What. You didn't even get the onus of proof right, you are the one with the viable donation as the argument and Twitch as one of the premise.
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Paid Skyrim mods being removed from Steam
- Thread starter Archie
- Start date
CyclopsRock
Member
I don't really see why you need to choose between a donation system and a paid-for system. Why not allow both - and make the donation button significant - then let the modders decide for themselves what works out best for them? If the community wishes to punish paid-for mods for their temerity, they can opt to offer patronage only to the donation ones. Maybe for some mods, they'd rather go the donation route, where as others would end up better off with fewer, higher paying users.
Both would leave the users out of pocket and with a broken mod if the game updates and the modder skidaddles, so neither option actually solves that problem.
Both would leave the users out of pocket and with a broken mod if the game updates and the modder skidaddles, so neither option actually solves that problem.
Nexus has had a front-facing donation system for years.
I got an even lower donation percentage from Nexus compared to what I got from my blog.
(And just to repeat this, that's not an issue for me, and I'm not complaining. But telling people who want/need to support themselves with modding to use donations is ridiculous)
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Sure, but at least with donations you know that you're not buying a product. People are well-aware of the difference between donations and purchases, for the most part. If I buy a flaming sword of justice, it better be super flamey and it had better dispense with the justice in a goddamn hurry. If I give xXFabricOfYourMomsLifeXx 10 bucks for a flaming sword and it breaks my game, I really only have myself to blame. It's no different that free mods. Modders since time immemorial have posted something like "I will not run customer support for every problem, but I'll try to help if I can" for a reason. They can at any time just say "Fuck it, I'm moving on to DOTA." Harder to do that once you've taken somebody's money in a financial transaction.
It also didn't have one for many, many more years and plenty of modders still don't have the button enabled. And once again, Nexus is pretty large, but it's not Steam. Many, many aspects of PC gaming floundered before it became standardized under Valve, for better or worse.
Ivory Samoan
Gold Member
Awesome work Valve/Gaben/Beth, now... someone implement a great way to donate directly to modders via the Nexus and we'll be sorted 
CyclopsRock
Member
Maybe, but that's a distinction that exists solely on someone's head. You're still giving money for a product that could break tomorrow, in both instances. You may end up paying more, in fact, via donation. Eitherway, both options should be available.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
A donation button does almost nothing to achieve what they hoped to achieve with paid mods. I don't even think it is worth experimenting with in any serious capacity as an alternative to allowing modders to charge a fee.
Do people really think those dota2 modders would enjoy the same amount of success if they only had a donation button? Forcing a donation button on them would basically strip their livelihood and force them to get jobs not making mods.
If the goal is to set up a system where a modder could work full time making mods, donations aren't even going to come close. If the goal is to attract talent by giving additional incentive to work on their game, again donations fall way short of that mark.
While not worthless, a donation button is not even nearly good enough. On the other hand, they should have a donation button. In fact, they nearly did. "Pay what you want" pretty much was a donation button. Oh, but it is gone now isn't it.
Do people really think those dota2 modders would enjoy the same amount of success if they only had a donation button? Forcing a donation button on them would basically strip their livelihood and force them to get jobs not making mods.
If the goal is to set up a system where a modder could work full time making mods, donations aren't even going to come close. If the goal is to attract talent by giving additional incentive to work on their game, again donations fall way short of that mark.
While not worthless, a donation button is not even nearly good enough. On the other hand, they should have a donation button. In fact, they nearly did. "Pay what you want" pretty much was a donation button. Oh, but it is gone now isn't it.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yeah, which is why I've been very careful to say that if they put paid mods up, they need the support around it. Durante is one dude. If a Valve size audience started hitting him up for customer service advice for the mod he put up for sale, he couldn't reasonably be expected to handle it. There is an order to doing things correctly, and to me, the first step in monetizing mods is ensuring a base level of customer service. Valve is far away from that at the moment. Classic case of them putting the buggy before the horse.
The net may remember but it has a bad habit of giving in eventually as well and we all know that they will take another swing at this eventually in some form. It's doubtful that they will be the only ones. Everything about gaming is being sliced up as much as possible so money can be made in one form or another.
The question is what will eventually be too much. And what will be the result on the industry.
People actually still believe that?
CyclopsRock
Member
I disagree entirely, to be honest. I don't see a distinction between the two. Anything that needs to be in place for sales needs to be there for donations, I think. And IMO there's not much that needs to be in place.
Yes. Let me know one company who actually listen to community feedback on reddit and other forums and takes immediate decision.
I would argue against them listening so much as quickly backing down from a PR meltdown in which even Gabe took some serious heat. A feat never seen before. People did not buy his answers. They did not buy this whole help the modders and the backlash was nothing to scoff at.
All they said was basically how things was done wrong, that was true.
But it's foolish to think that they will not try this again in what they believe to be more "acceptable" and have less blow back. Valve like any company likes money. They are no different from anyone.
Majukun
Member
fucking Microsoft did...
Microsoft ?!
Valve are no different to any business, they are here to make money and if something has the potential to affect the overall business performance they will stop it.
Their quick buck idea backfired, it happens.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
You disagree that one person can't handle a massive influx of customer support requests? I didn't think that was very contentious, to be frank. If you meant you disagree with the difference between donations and sales, well, I don't know how to respond to that. They are factually different things. They have some similarities, but those similarities don't change the fundamental differences between a sale and a donation.
Sure valve is a business. Business do what business do. Nothing wrong with that. But they still give much more back to the gaming community than companies like ms or sony do and actually keep things moving forward in gaming space. You'd have to be really short-sighted if you think they only do this to make money and not care about gamers and their customers.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
The trouble with modding in Skyrim is it's broken as fuck. You have to have some kind of curation and reliability. And the curation doesnt even have to be human. Valve likes to take them out of the equation. But when you require hack's and unverified software's and procedures it's impossible.
No matter what Valve or Bethesda think's they cannot avoid culpability with mod's. They cant just say you paid for this, it's your problem. If it requires certain other thing's which could break your game and even PC. I mean I could probably with the way it's set up in Skyrim make a mod that breaks on purpose after two week's. Maybe I could I even make a mod that steal's data from your PC.
Paying for mod's is a great idea. But not in this broken established game, where the proprietor's avoid all culpability and curation.
No matter what Valve or Bethesda think's they cannot avoid culpability with mod's. They cant just say you paid for this, it's your problem. If it requires certain other thing's which could break your game and even PC. I mean I could probably with the way it's set up in Skyrim make a mod that breaks on purpose after two week's. Maybe I could I even make a mod that steal's data from your PC.
Paying for mod's is a great idea. But not in this broken established game, where the proprietor's avoid all culpability and curation.
Most modern games contain a telemetry reporter that sends the developers information for use in later games, like average lifespan, key areas visited, completion status, and if they load up any features. It'd be pretty easy to see how many people initiated the loading of a mod.
The only two publishers I know of that let you turn telemetry off in their games are Nintendo and EA.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Uh, so my friend wants to know, like if they can tell what kinds of mods? I'm only asking because my friend may or may not have made all horses into majestic unicorns. He'd be embarrassed to let people know that. My friend, that is.
CyclopsRock
Member
No, that's not what I was disagreeing with. I mean, it's not universally the case - the are all kinds of mobile phone apps developed by individuals, including on Android where the number of potential set ups between OS version and hardware is significant - and many of those truck on just fine. But that's not what I was disagreeing with.
I was disagreeing with the idea that there needs to be more support for paid mods than for donation based ones. I mean, I thought that was pretty clear from what I wrote. Of course they have different definitions, but in this case they both amount to the same thing, I think. Fundamentally, though, I don't think there needs to be many/any sweeping changes to Steam's infrastructure in order for mods to be made payable. I think it's sensible to offer a 12 hour refund or similar, in case it flat out doesn't work with your configuration. Beyond that, though, I think that if you're not convinced a modder is trustworthy, or likely to keep updating it, simply don't buy it. Again, this is the same with mobile phone apps. Some of them are donation based. Some are totally free. Some are paid. I don't think anyone would put forward the argument that smart phones would be better if there were no paid apps. Some of them have great customer service (even if it's just one person developing it), some not good. Do your research, utilise the refund, everything's OK in the world. The good mods prosper, the bad ones don't, some mods can be donation based, some will be free. Yaaaay. The power should be with the modder to set the price, and the customer to decide if it's worth it or not.
LIke with any statistics, it's most likely anonymous. He'll be fine. I know now.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
It really wasn't clear, which is why I asked. But, you clear it up here. Suffice it to say, I disagree pretty damn strongly, but since it's all academic at this point there really isn't anything further to add on this point.
That's intentionally vague: "hey Valve could make donate button awesome in some unspecified way which is the secret sauce". How do we expect Valve to embellish a donate-to-developer function? It is already visible, easily reachable and functional in Nexus and proven not effective by two prominent mods.
Yeah :/
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Only if you call a giant picture with a big red circle on it "unspecified." You're still not really reading posts, man. You're not dumb or anything, but you clearly don't feel the need to read posts before engaging. Disagree with me all you want, but at least read (or in this case, just casually look) at the posts.
CyclopsRock
Member
It sounds like what you want is third party DLC.
For what it's worth, though, there's another way. There's a website where you can buy 3D models called Turbosquid. They have all sorts of models on there, some of which are great, some are terrible. Some give you loads of information about their contents, some much less. It's a bit of a gamble but you'd be an idiot to buy one of the ones that doesn't give you much information. However, they have addressed this problem by having a programme called CheckMate Pro wherein there is a team of curaters there who basically give it a seal of approval. You could have this for mod makers, where they apply (and pay, presumably, since you can't expect people to do that QA for free) to join such a scheme wherein they have a seal of approval. If you don't want to, you don't have to, but then you're in the wild west - proceed with caution.
This still doesn't solve the problem of people not updating mods to be compatible with new host patches, though.
Yes and I have already answered that it is not far off from Nexus button placement.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
RandyBobandy
Banned
I don't get paid for my time and effort when I do charity work, how's this any different? If they don't want to put time and effort into a mod and not get paid, then simply, don't do it?
No one is forcing them to do it. And guess what, if they don't create a mod, someone else will
Ya'll are acting like these people are slave labours who don't get paid for working when in fact it's just people creating mods in their free time because they want to
Modding = charity?
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yes and I have already answered that it is not far off from Nexus button placement.
Nope. Already talked about that too. And for added bonus, let's look at another top 5 mod.
Bnet real name fiasco, Xbox One original vision, Paid Skyrim mods (and ive forgotten a ton of others)
I am sure someone can go and create a comprehensive list to show, how yes, if enough people raise a stink, it will be heard. Yes i understand that there will always be people who are mad at anything, but at some point you hit that critical numbers where its no longer just "a few whining whiners" and "ok this is a problem now".
I am sure someone can go and create a comprehensive list to show, how yes, if enough people raise a stink, it will be heard. Yes i understand that there will always be people who are mad at anything, but at some point you hit that critical numbers where its no longer just "a few whining whiners" and "ok this is a problem now".
He doesn't have a donate button. Okay what's the lesson to be derived from that? How does that counter SkyUI's situation?Nope. Already talked about that too. And for added bonus, let's look at another top 5 mod.
While it is visible, it is the 4th button on a row at the opposite side of Download, on very top right of the screen, on a site where you don't go with your
The simplest Steam implementation would be WanderingWind's image where the brig green Donate button is on the left (thus read first) side of Download button and nothing else.
Now, if Valve really wants to push donations psychologically, they'll make "Donate & Download" 1 button, and clicking on it will pop-up a window where you set your donation, defaulted on recommended donation, and then you get to download
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
...did I say it countered that, or did I say "as an added bonus." Man, I keep trying to work with you here, but you are not working with me in good faith. I really don't understand. I talked about the difference between Nexus and personal blog space versus Steam previously in posts you've replied to. I also mentioned that paying modders wasn't a real discussion being had anywhere until this week, at least not at this level. I've pointed out other services that have worked off what are essentially donations, from Kickstarter to Twitch. The issue is far from settled and I'm always open to discussing, but I am beyond over talking with people who think the issue is divided between people who want to be paid for their work and some entitled gamer boogeyman.
CyclopsRock
Member
Surely the only reason you'd combine them like this is to get people to donate before they've downloaded it, no?
Ban Puncher
Member
Those poor 'angry gamer' youtubbers and their now worthless rant videos about the paid mods on Steam they prepared for monetisation over the weekend.
Vallen Valiant
Banned
I like the way Shovel Knight does with how they sell the soundtrack, yo basically download via the donation button and you would have to deliberately type 0 dollars in order to not donate. It is still your choice, but you had to actively say no to it.
eot
Banned
I hate the sarcastic "good thing people can't get paid for their work" type comments.
This isn't some great injustice wrought upon starving artists. Nobody gets into modding expecting to make money and this isn't taking food of their tables. There is a part of life that isn't about making money, that's about enjoying what you're doing, enjoying enriching other people's lives. Tons of people do it, put on free concerts, plays, organise various types of events, competitions etc. Hell, even moderate these forums. It's a good thing, not something that needs to be corrected.
This isn't some great injustice wrought upon starving artists. Nobody gets into modding expecting to make money and this isn't taking food of their tables. There is a part of life that isn't about making money, that's about enjoying what you're doing, enjoying enriching other people's lives. Tons of people do it, put on free concerts, plays, organise various types of events, competitions etc. Hell, even moderate these forums. It's a good thing, not something that needs to be corrected.
Yes, think of all the poor children that bought Skyrim for their PC but can't afford the official dlc.
An optional donation system would work incredibly well on Steam. Got some steamwallet cash from selling a few cards? Give it to modders whose work you enjoy. Mind you, if they added Steam badges for donating X and Y amounts then it'd work even better.
Also, there's no need to be rude to people who don't want to pay for something they've always gotten for free. It's not exactly an easy change.
RipperGrim
Member
Lol sometimes it feels like it is, Durante and others fix games for us out of their own free will and time and they "donate" the files to us so we can play our games.
My mods require the DLCs as dependancies and I'm amazed that there's still a couple of people complaining about that.
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