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Doctor Who Off-Season | Hey Missy, you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind

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Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
On the whole there's definitely this kind of "thematic inconsequence" in Moffat's Who imo. The characters literally spell out that there's supposed to be a specific "thing" going on, but it more often than not it doesn't amount to much and ends in a whimper. The Doctor being forgotten, the Impossible Girl, a lot about the Doctor and River's relationship, etc. At times you can feel it's being worked in reverse, that it's already decided that the characters need to reach a certain beat, and then when it happens it's not impactful or earned because you were verbally hammered with the idea from the get go without little to actually give weight to said idea.

It's still present, but Series 8 was much better about this. I found that the background work on how they lie was neat, and closing it with that cafe scene conversation in Death in Heaven was much better than having them saying shit like "rule number 1, the Doctor lies!!".

I want series 9 to be more like the Caretaker, Flatline, Mummy. Just characters doing their thing without the script being held back by some supposedly grandiose plan that can't sustain itself. Have emotional weight be earned with events having real consequences for the characters, then leave it up to the viewer to take their own conclusions based on what is presented instead of just talked about.
 

Ceej

Member
I interpreted that theme not for the viewer to question whether or not the doctor is a good man, but that the doctor himself no longer knows whether or not he is a good man after the events in DotD and TotD. Probably one of my bigger disappointments with the season was with the more serious moments from Deep Breath and Into the Dalek being ignored in further episodes, maybe up until DiH.
 

Camwi

Member
I have to admit, I came into this thread expecting nothing but glowing praise. I don't know why exactly, but I think I've noticed that in other threads about a TV show.

I'm glad that I've read people complaining about Moffat. I feel like the episodes just haven't been as good since he took over. Sometimes I feel like he just throws shit around to purposely be as confusing as possible, and other times it just seems like an episode will climax at a weird point.

Take "The Angels Take Manhatten" for example. Unless I'm remembering this wrong, doesn't it end with Amy and Rory suddenly getting taken out by a weeping angel? The Doctor gets upset afterwards of course, but WTF happens with the angel? Do they stop after feeding on one or two people? EDIT - Now that I think about it, that's less an example of what I was talking about and more of a simple plothole. Sorry, I'm tired and my mind is all over the place right now.

Anyways, I feel like the show has gotten worse and worse. This might be the worse season yet but that's hard for me to say for sure. All I know is that this had what I feel like is the worst single episode ever, which is The Caretaker. That episode bored me to tears, and then kind of pissed me off when it was done because it really showed how far down the series has gotten.

Such a serious doctor was jarring to me at first, but I think I like him more than Matt Smith.

Lastly, I'll just say that I hope they're done with Clara already. Never really cared for her as a companion. I thought that one chubby dude with a baby would've made a great companion for Matt Smith, but I don't know if he would work well with Capaldi.
 
I have to admit, I came into this thread expecting nothing but glowing praise. I don't know why exactly, but I think I've noticed that in other threads about a TV show.

I don't think this has happened in any doctor who thread in the history of the internet
 
Doctor Who is so many different things to so many different people that you'll never get consensus.

See also: James Bond, Final Fantasy, etc.
 

Blader

Member
The Caretaker is a great episode and one of the best (and very) examples of character-driven writing that everyone's moaning about being lost during Moffat's time.
 

Camwi

Member
i don't think this has happened in any doctor who thread in the history of the internet

Well I'm new to Doctor Who threads, even though I've been watching the show since Eccleston. I'm glad there are such varied opinions on such a great series.

The Caretaker is a great episode and one of the best (and very) examples of character-driven writing that everyone's moaning about being lost during Moffat's time.

Well I see I'm alone with my opinion on that episode, based on peoples' ratings of it in this thread. Maybe I just hated it because I didn't care about Clara's relationship?

I dunno, just felt like nothing happened the entire episode.
 

Duster

Member
It was just sort of irrelevant for most of series 7, and then after the Daleks got their memories of the Doctor back in "Time of the Doctor" from the Church of Evil, it's never been brought up again.

That's a bit odd but probably for the best, he makes enough introductory speeches as it is.
 
Well I see I'm alone with my opinion on that episode, based on peoples' ratings of it in this thread. Maybe I just hated it because I didn't care about Clara's relationship?

I dunno, just felt like nothing happened the entire episode.

I liked it a lot, probably because mccoy is my favourite doctor, and this harkened back to his era - the doctor identified a threat and specifically arrived to deal with it. I found his interactions with everyone while he went about it rather entertaining too. The purely clara/danny stuff wasn't great, but there wasn't that much of it, and even there the parent/teacher conference was fun.

also the whole bowtie guy thing cracked me up
 
Lastly, I'll just say that I hope they're done with Clara already. Never really cared for her as a companion. I thought that one chubby dude with a baby would've made a great companion for Matt Smith, but I don't know if he would work well with Capaldi.

You talk about improving the quality of Doctor Who, then suggest introducing James Corden as a recurring character. Your message is confused.
 
You talk about improving the quality of Doctor Who, then suggest introducing James Corden as a recurring character. Your message is confused.

I don't have the antipathy for James Corden that many seem to, but Closing Time was 45 more minutes of him than Doctor Who really needed.
 

Camwi

Member
He's good in Gavin and Stacey, but his whole role in Gavin and Stacey is that he's an unlikable cunt.

I'll have to rewatch the (newer) series again, maybe I remember him differently in hindsight.

How about Captain Jack as a companion? Is he viewed favorably by the majority of the fans here?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I'll have to rewatch the (newer) series again, maybe I remember him differently in hindsight.

How about Captain Jack as a companion? Is he viewed favorably by the majority of the fans here?

Captain Jack was awesome (well I never watched Torchwood so can't speak for there)
 
Captain Jack was awesome (well I never watched Torchwood so can't speak for there)

I'll have to rewatch the (newer) series again, maybe I remember him differently in hindsight.

How about Captain Jack as a companion? Is he viewed favorably by the majority of the fans here?

I don't really recall much Jack hate in himself, but the opinions on Torchwood (particularly the later serialized/American funded series) vary pretty widely.

Wish Moffat would hurry up and reintroduce Captain Jack though. He's one of the only RTD series companions that would make much sense coming back, and he wrote his debut! I think if it weren't for the stigma surrounding Torchwood, he'd have shown up already. Apparently we'd have got him in Good Man Goes to War, which would have been much better than a group of quirky irritating strangers we're supposed to like as much as The Doctor seems to.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
Disclaimer: my posts may sound negative but I really enjoyed this season, in the other thread I did little but praise most episodes. But I feel like rambling a bit in the off-season thread. :p

Anyway, speaking of having actual consequences and things not ending in a whimper, regarding plot I wish the writers had more restraint with some concepts. It’s not even about budget, but about how certain events could be richer if used right by not biting more than can be chewed. Some examples from this season:

If you’re going to have the moon being an egg (interesting concept), make it matter for real and don’t make the creature that comes out of it shit another moon exactly the same shape and size of the previous one (something so ridiculous it has to happen off-screen).

If you’re going to make the world be engulfed by trees that grew overnight (interesting concept), don’t make it end with them all disappearing like it wasn’t a big deal and nothing happened. Maybe make it affect one town at first and work from there. Or make it affect the whole world if you must, but only if you can turn it into maybe a two-parter episode arch with characters somewhat dealing with the aftermath.

Mathieson got it right in Mummy and Flatline, and you can feel the confidence in the scripts. In the hands of a worse writer the creatures in Flatline would have attacked the entire world all at once, and we would have had those takes of people running around desperately that would have the weight of a piece of paper. Instead, it affects a small area and a cast of actual people interacting.

The Caretaker was good in that regard too; with the preview I was sure we would have the token scene of the school staff and children running away from the monster, but that didn’t happen and the episode was better for it. Listen also gets it right in its own way, despite the divisive ending.

tl;dr: avoid doing the “most/largest/baddest ______ in the world/galaxy” when it’s not necessary, and if you do make it worth it with reasonably tangible effects. Otherwise it ends up cheapening the whole thing.
 

Camwi

Member
Well crap, he can't be too busy with Arrow. I hope they do bring him back, though I'm sure being the new companion is asking too much.
 

Blader

Member
My guess is we aren't going to see Jack return until after Moffat leaves, if ever. He seems like he just wants to leave RTD's characters where he left them (he brought back Billie Piper for the 50th but as a completely different character!) and not disturb how Davies ended his run.
 
My guess is we aren't going to see Jack return until after Moffat leaves, if ever. He seems like he just wants to leave RTD's characters where he left them (he brought back Billie Piper for the 50th but as a completely different character!) and not disturb how Davies ended his run.

Yeah but he didn't want to disturb Rose because she'd literally got her happily ever after. Jack's future is probably about as open ended as The Doctor's, he can come back whenever, and his aging isn't a problem either.
 

Quick

Banned
I liked the way Moffat brought back Billie Piper. I thought it was clever to bring back Bad Wolf instead of Rose Tyler.
 

jdogmoney

Member
Can we talk about how Santa just sort of nonchalantly walked into the TARDIS, presumably while it was floating around where Gallifrey used to be?
 
If I remember correctly, the only problem in bringing back Barrowman was scheduling, not tastefulness. I believe Moffat likes Harkness, and had planned on having him in the 50th, but Barrowman couldn't break whatever obligations he already had.
 
I liked the way Moffat brought back Billie Piper. I thought it was clever to bring back Bad Wolf instead of Rose Tyler.

My eyes rolled really fucking hard when I saw Billie on the cast list, but I needn't worry. Her part was perfect. It perhaps implies one of Moffat's predestination paradoxes if the Doctor has any sense of who he's looking at when he first sees her in Rose, which I'm fine with.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Doctor Who is so many different things to so many different people that you'll never get consensus.

See also: James Bond, Final Fantasy, etc.

I think the trope-defining series for this has to be the Legend of Zelda. I've never seen any other series for which so many titles are claimed by one sub-group of the fan-base to be the best title and by others to be absolutely terrible.

MM4lyfe
 

Slowdive

Banned
If I remember correctly, the only problem in bringing back Barrowman was scheduling, not tastefulness. I believe Moffat likes Harkness, and had planned on having him in the 50th, but Barrowman couldn't break whatever obligations he already had.

He wasn't asked to be in the 50th, he really wanted to be in it though. He was meant to be back for A Good Man Goes to War but couldn't because he was filming Miracle Day.
 

MrBadger

Member
Disclaimer: my posts may sound negative but I really enjoyed this season, in the other thread I did little but praise most episodes. But I feel like rambling a bit in the off-season thread. :p

tl;dr: avoid doing the “most/largest/baddest ______ in the world/galaxy” when it’s not necessary, and if you do make it worth it with reasonably tangible effects. Otherwise it ends up cheapening the whole thing.

I agree completely. It's just not necessary to have the entire world in danger if you're just going to focus on one small part of it. Saying "it's happening all over the world" and having a quick montage of photos or news reports before just going back to focusing on where the main cast are doesn't really add anything to the story, and it certainly doesn't make the threat seem more threatening.
 

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
I'm calling it: Capaldi will be remembered as the best Doctor by the time he's done.

He definitely grew on me more slowly than Smith. I think it depends hugely on whether his tenure has the same kind of nosedive in quality that Tennant and Smith's did.
 
So series 8 was pretty great, yeah? The best "weird" alien in ages with the Flatline things, a nice mixture of tones between Robots of Sherwood and Listen, and only one real stinker in the entire bunch.

I'm not sure it was "great", but it was definitely a good season, and the best of the Moffat era. I enjoyed more episodes this season than I ever did in any season with Smith.

My rankings:

Deep Breath: 1/10
Into the Dalek: 8/10
Robot of Sherwood: 1/10
Listen: 0/10
Time Heist: 8/10
The Caretaker: 6/10
Kill the Moon: 8/10 (maybe a 9, I'm not really sure right now)
Mummy on the Orient Express: 8/10
Flatline: 8/10
In the Forest of the Night: 4/10
Dark Water/Death in Heaven: 3/10

That kind of looks all over the place, but the enjoyable episodes were very enjoyable. Kill the Moon was definitely the highlight of the season for me, and it's the episode I'm most looking forward to rewatching at some point. Into the Dalek had flaws, but it did have some good moments. Time Heist and Mummy were both solidly plotted episodes. Not classics, but they were very enjoyable to watch. Flatline was very creative and enjoyable.

Capaldi was also great in the second half of the season. I wasn't feeling him too much in the first couple of episodes, but once he got going he was great.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
You liked Kill the Moon? That's some uh... unusual opinions you have yourself there.
 

A-V-B

Member
It was a very up and down season, with a GREAT Doctor and a really good companion.

Next season needs a barrel full of writers, though. Bring back some classics.

May I suggest Gaiman, Cornell, and Mathieson? Those would make me insanely, eye-burstingly happy.
 

Symphonic

Member
I'm not sure it was "great", but it was definitely a good season, and the best of the Moffat era. I enjoyed more episodes this season than I ever did in any season with Smith.

My rankings:

Deep Breath: 1/10
Into the Dalek: 8/10
Robot of Sherwood: 1/10
Listen: 0/10
Time Heist: 8/10
The Caretaker: 6/10
Kill the Moon: 8/10 (maybe a 9, I'm not really sure right now)
Mummy on the Orient Express: 8/10
Flatline: 8/10
In the Forest of the Night: 4/10
Dark Water/Death in Heaven: 3/10

That kind of looks all over the place, but the enjoyable episodes were very enjoyable. Kill the Moon was definitely the highlight of the season for me, and it's the episode I'm most looking forward to rewatching at some point. Into the Dalek had flaws, but it did have some good moments. Time Heist and Mummy were both solidly plotted episodes. Not classics, but they were very enjoyable to watch. Flatline was very creative and enjoyable.

Capaldi was also great in the second half of the season. I wasn't feeling him too much in the first couple of episodes, but once he got going he was great.

tumblr_nee8mc8NsE1qc7yw7o1_r1_500.gif
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I use my girlfriend as a metric for what non-fandom "casual" Who watchers think of episodes and it's interesting when our opinions clash, but she whole-heartedly agreed with me Kill the Moon was one of the worst things she's ever seen from the series.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I suspect that Kill the Moon is going to end up with a more favorable consensus down the road then it has now. I suspect the opposite thing will happen for Deep Breath
 
You liked Kill the Moon? That's some uh... unusual opinions you have yourself there.

Kill the Moon was great. It was bold, creative and completely out there. That's what I want Doctor Who to be.

The science is completely bonkers, but the science in Doctor Who has been completely bonkers ever since it explained away a ship being bigger on the inside because it's 'dimensionally transcendent". Why not have the moon be an egg? It worked for the story and made it a really imaginative piece of television. Kill the Moon managed to be both spooky and surreal, and it didn't give any fucks about trying to appear to be 'cool' or conforming to people's expectations. It had some nice character moments running throughout the episode, too.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I suspect that Kill the Moon is going to end up with a more favorable consensus down the road then it has now. I suspect the opposite thing will happen for Deep Breath

I wouldn't say Deep Breath has a strong start, but it was a very solid episode towards the end and I certainly enjoyed it; I thought it was one of the better Doctor introductions. Certainly better than Eccleston's and Tennant's. Kill the Moon has no real excusable aspects to it, just a sorry mess. I really can't see my opinions on either changing much.
 

Dalek

Member
Kill the Moon was great. It was bold, creative and completely out there. That's what I want Doctor Who to be.

The science is completely bonkers, but the science in Doctor Who has been completely bonkers ever since it explained away a ship being bigger on the inside because it's 'dimensionally transcendent". Why not have the moon be an egg? It worked for the story and made it a really imaginative piece of television. Kill the Moon managed to be both spooky and surreal, and it didn't give any fucks about trying to appear to be 'cool' or conforming to people's expectations. It had some nice character moments running throughout the episode, too.

I don't usually agree with KuwabaraTheMan
a Zero for Listen? C'mon
But I did love Kill The Moon too. I could care less for the "Science Fact Checks"- I enjoyed the story.
 
I suspect that Kill the Moon is going to end up with a more favorable consensus down the road then it has now. I suspect the opposite thing will happen for Deep Breath

Deep Breath is like a bloated double album. If you cut it down to 45 minutes, I bet it would be a much better episode. There are a lot of great scenes there, but there's too much fluff.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I'd rather not score them, but if I had to rank them it would probably be something like
Mummy on the Orient Express
Flatline
Kill the Moon
Dark Water/Death in Heaven
The Caretaker
Robot of Sherwood (I liked this one, okay?)
Listen
Time Heist
Into the Dalek
Deep Breath
In the Forest of the Night

Really only the last two are ones that I'm sour on at all, Into the Dalek is a middling episode and its all uphill from there.
 

Dalek

Member
BAH. I'll do review too.

Deep Breath: 6/10
Into the Dalek: 8/10
Robot of Sherwood: 7/10 ( I thought it was genuinely funny)
Listen: 10/10 One of my favorite episodes of television ever. Come at me.
Time Heist: 7/10
The Caretaker: 7/10
Kill the Moon: 8/10
Mummy on the Orient Express: 8/10
Flatline: 10/10 (the "freshest" episode of Doctor Who I've seen since the series started)
In the Forest of the Night: 5/10
Dark Water/Death in Heaven: 7/10

Deep Breath is like a bloated double album. If you cut it down to 45 minutes, I bet it would be a much better episode. There are a lot of great scenes there, but there's too much fluff.

You're right. The pacing is all over the place in that episode.
 

A-V-B

Member
Kill the Moon was great. It was bold, creative and completely out there. That's what I want Doctor Who to be.

The science is completely bonkers, but the science in Doctor Who has been completely bonkers ever since it explained away a ship being bigger on the inside because it's 'dimensionally transcendent". Why not have the moon be an egg?

Because we literally know the moon is not an egg, and that we've been there and it's made of rock and not eggshells? We don't know how sentient time-traveling machines work, we can't say anything about that.

And also because they treated the episode as if it had no consequences for any of its disastrous cosmic events, save for Clara's one-episode wobble, which Mathieson handled much more maturely. And its themes were totally slapdash. And Courtney was a much worse character than she was in Caretaker. I can list more.

I mean, the writing went beyond just its acid-induced, medieval-angel-on-a-maypole understanding of reality. Science was simply the most obvious point.
 
You're right. The pacing is all over the place in that episode.

They got 75 minutes to establish a new Doctor, and far too much of it was wasted on medical exams, laconic, luxuriant shots of people sitting in chairs, and scenes that did nothing to advance the plot. I get that Moffat was trying to establish the new Doctor's tone by hitting the brakes, but he overcorrected.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
They got 75 minutes to establish a new Doctor, and far too much of it was wasted on medical exams, laconic, luxuriant shots of people sitting in chairs, and scenes that did nothing to advance the plot. I get that Moffat was trying to establish the new Doctor's tone by hitting the brakes, but he overcorrected.

I agree, with the additional comment that most of the first half of it feels like an engine with the accelerator and the brakes held down. Its so clearly holding itself back from diving into the interesting plot, the entire episode buckles under this tension
 

A-V-B

Member
They got 75 minutes to establish a new Doctor, and far too much of it was wasted on medical exams, laconic, luxuriant shots of people sitting in chairs, and scenes that did nothing to advance the plot. I get that Moffat was trying to establish the new Doctor's tone by hitting the brakes, but he overcorrected.

A lot of it just doesn't go anywhere. Half the story, I think, was Clara hanging out at Vastra's house having "tea-and-biscuits"-paced exposition humor.
 
Because we literally know the moon is not an egg, and that we've been there and it's made of rock and not eggshells? We don't know how sentient time-traveling machines work, we can't say anything about that.

And also because they treated the episode as if it had no consequences for any of its disastrous cosmic events, save for Clara's one-episode wobble, which Mathieson handled much more maturely. And its themes were totally slapdash. And Courtney was a much worse character than she was in Caretaker. I can list more.

I mean, the writing went beyond just its acid-induced, medieval-angel-on-a-maypole understanding of reality. Science was simply the most obvious point.

If we don't know about how sentient time-traveling machines work (hint: they don't exist), we also don't know how million year old eggs which look and feel exactly like the moon work (they also don't exist, but who cares?).

The consequences for Kill the Moon were all contained within Kill the Moon. There's no need for anything wider than that. Characters died, the world was put in peril, and people contemplated a terrible decision. We don't need every episode following it to be like 'hey, remember that time with the moon and then the thing happened?'. And I really disagree about Courtney. She was a fun character in The Caretaker, but she was much better in Kill the Moon. I think she really felt like a genuine person at times. She wanted to feel important, but she was overwhelmed by everything going on and just wanted to go home after seeing that. But when it came down to it, she stepped back in the action and realized that she wanted to be a part of the decision. This is a really good arc for a character to have over the course of an episode. Her character also worked pretty well for a metaphor for the people of Earth who had lost interest in space and finding out what was out there.

This is lyrical science fiction, the sort of which Doctor Who did back in the day, but has not really messed around with much in recent years (Gridlock kind of hit this mark a little bit). It's a majestic episode with some stunning imagery and amazing ideas, and it wraps it up with the faintest of science-fiction paints, but it's not concerned at all with the idea of if anything is scientifically possible. And that's just the way that Doctor Who should be. Warriors' Gate is full of things which are completely impossible, too, but that doesn't stop it from being brilliant.

In a sea of quirky characters, Victorian outfits, boring robots and spaceships, and worn out premises, Kill the Moon stands out apart from the crowd. It does things that are only possible to do in Doctor Who, and it doesn't care at all about what anyone else is doing.

Deep Breath is like a bloated double album. If you cut it down to 45 minutes, I bet it would be a much better episode. There are a lot of great scenes there, but there's too much fluff.

You could get down to that just by cutting out all the scenes where Vastra and Jenny talked about being married and the random and poorly executed physical 'comedy'.
 
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