• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

So I'm Thinking of Trying out Veganism

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thing is nonsense. Shameful that it comes from a respected institution like Harvard.

The mere fact that they are differentiating "refined grains" and "whole grains" when it comes to risk of diabetes and heart disease shows just about how far you should trust that thing.

So one of the most respected Health Institutions in the world if not the most is nonsense?

Give me examples that back your claim. Harvard Health publications are based on years and years of studies, so show me a good paper that contradicts their claims.

More information on whole grains from Harvard:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/whole-grains/
 

GobFather

Member
I've never tried vegan but I started on a raw diet a few months ago. I went cold turkey for the first week with a juice fast then started eating a regular raw diet.

From my experience, it was very hard since I love meat, sweets and everything that is in an American diet. The first week was the hardest because of the juice fast but since the change in my raw diet I feel more energetic, focused and my overall health has improved. My family saw the changes and have started to try raw diet but they are slowly progressing it since they can't do cold turkey. Twice a week they eat only vegetable and veg/fruit juices. Good luck!
 
Start as a vegetarian and adjust. I've been a vegetarian for over four years with great results health wise. Just realize you can eat an unhealthy vegetarian diet. It's more about eating lots of healthy fruits, vegetables, and whole grains than it is about giving up meat.

A full vegan diet isn't a walk in the park, and you gain the majority of the benefits with a healthy vegetarian diet.

And an all out LOL at everyone saying a vegetarian diet isn't healthier. You don't get to post some sniping bullshit and walk away like a winner. Eat whatever you want, but don't spread lies. There are hundreds of peer reviewed studies that show it's healthier for your heart and longevity. It's easily one of the most scientifically supported dietary choices and the consensus is in.
 
Right back at you. When you are talking about the benefits of something, it's on the burden of the person or group claiming those benefits to display evidence.

I made no claims in this thread. Will you or will you not support your claim that:

There is no compelling evidence for health benefits unless you're just eating junk from fast food joints... In fact, you'd be more likely to find the contrary (detrimental health effects) if you are on a good diet with plenty of animal products and go Vegan.
 
You can't make friends with salad.

Yeah, I eat with coworkers almost every day and usually hit up the salad bar. You have to put up with initial funny looks.

Then you win them over with your charming personality and dashing good looks instead of disguising your boringness behind a T-bone steak.
 

Krowley

Member
Start as a vegetarian and adjust. I've been a vegetarian for over four years with great results health wise. Just realize you can eat an unhealthy vegetarian diet. It's more about eating lots of healthy fruits, vegetables, and whole grains than it is about giving up meat.

A full vegan diet isn't a walk in the park, and you gain the majority of the benefits with a healthy vegetarian diet.

And an all out LOL at everyone saying a vegetarian diet isn't healthier. You don't get to post some sniping bullshit and walk away like a winner. Eat whatever you want, but don't spread lies. There are hundreds of peer reviewed studies that show it's healthier for your heart and longevity. It's easily one of the most scientifically supported dietary choice and the consensus is in.

The biggest health related reason for recommending a vegetarian diet has always been to avoid animal fats. The idea that animal fats are bad for you has always been built on faulty data, and it has really begun to lose traction fast with recent studies.

Read "The Big Fat Surprise: Why Butter, Meat and Cheese Belong in a Healthy Diet " by Nina Teicholz for a good (and exhaustively detailed) overview of the subject. It shows how politics was more responsible than science for the vast majority of the heart association's (and government's) dietary recommendations. The government jumped the gun very early on in their support of the idea that animal fat caused heart disease, and then when data didn't actually back the idea up, none of the big shots running things could abandon the idea without losing their reputations. It's one of the worst cases of pure junk science in the history of this country.

Sugar is enemy number one. Grain is enemy number two. Meat is not the enemy. When people go on a vegan or vegetarian diet, they might see some health benefits simply because they might start cooking more, eating more natural foods, being more conscious about their nutrition. The fact that they quit eating meat probably has little or nothing to do with it.

Some additional articles on the subject:
Saturated fat does not cause heart disease
Study shows no association between dietary saturated fats and cardiovascular disease risk
 
The biggest health related reason for recommending a vegetarian diet has always been to avoid animal fats. The idea that animal fats are bad for you has always been built on faulty data, and it has really begun to lose traction fast with recent studies.

Read "The Big Fat Surprise: Why Butter, Meat and Cheese Belong in a Healthy Diet by Nina Teicholz" for a good overview of the subject.

He, is just about knowing what type of fats eat and with moderation:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/fats-full-story/

Anyway a good critic about that book and how it just pick citations that benefit her point of view.


http://thescienceofnutrition.wordpress.com/2014/06/30/the-big-fat-surprise-a-critical-review-part-2/
 
The biggest health related reason for recommending a vegetarian diet has always been to avoid animal fats. The idea that animal fats are bad for you has always been built on faulty data, and it has really begun to lose traction fast with recent studies.

Read "The Big Fat Surprise: Why Butter, Meat and Cheese Belong in a Healthy Diet " by Nina Teicholz for a good overview of the subject.

Sugar is enemy number one. Grain is enemy number two. Meat is not the enemy. When people go on a vegan or vegetarian diet, they might see some health benefits simply because they might start cooking more, eating more natural foods, being more conscious about their nutrition. The fact that they quit eating meat probably has little or nothing to do with it.


Pop culture books on science are almost always flawed in the same way: they cherry pick data, remove anything that disagrees with their original premise, and plays narrative tricks throughout. The Big Fat is no different. Peer reviewed science exists for a reason.


Here is a well researched and documented refutation of the book:

https://thescienceofnutrition.wordp...he-big-fat-surprise-a-critical-review-part-1/


Also, the study you cite has been Criticized for having numerous flaws:

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutriti...-heart-disease-study-is-seriously-misleading/
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
As for B12, Vitamin D, and Zinc: a fortified cereal, soy/almond milk, and nutritional yeast will cover any deficiencies that could arise.

Not necessarily. The absorption efficiency of B12 by the body is really bad, and the amounts of B12 in these foods are usually too small and comprised of the even less absorbable cyanocobalamin instead of the more recommendable methylcobalamin.

If one wants to go vegan, supplements like VEG1 should be part of the diet, especially to cover for days where the intake of certain micronutrients is not sufficiently covered by regular food.

OP, generally, a challenge with a vegan diet is that it requires you to be more informed and aware about what you eat to prevent health disadvantages. Not that carnivore diets don't require that as well, but Vegan diets are more complicated, especially if your daily schedule does not allow you to prepare all your meals by yourself. In this case, a vegetarian diet is more practical and safe, especially if you only care about the health aspect of a meat-free diet, and less about the ethical ones.

As a side note, eating meat is not necessarily a disadvantage for your health. Generally speaking, diversity is always a benefit if you take everything with appropriate moderation. But the amount of meat that nutritionists recommend is so low that most people would almost consider the resulting diet to be semi-vegetarian.
 
That book has already been largely discredited by the nutritional community. Hell, there are page by takedown articles you can access via simple Google queries. It's a very narrow look that shifts the goalposts by making everything about fats, which is not the main reason why vegetarians avoid meat. It's easy to burn the straw man after you've created him.

I have nothing against butter. I eat eggs. I don't like milk but that's a personal choice.

The book doesn't address the plethora of scientific studies that prove vegetarians live longer and healthier lives than meat eaters. Heart disease is the number one killer in America, and one portion of our population is essentially unaffected by it. If that doesn't tell you something, then I guess you should get back to reading an unrelated book on fats.
 

GobFather

Member
Not necessarily. The absorption efficiency of B12 by the body is really bad, and the amounts of B12 in these foods are usually too small and comprised of the even less absorbable cyanocobalamin instead of the more recommendable methylcobalamin.

If one wants to go vegan, supplements like VEG1 should be part of the diet, especially to cover for days where the intake of certain micronutrients is not sufficiently covered by regular food.

OP, generally, a challenge with a vegan diet is that it requires you to be more informed and aware about what you eat to prevent health disadvantages. Not that carnivore diets don't require that as well, but Vegan diets are more complicated, especially if your daily schedule does not allow you to prepare all your meals by yourself. In this case, a vegetarian diet is more practical and safe, especially if you only care about the health aspect of a meat-free diet, and less about the ethical ones.

As a side note, eating meat is not necessarily a disadvantage for your health. Generally speaking, diversity is always a benefit if you take everything with appropriate moderation. But the amount of meat that nutritionists recommend is so low that most people would almost consider the resulting diet to be semi-vegetarian.

Yes, regardless if you believe meat is ok to eat or not. All nutritionist and even the Harvard's healthy eating chart shows that majority of your diet should be vegetables and a small amount of meat.
 

Krowley

Member
That book has already been largely discredited by the nutritional community. Hell, there are page by takedown articles you can access via simple Google queries. It's a very narrow look that shifts the goalposts by making everything about fats, which is not the main reason why vegetarians avoid meat. It's easy to burn the straw man after you've created him.

I have nothing against butter. I eat eggs. I don't like milk but that's a personal choice.

The book doesn't address the plethora of scientific studies that prove vegetarians live longer and healthier lives than meat eaters. Heart disease is the number one killer in America, and one portion of our population is essentially unaffected by it. If that doesn't tell you something, then I guess you should get back to reading an unrelated book on fats.

Hey man, I don't mean to personally judge your choices. We just have different views of the data.

Switching to a moderately low-carb diet (about 80 grams a day) allowed me to lose more than 100 pounds in about a year's time, and made me 10 times healthier than I was before. I was able to stop taking blood pressure medicine, I have more energy for exercise now. It's been great for me, and I eat way more meat than I ever did before. So when people ask me what sort of diet they should follow, I'm definitely not going to point them toward vegetarianism.

edit// I don't dispute the idea that many vegetarians eat a healthier diet than the average American. They tend to be more health conscious people in general, and they probably think a lot more about their eating choices, but I think cutting meat out of your diet is far from ideal.
 

ChuyMasta

Member
You've made a good start by telling everyone first

Indeed. Make sure it is the first thing you mention when you are with friends who love meat. And then brag about the non sufficient scientific research done on health benefits for a vegan diet. But you will feel a sense of superiority that will trump any argument.
 
Indeed. Make sure it is the first thing you mention when you are with friends who love meat. And then brag about the non sufficient scientific research done on health benefits for a vegan diet. But you will feel a sense of superiority that will trump any argument.

Eh, there are a lot of studies about vegan/vegetarian diet, Harvard Health basically has a division on that.
 

GobFather

Member
Hey man, I don't mean to personally judge your choices. We just have different views of the data.

Switching to a moderately low-carb diet (about 80 grams a day) allowed me to lose more than 100 pounds in about a year's time, and made me 10 times healthier than I was before. I was able to stop taking blood pressure medicine, I have more energy for exercise now. It's been great for me, and I eat way more meat than I ever did before. So when people ask me what sort of diet they should follow, I'm definitely not going to point them toward vegetarianism.

edit// I don't dispute the idea that many vegetarians eat a healthier diet than the average American, just because they tend to be more health conscious people in general, but I think cutting meat out of your diet is far from ideal.

So do you think you lost weight and got healthier because you started cutting out bad things from your diet or do you think it's because you are eating more meat? The healthiest would be to eat more vegetables and as all research/recommendations show.. Veg should be eating more than meat. As someone said, semi -vegetarian is healthier. You may be healthier but not necessarily healthiest.

I started my grandfather on a vegetarian diet, he also lost a lot of weight and felt more energetic and was able to stop a lot of his meds. Ofcourse for me, I'm on a raw diet and I feel really good! :)
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Eh, there are a lot of studies about vegan/vegetarian diet, Harvard Health basically has a division on that.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

[...]

An evidence- based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals.

[...]
 

GobFather

Member
http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/planning-meals/meal-planning-for-vegetarians/

Yes! A vegetarian diet is a healthy option, even if you have diabetes. Research supports that following this type of diet can help prevent and manage diabetes. In fact, research on vegan diets has found that carbohydrate and calorie restrictions were not necessary and still promoted weight loss and lowered participants' A1C.

Vegan diets are naturally higher in fiber, much lower in saturated fat, and cholesterol-free when compared to a traditional American diet. The high fiber in this diet may help you feel full for a longer time after eating and may help you eat less over all. When fiber intake is greater than 50 grams per day on a vegan diet, it may help lower blood glucose levels.

This diet also tends to cost less. Meat, poultry, and fish are usually the most expensive foods we eat.

If you need to take supplements, isn't that a proof that a vegan diet is not healthy?
Many non vegan take supplements, does that mean it isn't healthy either?
 
As Zoned mentioned, you might wanna start with ovolactovegetarian, then move to vegetarian, then move to vegan, OP. Vegan is more about a lifestyle.
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
wikipedian_protester.png

When someone claims there isn't any compelling evidence, the onus is not on him - it's on who makes the claim to post said compelling evidence.
Someone posting xkcd should know that.
 
When someone claims there isn't any compelling evidence, the onus is not on him - it's on who makes the claim to post said compelling evidence.
Someone posting xkcd should know that.


And multiple people have poster said evidence, yet posters continue to enter the thread to make the same claim then leave.
 

Krowley

Member
So do you think you lost weight and got healthier because you started cutting out bad things from your diet or do you think it's because you are eating more meat? The healthiest would be to eat more vegetables and as all research/recommendations show.. Veg should be eating more than meat. As someone said, semi -vegetarian is healthier. You may be healthier but not necessarily healthiest.

I started my grandfather on a vegetarian diet, he also lost a lot of weight and felt more energetic and was able to stop a lot of his meds. Ofcourse for me, I'm on a raw diet and I feel really good! :)

I think that without increasing my meat intake, my appetite would have been out of control.

The added protein and animal fat helped supply the energy that went away when I reduced the amount of sugar, grain and starch in my diet. And it also helped curb my hunger. By eating this way, I reduced my calorie consumption without even consciously thinking about it and never felt deprived.
 

ngower

Member
There are benefits to doing it. Established, scientific evidence. Don't listen to naysayers.

The most important thing you have to ask yourself about veganism is why? Why do you want to do it? Is it for ethical reasons? Health reasons? Curiosity? Let that motivate you. Try a few recipes from really easy vegan sites (Post Punk Kitchen and Vegan Stoner are the two most beginner-friendly, I think). Try out a vegan restaurant if you've got one in your area. Don't just eat salads or you'll want to kill yourself.

Also, I'd recommend if you do this in the long term to get some D and B12 supplements.
 
there is a lot of improvements in vegan products lately
sure why not OP.... you can always revert if your body can't take it

Check yourself first (health test) and talk with a dietician
 

Box

Member
I think you should find some vegan foods you like to eat first. You say that you eat meat a lot. You're going to need to find things to eat that can take its place.
 

entremet

Member
Thing is nonsense. Shameful that it comes from a respected institution like Harvard.

The mere fact that they are differentiating "refined grains" and "whole grains" when it comes to risk of diabetes and heart disease shows just about how far you should trust that thing.

That's Walter Willet most likely. He's been on the healthy whole grain bandwagon for a while. So yeah, don't trust Harvard.
 

GobFather

Member
With a healthy diet you don't need supplement. You can take some anyway if you want but you're just going to piss most of it.
So just because some take supplements, it's not a sign that the diet should be generalized based on that? Oh good, I thought you didn't know.
 

GabDX

Banned
So just because some take supplements, it's not a sign that the diet should be generalized based on that? Oh good, I thought you didn't know.

The problem is that vegans must take supplements. This, to me, is proof that humans were not designed for that kind of diet but I guess some people disagree. =/
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
The average vegan/vegetarian might be healtheir than the average person who eats meat, but that doesn't mean that it's the lack of meat itself that makes you healthier. Vegetarians and vegans are just more conscious of what they eat and they typically eat less of the processed crap that's making us all sick.

If you commit to eating a healthy diet that includes meat you'll be in better shape than the average vegan. You won't be forced to meet quotas of certain foods or pop a bunch of supplements to get many essential micronutrients. You won't have to take B12 supplements. You won't have to eat pounds and pounds of chia or flax seeds to get the same amount of EPA/DHA Omega-3's that you could get from a single serving of salmon. And you won't have to give up anything. Just change how much of the bad stuff you do eat.
 
Indeed. Make sure it is the first thing you mention when you are with friends who love meat. And then brag about the non sufficient scientific research done on health benefits for a vegan diet. But you will feel a sense of superiority that will trump any argument.

What would the world be without people like you?
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
This, to me, is proof that humans were not designed for that kind of diet but I guess some people disagree. =/

In that sense, our entire society is "unnatural", as living in houses with perfect protection from weather and predators, or the benefits of modern medicine are also something that we were not "designed" for. It is illogical to assume that the behavior and circumstances of our direct ancestors represent the preferred or only way of living, or that it is necessarily beneficial in any way, or that alternatives are necessarily detrimental. Just as your body heals better when supported by modern medicine, your body can be healthier when supported by modern nutrition.

What matters is to determine (1) what our body needs and (2) to provide our body with it in some way. If you do this with food produced by our food industry or with supplements doesn't make any difference. One might argue that the latter are often times no more artificial/processed than the former.
 
The problem is that vegans must take supplements. This, to me, is proof that humans were not designed for that kind of diet but I guess some people disagree. =/

But there's nothing inherently wrong with taking supplements, you're kinda veering onto the whole "natural is good"-argument - which is a naturalistic fallacy.

If a diet is healthy, and the diet contains supplements, how is it unhealthy?
 
Not eating meat and dairy is simple as hell.

Coordinating meals with a meat-eating spouse, eating out, eating at work, being invited to dinner etc. is what's going to be hard.

Also, vegan really is waaaay harder than lactoovo-vegetarianism since you have to keep track of ingredients to a much higher degree. Unless you're going vegan-light.

Are you going to cut gelatine? Skim milk powder? Rennet? What about shellac, beeswax, honey? Any egg or dairy containing cake or treat? Anything made with butter?

Try and cut as much from your diet as you feel comfortable with and start there. If that works, move on. That's my personal advice.
 
I've always wanted to try out being a vegetarian or a vegan but I'm too lazy to put the work into it. I don't think I'd miss some products all that much, I just can't be arsed preparing healthy meals.
 

Famassu

Member
Being a full on vegan isn't a good thing.

All things in moderation.

Eating meat every day is really bad for you, but getting rid of meat is bad too. I read a study saying vegans had a vitamin d deficiency, bone density deficiency, and an iron and zinc deficiency. This can lead to serious issues, like osteoporosis.
No, it's not. It's only bad for you if you do it wrong (that is, don't look up what you need to replace from not eating meat and how), just like you can have a meat-including unhealthy diet if it's too simple and lacks some basic nutrients.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom