Good to know, I was a bit worried I wasn't able to connect because of my location.
At least it gives me time to tweak the sensitivity curves and try to get rid of the janky controls.
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Star Citizen Pre-Alpha: 'Arena Commander' Dogfighting
- Thread starter MrBig
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Good to know, I was a bit worried I wasn't able to connect because of my location.
At least it gives me time to tweak the sensitivity curves and try to get rid of the janky controls.
I'm using mouse and keyboard actually. I think it was just a random bug. It's never happened before and it hasn't happened since.
If you can't outright buy them, strip them of their talents, one at a time.
That Roberts. Diabolic.
It was more like, some guys wanted go to Epic or ID etc, but they offered them better deal and in their home town
They need to transfer Tiago Sousa now from ID to finalize old Crytek team Dreams-Visions
Member
Hey guys, quick question: I'm thinking about my keyboard options and am wondering if SC makes use of the number pad on the side? Deciding between a tenkeyless keyboard and a standard one. I'm trying to see if any games on my short list utilize that number pad, which would inform my purchase decision. I rarely use the number pad in my daily life, much less in playing games...but I haven't really started into SC yet and I wouldn't want to hamper my game experience because I didn't get a keyboard with enough buttons, you know?
Teknopathetic
Member
"But thats actually artificially restricting options and it wont work, because in multi-crew ships You will have a pilot and a gunner and there You cant block mouse control of weapons.
Disadvantage of piloting with mouse and shooting is that You have worse control over ship when You are aiming with weapon though and i think this will balance it out.
We still dont know what Electronic Warfare will be like."
Gimballed mounts are a separate thing from turrets, player controlled turrets on multi-crew ships being mouse controlled is fine.
And yes, in theory, the two input devices would balance out. In reality, when you actually play these games: they never will.
Disadvantage of piloting with mouse and shooting is that You have worse control over ship when You are aiming with weapon though and i think this will balance it out.
We still dont know what Electronic Warfare will be like."
Gimballed mounts are a separate thing from turrets, player controlled turrets on multi-crew ships being mouse controlled is fine.
And yes, in theory, the two input devices would balance out. In reality, when you actually play these games: they never will.
I didnt mean turrets, but more like one player is a pilot and second will control weapons, because i'm pretty this will be possible on some ships.
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I would generally vote against buying number pad less keyboard, but You will be able to rebind all the controls in Star Citizen, the question is:
Will the remaining keys be enough or enough comfortable?
It was more like, some guys wanted go to Epic or ID etc, but they offered them better deal and in their home town
Sousa back working on a CryEngine project would be amazing but it must be hard to drive him away from Bethesda where the pay is really good.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Which is fine because pilots will fly and gunners will aim. The biggest issue is with how they have implemented gimbals with mouse aiming + flying. The two controls are playing two different games, pad/stick/HOTAS all have to fly to aim their ships while mouse users use aim to fly. That is the imbalance.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I would generally vote against buying number pad less keyboard, but You will be able to rebind all the controls in Star Citizen, the question is will, the remaining keys be enough or enough comfortable?
Roger that. Keypad keyboard will be ordered today.
Whitelines
Neo Member
posted in the wrong thread sorry
The new manual has the default keyboard layout.
7 keys on the numpad are currently used for redirecting shields.
I understand the difference, but dont You think that even if they changed the setup, by for example blocking free aiming with mouse while flying, it would be again 'debalanced' when they would implement ability to have pilots and gunners? Gunner would have free aim and would use mouse for sure.
And we still dont know all the EW game.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Not at all, they are separate issues. Gunners can aim with mouse as long as they are not flying at the same time. That can be balanced with turret rotation et all. If they made the mouse a virtual joystick it would have no impact on the multi crew aspect of the game.
Teknopathetic
Member
"I understand the difference, but dont You think that even if they changed the setup, by for example blocking free aiming with mouse while flying, it would be again 'debalanced' when they would implement ability to have pilots and gunners? Gunner would have free aim and would use mouse for sure."
No, it's actually kind of tricky to hit people when the ship is moving in ways you can't predict because someone else is controlling it. You're also reliant on communicating with another player to maneuver the ship to keep whatever you're trying to shoot in your cone of fire.
No, it's actually kind of tricky to hit people when the ship is moving in ways you can't predict because someone else is controlling it. You're also reliant on communicating with another player to maneuver the ship to keep whatever you're trying to shoot in your cone of fire.
Again, i'm not talking about turrets, i'm talking about a second player having control over weapons on the ships, not a mounted turrets.
Mouse as a virtual joystick? By input lag or acceleration/deceleration? No thanks.
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Seems easier to me. My experience from Battlefield games seems to proving it, it was definitely easier to shot in dual seated helicopters with two players than just one.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Which is fine that can be balanced with turret speeds, power draw, damage, blind spots etc. Plus being a gunner on ship you are not controlling is more difficult by default. If a gunner crew and pilot are in communication and can coordinate and work well, then it should powerful.
Edit: acceleration/ deceleration and input lag are in the game with ESP. Custom curves and disabling assists would negate that.
Edit 2: Choppers in BF are poor comparison. 6dof makes it a whole different scenario. Atmospheric flight has a true horizon and gravity. Choppers are always oriented the same way and targets are mostly on the ground. Space makes it all relative so it becomes much harder.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Seems easier to me. My experience from Battlefield games seems to proving it, it was definitely easier to shot in dual seated helicopters with two players than just one."
Yes, it is easier to shoot when you don't have to swap seats because someone is piloting for you. However, if you were able to control all of a Blackhawk's guns from the pilot seat and point them forward and still have a large amount of gimbal control, that would be easier than being a side gunner.
Yes, it is easier to shoot when you don't have to swap seats because someone is piloting for you. However, if you were able to control all of a Blackhawk's guns from the pilot seat and point them forward and still have a large amount of gimbal control, that would be easier than being a side gunner.
Guys, why are You still talking about turrets?
I'm not talking about side turrets, i'm talking about the same weapons You are using right now, just by completely different person.
Imagine M50 or Aurora that You are playing right now, You flight and shoot from the front guns by Yourself, now imagine same scenario, where one player flies the ship and other shoots from those front guns.
I'm not talking about side turrets, i'm talking about the same weapons You are using right now, just by completely different person.
Imagine M50 or Aurora that You are playing right now, You flight and shoot from the front guns by Yourself, now imagine same scenario, where one player flies the ship and other shoots from those front guns.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Imagine M50 or Aurora that You are playing right now, You flight and shoot from the front guns by Yourself, now imagine same scenario, where one player flies the ship and other shoots from those front guns."
Those are both single seater ships. You won't be able to have another person shoot from those guns.
Those are both single seater ships. You won't be able to have another person shoot from those guns.
I know they are, it was just an example for an idea that blocking free aiming on weapons wont do anything when they introduce concept of multi-seated ships, because those wont have blocked aiming.
Its to early to talk about balance and i'm all against blocking control options.
The Super Hornet might theoretically offer the possibility, although I'm not sure why it would for fixed weapons.
IMO gimbaled weapons on the Star Citicen fighters make sense from a militaristic "in universe" point of view. Really, anything providing some kind of advantage in combat does. Hard to imagine the upper tiers of a military turning down an engineer's work, because it could make their troops imbalanced.
The question is how they'd integrate them into the ship's interface. I've yet to see mouse+keyboard in a cockpit. Unless they have some neural control or "head aiming" in the helmets, single seater pilots would have a hard time effectively using gimbals with their HOTAS. They'd probably have a lock on and auto aim mechanism, just like what's available in Elite Dangerous.
IMO, instead of dumbing down mouse controls, they should just implement that mechanism for both mouse and HOTAS players.
Yep. It is so simple, a lot of people talked about it (I'm one of them) in the very first version of AC. A year later we are in the same situation, and I'm starting to think it is too late now.
IMO gimbaled weapons on the Star Citicen fighters make sense from a militaristic "in universe" point of view. Really, anything providing some kind of advantage in combat does. Hard to imagine the upper tiers of a military turning down an engineer's work, because it could make their troops imbalanced.
Militaristic in universe point of view would be lasers and missiles shot by drones from miles away. SC isn't realistic, starting with the way ships are designed...Personnaly I don't care about realism in that case. Providing great gameplay should be more important.
Dictator93
Member
Fan art using the ingame assets in the Cryengine EaaS,
I'm going to go on record here saying I think VR users with six-axis controllers (e.g. Lighthouse) will have such an advantage over other control methods (including HOTAS) for Star Citizen that it'll be like keyboard+mouse users vs controller users for FPS games.
Lighthouse info: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1004536
The control concept I'm imagining is that you hold your controller in your comfortable "home" position, hit a button to set that as your home point, and then once that's set, any offset or rotation from that point translates to acceleration and rotation on your ship. It'll take some getting used to, but I think there's a new level of finesse possible there thanks to the natural input method.
The VR headset is for the ability to look around completely freely (e.g. look behind you while reversing around asteroids and firing forward) and the depth perception. It could also provide a visual aid for your controller by showing its position relative to its home point as part of the scene in the VR space.
Zalusithix
Member
Zero feedback to determine position doesn't bode well for a control scheme. Resetting a free floating controller to the no forward thrust, no turn, no roll, no strafe position would be a pain in the ass without centering forces.
The only possible benefit I see of that control scheme is strafing controls in analog. Otherwise a HOTAS + pedal setup has you covered in full analog without any downsides.
But they changed a lot in a year. And restricting controls is not a solution.
I really have hard time understand how limiting free-aim will help the game.
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Fan art using the ingame assets in the Cryengine EaaS,
Thats simply outstanding
Yeah, that's definitely a concern. Hard to say if I would ever be able to get used to it without having tried it. I was thinking that instead of physical forces from springs, the engine could provide a visualization of your inputs.
Maybe something like a Novint Falcon would be better. Just need a version with more inputs on it. Here's a custom one someone made (no resistance yet though): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOalWbODLsw
One more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo767n09JuQ (maybe mount a grip at the top of that).
(from this thread)
metalshade
Member
Is there any reason why they can't just implement a system where all gimbal weapons are computer controlled?
So everyone only flies and fires.
Non gimbal weapons stay the same as they are now, with only a small amount of auto convergence.
Surely this would be a fair and equal playing field?
So everyone only flies and fires.
Non gimbal weapons stay the same as they are now, with only a small amount of auto convergence.
Surely this would be a fair and equal playing field?
Anton Sugar
Member
This is how it is in Elite.
The SC model intrigues me, having not played it, as it looks very fluid and easy to use, but also looks like mouse users have a distinct advantage in some ways. However, going by the conversation over the past page, maybe that's up for debate.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Perhaps but it comes down to the connection of the pilot to the ship. In flight games more control generally means a more rewarding experience. Gimbals have a place for sure personally I think they should be for auto convergence of guns or maybe even a "marksman mode" for aiming the guns independent of flying.
It isn't limiting free aiming but to bring the core experiance of flight combat evenly across control types. The game has the ideal mode for mouse control in relative mode (ctrl+ C). If that were the default mouse control, it would go a long way.
Teknopathetic
Member
"could an upgraded mouse nub on the HOTAS' throttle to used to more or less effectively control gimballed weapons?"
If it was upgraded to be something like a trackball, sure. I can't imagine any implementation of those nubs ever being satisfactory in any context, let alone mice emulation.
If it was upgraded to be something like a trackball, sure. I can't imagine any implementation of those nubs ever being satisfactory in any context, let alone mice emulation.
Dictator93
Member
I disable my mouse nub. It only gets in the way if you accidentally touch it.
Yeah, that's what I meant, something like a trackball or a trackpad.
Paging Sandi.
Just saw this.....
User made Repair/Medical ship
and I want this in the game bad. Its such a cool design.
User made Repair/Medical ship
and I want this in the game bad. Its such a cool design.
I don't think so. That might be realistic, but apparently not in Star Citizen's or most other space "sims'" universe. There, space combat resembles WWII era dogfights without atmosphere and gravity. As SC tries to make many things plausible while including gimbaled weapons on single seat fighters though, they have to give the ship's interface a thought.
From my limited experience, Elite Dangerous' gimbal system works great as a game mechanic, is explainable with the currently visible and implemented ship interface in Star Citizen and puts nobody at a (perceived?) disadvantage due point & click controls exclusive to the mouse. By contrast, the current fly by wire system for gimbals with mouse control has no explanation in the Star Citizen universe, unless, as I said, the pilot has some neural connection for controlling the gimbals. Or maybe there is again an in universe fly by wire system in place, that has the pilot controlling the gimbals and lets the ship follow their aim. But that doesn't correspond to the in game stick movements, iirc.
How is it not limiting? You dont want the current option of free-aim to exist, so You want to limit the control method.
Still i dont see how this will help the game, in other way that make HOTAS more competitive or mouse less effective. It really screams to me, 'hey i spend so much on advanced flying input device, i dont want to lose to cheap m&k combo, please nerf', sorry.
Game should aim at giving users as much control over ships as possible through as many devices and game systems as possibles, not restrict something, because some players have slightly worse chance than others, because when it will end? What about gamepads users in that case? What about FPS module?
Dictator93
Member
Well in interviews with the FPS team, they have said, unlike shp flying, they do not recommend using a gamepad for FPS as you will be at a massive disadvantage: and that this is by design.
On the other hand, CIGs goal with controller-agnostic fyling is to have each form of control be relatively equal. Not just allow a different type, but also have it scale as well as all others.
On the other hand, CIGs goal with controller-agnostic fyling is to have each form of control be relatively equal. Not just allow a different type, but also have it scale as well as all others.
Zalusithix
Member
Got to thinking about the free floating controller this morning and how it'd be possible to give feedback to such a system. While I can't think of any way to give a strafing force, theoretically by using flywheels you could gain rotational force. Basically a reaction wheel / control momentum gyroscope based system packed into a wand. Used in conjunction perhaps with some other feedback system like the haptics in the steam controller, you could get a semblance of translational position feedback. It wouldn't force you back to translational center, but it could guide you there. Of course, such a system would be very complex and need exacting build quality. It also wouldn't be that light due to the flywheels, and to top it all off, it would suck down power and generate noise. Oh, and it'd also cost a small fortune.
Back to reality, I still see the joystick/pedal combination as being the best control system available for pitch control. It's simple and works fine. Something like the Novint system, however, would make a good thrust control. You'd have independent thrust control in all 6 directions for full analog primary thrust and strafing. Tap into a fine tuned TrackIR/VR system for looking around / aiming gimbals and you've got a damn good setup.
Dictator93
Member
PCGH did some hardware tests with AC 1.1
This game just roughs up hardware like crazy. I love it.
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Star-Citizen-PC-256428/Specials/Patch-11-Benchmarks-1154520/
No single GPU crests above 24 FPS @ 4K. Awesome.
This game just roughs up hardware like crazy. I love it.
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Star-Citizen-PC-256428/Specials/Patch-11-Benchmarks-1154520/
No single GPU crests above 24 FPS @ 4K. Awesome.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Free aim can exist, it just needs to be independent of flight. The axis stacking on one control type vs the others is what creates the imbalance. Mouse is also very limited in maneuvering with the current control implementation. It is much better in relative mode (although will never be as good as a vectoring device). Giving control over ships is the goal as mouse users have a lot less control over the ships than everyone else (although things like ESP go against giving more control).
Twin joysticks and pedals brah. What the real astronauts use. Which is what I'm hoping the SC stick becomes.
Zalusithix
Member
Twin joysticks + pedals would have less axis control than the joystick/pedal/novint-type setup. The Novint type could control thrust in all three axes. Side to side, up and down, forward and back. Replacing that with a joystick would reduce you to two axis control.
Mind you, I have toyed with the idea of twin joysticks for SC. Pity most left handed capable ones suck.
Dictator93
Member
I was just thinking how awesome a novint + joystick set up would be. Has anyone tried the novient gun with AC yet?
Zalusithix
Member
I doubt anybody here has. I'm not even sure the thing works at all with the game. The thing can emulate a mouse, but I don't know if it can emulate a standard game controller. If not, you'd need to have support baked into the game directly.
If it was baked into the game directly (unlikely given the niche audience), it could have another interesting function though. The force feedback could alert you to where your ship is being hit. Have the control interface kick in the same direction that the ship would.
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