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[Karsticles]

Genuine question

Why does it matter whether a character is a hero or a villain? What does it change with regard to the gameplay?

Do you similarly bemoan the number of Street Fighter characters that don't have evil motivations?

I find aesthetics to be among the most important aspects of a fighting game roster, and whether most people realize it or not, that holds true for them as well. See: Pokken announcement vs. Tekken 7 announcement. Personally, I strongly prefer the aesthetic appeal of villains. Ganondorf, Mewtwo, Bowser, Ridley, Demise, and Hades are all characters I would love to play. The only newcomer I have interest in is Palutena. That is it. So, for me, few villains means weaker roster appeal.

Yes, 95% of the SFIV cast is uninteresting to me for this reason. I tried to like Oni, but he's so terrible I had to stop playing him. I main Blanka, who isn't evil, but is non-human, which generally appeals to me as well. In UMvC3, I main Firebrand/Dormammu/Shuma-Gorath, a team of 3 villains. The diversity of that cast offers me a lot of options, and I wish all fighting games had so many villainous options for people like me. I still don't play BlazBlue because it has one villain, and he is lame.

 

[RobFox64tm]

There were past rumor of characters getting cut, mainly from the Gematsu leak.
And we really don't know if it's the final roster but the All-Star mode being locked means there was till secret characters.
But if it's really a ESRB video then it's just multiple video together so that wouldn't mean anything.

Link?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I find aesthetics to be among the most important aspects of a fighting game roster, and whether most people realize it or not, that holds true for them as well. See: Pokken announcement vs. Tekken 7 announcement. Personally, I strongly prefer the aesthetic appeal of villains. Ganondorf, Mewtwo, Bowser, Ridley, Demise, and Hades are all characters I would love to play. The only newcomer I have interest in is Palutena. That is it. So, for me, few villains means weaker roster appeal.

Yes, 95% of the SFIV cast is uninteresting to me for this reason. I tried to like Oni, but he's so terrible I had to stop playing him. I main Blanka, who isn't evil, but is non-human, which generally appeals to me as well. In UMvC3, I main Firebrand/Dormammu/Shuma-Gorath, a team of 3 villains. The diversity of that cast offers me a lot of options, and I wish all fighting games had so many villainous options for people like me. I still don't play BlazBlue because it has one villain, and he is lame.

No offense but I feel like this is less about aesthetics and more about weird hangups.

 

[JCX]

Wolf for background dialogue right?

If Star Wolf theme is gone, I will be unhappy.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Link?

No, Link's in the game. Twice, even.

 

[Kouriozan]

Link?

Currently looking for it.

 

[IntelliHeath]

There were past rumor of characters getting cut, mainly from the Gematsu leak.

Source please?

Edited: Beaten.

 

[Scooter155]

No, Link's in the game. Twice, even.

Ha.

 

[RobFox64tm]

Currently looking for it.

I honestly only remember that leak talking about who was added, not cut.

 

[Kouriozan]

I honestly only remember that leak talking about who was added, not cut.

There : http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...ano-gematsu-leak.353570/page-52#post-16866157

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

It hurts this list that ganondorf is a clone as well despite being such an iconic nintendo character. Some of the other ones in this list barely even feel like villains as well. It's why i'm still bitterly disappointed that skull kid/majora didn't get in. He's such a unique and awesome villain and he would have been perfect.

No way, I totally scratch my head whenever I see this. It's like people don't understand Skull Kid.

He's NOT perfect for Smash Bros., because he's not the type of villain who actually gets down and dirty and fights. He's the joker who sits around and just fucks things up and watches with glee. He's chaos incarnate.

I mean, his "Boss Battle" just has him flying around, and you play a song and beat him. Majora's Mask itself even calls him a "puppet". Why people think he'd be the perfect fit for Smash, I'll never know.

In fact, his rumored inclusion in Project M bothers me far more than them using Knuckles. He's that one character I instantly dismiss a roster as ridiculous when I see him on it.

 

[Golnei]

I honestly only remember that leak talking about who was added, not cut.

It did say there was doubt on whether to retain Lucas. Perhaps that's what was being referred to?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Didn't Gematsu say Lucas was gone?

 

[IntelliHeath]

There : http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...ano-gematsu-leak.353570/page-52#post-16866157

oh Lucas. It was probable, yeah.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Didn't Gematsu say Lucas was gone?

They said there were talks to remove him, but it seemed to be in the air.

 

[Scooter155]

No way, I totally scratch my head whenever I see this. It's like people don't understand Skull Kid.

He's NOT perfect for Smash Bros., because he's not the type of villain who actually gets down and dirty and fights. He's the joker who sits around and just fucks things up and watches with glee. He's chaos incarnate.

I mean, his "Boss Battle" just has him flying around, and you play a song and beat him. Majora's Mask itself even calls him a "puppet". Why people think he'd be the perfect fit for Smash, I'll never know.

In fact, his rumored inclusion in Project M bothers me far more than them using Knuckles. He's that one character I instantly dismiss a roster as ridiculous when I see him on it.

Majora would be pretty cool though. And then they could give Link "Fierce Deity" as his Final Smash.

Mmm mmm good.

 

[Kouriozan]

oh Lucas. It was probable, yeah.

Yeah I should have said character without the "s" but that is only about Lucas.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

You know, I don't think that picture of the menus and the All-Star Icon was from the ESRB...they weren't in the Imgur Album, were they?

They were posted to /v/ by a different leaker, All-Star as he called himself, and the quality of them looked a bit clearer.

If the ultimate source of the leakers, who gave information to MFL and All-Star, apparently still has the final game with him, I wonder if the pictures that emerged yesterday showing the menus weren't from the ESRB reel, but new pictures he took of the actual game and sent to All-Star/NessInEagleland.

 

[Kansoku]

Also, if it had to be a Kid Icarus character (because can copy-paste model, yadda yadda), why not Phosphora and Pandora?

Much better than pit recolor

Spoiler

I`m going to be salty about this for decades.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

No way, I totally scratch my head whenever I see this. It's like people don't understand Skull Kid.

He's NOT perfect for Smash Bros., because he's not the type of villain who actually gets down and dirty and fights. He's the joker who sits around and just fucks things up and watches with glee. He's chaos incarnate.

I mean, his "Boss Battle" just has him flying around, and you play a song and beat him. Majora's Mask itself even calls him a "puppet". Why people think he'd be the perfect fit for Smash, I'll never know.

In fact, his rumored inclusion in Project M bothers me far more than them using Knuckles. He's that one character I instantly dismiss a roster as ridiculous when I see him on it.

I think people (myself included) want Skull Kid because the focus isn't really on Skull Kid, it's on Majora's Mask. Majora's Mask has a lot of cool powers, but you can't exactly have a disembodied mask floating around - just like in the original game, it needs a puppet. The choices for a body, then, are Skull Kid, Majora's Incarnation, and Majora's Wrath. I think Skull Kid is the best choice because he has the most personality of the three, and he's the one you see most of the game.

Just because you don't engage Skull Kid in direct combat in MM doesn't mean he can't be adapted for Smash. Loyalty to source material is important, but it's fine to bend things a little bit if it makes a good character.

 

[AdventureRacing]

No way, I totally scratch my head whenever I see this. It's like people don't understand Skull Kid.

He's NOT perfect for Smash Bros., because he's not the type of villain who actually gets down and dirty and fights. He's the joker who sits around and just fucks things up and watches with glee. He's chaos incarnate.

I mean, his "Boss Battle" just has him flying around, and you play a song and beat him. Majora's Mask itself even calls him a "puppet". Why people think he'd be the perfect fit for Smash, I'll never know.

In fact, his rumored inclusion in Project M bothers me far more than them using Knuckles. He's that one character I instantly dismiss a roster as ridiculous when I see him on it.

I don't necessarily think a characters inclination to get down and dirty and fight is very relevant to whether or not they should be included in a smash bros game. Did you think game and watch seemed like a character who would be awesome to see fight? Or wii fit trainer? What about ROB?

He's a perfect fit because he's an awesome and unique design that could have a completely different fighting style to any other character. I also think you could give him a style which doesn't necessarily betray the type of character he is.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Majora would be pretty cool though. And then they could give Link "Fierce Deity" as his Final Smash.

Mmm mmm good.

I think Majora would also seem...a bit off in Smash too. He's too bizarre and doesn't really have any characteristics or personality.

The rest of the Smash cast all pretty much have some "humanoid" element to them that make them relatable and appealing to a player, even like Charizard and Game and Watch. In fact another reason I think Ridley might never be put into Smash as playable is he's too monstrous and feral.

 

[maxcriden]

You're not alone, I think we all cried.

When did the movie come out? I think I was 12 or 13. Right in my Pokemon phase, totally obssessed with the TCG. The...the kids who once liked Pokemon who call me Dragonite because he's my fave.... :'(

(LOL, I think I told you this story before Kourio!)

 

[KelpPlankton]

In terms of cut characters, Sakurai did say relatively early on that not all of Brawl's characters would be able to return for the new game.

However he also said the roster was going to be roughly the same size which SURE AIN'T TRUE.

 

[maxcriden]

Well, I think this is partially true. Sakurai-developed Kirby has a pretty unique take on "villains". I mean, look at DeDeDe. I consider him a "villain", yet he's fairly complex compared to Bowser and Ganondorf in that he fluctuates in his villainy. Same with Meta Knight, who doesn't really side into either group.

I sort of see the villains appearing in Smash as Sakurai showing their more noble sides, where they fight honorably against their foes. Ultimately, they're not pure evil in his view, like the other characters they're simply written as one way, and Smash allows players to use the characters in ways that go against their "canon" personalities. In some battles, Link is the villain and Ganondorf is the hero, for example.

I agree with you about Dedede, Meta Knight, and Bowsie (err, Bowser), but in what context is Ganon(dorf) ever a hero?

 

[Scooter155]

I think Majora would also seem...a bit off in Smash too. He's too bizarre and doesn't really have any characteristics or personality.

The rest of the Smash cast all pretty much have some "humanoid" element to them that make them relatable and appealing to a player, even like Charizard and Game and Watch. In fact another reason I think Ridley might never be put into Smash as playable is he's too monstrous and feral.

I've said the exact same thing about Ridley, so I see where you're coming from, but I think Skull Kid (wearing the mask) with Majora as a Final Smash would be pretty nifty.

 

[JStein0222]

Just trying to get caught up to speed here. Is there a collection of all the leak images/info/videos somewhere?

 

[Karsticles]

No offense but I feel like this is less about aesthetics and more about weird hangups.

No offense taken; you do not understand aesthetics.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

I don't necessarily think a characters inclination to get down and dirty and fight is very relevant to whether or not they should be included in a smash bros game. Did you think game and watch seemed like a character who would be awesome to see fight? Or wii fit trainer? What about ROB?

I think the difference in those cases are they are the only possible representatives from their series, more or less. They aren't the perfect characters to use from those series, but they're important as they represent and individual franchise and are more or less the "player characters".

But Zelda has plenty of more battle-ready characters to pull from, which is why I never got people thinking Skull Kid had a legitimate chance or was a front-runner.

 

[jonno394]

I agree with you about Dedede, Meta Knight, and Bowsie (err, Bowser), but in what context is Ganon(dorf) ever a hero?

Not heroic but wind waker ganondorf is definitely a character I could empathise with.

 

[Violet_0]

No way, I totally scratch my head whenever I see this. It's like people don't understand Skull Kid.

He's NOT perfect for Smash Bros., because he's not the type of villain who actually gets down and dirty and fights. He's the joker who sits around and just fucks things up and watches with glee. He's chaos incarnate.

I mean, his "Boss Battle" just has him flying around, and you play a song and beat him. Majora's Mask itself even calls him a "puppet". Why people think he'd be the perfect fit for Smash, I'll never know.

In fact, his rumored inclusion in Project M bothers me far more than them using Knuckles. He's that one character I instantly dismiss a roster as ridiculous when I see him on it.

I could easily see him as mage-type character that prefers to fight with spells instead of getting physical

Princess Peach is in this game, so everything goes

 

[IntelliHeath]

Also, if it had to be a Kid Icarus character (because can copy-paste model, yadda yadda), why not Phosphora and Pandora?

Much better than pit recolor

Spoiler

I`m going to be salty about this for decades.

Since many people said that they want Fire Emblem to be made by Nacmo-Bandai with Soul Caliber Team. So I don't mind to see Kid Icarus Uprising fighting game made by Arcsys.

 

[maxcriden]

So, am I correct in my assessment of these leaks in that we know a good majority of the characters, but there are still a handful of them left that we do NOT know about? Assuming this is the case, then how do we know for sure who has and hasn't been cut? How do we know who has and hasn't been added, as well? There's a lot of people jumping the gun in this thread, but it sounds like there's still plenty of surprises left for us. I'm also inclined to not believe any lists of cut characters without any solid proof, so maybe we should all just calm down and wait the three weeks or so until we know for certain what the situation is.

I still believe Mewtwo and Ice Climbers will be in the roster, and I haven't seen anything solid to suggest otherwise.

I agree that Mewtwo will probably be in. I think Dixie and Chorus Kids are likely, too. The evidence against Ice Climbers is that Sakurai has expressed concern in the past about the 3DS's ability to perform properly with the dual characters of Nana and Popo on the screen.

The smart thing is to believe only what is in screenshot /video form and ignore everything else. For now the most likely scenario is that we already know the full roster for the 3DS. There isn't any guarantee of DLC.

FWIW, the extra space on the CSS leads me to believe we know the majority of the roster but that 3-5 characters remain to be revealed. I can't see them leaving extra space like that.

 

[RobFox64tm]

There : http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...ano-gematsu-leak.353570/page-52#post-16866157

Well that just talks about Lucas, and he was always one of the more likely cuts anyway.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

I agree with you about Dedede, Meta Knight, and Bowsie (err, Bowser), but in what context is Ganon(dorf) ever a hero?

I mean in terms of Smash Brothers, there's no set "hero" or "villain", it changes depending on who the player controls. To some players who main Ganondorf, he's the "hero", because that's who they control and love to use, and Link might be the villain simply as he's the opponent.

But in Smash, at the end of the day, everyone claps and cheers for the victors, so there's no Hero/Villain distinction ultimately.

 

[maxcriden]

From top of my head, did someone said that there are no Event matches in 3DS? I guess it might be exclusive to Wii U.

I want to say Events and Challenges aren't confirmed yet. I guess we have Challenges in the form of the KI:U-looking treasure hunt page. So I guess we just haven't seen all of the menus in enough detail to know if Events are in. I hope they are, but maybe they're seen as more of a console iteration feature.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

No offense taken; you do not understand aesthetics.

That is a pretty dumb thing to say about anyone.

 

[maxcriden]

Majora would be pretty cool though. And then they could give Link "Fierce Deity" as his Final Smash.

Mmm mmm good.

They can show off his Newcomer trailer when they announce MM 3D. :-/

 

[Kouriozan]

Well that just talks about Lucas, and he was always one of the more likely cuts anyway.

Indeed.
But the lack of Ice Climbers in the leak is really troubling.

 

[Ryce]

Also, if it had to be a Kid Icarus character (because can copy-paste model, yadda yadda), why not Phosphora and Pandora?

If Melee and Lucina are anything to go by, it was only ever a matter of including Dark Pit as a quick clone or not including him at all. He didn't beat out Phosphora or Pandora to take up some mythical "third Kid Icarus character" slot.

 

[Papercuts]

For me, it's less about whether the character is a hero or villain and more about wanting to play as popular characters that aren't normally playable.

Villains just tend to fall into that category for obvious reasons.

This is also how I feel, specifically with a fan service filled game like this. You play Mario in all of his games, but there's a different appeal to being able to actually use Bowser since it doesn't happen otherwise(outside of the RPGs). You play as Link, never Zelda, but here you can. Along with something resembling Ganondorf.

It doesn't have much directly to do with the gameplay itself, but adds additional appeal on a different level.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

I don't think the Polar Bear is exactly conclusive to say Ice Climbers are in...

We've yet to really see him even acknowledged, he appeared in one shot in a whole batch of press screens, and in a POTD that was quickly removed. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ice Climbers were planned at one point, but axed due to difficulties getting them to work like presumably happened.

The Polar Bear might ultimately be cut from the final version alongside them, and his appearance in two early screen-shots is ultimately simply what could've been. Did anyone ever run into him in Smash Run during the E3/BB Demo?

 

[BGBW]

I believe in Sakurai
He's always been one to deliver,
But there's a tiny snag,
Causing my anxiety to simmer,
Don't really wanna make a fuss,
But can you please just confirm Lucas?

Don't wanna believe the leaks,
Maybe the information is incomplete,
Even if it has to be DLC,
His return would be oh so sweet,
Please put me out of my misery,
And confirm the hero of Mother 3!

You may say I'm a fool,
Feelin' the way that I do
You can call me a numpty,
Or something equally crass,
Even stick me with the Ridley fans,
But I still believe in Lucas!

 

[RobFox64tm]

Indeed.
But the lack of Ice Climbers in the leak is really troubling.

Troubling, but hardly proof of anything.

 

[Scooter155]

Well that just talks about Lucas, and he was always one of the more likely cuts anyway.

Why don't you just give me a nice paper cut and pour some lemon juice on it, while you're at it?

 

[Rayis]

People who are still on #TeamFake even with all the overwhelming evidence we have about the leak being real, you could supply the entire universe with salt with all that denial

 

[Violet_0]

I agree with you about Dedede, Meta Knight, and Bowsie (err, Bowser), but in what context is Ganon(dorf) ever a hero?

he tried to raise Hyrule from the bottom of the sea once!

 

[AdventureRacing]

I think the difference in those cases are they are the only possible representatives from their series, more or less. They aren't the perfect characters to use from those series, but they're important as they represent and individual franchise and are more or less the "player characters".

But Zelda has plenty of more battle-ready characters to pull from, which is why I never got people thinking Skull Kid had a legitimate chance or was a front-runner.

I didn't realise characters were chosen just to fill a set number of slots for a certain franchise. ROB isn't even from a series and game and watch hardly represents any series. They were introduced because he they thought it would be cool and came up with cool and unique designs. I don't see him being any more of an unrealistic choice than a NES peripheral.

Also how does sheik really represent the series better than skull kid? I also don't know that we need to different links but i guess that's arguable. I would like to see more villains in general but zelda ones in particular is awesome. At the moment we only have one and he has basically been completely wasted.

 

[JavelinRobin]

No way, I totally scratch my head whenever I see this. It's like people don't understand Skull Kid.

He's NOT perfect for Smash Bros., because he's not the type of villain who actually gets down and dirty and fights. He's the joker who sits around and just fucks things up and watches with glee. He's chaos incarnate.

I mean, his "Boss Battle" just has him flying around, and you play a song and beat him. Majora's Mask itself even calls him a "puppet". Why people think he'd be the perfect fit for Smash, I'll never know.

In fact, his rumored inclusion in Project M bothers me far more than them using Knuckles. He's that one character I instantly dismiss a roster as ridiculous when I see him on it.

Well, to be fair, we're looking at a game that is featuring a dog and duck combo and they aren't exactly the type of character that screams "Perfect for Smash!" so I'm pretty sure Skull Kid could've gotten a good treatment.

 

[maxcriden]

Not heroic but wind waker ganondorf is definitely a character I could empathise with.

I can't recall, what made him more empathetic? Just that he was jealous of the more beneficent aspects of the Triforce bestowed upon Link and Zelda?

I mean in terms of Smash Brothers, there's no set "hero" or "villain", it changes depending on who the player controls. To some players who main Ganondorf, he's the "hero", because that's who they control and love to use, and Link might be the villain simply as he's the opponent.

But in Smash, at the end of the day, everyone claps and cheers for the victors, so there's no Hero/Villain distinction ultimately.

Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying that.

Indeed.
But the lack of Ice Climbers in the leak is really troubling.

On the bright side, I found this fun fact about Nana and Popo for you, Kourio:

■In the German release of the game, Popo's name was changed to Pepe. This was due to the fact that Popo means butt in German.