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Nintendo selling Rare: in hindsight it hurt more than we think
- Thread starter Alex_Mexico
- Start date
Alex_Mexico
Member
I think SFA was a good game despite the obvious franchise shoehorn but I won't defend it.
I will, however, tell you you're factually incorrect at saying it all went down after DK64. Are you forgetting about the excellent, multi-million seller, and better-than-Goldeneye-in-every-way Perfect Dark in 2000? Or the critical darling (but commercial failure for reasons beyond Rare's control) Conker's BFD in 2001? Rare had the ball rolling and firmly in grasp all the way until the death of the N64!
I don't know. The Gamecube failed because of very little support outside of Nintendo's own 1st party developers and a few 3rd party deals. Rare could have really helped them out that gen.
Alex_Mexico
Member
That last part is pure speculation isn't it? Or do we have proof that was the reason? It does make a lot of sense, though. One less IP that MS can take from Rare.
Metallix87
Member
Rare's output that gen:
- Star Fox Adventures
- Grabbed by the Ghoulies
- Conker: Live & Reloaded
Kameo: Elements of Power, Viva Piñata, and Perfect Dark Zero were all in the works, but didn't make it out until the following gen.
Gurgelhals
Member
IIRC, Nintendo didn't think much of Conker. I'm not saying that they were right, but I can kind of understand their point of view there. So that one probably didn't count much when they had to make their decision regarding Rare. And hadn't the key people behind Perfect Dark already left the company at that point?
loaf of bread
Member
Rare's last genuinely great game was Conker 15 years ago. They've made some decent/good games since then, mainly viva piñata, but they haven't made anything even close to the tier of dkc, banjo, or conker. They've made a whole lot of crap games as well.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
The most damaging thing of Nintendo relinquishing its shares of RARE, wasn't so much the company itself, but some of the intellectual properties lost with it. Perfect Dark and Killer Instinct could have been very useful to Nintendo moving forward with the Wii.
However, RARE was only one of the constituents affected by Iwata's restructuring. RARE, Left Field Productions, and Silicon Knights were all dropped as Nintendo affiliated studios. Nintendo also ended its relationship with Factor 5 who was not only developing system tools for Nintendo platforms, but tried to pitch a Pilotwings and Kid Icarus prototype. Nintendo Software Technology took a serious hit with Project Hammer being cancelled "because it was too core" and lost about half its staff. Nintendo of America as an autonomous production unit was relieved of their duties, and all their development contacts alongside it.
However, RARE was only one of the constituents affected by Iwata's restructuring. RARE, Left Field Productions, and Silicon Knights were all dropped as Nintendo affiliated studios. Nintendo also ended its relationship with Factor 5 who was not only developing system tools for Nintendo platforms, but tried to pitch a Pilotwings and Kid Icarus prototype. Nintendo Software Technology took a serious hit with Project Hammer being cancelled "because it was too core" and lost about half its staff. Nintendo of America as an autonomous production unit was relieved of their duties, and all their development contacts alongside it.
That isn't even close to being true.
Calamari41
41 > 38
It was worth pocketing a cool $800-$900 million in exchange for not getting Grabbed By The Ghoulies and Perfect Dark Zero.
That's a significant wad of cash.
That's a significant wad of cash.
clem84
Gold Member
In hindsight, Rare was much more valuable as a developer in the hands of Nintendo than in the hands of anyone else. It was no secret back then that Nintendo was treating Rare pretty much like an internal development studio, even if they were only second party. They were heavily involved in almost all of Rare's games. That's what made the studio so successful, that Rare/Nintendo partnership. MS probably underestimated how important that was.
I think it was a mistake for N to let them go. I know they only owned 49% but if they had wanted full ownership, I'm sure that would have been possible. The Stamper Brothers were looking to sell. N was the perfect candidate. Sadly they weren't interested.
The Gamecube era would've been a lot different for Nintendo with Rare on board.
I think it was a mistake for N to let them go. I know they only owned 49% but if they had wanted full ownership, I'm sure that would have been possible. The Stamper Brothers were looking to sell. N was the perfect candidate. Sadly they weren't interested.
The Gamecube era would've been a lot different for Nintendo with Rare on board.
Alex_Mexico
Member
This I can 200% agree with.
reynal1287
Member
It is.
IdreamofHIME
Member
The Wii really needed rare, such an under the radar system.....
Been saying this for years. I've said to enough to the point where I'm sick of it. I don't wanna think about all the awesome Rare Gamecube titles we missed out on. Yes, it was a mistake Nintendo sold Rare. Microsoft destroyed that studio with it's incompetence. I've let go of it.
At the point, you're better off getting your voices heard to have Nintendo buy Playtonic. Nintendo would be stupid to miss a second chance like that. My hopes are not high for it though. I feel like they just wouldn't care.
At the point, you're better off getting your voices heard to have Nintendo buy Playtonic. Nintendo would be stupid to miss a second chance like that. My hopes are not high for it though. I feel like they just wouldn't care.
Metallix87
Member
Mostly speculation, but after doing some quick research, it's basically the most logical reason for the move. Microsoft had acquired the rights to Rare's IP before even snagging Nintendo's shares, so it would have been a bad move on Nintendo's part to not secure some stake in the game. Making it a Star Fox game prevented Microsoft from grabbing the IP, as well as preventing them from remaking the game for their system.
Hours Left
Member
Rare was on the decline even when they were working with Nintendo. I don't think Ninty misses them.
Simbabbad
Member
Even if it were true, those games bombed. They wouldn't have helped the Wii, and 360 gamers let them die.
(I loved Nuts & Bolts)
Is there any particular reason why their output was so much smaller with the Gamecube and Xbox compared to the N64? Was it because of the sale to Microsoft and the subsequent platform shift?
Actually, I'm gonna say I still am salty we never got Donkey Kong Racing. Rare said they were inspired by GTA3 when creating this. I think this game could have been something special.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ThbbN3o5yw
If by decline you mean they pissed Nintendo off with Conker, then sure. They were nowhere near as bad as they became when Microsoft restructured the whole studio after Nut & Bolts bombed. I'd say Nintendo misses Rare a bit, Tropical Freeze has some nice nods to the original games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ThbbN3o5yw
If by decline you mean they pissed Nintendo off with Conker, then sure. They were nowhere near as bad as they became when Microsoft restructured the whole studio after Nut & Bolts bombed. I'd say Nintendo misses Rare a bit, Tropical Freeze has some nice nods to the original games.
Gonzo The Great
Banned
Rare released 30 games from 1994 to 2002 (eight years)
Retro has released five games since 2002 (13 years)
Regardless of what people say, the void was never filled and it still hasn't been filled. Nintendo's lack of western presence is part of the reason why they have been struggling to regain market share.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'm not super harsh on Iwata, but him selling Rare - and letting go of all of the companies they had ties with - makes me overall feel negative towards his tenure as CEO. I remember the whole thing with Project H.A.M.M.E.R. being cancelled for being too core-focused, which really stands out to me as good evidence that Iwata during the Wii era did not care about the loyal audience.
That said, with respect to Rare, the logic behind cutting them loose was absurd. Okay, yeah, they had a middling game with Star Fox Adventures and accounted for only so many sales figures. That goes without saying. Did they somehow forget though that there games before that have been exceptional and successful? Nintendo has a worse library of games made by them on average than Rare, to be darned honest. In not buying up the company when they had the chance, they lost some mature IPs like Perfect Dark, and they could have held onto the James Bond license so that Nintendo could keep going with a new Bond game after how successful GoldenEye was. It (or Perfect Dark) could have been their Halo.
This is kind of disingenuous. Rare was bleeding staff members after they became Microsoft, and from the reports on the cultural shift, Microsoft changed the development culture of Rare for the worst.
That said, with respect to Rare, the logic behind cutting them loose was absurd. Okay, yeah, they had a middling game with Star Fox Adventures and accounted for only so many sales figures. That goes without saying. Did they somehow forget though that there games before that have been exceptional and successful? Nintendo has a worse library of games made by them on average than Rare, to be darned honest. In not buying up the company when they had the chance, they lost some mature IPs like Perfect Dark, and they could have held onto the James Bond license so that Nintendo could keep going with a new Bond game after how successful GoldenEye was. It (or Perfect Dark) could have been their Halo.
This is kind of disingenuous. Rare was bleeding staff members after they became Microsoft, and from the reports on the cultural shift, Microsoft changed the development culture of Rare for the worst.
Alex_Mexico
Member
It hurts me more that MS took Rare's IPs more than anything else. Nintendo could use Perfect Dark, Killer Instinct and Banjo right about now.
Iwata has really mismanaged Nintendo in the west, which is surprising because Nintendo already was really mismanaged before Iwata came in.
Killer Instinct is probably in the best shape it's ever been in though.
Also, I really don't see Nintendo making use of the Perfect Dark IP.
People like to bring up that Rare's output shrank when they were bought by Microsoft. Turns out there was a ton of projects Rare wanted to make that Microsoft just wouldn't let them do. I think Rare had a bit more freedom with Nintendo, probably because Nintendo didn't own them 100%.
Alex_Mexico
Member
It astounds me when I read stuff like this and realize just how much has Nintendo mismanaged anything outside of Japan. Their lack of vision and care for the west is hurting the company more than anything right now.
Gurgelhals
Member
This is by far the bigger issue imho. During the early 2000s, Nintendo divested itself from all their development partners in the West (except Retro). Now, it could very well be the case that they had very good reasons for doing this, but I just see a lot of wasted potential. They currently have very productive partnerships with several dozens of small developers in Japan, so why can't they do something of that scale in the West? I mean, they are working with Next Level Games and Monster Games, but that's basically it, isn't it?
A Black Falcon
Member
Yeah, losing Rare was one of Nintendo's biggest mistakes. Don't we know that Nintendo was offered the rest of Rare, but they passed on buying it? Stupid, stupid mistake... Nintendo has never recovered from losing Rare. Even if Rare couldn't keep up their N64 production, they could have continued to make fantastic games that would have sold far better than their games for Microsoft, because more of Rare's audience are Nintendo fans of course.
Also, I definitely remember hearing something about how Grabbed by the Ghoulies was redesigned into a beat 'em up after the Microsoft sale.,.. maybe it'd have been a better game with Nintendo?
Donkey Kong Racing also would probably have released on the GC as well.
No, losing Rare itself was the most damaging part. Losing some of Rare's IPs isn't quite as bad.
Yeah, all of those were big mistakes as far as I'm concerned. Iwata's abandonment of the successful strategies that had led to the N64's success in the US was a big mistake. Sure, Microsoft's entry was going to make things hard, but Nintendo pretty much just surrendered that audience without much of a fight. I don't think the '90s team would have let that happen. Iwata's strategy of third party partnerships with mostly Japanese teams while abandoning almost all of their closest Western teams did more harm than good for Nintendo. Sure, the Japanese partnerships led to some good things, but they lost as much or more than they gained, and didn't get nearly as long-lasting partnerships in most cases, either.
Kameo and PDZ released in 2005 and would have been Gamecube games had they stayed with Nintendo, guaranteed. Viva Pinata released in early '06, so had that game still been made it'd probably have been early Wii (maybe late GC, probably not).
Also, I definitely remember hearing something about how Grabbed by the Ghoulies was redesigned into a beat 'em up after the Microsoft sale.,.. maybe it'd have been a better game with Nintendo?
Donkey Kong Racing also would probably have released on the GC as well.
DarthWalden
Banned
Obviously I'm just one case but it literally was the deciding factor between me -a fairly rabid Nintendo fanboy- to go with an Xbox over a GameCube.
I loved old rare. Even made built a decent jet force gemini website back in the day.
I loved old rare. Even made built a decent jet force gemini website back in the day.
Calamari41
41 > 38
How much has Killer Instinct sold on the Xbox One?
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
Of course they would have. It would have outsold Metroid Prime and Geist.
I'm sure some extremist minority would take a Treasure exclusive over a Rockstar joint. But the heart of this discussion is towards a global sales and consumer impact.
I am basing my argument on the reality that Nintendo would have never done a complete acquisition of RARE for one reason. RARE became over-sized. Nintendo would never feel comfortable solely managing a 200+ external studio. By keeping certain IPs, they can keep the IPs throughout several smaller contract studios (like SONY and Microsoft do).
Hahah Geist, I have no idea what Nintendo was thinking with that.
This pretty much, they offer Nintendo to buy their remaining stock but they overpriced themselves that Nintendo didn't want to pay for it.
Plus they were looking for a way out by any mean possible.
nintendork666
Member
I'll take Retro, Monolith Soft and this new alliance they seemed to have formed with Bandai Namco over Rare any day.
Starfox Adventures was a fitting last hurrah for the partnership.
Starfox Adventures was a fitting last hurrah for the partnership.
Muscle Wizard
Banned
It's not like Microsoft has capitalized much on this purchase. I just think Rare's time ended after the N64.
Remember, Rare also released 4 Game Boy Advance games after Microsoft bought them (7 if you include the DKC ports):
-Banjo-Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge
-Banjo Pilot
-It's Mr. Pants
-Sabre Wulf
A Link to the Past
Banned
Did they overprice themselves? I don't know if I would say they did. They were a vital partner in the N64. Without them, half of the N64's greatest games wouldn't exist.
Again, this seems to have come from just Star Fox, and then people used games rushed to launch by Microsoft like Perfect Dark Zero as proof that Rare lost the magic overnight.
You're saying Metroid Prime didn't set the world on fire but you can't compare the GameCube and N64. The competition from Sony in the GameCube era needs to be taken into consideration. I can guarantee if everything played out the same but Nintendo had rare still in that era it wouldn't have mattered whatsoever.
Release metroid prime on the n64 and it would have done just as good as Rares fps's.
Release metroid prime on the n64 and it would have done just as good as Rares fps's.
Steverulez
Member
Well, Kinect Sports did over 9m units for them on 360... thats a lot of money. Kameo and PDZ both did over 1m, not 100% sure about the Viva Pinatas, and Banjo Nuts and Bolts, though. N&B was a bit of a bomb I think, VP did well enough to get a sequel and 2 spin-offs (360 party game and DS game)
Jaded Alyx
Member
Exactly. Nintendo never owned RARE in the first place.
Metallix87
Member
They had four games in the works prior to the acquisition, aside from Star Fox Adventures and Grabbed by the Ghoulies:
- Kameo: Elements of Power
- Viva Piñata
- Perfect Dark Zero
- Donkey Kong Racing
Let's handle the obvious one first: Donkey Kong Racing was in early development when the acquisition happened, and it became Sabreman Stampede at that point. Rare had toyed with making it a hybrid racing and action / adventure game for the Xbox, and later for the Xbox 360, but in the end the project was canceled because the game just wasn't coming together. Some of the ideas were likely later used in Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts, though I'm not certain of this.
Kameo: Elements of Power was a development mess. It started out as a much more whimsical game for Gamecube, but the acquisition by Microsoft had them retooling the ideas again and again for the Xbox, particularly with regards to the art style. In 2004, Microsoft officially put the game on hold, though secretly they were yet again retooling it, this time to be an Xbox 360 launch title. The lengthy development ended up paying off, as the game was a very nice launch title for the platform.
Perfect Dark Zero was in the works for Gamecube, but only very early on. After the acquisition, Microsoft at first wanted the game to be one of the first games to support Xbox Live, but when it was clear that the game would never be ready by then, it was held back on purpose to be developed as the premiere launch title for the Xbox 360.
Viva Piñata was at first in development for the Pocket PC, strangely enough, but after the acquisition, it was moved to the Xbox. The game took a lengthy amount of time to finish, so Rare and Microsoft worked together to find a licensing partner to offset some of the costs of development. The partner they found was 4Kids, and when the game was finally ready and released on Xbox 360, the TV show was in the works to help sell the game (and the platform, of course).
True, but those would likely never have been Gamecube games, and likely required far less resources than their other titles, so for the sake of "helping the Gamecube", I didn't bother listing them.
nintendork666
Member
Rare wasn't the reason XBOX beat GCN though.
GCN was for kids. Didn't have GTA or Halo.
GCN was for kids. Didn't have GTA or Halo.
That game was released in 2008, it is now 2015. Don't worry you didn't miss that much else in your coma.
Let me say, I love the Rare games on Nintendo platforms, but slightly above Banjo I think Viva Piñata really felt like where Rare's unique talents shined the brightest.
The art direction, the designs, the gameplay, the music, the engine, everything great about Rare was coming together and just felt like they could go all-out with their ideas, and no other game ever made me seriously think about just how much fun it must have been a lot of fun to develop as it did.
The art direction, the designs, the gameplay, the music, the engine, everything great about Rare was coming together and just felt like they could go all-out with their ideas, and no other game ever made me seriously think about just how much fun it must have been a lot of fun to develop as it did.
We're talking about a multiplayer first-person shooter here. Outside of Metroid Prime Hunters and Steel Diver Sub Wars, Nintendo rarely even dipped its toes into that type of game. Then you have the aesthetic style and realistic guns, which I can't see Nintendo working with.
Nintendo hasn't really shown the chops for a decent first-person shooter beyond the Metroid Prime trilogy, and those games are very unlike Perfect Dark.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I don't agree with that. I think if we got GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, etc. on the GameCube, Metroid Prime would sell better because that western audience is more present. Metroid Prime had to:
1. Deal with Japan's disinterest in FPS games
2. Deal with Europe and Australia's disinterest in the GameCube
3. Deal with the lack of an American FPS-loving audience
Rogue_Ledr
Banned
Rare was a shadow of its former glory even by the time of the conclusion of their relationship with Nintendo.
The post-MS Rare has just been a straight up embarrassment to their legacy.
The post-MS Rare has just been a straight up embarrassment to their legacy.