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Ethically is buying a game better than emulating?

T

TI82

Banned
Note: this is assuming the title hasn't been re-released like Banjo Kazooie, PSN classics, and the Virtual Console.

Im talking about titles that will likely never be re-released. Games like Lost Vikings, Battletoads, Dragon Quest Monsters, etc.

I think they are basically the same thing. The actual creators aren't being reimbursed, you are only paying a scalper/collector/other person. Even the hardware you need to buy won't be reimbursing the creators.

Edit: title was meant to say buying a used game
 
A

Aeana

Member
Why don't you buy and then emulate? Emulation does not preclude ownership.
For the record, I don't have a major ethical/moral issue with piracy of old stuff you cannot feasibly pay for.
 
I

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
Are you attempting to justify emulation without owning the actual game? Meh. Doesn't work regardless. Its a slippery slope
 
S

Storm Kyleis

Member
By buying an old game you're paying someone who paid the creator in the first place, so yes.

The title is a bit misleading by the way.
 
D

Dreamwriter

Member
TI82 said:
Im talking about titles that will likely never be re-released. Games like Lost Vikings, Battletoads, Dragon Quest Monsters, etc.
Click to expand...
This is where your problem is. No game is likely NEVER re-released. So say you pirate the Battletoads ROM and emulate it, play the crap out of it. Next month it gets a surprise release on the Nintendo Virtual Console or some Classic Rare Collection or something. You aren't going to buy that, because you just played the crap outta the game already, you are no longer in a Battletoads mood. So the company lost out on your money because you pirated the game.
 
R

Rezae

Member
These threads always turn volatile. Personally if the game is offered nowhere else, I don't see a difference from say buying on eBay vs emulating. Either way the developer (who may not even be around and any license has probably passed through several layers of ownership) doesn't see the money.
 
C

CambriaRising

Member
Aeana said:
Why don't you buy and then emulate? Emulation does not preclude ownership.
For the record, I don't have a major ethical/moral issue with piracy of old stuff you cannot feasibly pay for.
Click to expand...

I stand in pretty much the same position here. Sometimes the only way games are preserved is through piracy.
 
Y

YianGaruga

Banned
Dreamwriter said:
This is where your problem is. No game is likely NEVER re-released. So say you pirate the Battletoads ROM and emulate it, play the crap out of it. Next month it gets a surprise release on the Nintendo Virtual Console or some Classic Rare Collection or something. You aren't going to buy that, because you just played the crap outta the game already. So the company lost out on your money,.
Click to expand...

Or you buy it for a high price from a collector and play it. Next month it is re-released and you won't buy it because you already own it. Company lost your money.
 
A

A Twisty Fluken

Member
Aeana said:
Why don't you buy and then emulate? Emulation does not preclude ownership.
For the record, I don't have a major ethical/moral issue with piracy of old stuff you cannot feasibly pay for.
Click to expand...

You mean stuff like old arcade boards and PC games that have been lost to time, I assume.

When infeasible = expensive I have a hard time telling much difference between that and general piracy. (I'm saying this without taking a moral/ethical stand on any of this btw)
 
A

antibolo

Banned
Well, there is always the possibility that the game will get a re-release in the future. If people have already pirated it due to lack of availability, then they will be less likely to buy it.

That probably happened with Earthbound. You could argue it's entirely Nintendo's fault for not having put it up earlier, but still.
 
U

Uncle Rupee

Banned
Lately I have been buying arcade compilations so that I own a legal copy of arcade games that weren't ported to consoles or available outside of these compilations. It makes me feel a lot better than just downloading and playing the games on MAME. Of course compilations only go so far and many arcade games were never released for any platform, so for those games you really don't have much choice if you want to experience them.
 
O

Of All Trades

Member
Dreamwriter said:
This is where your problem is. No game is likely NEVER re-released. So say you pirate the Battletoads ROM and emulate it, play the crap out of it. Next month it gets a surprise release on the Nintendo Virtual Console or some Classic Rare Collection or something. You aren't going to buy that, because you just played the crap outta the game already. So the company lost out on your money,.
Click to expand...
I'd hazard that less than 0.01% of all games have been re-released ever, and many of those rereleases were on systems that are now dead. And this doesn't touch on arcade.
 
6

60EffPeeEss

Member
What about peoples opinion on pirating a copy of a game you've bought in the past? Like say you bought a PS2 game years ago, no longer have your copy through loss/theft/damage, and its not up for download on PSN? Its unlikely you'll find many copies of old PS2 games, especially obscure ones, so what's your ethical outlook on this?
 
J

Jomjom

Banned
TI82 said:
Note: this is assuming the title hasn't been re-released like Banjo Kazooie, PSN classics, and the Virtual Console.

Im talking about titles that will likely never be re-released. Games like Lost Vikings, Battletoads, Dragon Quest Monsters, etc.

I think they are basically the same thing. The actual creators aren't being reimbursed, you are only paying a scalper/collector/other person. Even the hardware you need to buy won't be reimbursing the creators.

Edit: title was meant to say buying a used game
Click to expand...

Ethically, it's better because there's at least a chance that the person you paid for the used game turns around to funds a developer with that money. With piracy that's not a possibility.

Also there's of course the law. One option is completely ok, one is completely not.

60EffPeeEss said:
What about peoples opinion on pirating a copy of a game you've bought in the past? Like say you bought a PS2 game years ago, no longer have your copy through loss/theft/damage, and its not up for download on PSN? Its unlikely you'll find many copies of old PS2 games, especially obscure ones, so what's your ethical outlook on this?
Click to expand...

Well let's put it this way. If your car gets stolen or damaged to the point where it can't be driven anymore is it ok to just go and steal one just like it or should you go buy another used one?
 
B

Brashnir

Member
Aeana said:
Why don't you buy and then emulate? Emulation does not preclude ownership.
For the record, I don't have a major ethical/moral issue with piracy of old stuff you cannot feasibly pay for.
Click to expand...

I try to do this as much as possible. Emulation gives a better experience in many ways in the modern world of digital displays, etc - but I like maintaining a collection of retro games and consoles as well, so I can emulate and play as guilt-free as possible.
 
A

Aeana

Member
A Twisty Fluken said:
You mean stuff like old arcade boards and PC games that have been lost to time, I assume.

When infeasible = expensive I have a hard time telling much difference between that and general piracy. (I'm saying this without taking a moral/ethical stand on any of this btw)
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not interested in a discussion on legality because the legality is fairly clear, depending on where you live. When your choices are "pay this guy $1000 for something he paid $50 for" and piracy and there is nothing else, I'm not gonna look down on the person who chooses to go the free way. That's my moral standpoint. Personally, I love to own the things, but that's not everyone.
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
Inuhanyou said:
Are you attempting to justify emulation without owning the actual game? Meh. Doesn't work regardless. Its a slippery slope
Click to expand...
That is a logical fallacy sir. Playing a 30 year old game for free isn't gonna make you start robbing banks.

But anyway, I never really thought about it like that. I guess it's the principal of the thing more than anything else.
 
M

Mr-Joker

Banned
I am willing to admit that I emulated Mega Man 2 and loved it so much that I went and brought it when it got released on the Wii U virtual console.
 
S

SatoAilDarko

Member
See the problem with emulating to me is that once that door is opened you have to stop yourself from going further. Let's say I emulate a rare game. After I see how easy and quick it is will I go back and pay $8 for SNES Virtual Console games when I could get every game for free?

I personally don't emulate at all unless it's a weird situation where I need to apply a translation patch to an older game. I also get a physical copy of the game from Japan.

Also if a rare game eventually does get rereleased and you solely emulated it before I feel you should buy the rerelease. That what I plan to do if any weird game came out.
 
E

endtropy

Neo Member
Also consider this - Is the game no longer for purchase as first sale? If the only thing that exists is the "re-sell" of a used product your not doing the producer any good by buying it in that second hand market either. I'm not saying "carte blanche" that piracy is okay if they no longer produce or make the product for sale, I'm just saying anyone who says you should go buy a used copy may be a bit misguided in how that does anything for the situation.

Yes, you will own a legal copy (1st sale doctrine in the US at least) but none of that revenue will make it's way to the developer, producer, etc. I point this out only to bring attention to how multifaceted the issue is.

1. Are you concerned about legal ownership for yourself
2. Are you concerned about compensating content creators
3. Some combination of 1 and 2?

This kind of opens up the pandoras box of should used game sales continue, games as service/license vs product/good. etc. etc. etc. etc.

edited to add this - Some people are saying buying a used company enables the original owner (seller) to then *potentially* buy more product themselves.. thats a bit of an odd bird justification though because simply NOT buying that used copy (when 1st sale is no longer available) makes the buyers resources just as available for additional purchases, so thats kind of a moot point in my opinion. They could just as easily by groceries or crack rock with that money.
 
J

jerry1594

Member
Dreamwriter said:
This is where your problem is. No game is likely NEVER re-released. So say you pirate the Battletoads ROM and emulate it, play the crap out of it. Next month it gets a surprise release on the Nintendo Virtual Console or some Classic Rare Collection or something. You aren't going to buy that, because you just played the crap outta the game already, you are no longer in a Battletoads mood. So the company lost out on your money because you pirated the game.
Click to expand...
D&D duology? Red Earth? I don't think those are ever coming back.
 
R

realalbedo

Banned
What about playing game without owning the system? Like buying Wii discs for Dolphin, even if you never owned Wii. Is that ok thing to do?
 
C

chronic_archaic

Member
Arguably those games are abandonware so I think it's fine. I'm not going to argue the morals of piracy, as it's up to the player, but in this case I would think everyone could agree it's not an issue.
 
6

60EffPeeEss

Member
Jomjom said:
Well let's put it this way. If your car gets stolen or damaged to the point where it can't be driven anymore is it ok to just go and steal one just like it or should you go buy another used one?
Click to expand...

Well when you buy a car, you buy the physical object, but with a game you buy a license to use it. Do you forfeit that license through theft, loss or damage? You're legally allowed to make back-ups for your own personal use, remember.
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
60EffPeeEss said:
What about peoples opinion on pirating a copy of a game you've bought in the past? Like say you bought a PS2 game years ago, no longer have your copy through loss/theft/damage, and its not up for download on PSN? Its unlikely you'll find many copies of old PS2 games, especially obscure ones, so what's your ethical outlook on this?
Click to expand...

If there's a way to purchase the game without jumping through some massive hoops like paying $90k for the one remaining copy, it's immoral/unethical to not pay. Most PS2 games can still be bought via Amazon, ebay, and retro game shops. Therefore, you should purchase the games via those means.
 
TheMan

TheMan

Member
ethically i see no problem as long as the game isn't in print and hasn't been re-released. If there is no way to actually reward the developers for the game they made, i don't see I would be obliged to pay some collector a ton of money for something they had no hand in creating.

legal issues are another story.
 
Dsyndrome

Dsyndrome

Member
Such a gray area. Run into this with old 90's adventure games, stuff like Freddy Pharkas: Frontier Pharmacist or Dark Side of the Moon. Thankfully haven't run into a situation where I can't buy the game at all, I'd say buying used is the more ethical, then emulate it. Lots of people did that with Type 0.
 
autoduelist

autoduelist

Member
Jomjom said:
Well let's put it this way. If your car gets stolen or damaged to the point where it can't be driven anymore is it ok to just go and steal one just like it or should you go buy another used one?
Click to expand...

Please stop hurting my head with godawful analogies that do not even begin to recognize the differences between digital and physical goods.
 
L

letaint

Banned
What if EA/Ubi or the like published a new IP titled "Pirate Me!", and priced this game (that received rave reviews) at thousands of dollars?
It's actually on shelves at your local stores at this absurd price...
Is morality sensitive to price?
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
letaint said:
What if EA/Ubi or the like published a new IP titled "Pirate Me!", and priced this game (that received rave reviews) at thousands of dollars?
It's actually on shelves at your local stores at this absurd price...
Is morality sensitive to price?
Click to expand...

If it's available from the actual developer at that price, it's immoral/unethical to pirate.

However, when purchasing from third parties, ethics and morals can be price sensitive.
 
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