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[Synth]

MS got avatars, which at the time I thought was a realisation of Jallards "snow crash" vision for XBL. What Rare developed instead was a bunch of weird dolls you could buy virtual clothes for and couldn't turn off or get rid of.

They also got Kinect Sports... which probably made a good amount of that money back tbh.

 

[Celine]

No, Microsoft purchased Rare for $375 million but Nintendo only owned 49% of it, the Stamper brothers got the other 51%.

Indeed.
Here is what I think happened:

SB: Stamper bros
N: Nintendo
M: Microsoft

SB: *to themselves* Mmmh our company is at an all time high and Nintendo already own 49% of our shares.
Maybe we should sell all our remaining share until the prices are high.

*enters Nintendo*

SB: Hey buddy we want to sell all our remaining shares (51%) to you (49%).
We sure grow big from the first time you invested in us back in 1995 (25% for roughly $25M).
How about $100M for our 51%?
N: *looks at the recent Rare game sales and what IPs brought in the most profits*
I don't know pal it doesn't seem worth to us.
Can't we just stay as we are now?
SB: We *really* want to sell!
N: OK, search for a suitable buyer and we can discuss further the details.

*enters Microsoft*

M: So I've heard you are up for sale.
For coincidence we are interested to expand our gaming portfolio...
SB: Sure we would be a perfect match for your expansion.
Have you seen how much our games sold on SNES and N64?
We are basically the western Nintendo!
Soooo... how much?
M:How about $375M?
SB: *poker face* Might do it, let's first talk some details with out buddy Nintendo.

*enters Nintendo*

SB: So we got a suitable buyer, it's Microsoft.
How about we buy your 49% shares for $100M and split our cross owned IPs?
N: Might work. Of course our legacy IPs (the ones which granted the majority of your sales) go back to us, you can have the rest (with far lower sales potential).
Right?
SB: Sure my dear all you want, deal done (we only care to cash in the most money we can).

*enters Microsoft*

SB: Hi Microsoft, we now own 100% of Rare and can sell the company to you.
We only have Banjo, Perfect Dark and Conker but it's the same really...
M: Sure no problem (we are at the same time damaging our direct rival and getting their best developer).
You will be our brightest first party developer.
Here the check.

SB:

Rest is history.

 

[-Silver-]

Possibly, but Nintendo never really bothered to replace them. They've had years to realise that they need good western support but they've not really done a whole lot.

 

[Steverulez]

They also got Kinect Sports... which probably made a good amount of that money back tbh.

Whilst Rivals didn't do well, it is worth saying again when you look at Rare with Microsoft that avatars did extremely well for them and Kinect Sports sold 9 million units between 1 and 2... combine that with PDZ and Kameo being important launch titles, I think its clear that just based on the more casual stuff that it has worked out eventually for Microsoft, even if it hasn't generally gone how they wanted it too.

 

[beril]

However, RARE was only one of the constituents affected by Iwata's restructuring. RARE, Left Field Productions, and Silicon Knights were all dropped as Nintendo affiliated studios. Nintendo also ended its relationship with Factor 5 who was not only developing system tools for Nintendo platforms, but tried to pitch a Pilotwings and Kid Icarus prototype. Nintendo Software Technology took a serious hit with Project Hammer being cancelled "because it was too core" and lost about half its staff. Nintendo of America as an autonomous production unit was relieved of their duties, and all their development contacts alongside it.

Left field made one game with Nintendo, didn't seem like a very close relationship, and can you really blame them for passing on Too Human?
They've more than made for it up with it Monster Games, Next Level Games and Retro

 

[Metallix87]

Oh wow, about Starfox is that true? That's very telling and explained a lot.

As I said, there's no proof, but after researching the issue, it's the most likely reason for it to happen. Had Nintendo not re-branded it, they would be giving Microsoft not only a new IP, but also a game that could potentially be ported or remade for their Xbox platform.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

The Rare n64 games are on point.

 

[Prine]

E3 can't come soon enough, really excited tot see what Rare are up to, and most importantly Banjo 3, with Rare's next gen visuals. Mouth is foaming as I finishing writing this.

 

[NewOrder79]

I thought Perfect Dark Zero, Kameo, Viva Piñata and B&K Nuts and Bolts were all fantastic.

 

[Sponge]

They also got Kinect Sports... which probably made a good amount of that money back tbh.

Very true. I think the best think that came out of this buyout was the recent return of Killer Instinct. I doubt Killer Instinct would be as good if Rare still had control. Like you said, it's better we have people who know how fighting games work making the game instead of Rare's jack of all trade's work style.

I think my only complaint would be that I wish Microsoft would give Iron Galaxy more of a budget to work with. What they are doing with the game looks so good but sometimes you call tell they are working off a smaller budget. The way they update the game has proven to be interesting though. Getting characters every month is a neat business model.

 

[casiopao]

I think one of the biggest problems hindering Nintendo's first-party production, is that they are still working off an insular domestic model established in the 1970s. Microsoft Game Studios and Sony Computer Entertainment have the luxury of being more contemporary publishers and very open to the idea of embracing a global studio network.

Nintendo does not want a global studio network. Nintendo has about 80% of its total R&D work force in Kyoto, Japan. How stifling is that? Even Nintendo's expanded Tokyo work force is still abysmally small, and they refuse to venture out and start a Nintendo Studios London or Nintendo Studios Sydney. They want the illusion that all their games come from Kyoto and more specifically "Shigeru Miyamoto". I think it is a broken model that will continue to hurt them as the industry progresses forward.

This is probably Iwata biggest mistake if u ask me. He moved back to JP after Wii and DS success by focusing a lot on growing their main company but they end killing their western support by a lot.T_T

If only they still have NST and tries to further improve them into having the same quality as the one in JP, they are going to be on better position here.

 

[zer0das]

Nintendo made out like bandits given the situation.

 

[Peltz]

I have earned the right to call DK64 junk. It's well made in the same way stinky cheese is well made. But it still really, really stinks. I gave this game 32 hours of my life and it spit in my face.

Lol. I spent only 3 hours with it before moving on. I should really check out Banjo though.

Diddy Kong Racing was the one time I really fell in love with a Rare game. I am currently playing through DKC on my SNES and am having some VERY mixed feelings about it. It's rather milquetoast in terms of variety but the challenge is very stiff and tight and somewhat appealing. I wish there were more mechanics and variety to it.

I eventually plan on playing through all of the Nintendo-published Rare games based on their stellar reputation during the era. But I'm still really having trouble grasping their appeal. Even Golden Eye failed to capture me in the 90s... I'm going to continue trying to get through their games.

 

[injurai]

I thought they sold them because they began falling apart as talent left. It was a good move from my memory.

 

[xandaca]

Would love to play GoldenEye, perfect dark and jet force Gemini with wiimote pointer...

Any shooting game is immediately improved by the pointer, but JFG would be positively godly with it. The speed and precision of the Wiimote would be a godsend in that kind of arcadey shooter.

 

[Celine]

Lol. I spent only 3 hours with it before moving on. I should really check out Banjo though.

Diddy Kong Racing was the one time I really fell in love with a Rare game. I am currently playing through DKC on my SNES and am having some VERY mixed feelings about it. It's rather milquetoast in terms of variety but the challenge is very stiff and tight and somewhat appealing. I wish there were more mechanics and variety to it.

I eventually plan on playing through all of the Nintendo-published Rare games based on their stellar reputation during the era. But I'm still really having trouble grasping their appeal. Even Golden Eye failed to capture me in the 90s... I'm going to continue trying to get through their games.

Banjo 1 can genuinely aim for first spot in my Top 3 3D Platform games that generation.
Mind you it and Mario 64 have different strengths (the former have more adventure elements while the latter is more action oriented).
Don't forget to check Blast Corps, one of the more atypical Rare game under Nintendo.

 

[LukeTim]

I think the belief that Rare were on some kind of irreparable downward spiral on the eve of their transfer to Microsoft is a ridiculous notion. The early wave of software for the Xbox 360 was diverse, creative and reminiscent of some truly beautiful ideas. Controversial as it may be, I think there are excellent grounds to argue games like Viva Piñata as candidates for game of the generation. Even ‘disappointments’ such as Perfect Dark Zero were colossally underrated, for a launch tittle the depth of that game stands far and beyond many shooters of that generation.

Perfect Dark Zero was a better game than both Halo 4 and Killzone 2, try and argue otherwise.

So what went wrong? Microsoft.

It’s simple really, and it fits the narrative very well. Rare were an absolute powerhouse under Nintendo. The scope of their projects, the diversity of the games they produced and speed at which they delivered them is even to this day unlike anything that has been seen in this industry.

1996-2000



N64:

• Goldeneye

• Diddy Kong Racing

• Banjo Kazooie
• 
Jet Force Gemini
• 
Blast Corps
• 
Killer Instinct Gold

• Perfect Dark

• Mickey’s Speedway U.S.A

• Banjo Tooie

Game Boy:



• Donkey Kong Land III

• Conker’s Pocket Tales

• Mickey’s Racing Adventure

• Dinky Kong & Dixie Kong
• 
Donkey Kong Country

• Perfect Dark

Look at that list, holy fucking shit. Nine top tier console games and six handheld games in four years, that’s nearly four fucking games per year. First person shooters, third person shooters, platformers, fighting games, racing games, action games. To this day I still don’t really know how they did it. They had under two hundred people working for them. It’s insanity. Do you think Nintendo misses that output? They absolutely do, and anyone who suggests that Retro Studios fills that void is analytically incompetent. Even one Rare quality Wii U & 3DS title per year would be a huge boost for Nintendo’s exclusive software, most importantly because Rare offered diversity outside of Nintendo’s traditional games. For this reason the studios complemented each other beautifully, and stand as the greatest partnership in this industry’s history.

Would Rare have continued to thrive under Nintendo? Yes.

Nintendo, unlike Microsoft. Do not have a history of ruining studios. Nintendo have quite the opposite effect with studios in this industry and almost seem to have a multiplier effect on quality. We have seen time and time again that gimp studios such as Silicon Knights, Arika, Retro Studios, Next Level Games and Brownie Brown have all delivered titles well and beyond what they reasonably have the capacity to do independently. Were the Stamper brothers to stick with Nintendo, it is incredibly unlikely that Rare would be the shadow that they are today.

So wait, why is it Microsoft’s fault?

Rare’s output took a nosedive under Microsoft. Since their new partnership beginning in 2002, right up until the 360’s release in 2005, Rare managed to deliver six Game Boy Advance titles under THQ and Nintendo, yet only two Xbox games under Microsoft; Reject title ‘Grabbed by the Ghoulies’ and useless remake ‘Conker: Live and Reloaded’. It was immediately clear that the studio lacked direction under Microsoft.

Their first wave of software arrived in 2005 and consisted of Kameo, Perfect Dark Zero and Viva Piñata, good games which were creatively promising. Yet it was clear that Rare’s repertoire of intellectual property did not complement their new audience. Early Microsoft targeted older gamers in their twenties and thirties, Rare’s software primarily targeted kids, teens and occasionally young adults. Rare’s software had no room to breathe amongst their new audience and as a result sales were not excellent. What was even worse was that the titles that even sold reasonably well such as Perfect Dark, were pushed aside presumably in favour of IP such as Halo.

Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts was the last traditional title to be released under Microsoft and it was met with mixed reception. Not even given the chance to build their audience, Rare’s IP very quickly took a backseat in favour of being forced to follow Nintendo’s new direction into fitness. Large numbers of staff were laid off, key people departed and soon only Kinect titles were produced under Rare. With a new Killer Instinct title on Xbox One not even being developed by Rare themselves, it has reached the stage where it is suspect as to whether the studio is capable at developing even small scale traditional titles.
Microsoft failed to sustain Rare’s intense development cycle, they failed to support their intellectual property and ultimately failed to support the talent which thrived there. Despite four good games, Microsoft gave the studio virtually zero chance to prove themselves further and essentially nullified the talent of the studio.

People will defend Microsoft, but there is a clear history of poor management.

• FASA
• 
Ensemble
• 
343i

• Black Tusk

• Victoria

This is simply another which fits what is at this stage, a very obvious narrative.

 

[Calamari41]

This happened around the same time Nintendo was a step away from buying Bandai-Namco. If that acquisition hadn't been stopped by the Japanese government, this wouldn't even be an issue.

Rare was amazing during the N64 years, but come on. Take every Bamco release from this time period to today away from Sony and MS and put it exclusively on Nintendo platforms, and tell me you wouldn't trade Rare for that.

 

[Sponge]

I thought they sold them because they began falling apart as talent left. It was a good move from my memory.

Not really. A lot of the Goldeneye team had left to form Free Radical but all the other teams within Rare were pretty much the same. Viva Pinata was one of Rare's best games. They still had plenty of talent until Microsoft restructured to the studio after Nuts & Bolts flopped.

 

[Sesuadra]

Viva Pinata was one of Rare's bests games.

Loved Viva Pinata. Sad that we won't get a xbox one viva pinata..

 

[A Link to the Past]

Donkey Kong 64, Mickeys Highway and Starfox Adventure where games that where not that good

This doesn't stand to reason. Sure, Mickey wasn't a solid game, but DK64 sold amazingly well and rated amazingly well.

 

[djtiesto]

Since when? I think everyone agrees that the loss of Western support in the Gamecube era hurt Nintendo greatly.

I sure don't. Preferred the 3rd party libraries of GC and Wii to N64 any day of the week. Always felt Rare was overrated too.

 

[Oddduck]

I never understood the idea that Rare was on some downward spiral in quality before they left Nintendo.

Perfect Dark (the year 2000) was critically acclaimed and sold over 3 million units.
Conker's Bad Fur Day (2001) was critically acclaimed. IGN gave it a 9.9 out of 10 score.
Star Fox Adventures (2002) has an 82 Metacritic score (out of 39 critics).

Is the whole "downward spiral" thing just a personal opinion of some people?

 

[A Link to the Past]

I never understood the idea that Rare was on some downward spiral in quality before they left Nintendo.

Perfect Dark (the year 2000) was critically acclaimed and sold over 3 million units.
Conker's Bad Fur Day (2001) was critically acclaimed. IGN gave it a 9.9 out of 10 score.
Star Fox Adventures (2002) has an 82 Metacritic score (out of 39 critics).

Is the whole "downward spiral" thing just a personal opinion of some people?

Exactly. Why does Nintendo get to make a divisive title like Luigi's Mansion and have to have the quality of their company judged? Shit, until Galaxy, the only game that scored in line with Perfect Dark was Metroid Prime, which sold like 1 million fewer copies to boot.

 

[Oddduck]

Exactly. Why does Nintendo get to make a divisive title like Luigi's Mansion and have to have the quality of their company judged? Shit, until Galaxy, the only game that scored in line with Perfect Dark was Metroid Prime, which sold like 1 million fewer copies to boot.

It also amazes me how some people try so hard to pretend that Viva Pinata was not critically acclaimed.

It scored an 84 rating on Metacritic by 65 professional critics.

 

[hatchx]

I never understood the idea that Rare was on some downward spiral in quality before they left Nintendo.

Perfect Dark (the year 2000) was critically acclaimed and sold over 3 million units.
Conker's Bad Fur Day (2001) was critically acclaimed. IGN gave it a 9.9 out of 10 score.
Star Fox Adventures (2002) has an 82 Metacritic score (out of 39 critics).

Is the whole "downward spiral" thing just a personal opinion of some people?

It seems the 'downward spiral' happened primarily with their lack of titles on GameCube and 90% of the title they released since the sale.

I don't think anyone is arguing their downward spiral began anytime during N64 development.

 

[KojiKnight]

It also amazes me how some people try so hard to pretend that Viva Pinata was not critically acclaimed.

It scored an 84 rating on Metacritic by 65 professional critics.

Metacritic is not the end all be all, especially when sales still didn't compare to their other works.

 

[Peltz]

As I said, there's no proof, but after researching the issue, it's the most likely reason for it to happen. Had Nintendo not re-branded it, they would be giving Microsoft not only a new IP, but also a game that could potentially be ported or remade for their Xbox platform.

When did that rebranding occur? I thought it was fairly early on when the project switched from N64 to GCN.

 

[A Link to the Past]

It seems the 'downward spiral' happened primarily with their lack of titles on GameCube and 90% of the title they released since the sale.

I don't think anyone is arguing their downward spiral began anytime during N64 development.

Someone specifically argued that their last few years of life w/ Nintendo was the downward spiral, and another person cited only DK64, Mickey, and SFA to show that they had taken a downward spiral.

And as for Xbox, of course quality output was reduced, Microsoft handled the company like trash and had no idea how to do anything. If you look at Retro Studios, you see a lot of what happened with MS - Nintendo didn't know how to manage Retro. Of course, this didn't lead to bad games like it did with MS, but it can't be denied that a similar loss of talent didn't occur at Retro. The only difference is that Nintendo saw fit to replace the talent that left quickly and efficiently.

 

[Synth]

Metacritic is not the end all be all, especially when sales still didn't compare to their other works.

And sales aren't the end all be all, especially when most of Nintendo's current output get destroyed in sales by stuff like Watch_Dogs.

 

[Peltz]

Exactly. Why does Nintendo get to make a divisive title like Luigi's Mansion and have to have the quality of their company judged? Shit, until Galaxy, the only game that scored in line with Perfect Dark was Metroid Prime, which sold like 1 million fewer copies to boot.

Because Luigi's Mansion launched along with Pikmin, Wave Race Blue Storm, and Super Smash Bros. Melee (within a month or so). It was surrounded by quality Nintendo games from the start and most people considered it to be more of a short tech demo-ish game to hold us over until the "true" Mario game came along for the system.

I actually thought Luigi's Mansion was pretty cool. The sequel certainly took the concept to great heights. It's hard to say Nintendo "lost it's way" when Smash Bros. Melee came out (and yes, I realize HAL isn't truly owned by Nintendo, but you get my drift).

 

[A Link to the Past]

And sales aren't the end all be all, especially when most of Nintendo's current output get destroyed in sales by stuff like Watch_Dogs.

*nods* If sales are anything to go by, Metroid Prime was a massive flop, considering how well-received it was. A good majority of games that Nintendo made that were 90+ in ratings on Metacritic outsold Metroid Prime.

Because Luigi's Mansion launched along with Pikmin, Wave Race Blue Storm, and Super Smash Bros. Melee (within a month or so). It was surrounded by quality Nintendo games from the start and most people considered it to be more of a short tech demo-ish game to hold us over until the "true" Mario game came along for the system.

I actually thought Luigi's Mansion was pretty cool. The sequel certainly took the concept to great heights. It's hard to say Nintendo "lost it's way" when Smash Bros. Melee came out (and yes, I realize HAL isn't truly owned by Nintendo, but you get my drift).

And similarly, the only reason anyone thinks Rare lost its way at any point pre-sale was SFA, whereas Nintendo doesn't have that at all. But I mean, let's talk 2002. Wind Waker - an awesome game, but still pretty divisive. Super Mario Sunshine even more so - it has tons of padding, and the bullshit collectathon crap is honestly worse than anything in DK64.

Also Wave Race: Blue Storm scored like 12 points lower than Wave Race 64 so

 

[Man God]

The real talent drain isn't evident until right before the sale.

Starfox Adventures is fine. Grabbed by the Ghoulies is the real start of the downturn and then the middling remake of Conkers...somehow more censored and with worse multiplayer in the move from N64 to XBOX?

PDZero was rushed, unbelievable as it sounds for a game worked on for five years straight.

Kameo is fine but clearly a game designed for Nintendo's audience. VP and its sequel are also clearly Nintendo games on the 360, and represent Rare's best effort since the sale. Nuts and Bolts is dreadful, lacking vision and direction and clearly not what anyone really wanted.

 

[Oddduck]

Metacritic is not the end all be all, especially when sales still didn't compare to their other works.

There are many Nintendo franchises that don't compare to Mario and Zelda in sales.

Does that mean we should consider the Pikmin series to be a failure because it didn't do Mario/Zelda sales?

If sales are the end all be all, then was Kinect Sports a success for Rare during the Xbox 360 years?

 

[Starwolf_UK]

While the output was consistent on the N64 don't fool yourselves into think it was all bang on time and stress free. Conker vanished off the face of the earth then got a South Park styled modification. Likewise Perfect Dark and Jet Force Gemini had some delays too (although for the latter the character designs were the cause, I remember reading that in a magazine so no idea if true).

That is forgetting Goldeneye which yeah film tie in coming out way after the film and not being the DKC styled 2D platformer Nintendo probably had in mind.

I never understood the idea that Rare was on some downward spiral in quality before they left Nintendo.

Perfect Dark (the year 2000) was critically acclaimed and sold over 3 million units.
Conker's Bad Fur Day (2001) was critically acclaimed. IGN gave it a 9.9 out of 10 score.
Star Fox Adventures (2002) has an 82 Metacritic score (out of 39 critics).

Is the whole "downward spiral" thing just a personal opinion of some people?

Perhaps it is less of spiral and more of a perceived decline as in nobody could really exceed the heights some of those games were.

Still to throw the whole personal opinion thing. The impression I got regarding Micky's Speedway Racing and Banjo-Tooie is they were inferior versions of DKR and Banjo Kazooie.

A gradual drop followed by a sharp decline are what you would expect from so much talent bleeding out of the studio.

 

[Synth]

There are many Nintendo franchises that don't compare to Mario and Zelda in sales.

Does that mean we should consider the Pikmin series to be a failure because it didn't do Mario/Zelda sales?

If sales are the end all be all, then was Kinect Sports a success for Rare during the Xbox 360 years?

Even better, contrast the sales of Mario Kart 8 with Mario Kart Wii. Nintendo must have fallen off hard.

 

[Empty]

probably not. i think in a counter-factual history where rare made more goldeneye and perfect dark style games that appealed to ps2 and xbox1 gamers and could be as critically acclaimed as halo: ce it would help, but the kind of games rare were making for the gamecube were starfox adventures and kameo. which i don't think are very distinctive from what nintendo's first party was doing and wouldn't have mattered much.

 

[A Link to the Past]

While the output was consistent on the N64 don't fool yourselves into think it was all bang on time and stress free. Conker vanished off the face of the earth then got a South Park styled modification. Likewise Perfect Dark and Jet Force Gemini had some delays too (although for the latter the character designs were the cause, I remember reading that in a magazine so no idea if true).

That is forgetting Goldeneye which yeah film tie in coming out way after the film and not being the DKC styled 2D platformer Nintendo probably had in mind.


Perhaps it is less of spiral and more of a perceived decline as in nobody could really exceed the heights some of those games were.

Still to throw the whole personal opinion thing. The impression I got regarding Micky's Speedway Racing and Banjo-Tooie is they were inferior versions of DKR and Banjo Kazooie.

A gradual drop followed by a sharp decline are what you would expect from so much talent bleeding out of the studio.

I think most people considered Banjo-Tooie inferior, but cmon, it rated only two points less than Banjo-Kazooie. It was a very well-loved game.

 

[Man God]

probably not. i think in a counter-factual history where rare made more goldeneye and perfect dark style games that appealed to ps2 and xbox1 gamers and could be as critically acclaimed as halo: ce it would help, but the kind of games rare were making for the gamecube were starfox adventures and kameo. which i don't think are very distinctive from what nintendo's first party was doing and wouldn't have mattered much.

Even in a world where Free Radical isn't formed and Nintendo buys rare I don't see PD Zero lighting up the charts for the still tagged as a kiddy GCN console. Halo will still rule the generation.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Even in a world where Free Radical isn't formed and Nintendo buys rare I don't see PD Zero lighting up the charts for the still tagged as a kiddy GCN console. Halo will still rule the generation.

One of the issues was that even though the GameCube looked like a purse, people complained about the gamez. Wind Waker and Sunshine definitely didn't help with that. As much as I prefer Wind Waker in virtually every way to Twilight Princess, from a business POV, TP could have saved the GameCube, and so would PD0.

 

[gimmmick]

Retro more than filled the western void.

Nintendo hasn't has had a great exclusive FPS title since perfect dark :\

 

[Synth]

One of the issues was that even though the GameCube looked like a purse, people complained about the gamez. Wind Waker and Sunshine definitely didn't help with that. As much as I prefer Wind Waker in virtually every way to Twilight Princess, from a business POV, TP could have saved the GameCube, and so would PD0.

I don't think the Gamecube's image could really be altered by one or two games. Stuff like Resident Evil, Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime made pretty much no difference, because in the end they were still drowned out by Nintendo's typical offerings.

I also think that it's extremely unlikely that any follow up for Perfect Dark would have been able to rival Halo. Neither Perfect Dark Zero or anything in the Timesplitters series compares well at all. You'd have to be assuming that they would magically gain the ability to create a game that nobody that was part of the team has demonstrated that they were capable of doing.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I don't think the Gamecube's image could really be altered by one or two games. Stuff like Resident Evil, Eternal Darkness and Metroid Prime made pretty much no difference, because in the end they were still drowned out by Nintendo's typical offerings.

I also think that it's extremely unlikely that any follow up for Perfect Dark would have been able to rival Halo. Neither Perfect Dark Zero or anything in the Timesplitters series compares well at all. You'd have to be assuming that they would magically gain the ability to create a game that nobody that was part of the team has demonstrated that they were capable of doing.

Let's really be honest though, Zelda was a huge catalyst in the console's kiddy image. A big thing with it was not only that it was very cartoonish - more cartoonish than any Zelda game before it - but also because of the bait-and-switch with Space World.

 

[Synth]

Let's really be honest though, Zelda was a huge catalyst in the console's kiddy image. A big thing with it was not only that it was very cartoonish - more cartoonish than any Zelda game before it - but also because of the bait-and-switch with Space World.

Maybe... although from my experience they'd pretty much cemented that image long before with the N64 (even starting as far back as the SNES with Mortal Kombat). The N64 was always the family/party machine, despite (and even somewhat due) to the popularity of GoldenEye. The Playstation (and to a lesser extent the Saturn) were always portrayed as being more adult oriented. This was an issue far larger than one game at the point of the Gamecube... and if anything, Rare in general didn't help their cause with the majority of their output.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Maybe... although from my experience they'd pretty much cemented that image long before with the N64 (even starting as far back as the SNES with Mortal Kombat). The N64 was always the family/party machine, despite (and even somewhat due) to the popularity of GoldenEye. The Playstation (and to a lesser extent the Saturn) were always portrayed as being more adult oriented. This was an issue far larger than one game at the point of the Gamecube... and if anything, Rare in general didn't help their cause with the majority of their output.

It was like that in some small way, but GoldenEye was a huge boon for it in that if people said it was kiddy, the counter to that was to say that it had games like Turok, GoldenEye, and Perfect Dark, whereas its competitors really didn't do much with FPS games.

 

[Aselith]

Boo, PDZ's multiplayer was great.

It was bog standard arena deathmatch. Great lmao

 

[Synth]

It was like that in some small way, but GoldenEye was a huge boon for it in that if people said it was kiddy, the counter to that was to say that it had games like Turok, GoldenEye, and Perfect Dark, whereas its competitors really didn't do much with FPS games.

Yea, that's somewhat true. The N64 was always the FPS deathmatch console in our house (GoldenEye. Turok 2 and Quake 2 to be precise). A similar approach wouldn't have worked the following generation though when everyone had analog sticks by default (two in fact). Especially with the stupid C-Stick that Nintendo opted for instead.

It was bog standard arena deathmatch. Great lmao

So was Halo and the original Perfect Dark...

PDZ at least had that Counter Strike inspired mode as well.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Yea, that's somewhat true. The N64 was always the FPS deathmatch console in our house (GoldenEye. Turok 2 and Quake 2 to be precise). A similar approach wouldn't have worked the following generation though when everyone had analog sticks by default (two in fact). Especially with the stupid C-Stick that Nintendo opted for instead.

While the C-Stick was not ideal for FPS games, on an unrelated tangent, it was pretty good for a casual approach. I find that the GC controller worked really well with casual or otherwise lapsed gamers. Fingers rest comfortably on the L and R buttons, Z button - while awkward - was immediately identifiable, A button and B button's design made it obvious which was select and which was cancel, and the C-Stick stood out from the Analog Stick, so people would better understand that its functions were different. I'd personally make it bigger, but...

 

[Toxi]

Perfect Dark Zero was a better game than both Halo 4 and Killzone 2, try and argue otherwise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucVqp7BlsRk

 

[Aselith]

Yea, that's somewhat true. The N64 was always the FPS deathmatch console in our house (GoldenEye. Turok 2 and Quake 2 to be precise). A similar approach wouldn't have worked the following generation though when everyone had analog sticks by default (two in fact). Especially with the stupid C-Stick that Nintendo opted for instead.



So was Halo and the original Perfect Dark...

PDZ at least had that Counter Strike inspired mode as well.

Original Perfect Dark was kind of terrible, I hated it. Halo is notable for the improved console controls the game felt really, really good to play whereas other shooters were fairly clunky. PDZ had nothing really notable about it.