FFXV Episode Duscae Combat-focused Run & Postgame
So here’s the video I said I’d get uploaded. I felt I needed this before I engaged in any further serious discussion/debate because I often found I needed to fall back on footage to back up what I was trying to convey, and this video lets me do that by linking directly to specific timestamps with the context that it's a full-runthrough and not cherrypicking. It’s not so much a ‘it’s fine learn2play’ statement as it is reinforcing my opinion in that I can see how a lot of the design decisions were very deliberately made. And by all means please don’t let me dissuade you from sending in your own feedback.
Some of this is copypasta of previous posts I’ve made, but I’ve consolidated and refined my ramblings into what I really wanted to say, in a more concise fashion (... hopefully)
Here’s the video description that pertains more to the video itself. My opinion and verdict follows after that.
And here are my thoughts:
It's kind of clear that a lot of the way the demo works is very, very specifically done to showcase different parts of what's going to be important to FFXV gameplay. Stuff like food immunity making the cave much easier to showcase the cooking system. Stuff like the summon being an overpowered set piece just to show off the summon system (you're delusional if you think you'll be able to cheese every boss this way in the full game)
Versus XIII was always going to be an action slanted JRPG and that's not going to change. The only thing that's really shifted is the focus being even more on Noctis than his companions, just because he's an overpowered wanker (largely due to plot reasons, mind you)
Regardless of Square Enix's long term plan for the Final Fantasy franchise in general, FFXV is locked into its course. That's why I think the way the demo was bundled with Type-0 was a good one. I think Square Enix realizes that at this point, there's so many different Final Fantasy games, each with its own rabid fanbases, who all want the next installment(s) to be exactly what they want, and it's simply too diverse a lot to cater to everyone. Hence bundling with Type-0 and collecting feedback only from the people who bought it is serves as a kind-of entry barrier, or a focus group if you will. It allows them to refine the experience based on feedback specifically from people who would find FFXV's premise interesting, e.g. in broad strokes:
- People who have been following development of Versus XIII for some time and have an interest in it in particular, and who understand the action combat slant was the intention to begin with.
- People who are invested into Type-0, which shares roots in ARPG systems, and has the same (current) director.
It's not just simply 'a ploy to sell more Type-0 copies'. Of course, there's still going to be some confusion, consternation and negative reception to the combat (and that is totally fine, opinions etc), but at least it's not going to be 80% people asking for turn-based combat without a clue as to the history of Versus XIII.
(It bears mentioning now that I have platinums on all KH1.5/2.5 games along with Critical runs with all optional bosses defeated, as well as close to 100% completion on the Arkham and Assassin’s Creed games, aside from multiplayer trophies)
Regarding comparisons to KH: There’s definitely a more grounded, realistic feel to the combat, and I personally find that it’s largely based on western influences. I think it’s more accurate to say that the animation work in this game is ‘fluid’, where character action games and KH feels more ‘gaseous’ (Not that I mean that in a bad way - it’s simply how character action controls essentially let you accelerate, turn on a dime, and jump several times your height with only a passing resemblance to conservation of momentum and physics as they apply in real life). I think it goes beautifully with the more grounded, realistic look FFXV has adopted compared to the more fantastic aesthetic of Versus XIII (in the gameplay segments, if not the FMV)
I personally found the demo to be a breath of fresh air for the franchise. I wouldn't want every mainline entry to be like this going forward (and honestly the gameplay 'works' just because it specifically hinges heavily on the plot device of Noctis being able to summon different weapons on the fly) just like I wouldn't want every Final Fantasy to be strictly turn-based like FFX.
I'm going to echo the sentiment that this is quite refreshing not just for Final Fantasy, but for action games in general. It's got this weird hybrid disposition halfway between the very responsive combat like Tales or KH and the slower, more deliberate animation-based western combat of Assassin's Creed or the Arkham games. I feel this, even in its barebones state, has successfully branched out into being its own thing, especially when the nuances of weapon swapping and managing MP come into play.
There's just a very deep skill component in the combat right now, once you understand all its subsystems and nuances. For example, the camera/lock-on could use some work to be more intuitive, but I've revised my opinion that it's more of poorly explained, rather than badly designed, and I can totally see how people who have been testing it from the get go could have allowed it to 'get to this point' since it's functional when you play the game a certain way.
In most JRPGs you fight enemies because you encounter them randomly, need drops, need XP, need to kill a certain number for missions, or whatever. It's something you eventually want to rush through. Conversely even in its barebones state In Episode Duscae I'm getting into combat just for the sake of combat, simply because I want to push myself harder and pull of a shit ton of cool clutches and feel like a badass. Looking back at PS4 auto-recorded footage, I'm always finding things I could have done better, whether it be whiffed attacks, better mana management, getting that one parry off, staggering a mob that could have been staggered, landing a Full Thrust, predicting choreographed attacks better, etc. The potential skill ceiling for this is very, very high, and we've barely even scratched the surface of the systems/customization/options in the final game's combat.
I'm at the point that I hope there are challenge modes just to capitalize on the combat system, like the combat challenges of Arkham City. That's how good it is. On one hand it's something that's more JRPG flavored than the typical western action games like Arkham or AC, like I said earlier. On the other, it's not like the Gold Saucer arena in FF7 where you're entering just for the prizes, and there's not much investment into the rounds of combat itself - you just want Cloud to win so you'll be done with it.
There are definitely things I think need fixing or optimizing (not talking about the technical aspects) but I’m going to leave that for direct feedback to Square Enix for now, or if someone specifically brings it up as a point of discussion. I’m excited to dive fully into the combat of the full game.
p.s. more combat tips focusing on a single specific encounter - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1AIxNKIlAI
So here’s the video I said I’d get uploaded. I felt I needed this before I engaged in any further serious discussion/debate because I often found I needed to fall back on footage to back up what I was trying to convey, and this video lets me do that by linking directly to specific timestamps with the context that it's a full-runthrough and not cherrypicking. It’s not so much a ‘it’s fine learn2play’ statement as it is reinforcing my opinion in that I can see how a lot of the design decisions were very deliberately made. And by all means please don’t let me dissuade you from sending in your own feedback.
Some of this is copypasta of previous posts I’ve made, but I’ve consolidated and refined my ramblings into what I really wanted to say, in a more concise fashion (... hopefully)
Here’s the video description that pertains more to the video itself. My opinion and verdict follows after that.
This is a combat-focused runthrough of the game that starts with selecting "New Game" and ends with killing Deadeye (postgame) without using summon, items or cover regen, clocking at just under 3h30m. This is -not- a speed run by any stretch of imagination. I threw this together mainly for myself because I was lacking footage that supported what I was trying to say in debates and discussion about the combat system, presentation, features, highlighting things I think could be improved upon, etc. No running commentary. I did it from the start so that I wouldn’t simply be doing a bunch of encounters where Noctis is already OP as far as the demo goes. (although there’s some of that in the second half of this video)
There are a lot of things that people do not realize are in the game (partially due to a barebones tutorial), and a lot of things people wish FFXV would be. At its core, however, as mentioned by Sun and Haz during the PAX East presentation, there are a few pillars on which FFXV combat is built on
- Balancing offense and defense
- Managing MP
- Parrying
- Selecting the right weapons for the right slots (This really isn’t built upon enough in the demo though)
FFXV is it’s own thing and isn’t going to change
A lot of the combat encounters I get into in this runthrough are to demonstrate the nuance already possible within the limited moveset that the demo presents. This involves things like successfully dealing with all the different monster types with the least amount of fuss, going on the defensive when necessary, making use of flinching/staggering, making use of the Techniques, disengaging when things gets rough or overwhelming, etc. You could say I’m pretty proficient at the combat system and it’s totally possible from picking up pointers just by watching. Yet at the same time this is a no-bullshit start-to-end run with no editing. I do screw up quite a bit, and I’m not trying to hide errors in my play - that is not the point of the video. Essentially keep in mind I’m not cherry picking highlights to make combat look better than it is.
===================================
The basic structure of this video is two parts divided roughly in half. Combat doesn’t really get interesting until the second half when especially Knightsguard is obtained.
The ‘main quest’ of the demo, involving:
- 7:00 Combat tutorial
- 12:39 Misc tutorials (fighting the first Sabertusks, Garula and Magitek troops)
- 24:30 Tracking Deadeye + stealth section
- 41:47 The plan and failure
- 55:30 Visiting Wiz’ chocobo post
- 1:04:50 Visiting the Goblin cave and obtaining summon
- 1:27:40 Going back to Deadeye and throwing just to summon
- 1:33:00 Getting the 4th sword (I get it here rather than at the start so that I’m doing e.g. the Goblin cave without being OP)
- 1:34:40 Fixing the car, ending the demo including the spoilery bits
Postgame, involving
- 1:42:30 Levelling to 46 (so, a LOT of combat)
- 3:08:50 Beating Deadeye without using the summon, items, or excessive cover to regenerate MP.
I kept a running timer while doing the postgame and broke off to fight Deadeye when I figured the fight would bring the two halves roughly to equal length.
===================================
For quick-navigation, here are some of the more interesting combat encounters:
- 30:50 - Basic Sabertusk pack - warp-flinch is your friend, as is preemptively vanquishing to save time
- 48:10 - Garula pack with Magitek troops dropping in - near-flawless swapping between offensive and defensive
- 58:20 - Saberclaw pack without food buff - it gets a little tedious but shows that parries are actually predictable before the animation begins if you pay attention to positioning
- 1:11:47 - Lots of goblins
- 1:15:00 - Lots of goblins EP2 Revenge of the Armiger
POSTGAME
(Most of the other postgame combat encounters are worth watching for different reasons)
- 1:44:35 - A fight where I end up bailing because no food buffs is terrible
- 2:34:30 - is one of the more interesting prolonged encounters, complete with bugs.
- 2:46:20 - wat lol. MORE BUGS. Oh well, since combat is the point of this runthrough, I abort.
And here are my thoughts:
It's kind of clear that a lot of the way the demo works is very, very specifically done to showcase different parts of what's going to be important to FFXV gameplay. Stuff like food immunity making the cave much easier to showcase the cooking system. Stuff like the summon being an overpowered set piece just to show off the summon system (you're delusional if you think you'll be able to cheese every boss this way in the full game)
Versus XIII was always going to be an action slanted JRPG and that's not going to change. The only thing that's really shifted is the focus being even more on Noctis than his companions, just because he's an overpowered wanker (largely due to plot reasons, mind you)
Regardless of Square Enix's long term plan for the Final Fantasy franchise in general, FFXV is locked into its course. That's why I think the way the demo was bundled with Type-0 was a good one. I think Square Enix realizes that at this point, there's so many different Final Fantasy games, each with its own rabid fanbases, who all want the next installment(s) to be exactly what they want, and it's simply too diverse a lot to cater to everyone. Hence bundling with Type-0 and collecting feedback only from the people who bought it is serves as a kind-of entry barrier, or a focus group if you will. It allows them to refine the experience based on feedback specifically from people who would find FFXV's premise interesting, e.g. in broad strokes:
- People who have been following development of Versus XIII for some time and have an interest in it in particular, and who understand the action combat slant was the intention to begin with.
- People who are invested into Type-0, which shares roots in ARPG systems, and has the same (current) director.
It's not just simply 'a ploy to sell more Type-0 copies'. Of course, there's still going to be some confusion, consternation and negative reception to the combat (and that is totally fine, opinions etc), but at least it's not going to be 80% people asking for turn-based combat without a clue as to the history of Versus XIII.
(It bears mentioning now that I have platinums on all KH1.5/2.5 games along with Critical runs with all optional bosses defeated, as well as close to 100% completion on the Arkham and Assassin’s Creed games, aside from multiplayer trophies)
Regarding comparisons to KH: There’s definitely a more grounded, realistic feel to the combat, and I personally find that it’s largely based on western influences. I think it’s more accurate to say that the animation work in this game is ‘fluid’, where character action games and KH feels more ‘gaseous’ (Not that I mean that in a bad way - it’s simply how character action controls essentially let you accelerate, turn on a dime, and jump several times your height with only a passing resemblance to conservation of momentum and physics as they apply in real life). I think it goes beautifully with the more grounded, realistic look FFXV has adopted compared to the more fantastic aesthetic of Versus XIII (in the gameplay segments, if not the FMV)
I personally found the demo to be a breath of fresh air for the franchise. I wouldn't want every mainline entry to be like this going forward (and honestly the gameplay 'works' just because it specifically hinges heavily on the plot device of Noctis being able to summon different weapons on the fly) just like I wouldn't want every Final Fantasy to be strictly turn-based like FFX.
I'm going to echo the sentiment that this is quite refreshing not just for Final Fantasy, but for action games in general. It's got this weird hybrid disposition halfway between the very responsive combat like Tales or KH and the slower, more deliberate animation-based western combat of Assassin's Creed or the Arkham games. I feel this, even in its barebones state, has successfully branched out into being its own thing, especially when the nuances of weapon swapping and managing MP come into play.
There's just a very deep skill component in the combat right now, once you understand all its subsystems and nuances. For example, the camera/lock-on could use some work to be more intuitive, but I've revised my opinion that it's more of poorly explained, rather than badly designed, and I can totally see how people who have been testing it from the get go could have allowed it to 'get to this point' since it's functional when you play the game a certain way.
In most JRPGs you fight enemies because you encounter them randomly, need drops, need XP, need to kill a certain number for missions, or whatever. It's something you eventually want to rush through. Conversely even in its barebones state In Episode Duscae I'm getting into combat just for the sake of combat, simply because I want to push myself harder and pull of a shit ton of cool clutches and feel like a badass. Looking back at PS4 auto-recorded footage, I'm always finding things I could have done better, whether it be whiffed attacks, better mana management, getting that one parry off, staggering a mob that could have been staggered, landing a Full Thrust, predicting choreographed attacks better, etc. The potential skill ceiling for this is very, very high, and we've barely even scratched the surface of the systems/customization/options in the final game's combat.
I'm at the point that I hope there are challenge modes just to capitalize on the combat system, like the combat challenges of Arkham City. That's how good it is. On one hand it's something that's more JRPG flavored than the typical western action games like Arkham or AC, like I said earlier. On the other, it's not like the Gold Saucer arena in FF7 where you're entering just for the prizes, and there's not much investment into the rounds of combat itself - you just want Cloud to win so you'll be done with it.
There are definitely things I think need fixing or optimizing (not talking about the technical aspects) but I’m going to leave that for direct feedback to Square Enix for now, or if someone specifically brings it up as a point of discussion. I’m excited to dive fully into the combat of the full game.
p.s. more combat tips focusing on a single specific encounter - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1AIxNKIlAI