Support NeoGAF

[ElectricKaibutsu]

What does CC Link mean?

And why is he comparing it to gay marriage?

I have a feeling I'm supposed to be laughing at this statement, but I need to understand it first.

Character Customization

 

[Altered Juice]

To me, people being against CC Link is like people being against Gay marriage ...

OH MY GOODNESS! dafuq is this shit?????

 

[activatethesmile]

Hmm? You have to be some homophobic bigot to not agree with gay marriage? I have had talks with people I know don't have anything against gay people who ask me about gay marriage. I say " I couldn't care less, not affecting me or hurting anyone to allow 2 people of the same gender to get married" and they ultimately just come to a "IDK ... :-/ " when I flip it back at em.

Course there are some who ARE raging hateful people but I wouldn't group everyone in as that.

Just to make it CLEAR ..
The way some people defend "no CC" is similar to how people are against gay marriage in that you're basically against someone experiencing something differently than you that in no way effects you.

"Yay, I can play as blond hair blue eyes Elf dude/ shack up with someone of a different gender! Wait, you can be a DIFFERENT looking model in YOUR game?!?/ you can shack up with someone NOT of the opposite gender?!?! This somehow hurts my experience of this game!/ marriage!"

Comes across like you think someone's harming your experience when you could easily just play default Link and nothing changes for you.

I read all of those above and my reactions can be best described as simply thus: rolling my eyes.

 

[royalan]

Pokemon and Zelda are inherently different games that aren't even in the same genre, this is the same as saying, "I can change the appearance of Commander Shepard, why not Master Chief," Pokemon is an RPG that's always meant to be "your journey," Zelda is an action adventure game with a set protagonist who has a written back story and history. Also Pokemon was always meant to let you choose gender, they just ran out of time in the first game.

Not quite.

The concept of "The Hero" has a written back story and history. But Link himself does not. Each Link contributes a part to the whole, but there's no unified history or calling between all of the Links. Hell, most of them have mysterious, untraceable lineages. The Links don't share memories, most don't even have knowledge of the existence of their predecessors. The individual Links literally do not matter until they embody The Hero. They're blank slates.The only thing they share is what they actually go on to do: save Hyrule.

 

[zeldablue]

"ultimately Link represents the player in the game" if you wanna argue with that then IDK what to say.
That is an avatar. I mean, there IS a reason people talk about "Female Link/ CC Link" and not "Female Mario/ CC Samus".

And ... at that bolded. This is a visual medium so I'm not exactly sure why one should HAVE to imagine when "ultimately Link represents the player in the game" and we have the tech to make that happen.

GameFreak wised up to this and stopped "making" people "imagine" this dude was a girl in the 2nd gen and in this latest gen did the same for more groups.



Hmm? You have to be some homophobic bigot to not agree with gay marriage? I have had talks with people I know don't have anything against gay people who ask me about gay marriage. I say " I couldn't care less, not affecting me or hurting anyone to allow 2 people of the same gender to get married" and they ultimately just come to a "IDK ... :-/ " when I flip it back at em.

Course there are some who ARE raging hateful people but I wouldn't group everyone in as that.

Just to make it CLEAR ..
The way some people defend "no CC" is similar to how people are against gay marriage in that you're basically against someone experiencing something differently than you that in no way effects you.

"Yay, I can play as blond hair blue eyes Elf dude/ shack up with someone of a different gender! Wait, you can be a DIFFERENT looking model in YOUR game?!?/ you can shack up with someone NOT of the opposite gender?!?! This somehow hurts my experience of this game!/ marriage!"

Comes across like you think someone's harming your experience when you could easily just play default Link and nothing changes for you.

It's more like it hurts the story-telling that fans are connected to. Compare character creation to a player select. On the player select there are 5 to 8 characters. Every character is distinct with their own story, gender, race, personality and body-type. They all have different names but you could rename them. They all "reincarnate" like Impa, Link, Tingle and Zelda often do. The only thing you couldn't do is change their physical appearance once they're selected.

You see how that is extremely more interesting than CC? I hate CC. I want them to make characters that I can fall in love with. I want to see their creativity...not my own. It would no longer feel real if I had to personally pick a nose for my character. Yes, I'm saying it wouldn't be special anymore if the game started off with something like a mii creation tool. I just want pre-defined characters or else I'm not into it. If you look around, none of us are against a new female character as the protagonist or an old female character being the lead. We just don't feel as though Link is a character who can be altered by the player in that way.

 

[Mango The Magician]

he's one hundred percent serious. And CC obviously means Credit Card.

Clearly you didn't get the memo, the definition of CC has been changed from "Credit Card" to "Caped Crusader" Link is actually training to become Batman in this new game, and that explains the fancy Battech he has on his arrows.

 

[……forgetit]

Not quite.

The concept of "The Hero" has a written back story and history. But Link himself does not. Each Link contributes a part to the whole, but there's no unified history or calling between all of the Links. Hell, most of them have mysterious, untraceable lineages. The Links don't share memories, most don't even have knowledge of the existence of their predecessors. The individual Links literally do not matter until they embody The Hero. They're blank slates.The only thing they share is what they actually go on to do: save Hyrule.

Maybe I should clarify, each specific Link has a set back story depending on the game, I was referring to the story of each individual game and the benefits of having a set protagonist over CC. Mainly being that each Link has his own character and experiences and his appearance/gender is referenced in the game.

 

[balgajo]

I think about Link as a mascot/iconic character with the characteristics below:

Blonde/Brown hair
White Skin
Male
Green Suit/Cap
Kid / Young adult
Cool look

Most of his characteristcs don't represent me as a person, but still, that's the way I recognise him.

I don't really care about the universe/timeline enough to elaborate my opinion based on them. It's a matter of appearance for me. I'm fine with the idea of people wanting a girl Link, I just don't want to play a Zelda game where it happens.

I want to have the right of not wanting to play a Zelda entry where Link doesn't follow the characteristics above. It already happened to me when they revealed Wind Waker's Link.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

To me, people being against CC Link is like people being against Gay marriage ...

 

[zeldablue]

Not quite.

The concept of "The Hero" has a written back story and history. But Link himself does not. Each Link contributes a part to the whole, but there's no unified history or calling between all of the Links. Hell, most of them have mysterious, untraceable lineages. The Links don't share memories, most don't even have knowledge of the existence of their predecessors. The individual Links literally do not matter until they embody The Hero. They're blank slates.The only thing they share is what they actually go on to do: save Hyrule.

Hero's Shade.

 

[Josh5890]

Well at least that rumor got squashed quickly.

 

[Kinsei]

Hero's Shade.

It's been a while since I've played TP, but I don;t remember him saying that every hero was male. He's just OoT link teaching his descendant (TP Link) some of the moves he learned before his death.

 

[royalan]

It's been a while since I've played TP, but I don;t remember him saying that every hero was male. He's just OoT link teaching his descendant (TP Link) some of the moves he learned before his death.

Also, is it ever actually confirmed that he is OoT Link?

I mean, I believe he is, but he's also the exception to my rule. Most of the acknowledgement that he's a previous hero is through player speculation. It isn't something that's actually acknowledged and explored in the game (to be fair, its been a while since I played TP, too).

 

[zeldablue]

It's been a while since I've played TP, but I don;t remember him saying that every hero was male. He's just OoT link teaching his descendant (TP Link) some of the moves he learned before his death.

He's also talking about his regrets and doing things that don't sound like an avatar. He seemed pretty defined to me. :/

More importantly he's a Link talking to another Link!

 

[Altered Juice]

Also, is it ever actually confirmed that he is OoT Link?

yes

 

[SenorArdilla]

yes

Hyrule Historia?

 

[GuessMyUserName]

Also, is it ever actually confirmed that he is OoT Link?

I mean, I believe he is, but he's also the exception to my rule. Most of the acknowledgement that he's a previous hero is through player speculation. It isn't something that's actually acknowledged and explored in the game (to be fair, its been a while since I played TP, too).

It's mentioned in Hyrule Historia... but...

"The ghost of the hero who teaches Link his secrets. Some theorize that the fact he holds his sword in his left hand indicates he is actually Link from Ocarina of Time."

... All that really makes it is an "officially acknowledged theory", neither confirmed nor denied. >_>

 

[zeldablue]

It's mentioned in Hyrule Historia... but...



... All that really makes it is an "officially acknowledged theory", neither confirmed nor denied. >_>

In the other section it just bluntly says "this is Link from OoT/MM."

 

[Green Mamba]

Yeah, the Hero's Shade is mentioned twice in the Hyrule Historia, and in one of those instances it says he's the Hero of Time quite plainly.

 

[Altered Juice]

Hyrule Historia?

yep.

"When Link first set foot in the Twilight, the crest of the Triforce of Courage shined on the back of his hand; when he returned to human-form he wore clothes the hero wore. Link is taught mysteries from the ghost of the hero of time. Since he returned to his childhood, he’d felt regret that he would leave his name as hero. Therefore, the “son” of Link speaks proof of the courage he inherited mysteriously."

 

[GuessMyUserName]

Other section?

... *grabs hard copy*


... I feel bad for not reading the whole thing.

*edit*

Ah, thanks Juice. Nice.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

There are a couple different debates going on here. I think what it boils down to is some people see Link as a character and some people are going by what Aonuma said and that he is simply an Avatar. Some fans disagree, where according to the lore he keeps being reborn, but some think that it's always as the same person. And I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Let's look at this:

Who is this?

That's Link from the Legend of Zelda.
Who is this?

That's Link from the Legend of Zelda
Who is this?

That's Link from the Legend of Zelda

To some fans Link is always the same guy, from his hair, to his eyes, to his clothes, all the way to his little blue earrings. To them, Link suddenly being reincarnated as a woman would be just as surprising as Samus getting doused with Phazon and suddenly becoming a man. I'm personally not a fan of a suddenly female Link, and that's not because I'm against playing as a woman. I just think it would be incredibly gimmicky. Link's a girl and yet she still has the same personality (as in courage, drive, and general sleepiness I guess), the same clothes (down to the earrings), and still saves the princess. What is the point of that? If you want to make a strong female lead in a Zelda game make it this Zelda:

Or, even better, make it a completely new character. Link and Zelda's daughter. Why not?

BUT
For the people who want Link to be a customizable character so Link can more closely represent them, sure why not? Why not make every character in every game customizable? I'm not being facetious. Look at Shepard from Mass Effect, that person could look however you wanted and yet you still got the default character on the boxart.

People who want Link to stay as boring ol' Link could still do that.

A little OT but can you imagine the outrage in the next Smash Bros if there is was a female Link? At the character select screen the announcer says: "Link!" "Toon Link!" "Girl Link!" I don't know what they could name a female Link and not have it sound insulting.

 

[Dead Man]

There are a couple different debates going on here. I think what it boils down to is some people see Link as a character and some people are going by what Aonuma said and that he is simply an Avatar. Some fans disagree, where according to the lore he keeps being reborn, but some think that it's always as the same person. And I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Let's look at this:

Who is this?

That's Link from the Legend of Zelda.
Who is this?

That's Link from the Legend of Zelda
Who is this?

That's Link from the Legend of Zelda

To some fans Link is always the same guy, from his hair, to his eyes, to his clothes, all the way to his little blue earrings. To them, Link suddenly being reincarnated as a woman would be just as surprising as Samus getting doused with Phazon and suddenly becoming a man. I'm personally not a fan of a suddenly female Link, and that's not because I'm against playing as a woman. I just think it would be incredibly gimmicky. Link's a girl and yet she still has the same personality (as in courage, drive, and general sleepiness I guess), the same clothes (down to the earrings), and still saves the princess. What is the point of that? If you want to make a strong female lead in a Zelda game make it this Zelda:

Or, even better, make it a completely new character. Link and Zelda's daughter. Why not?

BUT
For the people who want Link to be a customizable character so Link can more closely represent them, sure why not? Why not make every character in every game customizable? I'm not being facetious. Look at Shepard from Mass Effect, that person could look however you wanted and yet you still got the default character on the boxart.
http://masseffect.neoseeker.com/w/i/masseffect/thumb/e/e8/MassEffect.jpg/250px-MassEffect.jpg[IMG]
People who want Link to stay as boring ol' Link could still do that.

A little OT but can you imagine the outrage in the next Smash Bros if there is was a female Link? At the character select screen the announcer says: "Link!" "Toon Link!" "Girl Link!" I don't know what they could name a female Link and not have it sound insulting.[/QUOTE]

That's what kind of cracks me up about the hardcore anti character creator crowd. They can always just play as the default character. The only argument against it that I have seen that holds any weight is the dialogue being gender neutral. Which is really not some huge impossible obstacle if the devs allocate the time to record some lines twice.

 

[truestatic]

Link is as much of a "representative in Hyrule" as a Pokemon trainer is a "representative in [insert region]". You were never able to "transplant" an image onto a Pokemon Main Character until the games allowed it by being 3D.

And I'm not exactly sure how people can't get that connection I'm drawing with the marriage stuff. Wut, should I make it "people act like you letting your child wear [insert color] somehow harms THEIR child"???

Ultimately it's "your against something that in no way hurts you for no real reason".

Now you're reaching. Pokemon trainers are different kids every time. There is nothing that links

Spoiler

sorry

them together. They hold little visual consistency across games except art style. They are also not symbolic of their series. It's the pokemon that hold primacy in the pokemon games, not the trainers. Link, on the other hand, has remained visually consistent across almost thirty years of games. He is about as unchanged from his first appearance as Mario is. The 'multiple Links' thing is a pretext to keep playing the same story, and is even slightly undercut by the fact that now those Links have been made (mostly) into reincarnations of one dude. Link is a visually striking and immediately identifiable symbol of not just the series, but of Nintendo, and even games in general. The pokemon trainers are utterly disposable. Link has proven to be anything but.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

That's what kind of cracks me up about the hardcore anti character creator crowd. They can always just play as the default character. The only argument against it that I have seen that holds any weight is the dialogue being gender neutral. Which is really not some huge impossible obstacle if the devs allocate the time to record some lines twice.

Especially with Zelda which so far hasn't had voice acting. Did Mass Effect record the dialogue twice? Anyway, Skyrim doesn't have this problem.

 

[Kinsei]

After watching the Hyrule Warriors demo on the stream, if there is a Zelda game with a femal MC, I want it to be that specific Zelda. Damn she's awesome.

 

[zeldablue]

It's a bit of a western vs eastern rpg thing too. I forget where they talked about this but in Japanese games, the story starts very slow for the player as the main character is being established. In western games...your more likely to create your own character and go straight into the action. In western games you can change the story in anyway but in Japanese games your playing out the story to see the plot unfold. For some reason I very much prefer the Japanese style over the western way...but only to a certain extent.

Over the past few titles Link has gone from silent protagonist "avatar" to defined character who doesn't talk. The timeline started getting strange and Link more defined around Wind Waker. Before that Koizumi "hid" Links character into the side quests with LA, OoT and MM.

But even at that time, I felt like I came up with this entire scenario and a backstory for Link, but nobody really seemed to care.

So I would sort of try to find sneaky ways to get it in without them noticing too much. For example, I always liked the idea of you coming upon another character and hearing little bits of conversation that slowly begin to reveal different parts of the story. And that was the way that I tried to work on Ocarina of Time and Majora’s Mask. A lot of the EAD games that do seem to have a lot of story, a lot of that came from my influence. - Koizumi

By SS Link had nothing in common with me...and I kind of hated him. :/

I think Aonuma wants to go back to the 80s and 90s with the way Link works. I think he wants to go back and maybe look into how other games do this.

And I don't think he realized that the avatar situation would blow up because it was never an argument back then. (And still really isn't in Japan)

 

[Cipherr]

Im going to do this one last time then put you on ignore. Im sure you don't care, but man you have wrecked my opinion of you as a poster in this thread. Jesus Christ.

Is Aonuma/Nintendo wrong or eeeevvviiiillll for keeping Link male? Not at all. Aunoma has every right to make Link what he wants Link to be. However is their given reasoning a bit silly at this point? Yes. And, just for clarification, here's the quote I'm taking his reasoning from:

Look at the red text Roya, You know whats wrong with that statement? Aonuma never EVER assigned the statement you are using as the 'reasoning for Link remaining male"

Never.

It never happened Royalan! The man NEVER once said that Link representing the player was the REASON he isn't changed into a FEMALE!

He never EVER assigned a reason to the issue of Link not changing genders because no one ever asked him for one.

Jesus CHRIST.... This is why the entire following chain of logic you are implying is broken. You are having an argument based on a faulty foundation of assumptions, a question that was never answered, and emotion. You are very literally making that part up.

I really want to think you would read that and absorb it, but probably not. So whatever. But one last time.


"However is their given reasoning a bit silly at this point? Yes." <---- THIS! Never happened. It never happened. He never gave a reason for Link not being changed to a female.

 

[……forgetit]

That's what kind of cracks me up about the hardcore anti character creator crowd. They can always just play as the default character. The only argument against it that I have seen that holds any weight is the dialogue being gender neutral. Which is really not some huge impossible obstacle if the devs allocate the time to record some lines twice.

Not only the dialogue being gender neutral, the story absolutely suffers from having a created character opposed to a set character, not just from gender neutral pronouns, but also due to the disconnect between the main character and the characters around him/her, an example would be the way Groose reacts to Link in the beginning of Skyward Sword. He makes fun of his height, appearance, whatever ammo he happened to have. He continued to taunt Link in a unique way based on his design and gender, all because he's jealous of Link being so close to/dating Zelda, this entire exchange and opening couldn't have been done with a character creator. Mainly because Links appearance, characteristics, ad gender were all predetermined by the development team.

 

[Dead Man]

Not only the dialogue being gender neutral, the story absolutely suffers from having a created character opposed to a set character, not just from gender neutral pronouns, but also due to the disconnect between the main character and the characters around him/her, an example would be the way Groose reacts to Link in the beginning of Skyward Sword. He makes fun of his height, appearance, whatever ammo he happened to have. He continued to taunt Link in a unique way based on his design and gender, all because he's jealous of Link being so close to/dating Zelda, this entire exchange and opening couldn't have been done with a character creator. Mainly because Links appearance, characteristics, ad gender were all predetermined by the development team.

So you limit the height range of the character. :/ It's not that hard.

 

[zoukka]

Not quite.

The concept of "The Hero" has a written back story and history. But Link himself does not. Each Link contributes a part to the whole, but there's no unified history or calling between all of the Links. Hell, most of them have mysterious, untraceable lineages. The Links don't share memories, most don't even have knowledge of the existence of their predecessors. The individual Links literally do not matter until they embody The Hero. They're blank slates.The only thing they share is what they actually go on to do: save Hyrule.

They do share a lot of things. Race, looks, physique, sex and plenty of other genetic factors.

 

[Mango The Magician]

BUT
For the people who want Link to be a customizable character so Link can more closely represent them, sure why not? Why not make every character in every game customizable? I'm not being facetious. Look at Shepard from Mass Effect, that person could look however you wanted and yet you still got the default character on the boxart.
People who want Link to stay as boring ol' Link could still do that.

Not to selective quote, but I'm only ok with CC Link if there's a confirmed (in-game) canonical Link, as in the one Nintendo made. Literally a message has to pop up saying this isn't canonical when you go to remake Link. Also there needs to be a way so that CC doesn't mess with Link's presence in the story.

 

[Cipherr]

Not to selective quote, but I'm only ok with CC Link if there's a confirmed (in-game) canonical Link, as in the one Nintendo made. Literally a message has to pop up saying this isn't canonical when you go to remake Link. Also there needs to be a way so that CC doesn't mess with Link's presence in the story.

This isn't hard to do, almost every CC game has a starting default of some sort outside of perhaps MMO's. It would take nearly nothing from the game at all, noone would care really; I just disagree with the idea that if they don't add it, its some major slight or an instance of wrong doing. Just because it would fit in the universe doesn't mean a design team is thereby obligated to make the game as such. Thats a horribly slippery slope. I would rather they make more new IP's with female protags and do more with Zelda than 'save me Link'. That shits tired.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

That's what kind of cracks me up about the hardcore anti character creator crowd. They can always just play as the default character. The only argument against it that I have seen that holds any weight is the dialogue being gender neutral. Which is really not some huge impossible obstacle if the devs allocate the time to record some lines twice.

The difference is people are connected to the story, history and lore of the franchise. Link is a mascot and an icon of the franchise. Its like being angry that Disney won't change Donald Duck into a Penguin because then he wouldnt be Donald Duck. I have no qualms playing as a gay black female in the Zelda franchise but make her another character, not Link. I dont hear people asking for a female Mario, Black Peach or CC avatars in Mario games who have a lack of personality or deep story because it wouldnt be a Mario title.

 

[……forgetit]

So you limit the height range of the character. :/ It's not that hard.

There are more issues than that -_- it's called an example. Zelda, as a series so far, is written with a very specific character in mind, a character that acts a certain way, looks a certain way, and has a certain gender, writing for a blank slate genderless character where you could literally have thousands of different combinations limits writing and hurts story telling. Adding CC would not increase the possibilities for story telling, it would only limit them more.

 

[balgajo]

Not only the dialogue being gender neutral, the story absolutely suffers from having a created character opposed to a set character, not just from gender neutral pronouns, but also due to the disconnect between the main character and the characters around him/her, an example would be the way Groose reacts to Link in the beginning of Skyward Sword. He makes fun of his height, appearance, whatever ammo he happened to have. He continued to taunt Link in a unique way based on his design and gender, all because he's jealous of Link being so close to/dating Zelda, this entire exchange and opening couldn't have been done with a character creator. Mainly because Links appearance, characteristics, ad gender were all predetermined by the development team.

It would really limit how the game would react to your appearance.
Thinking of creating a very ugly Link on purpose and some NPC still calling him a handsome man.
I really don't want it to become The Legend of Scrolls, even though I like Elder's Scroll series.

 

[truestatic]

There are more issues than that -_- it's called an example. Zelda, as a series so far, is written with a very specific character in mind, a character that acts a certain way, looks a certain way, and has a certain gender, writing for a blank slate genderless character where you could literally have thousands of different combinations limits writing and hurts story telling. Adding CC would not increase the possibilities for story telling, it would only limit them more.

It's not as huge an obstacle as you make it sound. Characters in Zelda games reacting to Link's physical appearance is hardly a pillar of the series. I challenge you to count five occasions of this that would be broken across ALL Zelda games. If they wanted to make character customization, this sort of humour would be a small sacrifice to make. And what's more, character creation is not likely to allow you to create a protagonst so radically different from what we get now that the denizens of Hyrule wouldn't treat you the same way. And if it DOES allow for really bizarre renditions of Link, and someone attempts to create the most outlandish version of Link the game allows them to, they can break the game if they really want to. It's not that different from naming your horse 'my ass.' If someone wants to do that, who cares?

 

[stufte]

There are more issues than that -_- it's called an example. Zelda, as a series so far, is written with a very specific character in mind, a character that acts a certain way, looks a certain way, and has a certain gender, writing for a blank slate genderless character where you could literally have thousands of different combinations limits writing and hurts story telling. Adding CC would not increase the possibilities for story telling, it would only limit them more.

This and I want a character that is hand-crafted for the game and story. Not some generic (and no matter how hard you try, you can't create anything iconic with a CC... ever.) character that is just dull and uninspired because it has to be everything for everyone all at once. I don't want a character to look like me. I want to be someone else, with a interesting story made just for them. I want to escape into their lives, not inject myself into the game.

I play most every game I can get my hands on, female lead, black lead, whatever. As long as that character is in a game that is fun and compelling to play.

 

[Dead Man]

This and I want a character that is hand-crafted for the game and story. Not some generic (and no matter how hard you try, you can't create anything iconic with a CC... ever.) character that is just dull and uninspired because it has to be everything for everyone all at once. I don't want a character to look like me. I want to be someone else, with a interesting story made just for them. I want to escape into their lives, not inject myself into the game.

I play most every game I can get my hands on, female lead, black lead, whatever. As long as that character is in a game that is fun and compelling to play.

That is a personal preference, and one I respect, but it doesn't mean the writing will be objectively worse.

The difference is people are connected to the story, history and lore of the franchise. Link is a mascot and an icon of the franchise. Its like being angry that Disney won't change Donald Duck into a Penguin because then he wouldnt be Donald Duck. I have no qualms playing as a gay black female in the Zelda franchise but make her another character, not Link. I dont hear people asking for a female Mario, Black Peach or CC avatars in Mario games who have a lack of personality or deep story because it wouldnt be a Mario title.

There are more issues than that -_- it's called an example. Zelda, as a series so far, is written with a very specific character in mind, a character that acts a certain way, looks a certain way, and has a certain gender, writing for a blank slate genderless character where you could literally have thousands of different combinations limits writing and hurts story telling. Adding CC would not increase the possibilities for story telling, it would only limit them more.

Well we will have to agree to disagree then.

 

[royalan]

Im going to do this one last time then put you on ignore. Im sure you don't care, but man you have wrecked my opinion of you as a poster in this thread. Jesus Christ.



Look at the red text Roya, You know whats wrong with that statement? Aonuma never EVER assigned the statement you are using as the 'reasoning for Link remaining male"

NEVER

it NEVER HAPPENED ROYALAN! The man NEVER once said that Link representing the player was the REASON he isn't changed into a FEMALE!

NEVER. He never EVER assigned a reason to the issue of Link not changing genders because NO ONE EVER ASKED HIM FOR ONE!

Jesus CHRIST.... This is why the entire following chain of logic you are implying is broken. You are having an argument based on a faulty foundation of assumptions, a question that was never answered, and emotion. You are very literally making that part up.

I really want to think you would read that and absorb it, but probably not. So whatever. But one last time.


"However is their given reasoning a bit silly at this point? Yes." <---- THIS! Never happened. It never happened. He never gave a reason for Link not being changed to a female.

When you're getting this upset, it's time to stop posting.

You're also completely neglecting that I've responded to this already. You're more than welcome to disagree with my point, but please, you might want to stop banging your head against a desk as though I haven't addressed this point at all.

But here, I'll do it again. I'll even bold it for you this time:

When the reality of the Zelda series is that Link is always, always depicted as a white male despite the fact that the lore has made room for Link to be depicted as anything else, the creators do not need to explicitly state what their reasoning is for this. The result is the same, regardless.

Aonuma does not have to come out and explicitly state that THIS is the reason Link is not made female. Finding out WHY Link isn't made, specifically, female is unimportant because there are TWO things we can logically glean from Aunoma's statements:

1) Nintendo views the appearance of Link as unimportant because, to them, Link merely represents the player.

2) Link has thus far ALWAYS been depicted as a white male, despite the fact that the story doesn't require it.

Aonuma's statements can be taken as reasoning for why Link isn't depicted as ANYTHING else (a female or a goddamn Goron for all I care). Saying Link's appearance doesn't matter because he "represents the player" but giving him such a specific character design is silly in 2014. And frankly, expecting Nintendo to get more specific at this point is just as silly. It's all there unless you've purposely got your damn eyes closed.

They do share a lot of things. Race, looks, physique, sex and plenty of other genetic factors.

But not a back story and history, which was the point I was responding to.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Agreed, that was never my intent, but agreed anyway as long as you recognize that keeping Link male is not a horrible or bad thing. My issue from the start of this has been the demonization of any content creator that may make a game with a non minority or male protagonist as being against the improvement of female and minority representation in games. Thats a ridiculous assumption. Naughtydog does not have to change Drake into a Black male just because I would love if more games represented my culture in gaming. And if they were asked to change his race and declined to, I would rightfully not be offended.

I do not think it's a horrible thing, but I do think it's a bad thing when coupled with quotes like: "Certainly, as part of a series, maybe people will think it&#8217;s the same main character but, ultimately, it's the player character. It's the person with the controller in their hands, if that makes sense."
"I don't want people to get hung up on the way Link looks because ultimately Link represents the player in the game,"

This says HE doesn't see link as anything other than the player, it's just a default.
He is the one saying Link is just a representative of the player. That's why Link's gender and tone was chosen in the first place. And it continues this way. You may think of Link as a character, but he disagrees. And if Link is supposed to be just a representative, then a choice would be the way to go.

We wont ever get progress on these things if we let excitement and extremism get the best of us. The idea of modifying what is considered 'default' is IMO however much better served when looking at new IP and new character introductions in existing franchises. Getting uppity about them not making Drake black might be a bit over the top, but it wouldnt be unreasonable to expect them to add some variety in the supporting cast of their future games in that IP in order to help progress variation and inclusion in the industry.

But when one of the game's producers states the character is supposed to be not much more than a blank slate to project yourself onto, then why not expect that? Especially when the story makes room for it.

 

[……forgetit]

It's not as huge an obstacle as you make it sound. Characters in Zelda games reacting to Link's physical appearance is hardly a pillar of the series. I challenge you to count five occasions of this that would be broken across ALL Zelda games. If they wanted to make character customization, this sort of humour would be a small sacrifice to make. And what's more, character creation is not likely to allow you to create a protagonst so radically different from what we get now that the denizens of Hyrule wouldn't treat you the same way. And if it DOES allow for really bizarre renditions of Link, and someone attempts to create the most outlandish version of Link the game allows them to, they can break the game if they really want to. It's not that different from naming your horse 'my ass.' If someone wants to do that, who cares?

Yeah, I don't care enough about this argument to find five examples of that, though it does exist I'm sure. In the end it doesn't really matter because Nintendo will do what they want to do, and that is to make Link and androgynous blonde hair blue eyed elf boy between the ages of 12-19. The root of the argument as stated earlier is if you see Link as a character or as an avatar, I personally see him as a separate character who has his own quirks and charms., these change between games of course, and you see him as an avatar for the player, something that, though Nintendo has repeated as being true, they have only gone further and further in the opposite direction, and just continue in making Link his own character. We just have to agree to disagree on how we see the character I guess.

 

[Mik317]

Jesus this thread has gone places....


as for the whole CC debate.

I am a hypocrite as I love character creation in games. That feature is what made Dragon's Dogma one of my favorite games ever. I am looking forward to creating a character in XBX...

and yet..I am not sure I want it in Zelda. Yeah I could leave Link as default but then I feel like I am limiting myself a bit by not fully using the feature. Also while I think Link is generally character-less enough to change..I do think he has enough character that a character creation tool would "hinder" that too much for me. The afforementioned Dragon's Dogma has a god awful plot so having a main lead who blankly stares into the abyss during important moments didnt matter much..

It's really weird.

I think it just works in some games better than others.

 

[HolyBaikal]

It looked like Link to me from the beginning and I was actually a little surprised that it might not be him.

He also didn't look that much more feminine that usual. So I was surprised that people were making such a deal of it. Plenty of male characters in video games are that feminine. And he didn't look that feminine or much more feminine than in Skyward Sword.

People were also saying some stuff about anatomy that were kinda not true.

But I have always wanted to play a Legend of Zelda game as a female character. Whether it's a female Link, Princess Zelda, or Aryll. So the idea kind of makes me feel happy and excited and I hope it happens in the future.
Oh hey, this is actually the same thread as the one the discussion happened it, they just changed the name of it. I didn't realize that.

 

[Cipherr]

That's why Link's gender and tone was chosen in the first place. And it continues this way. You may think of Link as a character, but he disagrees. And if Link is supposed to be just a representative, then a choice would be the way to go.

I disagree, and I think you have a broken understanding of the history of the franchise also. Aonuma did not create Link. The character in the 'first place' had nothing to do with Aonumas visions or ideas last I checked. He was brought into the team to work on OOT by Miyamoto IIRC. So Aonuma doesn't get a say in the character roots of Link. This is why most of us don't attribute much weight to a lot of the stuff he says concerning the original vision of the character. Link was a "character" long before Aonuma ever had anything to do with Zelda. There were cereals and TV shows with Link in them before Aonuma got near Link as far as I know.

This much is just a fact.

But when one of the game's producers states the character is supposed to be not much more than a blank slate to project yourself onto, then why not expect that? Especially when the story makes room for it.

First of all because he isn't even the creator of the character, he inherited the series. And second because even if a designer wants you to feel a part of the character you play, they are not in any way reasonably required to include a CC or a gender option. This is just the reality of things. Im sure most character driven games want the person to connect with the protag they play but its not always going to happen.

When your criteria for considering something a terrible thing is "But I think they could pull that off without damaging the IP/Sales/Story" then you have very seriously messed up. What you are describing is a system where nearly 100% of games would have CC. Thats never ever ever going to happen, and Im sorry but its not a reasonable request either, even if the story makes room for it.

I wouldn't mind a CC in the game, but that doesn't mean it HAS to be done or the designers are making some offensive choice here.

He also didn't look that much more feminine that usual. So I was surprised that people were making such a deal of it. Plenty of male characters in video games are that feminine. And he didn't look that feminine or much more feminine than in Skyward Sword.

I kid you not, it started because someone who probably hadn't seen a Link character in a while noted that he was Androgynous looking (its not a first), and some other GAFFER made a photoshopped Link with boobs.

It took off into the stratosphere from there. Just a honest joke by Aonuma ("I didn't say that was link!") and an honest photoshop by a Gaffer, and now we have this craziness.

 

[Black-Wind]

OH MY GOODNESS! dafuq is this shit?????

I read all of those above and my reactions can be best described as simply thus: rolling my eyes.

I looked at all of those above and my reactions can be best described as simply

Would like to know what you all think is the disconnect is but People seem to be content with acting as if "2 examples where you're upset about someone doing shit that doesn't affect you in anyway with no rational reason behind it" warrants shock and awe.

It literally has no more affect on you than Tommy on the other side of the planet making his "Link" be named "Dicks" or something to that effect.

But moving on ...

It's more like it hurts the story-telling that fans are connected to. Compare character creation to a player select. On the player select there are 5 to 8 characters. Every character is distinct with their own story, gender, race, personality and body-type. They all have different names but you could rename them. They all "reincarnate" like Impa, Link, Tingle and Zelda often do. The only thing you couldn't do is change their physical appearance once they're selected.

You see how that is extremely more interesting than CC?

Not really, no.
I have seen games do this before where the end result is shallow gameplay and story because instead of just making ONE story for one character you're trying to make 5 ... and 5 styles of play to warrant the 5 characters and 5 stories.

I think that hurts the story more than "lets tell one story for a character you had a hand in making the appearance for".

I hate CC. I want them to make characters that I can fall in love with. I want to see their creativity...not my own. It would no longer feel real if I had to personally pick a nose for my character. Yes, I'm saying it wouldn't be special anymore if the game started off with something like a mii creation tool. I just want pre-defined characters or else I'm not into it. If you look around, none of us are against a new female character as the protagonist or an old female character being the lead. We just don't feel as though Link is a character who can be altered by the player in that way.

Well for the bolded, it's good that you would get a default Link .. right?
That's why they have default/ official/ cannon characters (Like with Pokemon and ME and so on) with the option for CC. I surely don't think they would force you to make your character LOOK like Link ... they would just default to that.

And I'm addressing CC because really, by their own definition that's the most simple answer. Sure, would love to play as Zelda or Impa ... but that really doesn't address anything on the topic of "changing Link" which is kinda what this topic came from.

Pokemon and Zelda are inherently different games that aren't even in the same genre, this is the same as saying, "I can change the appearance of Commander Shepard, why not Master Chief," Pokemon is an RPG that's always meant to be "your journey," Zelda is an action adventure game with a set protagonist who has a written back story and history. Also Pokemon was always meant to let you choose gender, they just ran out of time in the first game.

They're not as different as you're putting on.
Each game you are a Mute Protag born with a different backstory to the last game's hero.

Each game you start from nothing and work your way up to being the hero who saves the world/ land (though your mission may be different from the last hero's).

You met people along the way who tell you about the lore and history or the current events that set your path in motion.

Both game's protags have lil in the way of personality other than general heroic stuff.

All these events from all these games take place in the same world.

Only real difference is that Link is reincarnated (meaning his lives take place between long spans of nothing most of the time) where as Pokemon Protags are kids stuck in different regions doing events years apart.

 

[sonikokaruto]

I love how this was just waiting to happen nd everyone jumped on this like free ice cream on a fitness center

 

[Galactic Fork]

I disagree, and I think you have a broken understanding of the history of the franchise also. Aonuma did not create Link. The character in the 'first place' had nothing to do with Aonumas visions or ideas last I checked. He was brought into the team to work on OOT by Miyamoto IIRC. So Aonuma doesn't get a say in the character roots of Link. This is why most of us don't attribute much weight to a lot of the stuff he says concerning the original vision of the character. Link was a character long before Aonuma ever had anything to do with Zelda.

This much is just a fact.
.

Did you play the original Legend of Zelda? There was no story, not much of anything. It was a little sprite who was sent off to to gather triangles in order to save the princess. Do you really think there was more thought into it than than you're going to play as the hero, and the hero is obviously male?

First of all because he isn't even the creator of the character, he inherited the series. And second because even if a designer wants you to feel a part of the character you play, they are not in any way reasonably required to include a CC or a gender option. This is just the reality of things. Im sure most character driven games want the person to connect with the protag they play but its not always going to happen.

When your criteria for considering something a terrible thing is "But I think they could pull that off without damaging the IP/Sales/Story" then you have very seriously messed up. What you are describing is a system where nearly 100% of games would have CC. Thats never ever ever going to happen, and Im sorry but its not a reasonable request either, even if the story makes room for it.

I wouldn't mind a CC in the game, but that doesn't mean it HAS to be done or the designers are making some offensive choice here.

I didn't say they are required. I didn't say they are terrible people for not doing it. I definitely didn't say it's a terrible thing because "But I think they could pull that off without damaging the IP/Sales/Story" I'm also not sure where you got the idea I was talking about character driven games.

I said it's a bad thing to say that the character isn't a character, it doesn't matter what the character looks like because it's just a representative of the player, and not offer some kind of choice.
It shows a bias of what is representative of players. It shows acceptance that the default is male. and I think that's a bad thing. I do not want to violently force him to do anything. I don't loathe him as a person. I just see he has some biases I don't like... Oh no! I have an lower opinion about a person! The drama!

Also please tell me how: "Certainly, as part of a series, maybe people will think it&#8217;s the same main character but, ultimately, it's the player character. It's the person with the controller in their hands, if that makes sense."

Translates to:

"designer wants you to feel a part of the character you play"

It literally has no more affect on you than Tommy on the other side of the planet making his "Link" be named "Dicks" or something to that effect.

I always name Link Zelda. I hope when you introduce yourself to Zelda, she'll notice... She never does.

 

[Vermillion]

Random note for the people who prefer to play as Zelda instead of female Link...

The Mary Sue believed it was Zelda in the trailer instead of Link. They're still disappointed, and whatnot of course.

 

[KungFucius]

were people really doubting this? I mean wtf is wrong with anyone who doubted this.