saying that you're sticking to a white male character because it represents the player just doesn't make a lot of sense, and infuriates some people because it inadvertently demonstrates how out-of-touch with your player-base you are.

He didn't say Link is a male because it represents the player. He said Link's appearance isn't important because he represents the player. That's a hugely different thing.

 

[Cipherr]

And what does that have to do with anything? You're arguing a completely different point.

No, I'm arguing a very straightforward point, it just has nothing to do with what you said because you didn't seem to notice that the original statement wasn't a reply to you, but someone else. Scroll up. I was talking to Manny to merely illustrate that not having a male/female option from the very first Zelda like he stated, isn't an attack on the movement to get more female and minority protags in game. Maybe he already feels that way, maybe not, but I was talking to him.

That really explains why you managed to take it so far out of context at least. I don't mind you commenting on it, but at least take the time to read it.

But in 2014 with all the technology we have saying that you're sticking to a white male character because it represents the player just doesn't make a lot of sense

Can you point out the part where Aonuma specifically states that he did not change Link to a Female solely because it represents the player? Because from what I read Aonuma was commenting on people thinking it wasn't Link, and only briefly touched on it being an unknown Female or a Female link. I never read that he said "We are keeping Link male because it represents the player". I only read that he said he cleared the rumor up to keep people from focusing to much on the character at all because the character is the player.

Thats a very very very different statement you are pointing out there. If I missed a video or something show me.

 

[Koodo]

But in context of the world and the mythos Nintendo themselves have laid down, Link's identity is not established. He's different every time. Nothing more than a vessel for the spirit of the hero. He could theoretically be ANYONE.

Mhm.

And that puts Nintendo in the perfect position to switch the gender of the character without betraying the mythos of the series (in the hypothetical scenario where the mythos of Zelda are worth protecting, anyway).

A female lead would have been such a bold, strong indicator of a conviction to move in a completely new direction for a series that has grown absolutely geriatric. And it would be an unprecedented decision not just in gaming, but across all forms of media. A decision like this would be sheer pop culture that Zelda has failed to attain since the days of Wind Waker.

 

[royalan]

Mhm.

And that puts Nintendo in the perfect position to switch the gender of the character without betraying the mythos of the series (in the hypothetical scenario where the mythos of Zelda are worth protecting, anyway).

A female lead would have been such a bold, strong indicator of a conviction to move in a completely new direction for a series that has grown absolutely geriatric. And it would be an unprecedented decision not just in gaming, but across all forms of media. A decision like this would be sheer pop culture that Zelda has failed to attain since the days of Wind Waker.

Perfectly stated, sis.

He didn't say Link is a male because it represents the player. He said Link's appearance isn't important because he represents the player. That's a hugely different thing.

The difference is largely semantics. The result is largely the same. The argument given for not changing anything about Link's physical representation is that he is supposed to represent the player. It's the same thing in the end.

 

[bomma_man]

Given how obviously the new game is influenced by Miyazaki it's almost a shame that they didn't go the whole hog and jack one of his strong female characters.

 

[Deitus]

The difference is largely semantics.

If by semantics you mean not putting words in people's mouths, sure.

The result is largely the same. The argument given for not changing anything about Link's physical representation is that he is supposed to represent the player. It's the same thing in the end.

How can you claim that they didn't change anything about Link's physical representation, when not long ago you were insistent that he looked female, and that he had previously looked undeniably male? Clearly they have changed Link's appearance.

So I don't get how in light of that, you read his response to be "males only".

 

[t-storm]

Well tough titty, It's how a lot of people feel about Aonuma's reasoning here.

Um no? It seems to be a very vocal and annoying minority. Read the thread, posters who have girl friends who play the series are even against the idea of Link being female.

 

[Cipherr]

The difference is largely semantics. The result is largely the same. The argument given for not changing anything about Link's physical representation is that he is supposed to represent the player. It's the same thing in the end.

Im sorry but no its not. The quote as I read it is a man saying that he cleared up the rumor about who that was in the trailer so that the focus of the trailer didn't hinge on the character because the character isn't all that important, its meant to represent the player.

Thats TOTALLY different than someone asking: "Hey, why didnt you change Link to a female" And him answering "Because Link needs to be a little white boy to represent the people playing this game"

There is a massive gulf there, and I refuse to believe you don't see it. He was never asked why Link wasn't changed to a girl as far as I can see.... never asked. He stated Link was a representation of the player unsolicited and it had nothing to do with what you are saying here... If it were, and if he had honestly implied what you are saying he did, I would be right there with you, because that would be hilariously stupid. Especially from the same company that just had that issue with Tomodachi.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

I was very intrigued by the possibility that the new hero was a girl, and I am admittedly disappointed that it isn't, but I was hoping for this person to be a new character, not just a female Link. That feels cheap and gimmicky to me.

It's certainly understandable if people want to be able to choose the sex of the hero, but then you would be left with the same problems Animal Crossing has, which excludes everyone not fair skinned. Zelda would have to go with a complete character creation mechanic, which is fine with me. I'm sure you could select the "Standard Link" default, but if you want, you can personalize the look however you want. When you think about it, it's strange Nintendo doesn't do this since they continue to push Miis so hard.

 

[Dice//]

Im sorry but no its not. The quote as I read it is a man saying that he cleared up the rumor about who that was in the trailer so that the focus of the trailer didn't hinge on the character because the character isn't all that important, its meant to represent the player.

Thats TOTALLY different than someone asking: "Hey, why didnt you change Link to a female" And him answering "Because Link needs to be a little white boy to represent the people playing this game"

There is a massive gulf there, and I refuse to believe you don't see it. He was never asked why Link wasn't changed to a girl as far as I can see.... never asked. He stated Link was a representation of the player unsolicited and it had nothing to do with what you are saying here... If it were, and if he had honestly implied what you are saying he did, I would be right there with you, because that would be hilariously stupid. Especially from the same company that just had that issue with Tomodachi.

How is Link representing me as a female player? Last I remember half the freaking cast of Ocarina of Time gives him "do me eyes" at some point (as I, at the same time, rolled my own mine).

I feel like saying that Link is supposed to "represent the player" a big misnomer then when it really, really matters to people that he stays a fella.

For brand purposes, I think it would be best they make Zelda less useless and playable* than give us the option to change Link... for one, I think that decision would provide less fandom headaches than the alternative of a Fem-Link.

*

Spoiler

Yes, more than in Spirit Tracks... a roll that anyone could have similarly fulfilled as Casper the Friendly Ghost. And more than in non-canon titles like Smash Bros and Hyrule Warriors... Shit, i think her magic-oriented attacks would make a great adjunct to a somewhat stale series

 

[Jigolo]

After all the female speculation I think they are going to make Link a bit more masculine before the game ships lol

 

[rex]

Link is an avatar. A person of no real value or importance to Hyrule until he becomes the Hero. The Hero is not the same person in every Zelda game. The Hero dies and is reborn multiple times throughout the history of Hyrule. The only important trait Link must have, as stipulated by the lore, is the spirit of The Hero. Theoretically, you could make one of the iterations of The Hero female, and it wouldn't alter the lore.

This argument is putting way too much stock in the extremely thin storytelling of the Zelda franchise, which is ironic because the whole reincarnation thing is nothing but a byproduct of Nintendo's aversion to story. They don't want to bother connecting the stories from game to game, so they hit upon the 100 years in the future/past thing to get around it. The multiple Links are completely practical. There's no larger purpose to them than that. The Hero thing is part of that invention. From a real world standpoint, the 'Hero' exists only to get the character universally recognized as Link into another Legend of Zelda game.

Nintendo never even toys around with the idea that anyone could be the hero. It simply doesn't factor into their storytelling. Four of five 3D Zeldas have taken place in separate universes. There were never any red herrings about who the hero was. It was Link because Link is the character we've been playing as for 25 years.

I think there's something to the avatar thing, but people have taken it way past what Nintendo probably intended, and to the point where they actually deny Link is a character. If Link weren't a character, he wouldn't be starring in his own spin-off game right now, which was made solely because he and the Zelda brand are recognizable. If Link weren't a character, he wouldn't be featured prominently on the covers of both Smash Bros. It's mind boggling to me that people are arguing this. No Nintendo character would qualify as one if they had to show us who they really were on the inside, but apparently that's the standard the Link character is being held to.

There's no solid basis to be found in the Zelda storyline for changing Link's gender. It's nothing but a flimsy loophole people are trying to exploit to shoehorn their own preferred vision into a series that's been around forever. They want to shove aside an iconic character as if the character has no value to anyone at all, whether it be Nintendo and the money they plan to make off of this simple 'avatar', or the fans who've grown attached to him. I don't get it.

 

[Mango The Magician]

This argument is putting way too much stock in the extremely thin storytelling of the Zelda franchise, which is ironic because the whole reincarnation thing is nothing but a byproduct of Nintendo's aversion to story. They don't want to bother connecting the stories from game to game, so they hit upon the 100 years in the future/past thing to get around it. The multiple Links are completely practical. There's no larger purpose to them than that. The Hero thing is part of that invention. From a real world standpoint, the 'Hero' exists only to get the character universally recognized as Link into another Legend of Zelda game.

Nintendo never even toys around with the idea that anyone could be the hero. It simply doesn't factor into their storytelling. Four of five 3D Zeldas have taken place in separate universes. There were never any red herrings about who the hero was. It was Link because Link is the character we've been playing as for 25 years.

I think there's something to the avatar thing, but people have taken it way past what Nintendo probably intended, and to the point where they actually deny Link is a character. If Link weren't a character, he wouldn't be starring in his own spin-off game right now, which was made solely because he and the Zelda brand are recognizable. If Link weren't a character, he wouldn't be featured prominently on the covers of both Smash Bros. It's mind boggling to me that people are arguing this. No Nintendo character would qualify as one if they had to show us who they really were on the inside, but apparently that's the standard the Link character is being held to.

There's no solid basis to be found in the Zelda storyline for changing Link's gender. It's nothing but a flimsy loophole people are trying to exploit to shoehorn their own preferred vision into a series that's been around forever. They want to shove aside an iconic character as if the character has no value to anyone at all, whether it be Nintendo and the money they plan to make off of this simple 'avatar', or the fans who've grown attached to him. I don't get it.

I'm glad so many people agree that Link is indeed a character, because Link being a character is why I don't want customization as I fear it'd move him away from that. Also I agree with everything else.

 

[Dice//]

After all the female speculation I think they are going to make Link a bit more masculine before the game ships lol

F*** it. Why not? It's easy enough to add large breasts on female design, I want bigger muscles!

...Unless they're really going for him looking like a 14 year old here.

 

[royalan]

Thats TOTALLY different than someone asking: "Hey, why didnt you change Link to a female" And him answering "Because Link needs to be a little white boy to represent the people playing this game"

...how, exactly? How is the end result of these two statements any different? Do you think people were expecting Aonuma to come out and say "We want to keep Link a white male and that's why we aren't changing him!"? Nobody was expecting him to actually say that, because the end result is largely the same. You have a mythos where your main character could literally be anyone without largely disturbing the lore, but you choose to keep him physically the same...even though you decided to make it that he's technically a completely different person each time. Well sure, go ahead, but saying that this is done because Link represents the player and so his appearance "shouldn't matter" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The issue with unequal representation in media isn't always one of a majority group intentionally keeping a minority demographic from being fairly represented. Sometimes it's just a matter of people not wanting to alter the status quo...for any reason.

This argument is putting way too much stock in the extremely thin storytelling of the Zelda franchise, which is ironic because the whole reincarnation thing is nothing but a byproduct of Nintendo's aversion to story. They don't want to bother connecting the stories from game to game, so they hit upon the 100 years in the future/past thing to get around it. The multiple Links are completely practical. There's no larger purpose to them than that. The Hero thing is part of that invention. From a real world standpoint, the 'Hero' exists only to get the character universally recognized as Link into another Legend of Zelda game.

Nintendo never even toys around with the idea that anyone could be the hero. It simply doesn't factor into their storytelling. Four of five 3D Zeldas have taken place in separate universes. There were never any red herrings about who the hero was. It was Link because Link is the character we've been playing as for 25 years.

I think there's something to the avatar thing, but people have taken it way past what Nintendo probably intended, and to the point where they actually deny Link is a character. If Link weren't a character, he wouldn't be starring in his own spin-off game right now, which was made solely because he and the Zelda brand are recognizable. If Link weren't a character, he wouldn't be featured prominently on the covers of both Smash Bros. It's mind boggling to me that people are arguing this. No Nintendo character would qualify as one if they had to show us who they really were on the inside, but apparently that's the standard the Link character is being held to.

There's no solid basis to be found in the Zelda storyline for changing Link's gender. It's nothing but a flimsy loophole people are trying to exploit to shoehorn their own preferred vision into a series that's been around forever. They want to shove aside an iconic character as if the character has no value to anyone at all, whether it be Nintendo and the money they plan to make off of this simple 'avatar', or the fans who've grown attached to him. I don't get it.

Funny thing is, I agree with you.

Personally, I don't think Nintendo actually gave a shit about the timeline or the mythos of the series until around WW when the fans started pestering them hardcore about it. But the thing is, we can't have our cake and eat it, too. Regardless of what I (and you) believe, Nintendo insists there's a mythos and intent behind the Zelda franchise. So we either take them at their word (in which case, there is room in the mythos for a female Link), or we throw it out for the sake of argument...in which case there's room for a female Link.

 

[Cipherr]

...how, exactly? How is the end result of these two statements any different?

The end result isn't different. The end result is that Link will remain as link likely has for a long time. But that fact is not an attack on me, you, or the movement to get more female protagonists in games. Its just the choice made by the designers with zero malice intended. You cannot approach any situation where you personally think that a change in gender or race is possible, and paint the creators as malicious to this cause if they decide against making that change. Thats absolutely stupid, and it makes people pushing for these reforms look insane.

Do you think people were expecting Aonuma to come out and say "We want to keep Link a white male and that's why we aren't changing him!"?

No. And do you know why I didn't expect that? Because no one in that entire interview ever asked Aonuma why Link was a male, nor did anyone in that interview ever ask Aonuma why he did not change Link to a female, nor why Link was a Male in the first place.

You are flying off of the rails here. You want his response to a completely different inquiry to be the answer to a question that was NEVER ASKED. I don't know how to engage this discussion with you until you commit to putting an end to that.

 

[Dice//]

I like the idea of Link having a sister again (hell, a family in general which was almost what made Wind Waker weird at first and vague/mysterious/annoying that he had an Uncle in AlttP). And I'd love to see something like that.

Or of course, playable Zelda (which, c'mon, is that REALLY a lot to ask for?)

I can deal with the idea that there is this characterization of Link. But I think it sucks they keep insisting he's an "avatar of the player". I really don't think many feel that's the case.

 

[rex]

Funny thing is, I agree with you.

Personally, I don't think Nintendo actually gave a shit about the timeline or the mythos of the series until around WW when the fans started pestering them hardcore about it. But the thing is, we can't have our cake and eat it, too. Regardless of what I (and you) believe, Nintendo insists there's a mythos and intent behind the Zelda franchise. So we either take them at their word (in which case, there is room in the mythos for a female Link), or we throw it out for the sake of argument...in which case there's room for a female Link.

I just can't take that aspect of the story line seriously because of why they did it. And even if Nintendo were sincere about it, I'd still view the Link character as a more necessary and authentic part of the Zelda games, especially since he predated the hero story lines.

 

[Deitus]

...how, exactly? How is the end result of these two statements any different?

Because intent matters. It might not matter for solving the problem of representation, but it matters for why a creator would choose to make a product in the way they made it.

If someone chooses to write a character that is the same race and gender that they are, because they are drawing from their own personal experiences growing up, that is a vastly different reason than because they don't care about women or other ethnicities. Now their reasoning might not be good enough for you, but if you misrepresent their rationale, it only does disservice to your argument.

The issue with unequal representation in media isn't always one of a majority group intentionally keeping a minority demographic from being fairly represented. Sometimes it's just a matter of people not wanting to alter the status quo...for any reason.

Agreed that representation will not get better if white males continue to write about white males (to the exclusion of everyone else). And there should be pressure on creators to go outside their comfort zone and represent people who are not like them. But that's hugely different from making strawman arguments to misrepresent people. If you disagree with Aonuma's position, then feel free to argue it, but don't fabricate an imaginary argument to tear down.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Oh well. I still very much like the redesign though. About time they changed his look from the boy in green. Would be cool if they include a green tunic though. Dont wanna alienate the fans.

 

[royalan]

The end result isn't different. The end result is that Link will remain as link likely has for a long time. But that fact is not an attack on me, you, or the movement to get more female protagonists in games. Its just the choice made by the designers with zero malice intended. You cannot approach any situation where you personally think that a change in gender or race is possible, and paint the creators as malicious to this cause if they decide against making that change. Thats absolutely stupid, and it makes people pushing for these reforms look insane.

You're the only one arguing malicious intent. I already addressed this in my last post:

The issue with unequal representation in media isn't always one of a majority group intentionally keeping a minority demographic from being fairly represented. Sometimes it's just a matter of people not wanting to alter the status quo...for any reason.

You are flying off of the rails here. You want his response to a completely different inquiry to be the answer to a question that was NEVER ASKED. I don't know how to engage this discussion with you until you commit to putting an end to that.

Does someone actually have to ask that specific question when Aonuma pretty much already answers it? That character we saw in the trailer is Link, and Aonuma doesn't want the player to get too concerned about appearance because Link represents the player. He doesn't need to be asked the question if the answer wouldn't matter to the end result. You seem to be under the impression that I'm looking for evidence of malicious intent, and in the absence of that I'm just making shit up. But my opinion doesn't require that Aonuma be intentionally and maliciously keeping Link a white male (when the lore leaves plenty of room to make Link almost anything else) to keep minorities underrepresented in his games. Regardless of the intent, the end result is the same.

 

[Galactic Fork]

The end result isn't different. The end result is that Link will remain as link likely has for a long time. But that fact is not an attack on me, you, or the movement to get more female protagonists in games. Its just the choice made by the designers with zero malice intended. You cannot approach any situation where you personally think that a change in gender or race is possible, and paint the creators as malicious to this cause if they decide against making that change. Thats absolutely stupid, and it makes people pushing for these reforms look insane.

It's not a matter of maliciousness. It's possible to do horrible things with no malice intended. So please stop stop stop basing it all on whether someone is twirling their mustache. (I'm not saying anything done today is horrible, just that stop determining good or bad with malicious intent).

The mindset isn't an attack on the movement to get more female protagonists... It's why we need a movement to get more female protagonists.
The idea that the light skinned male is the default. It's the problem. The mindset that when appearance doesn't matter and it's just supposed to be the player, to create a light skinned male. And yes, that applies to Japanese companies, in this global market.
The Legend of Zelda was created about 30 years ago, and even back then they just wanted a default to represent the player. Well it's 30 years later, maybe when you're still saying appearance doesn't matter, and it's just supposed to represent the player, you stop doing what's always been done and recognize there are other players to represent.

 

[wishdom]

I don't think we'll ever see a female Link, since Link is a male name after all.

Spoiler

/s

Although that doesn't mean we won't see a female Hero in TLOZ.
It all comes down to: "will a female protagonist sell more copies of the game over a male protagonist?".

Or they could give us the option and make everyone happy.

 

[GuessMyUserName]

Yes. Aonuma, the man who took his wife's last name, is a huge sexist.

Woah I never knew this, pretty interesting.

 

[Dice//]

Oh well. I still very much like the redesign though. About time they changed his look from the boy in green. Would be cool if they include a green tunic though. Dont wanna alienate the fans.

Now now...Hold yer horses. Link's worn all sorts of colours and outfits over the years. I don't think we're seeing a new era of BLUE LINK.

 

[zeldablue]

The Miyazaki is strong in this game. And Miyazaki is extremely good at not belittling female characters and instead giving them real depth with no weird pandering nonsense.

If this is indeed an influence than I can't wait to see the stern industrialist lady attack the natural forest god and wolf princess (Zelda) in this newest entry.

Woah I never knew this, pretty interesting.

That's normal in Japan. Aonuma is taking the role of son/man/leader of his wife's family. I...think.

 

[ramyeon]

That's normal in Japan. Aonuma is taking the role of son/man/leader of his wife's family. I...think.

Not really, no. It's much more common for the bride to take on the groom's family's name. It's quite literally the opposite of what you said. Generally speaking in Confucian societies women leave their family and join the husband's family when they marry, this is part of the reason why traditionally sons have been more important/valued in Confucian societies than daughters (First sons are traditionally expected to stick around and support the parents in their old age, it is not uncommon for the aged parents to live with their first son and his family).

There certainly are cases where Japanese husbands take their wife's family name, for example if that family has no sons and their own has another (This may or may not be the case for Aonuma, I know next to nothing about his personal life), but I wouldn't say it's the norm. It's only recently (1940s I believe) that there was even a choice, before that taking the husband's name was obligatory.

From my knowledge of the subject I would say taking the wife's family name in Japan is leaning towards more progressive.