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[MrChocolate]

Why not? She is 24. She is mentally ill.
You wanna try to cure her? Where do you draw the line between her choice, and her choice as a mentally ill person?
If the girl feels she is a burden to society and wants to end her life, more power to her. Whatever it takes to avoid side effects (see: Jumping from a building and falling over a pedestrian)

 

[Air]

For those who are for what this girl did, I encourage you to read this article. Medical science has come a long way with its ability to treat depression.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/14/health/battery-powered-brain/

Edit it's not a cure all, but there's always progress to be made. She could have benefitted from this.

 

[Dawg]

How did she file for the "dead wish"? I mean if she's not of sound mind I don't get how she's able to make medical decisions for herself.

Suffering from severe depression has nothing to do with not being "of sound mind", though.

That makes it sound like a person suffering from depression can't think straight. For most people, this is an illness that will stay with you for the rest of your life. It will become a part of you. Some people defeat it. Other people learn to live with it, most actually.

But there's also a third group of people. People who simply cannot defeat it. There are a lot of variables going on. Every situation is different. And I honestly believe there are cases that cannot be solved. At least not with our current understanding of the human brain. So if a person decided life is unbearable for them, I respect their decision to pick euthanasia.

Her response sums it all up, really. What some of you are saying in this thread is the same thing she's been hearing for years. That she shouldn't be allowed to do it. That she is still young. She has her entire life ahead of her.

Yet...

She's been suffering for years. Since her childhood. To her, people on the internet judging her for this are just strangers who don't know her. She has to live her life, not you. So I think it is very disrespectful and shitty to disagree with her choice. Especially if you have no idea what her situation is.

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

In this particular case three doctors had to confirm that the condition of the patient is incurable and approve with the euthanasia. She also had to file her dead wish several times. The whole procedure took about 1.5 years.

I'd say this is a pretty important thing to highlight. It was handled by assuring she underwent other types of care first to see if anything could be done with current standards before granting her access to the euthanasia option. It wasn't a snap decision, like how standard suicide can be, but one that required thought, proper medical attention, and time. She has been suffering for most of her life and was not getting any better. "It'll get better" isn't a guarantee, especially at the relatively slow rate that mental health improvements are made compared to other medical fields. For someone who is truly depressed, every day they wait is living in hell that nobody else but them can experience.

Personally, I hate to see anyone have to go. But I think for those who are truly at the end of their line - driven by a decade or more of being put on medications that don't work, continuous suffering, and suicidal ideation - should be given an ethical and peaceful manner out as opposed to far more violent methods which could lead to injury or death of others as well, or cause mental issues from having witnessed a person commit suicide.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

A lot of people simply cannot understand someone wanting to end their life. Partially because they don't understand. Thing is, if you're in good health (mentally and physically) yourself, it's difficult to place yourselves in the position of someone who isn't. In a way, it's hard to blame them. They don't want to lose you. They know something is wrong, but will tell you to chin up and to try and think of the good times and cetera. They believe things will become better.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Unless those people are with you everyday, I think it's kinda selfish. Everyone always 'cares' about others, but it's not really fair to be against euthanasia... just because you don't want them to die. At the end of the day, most people (unless they're the SO or live together) giving the "you'll get better" advice part ways and return to their own place. They don't have to deal with the ugly side of the problem.

So that's why it usually takes hands-on experience to be okay with someone wanting to die in a peaceful way. Because it's very difficult to understand just how bad mental issues can be.

Very well said. Some very ugly truths behind the relationships many depressed people have with those who don't suffer. It's a struggle for both parties, but usually only one of them is really towing the line.

 

[aygomyownroad]

How long before this becomes reality?

Should be for terminal patients only. This opens a whole can of worms

 

[HK-47]

Like with physical illness, there should be a vetting process in place to distinguish between treatable and terminal illness. To support euthanasia for physical disease and deny it for mental disease is a hateful double standard. This girl is going through a doctor-assisted process of euthanasia. She has clearly sought help, and this is clearly not the first step in he treatment plan.

I prefer to think of the process of recovery as the process of reconciliation. When recovery is not possible, all possible remaining outcomes must be respected.

When a terminal cancer patient seeks euthanasia, he might be depressed. Depression is a mental illness. Would you deny his request because he "can't be trusted to take care of himself"?

We understand physical illness much better than we do mental illness. And generally cancer doesnt mess with the ability to reason and think about an option like euthanasia.

 

[Docflem]

Yep, her life and her choice.

No, it wasn't "her life, her choice." She didn't kill herself, she was killed by a team of people, they all made choices and they do have ramifications. I doubt anyone here could produce a good number of studies that suggest that depression is not a treatable condition. In fact she only got 3 doctors to approve this, I personally know more doctors than that who would not agree to this.

 

[MikeDip]

Like with physical illness, there should be a vetting process in place to distinguish between treatable and terminal illness. To support euthanasia for physical disease and deny it for mental disease is a hateful double standard. This girl is going through a doctor-assisted process of euthanasia. She has clearly sought help, and this is clearly not the first step in he treatment plan.

I prefer to think of the process of recovery as the process of reconciliation. When recovery is not possible, all possible remaining outcomes must be respected.

When a terminal cancer patient seeks euthanasia, he might be depressed. Depression is a mental illness. Would you deny his request because he "can't be trusted to take care of himself"?

But by their very nature mental and physical problems are different. You can't make blanket statements and treat them the same even if the things they cause feel similar.

The terminal cancer patient with depression is a completely different situation. I am not saying people with mental illness can't make life choices, that's crazy. I am saying that trusting them to make decisions for the very mental illness they have is the problem. In the cancer patient example you used they aren't making a decision based on their depression, they are making a decision based on their terminal cancer.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

You misread. I said it's only barely stopped developing.

Whoops, my bad.

 

[Dawg]

For those who are for what this girl did, I encourage you to read this article. Medical science has come a long way with its ability to treat depression.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/14/health/battery-powered-brain/

Edit it's not a cure all, but there's always progress to be made. She could have benefitted from this.

Progress doesn't equal a solution, though. There has been a lot of progress in medical science regarding mental illness, but who knows how long it will take to get results. And who knows it will even work on her? Every single situation is different.

I don't think she is waiting on someone to tell her "there's always progress to be made", especially not when you consider how many doctors are backing her.

 

[Zaptruder]

For those who are for what this girl did, I encourage you to read this article. Medical science has come a long way with its ability to treat depression.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/14/health/battery-powered-brain/

Edit it's not a cure all, but there's always progress to be made. She could have benefitted from this.

It's possible that the cure for her depression already exists.

Or it's as possible that the cure for her depression might be 50 years away.

Do we ask a person to suffer for 2 more life times in the vain hope that she'll one day find a cure?

We make the best decisions we can with the information we have available to us. It is unreasonable to ask for more - to ask people to see into the future in order to maximize the utility of their decisions now.

 

[excelsiorlef]

People against this should mind their own business.

Yep.

 

[Tigress]

If she has been that way since childhood...I can somewhat understand. I'm not sure I believe absolutely everybody can recover from depression like that, or at the very least that she would ever have the will to.

This.

Honestly, yes, some people can be helped. But sometimes they cannot too. If she's tried over and over and nothing has helped, is it really kind to force her to keep living a miserable life where she has to keep struggling and never be happy? Just because some people who don't even know her situation some how think they know what's best for her?

I know it's kinda a slippery slope and how do you tell when some one cannot be helped?

 

[braves01]

Good for her. I hope she finds comfort.

 

[E-phonk]

I'll translate some other questions they asked her, just because getting her point of view is important imo.

Original:

Was it hard to convince the three doctors who's approve you needed for the procedure?
You have to account for your suffering, different times at different doctors. That can be very hard but luckily talking about euthanasia goes easy for me. Especially the talks with Lieve Thienpont (psychiatrist) were really enjoyable. She gave me the feeling, for the first time, that I got recognised in who I was, both in my power to fight it and the suffering I had to endure.

The biggest fight was the waiting. It's a long procedure, which I do understand because it's not a decision you take light hearted.
The further along you are in the process the more intense it becomes. When will there be an medical advice, and what will it be?

Your euthanasia is planned for this summer. What are you going to do 'till then?
I have no big wishes anymore, no travel plans or anything. I just really want to do the things that my friends and the people I care for want to do with me.

Ever since I was able to talk about euthanasia with the people around me, and especially now that I know I will leave this summer, a huge burden has fallen of my shoulders. I have always had a hidden agenda, and had to keep quite about it, but now that I can talk about it I feel so relieved.
I am almost freed from my pains and internal struggle, but I know ofcourse that for my friends and family who is left behind the mourning has just started now.
So I want to do everything I can to be there for them. It would be egoistic not to be there for them and sharing our last moments together.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Really hope that with time many more countries apply this rights.

Here is me hoping that one day when I'm sick of living I am given the opportunity to end it with dignity. Say goodbye to your family and then check out with little to no pain. What better end can one wish? I'd rather end it this way then to have to drag myself though my old years. What's the point? One day you have to die anyway.

 

[Air]

Progress doesn't equal a solution, though. There has been a lot of progress in medical science regarding mental illness, but who knows how long it will take to get results. And who knows it will even work on her? Every single situation is different.

I don't think she is waiting on someone to tell her "there's always progress to be made", especially not when you consider how many doctors are backing her.

My point, again is that it doesn't make sense to bow out when things get hard. I don't know if she did anything like the article suggested, but if she didn't there's a real chance she could have gotten better, enough to want to fight longer, but we won't ever know if she could have been saved because she succumbed to her depression. Again, I don't know that you can really trust the mind of the mentally ill, due to the amount of distortion in their perception of reality.

I don't know if I can get behind the backing of the doctors either, it comes across as 'welp, this is hopeless'.

 

[Prez]

Mental healthcare sucks in Belgium. Most psychologists and therapists do little to actually help. Most psychiatrists prescribe the wrong meds because they're being paid by pharmaceutical companies. Interventions and group therapy consist of doing dumb activities with other depressed people. I can see why our suicide rate is so high.

 

[Red]

But by their very nature mental and physical problems are different. You can't make blanket statements and treat them the same even if the things they cause feel similar.

The terminal cancer patient with depression is a completely different situation. I am not saying people with mental illness can't make life choices, that's crazy. I am saying that trusting them to make decisions for the very mental illness they have is the problem. In the cancer patient example you used they aren't making a decision based on their depression, they are making a decision based on their terminal cancer.

She would have simply killed herself if she was making a decision on her own. She sought medical advice and is being counseled by doctors.

 

[Dawg]

Mental healthcare sucks in Belgium. Most psychologists and therapists do little to actually help. Most psychiatrists prescribe the wrong meds because they're being paid by pharmaceutical companies. Interventions and group therapy consist of doing dumb activities with other depressed people. I can see why our suicide rate is so high.

...wat

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

Edit: Estoy idiota.

 

[MikeDip]

Mental healthcare sucks in Belgium. Most psychologists and therapists do little to actually help. Most psychiatrists prescribe the wrong meds because they're paid by pharmaceutical companies. Interventions and group therapy consist of doing dumb activities with other depressed people. I can see why our suicide rate is so high.

I don't know anything about the Belgium situation so I didn't want to say, but it is a good point that really does need consideration.

Mental health services are pretty bad in a lot of places. We are getting better as a whole I think, but they are still very problematic.

I don't trust this field to make the very specific call on "being out of options". Hell even medicine is basically a crap shoot in this field. I know people who had to go through a LARGE variety of pills to finally get to one that worked for them.

 

[maquiladora]

The doctors should be convicted for murder.

Seriously?

 

[Irminsul]

My point, again is that it doesn't make sense to bow out when things get hard. I don't know if she did anything like the article suggested, but if she didn't there's a real chance she could have gotten better, enough to want to fight longer, but we won't ever know if she could have been saved because she succumbed to her depression. Again, I don't know that you can really trust the mind of the mentally ill, due to the amount of distortion in their perception of reality.

I don't know if I can get behind the backing of the doctors either, it comes across as 'welp, this is hopeless'.

Most of these arguments can be used against physical illnesses too. Even with terminal ones, having a literally 0% chance of treating them is rather rare.

If there's very little chance that her condition gets better, why does it matter whether it's physical or mental? The suffering is there in both cases.

 

[Air]

It's possible that the cure for her depression already exists.

Or it's as possible that the cure for her depression might be 50 years away.

Do we ask a person to suffer for 2 more life times in the vain hope that she'll one day find a cure?

We make the best decisions we can with the information we have available to us. It is unreasonable to ask for more - to ask people to see into the future in order to maximize the utility of their decisions now.

We ask people to suffer all the time. I don't see how this would be any different. She wanted to kill herself due to suffering for about 24 years. However, there are people, as others have said that have gotten better later on in their life and are probably very grateful they hand not killed themselves. I believe that if the minds of the mentally depressed can be cured eventually, than they would believe it to be worth it, no matter if they have a couple of years left or 20.

Like I see why people are cheering for her and being supportive, but I do think this 1. Sets a bad precedent for a government and 2. Gives those of unsound mind a way to make critical decisions for them, where they wouldn't have been in charge in any other scenario.

 

[MikeDip]

The doctors should be convicted for murder.

Well no, that's ridiculous. They are in the legal boundaries of the law.

 

[Dawg]

The doctors should be convicted for murder.

What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this thread is now dumber for having read to it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

How long before this becomes reality?

Should be for terminal patients only. This opens a whole can of worms

Like Infinite years +1 come on.

 

[StayDead]

She was granted the right to die with dignity. Judging by what she said in her interview and how long she'd suffered from depression she most likely would've commited suicide anyway. This way atleast she didn't need to hurt anyone else by doing it and her family got time to come to terms with things.

It's not a perfect situation as depression can be treatable, but if someone really wants to die that much then I'd rather them have the option to seek medical help like this rather than jumping in front of a train.

During the time leading up to her euthanasia she could recieve treatment for her depression and she would be able to back out at any time. If she just commited suicide in the more traditional methods doctors wouldn't have had that chance to give her treatment.

 

[kmax]

I will never agree to this. What a terrible precedent.

Unless you're terminally ill, you can get better. There is always hope.

 

[MikeDip]

Most of these arguments can be used against physical illnesses too. Even with terminal ones, having a literally 0% chance of treating them is rather rare.

If there's very little chance that her condition gets better, why does it matter whether it's physical or mental? The suffering is there in both cases.

Our knowledge of physical illness is much greater (But not complete, obviously). And currently, mental health treatment uses a hell of a lot more trial and error type solutions. This is very different than trying all main options for terminal cancer and being out of options minus a miracle cure that probably won't be ready for use before you are dead. The fields are so beyond those of mental health that it is a silly comparison.

 

[MrChom]

If you're going to advocate for assisted suicide then this is one of those points you have to defend from time to time, I suppose.

First of all...it's her body, and her mind. If there's truly no way around this, if the avenues have been exhausted, and this is her wish then I don't think there's anything we should really do other than ensure those avenues are truly devoid of alternatives.

Secondly, this seems to have been backed up by multiple medical professionals, and defended in a court of law. I'll be honest here and say most of the opinions on GAF don't carry that kind of weight.

Thirdly there's still some time before her euthanasia...time she has to reconsider now she's free of the burden of defending one of our most basic rights, the right to stop existing.

Now…I'll probably never agree with what this young woman's doing, despite having been through bouts of suicidal thoughts myself, and been convinced there was no hope. For me things changed...but my disagreeing with it does not mean that her right to die should be taken from her because the rest of us find it distasteful.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The doctors should be convicted for murder.

And let me guess she should be locked up (since she's not dead yet) so she won't hurt herself too?

Excellent solution :|

 

[MikeDip]

Thanks for the translation help Ephonk. It would be interesting to know a bit more about what treatment types were applied and the extent, the rigorousness, with which she went through risk assessments and mental state exams, and by whom and how many.

I would like to know this as well but I assume that information isn't available

 

[E-phonk]

She was granted the right to die with dignity. Judging by what she said in her interview and how long she'd suffered from depression she most likely would've commited suicide anyway. This way atleast she didn't need to hurt anyone else by doing it and her family got time to come to terms with things.

It's not a perfect situation as depression can be treatable, but if someone really wants to die that much then I'd rather them have the option to seek medical help like this rather than jumping in front of a train.

During the time leading up to her euthanasia she could recieve treatment for her depression and she would be able to back out at any time. If she just commited suicide in the more traditional methods doctors wouldn't have had that chance to give her treatment.

Yeah, agree. The debate about how treatable it is, isn't even that important to me.

She clearly had a dead wish, she had it for a long time, and I'm glad there are ways for people to seek comfort in dead with respect and dignity to those around them.

 

[HK-47]

Our knowledge of physical illness is much greater (But not complete, obviously). And currently, mental health treatment uses a hell of a lot more trial and error type solutions. This is very different than trying all main options for terminal cancer and being out of options minus a miracle cure that probably won't be ready for use before you are dead. The fields are so beyond those of mental health that it is a silly comparison.

Usually people give mental health no credit. Never seen so many give it too much credit.

 

[excelsiorlef]

We ask people to suffer all the time. I don't see how this would be any different. She wanted to kill herself due to suffering for about 24 years. However, there are people, as others have said that have gotten better later on in their life and are probably very grateful they hand not killed themselves. I believe that if the minds of the mentally depressed can be cured eventually, than they would believe it to be worth it, no matter if they have a couple of years left or 20.

Like I see why people are cheering for her and being supportive, but I do think this 1. Sets a bad precedent for a government and 2. Gives those of unsound mind a way to make critical decisions for them, where they wouldn't have been in charge in any other scenario.

Yes but you aren't asking her, if you had your way you'd be telling her, forcing her.

 

[Condom]

I'm in the no side. I would have been dead already if this was a possibility for me. Even though I feel relatively good now.

 

[Golicz]

She needs psychiatric help, not assisted suicide. Death shouldn't be an option, at all.

 

[gai_shain]

I will never agree to this. What a terrible precedent.

Unless you're terminally ill, you can get better. There is always hope.

This has been possible in Belgium for quite some time iirc. So no this case probably doesnt set any precedent

 

[daniels]

I wonder how long it took "doctors" to comfortably ignore the fact that her death wish is the treatable depression talking ...

 

[Frog-fu]

People against this should mind their own business.

I don't know which posts bother me more, the one that made it about the family in reference to a suicidal 18 year, i.e. someone who has barely lived, the shameful "Haters gonna hate" post, or posts like this.

The very concept of society precludes this bullshit notion that every man is an island. Euthanasia doesn't just affect the people that want it performed on them. It affects all of us. As a society we cure the ill, we help those that need help - we don't kill them, and considering get precedent this awful ruling sets, people are well within their rights opposing any notion of the state sanctioning non-terminal sufferers of mental illness to off themselves, let alone assisting them in the deed.

 

[Principate]

Like Infinite years +1 come on.

Hahah no, if your not honestly believe that such concepts are beyond humanity you are extremely naïve and history has taught you nothing. All you have to do is look at the issue the world currently has as well as rampart corruption and humanitarian issues in various countries, to know how far people can go.

 

[DragonSworne]

I would not make claims like "people can always get better" when discussing mental illness and decisions doctors and patients make together.

You have no say in her medical care. Preventing someone from committing suicide with the consent of a doctor is the most cruel thing imaginable.

 

[Strangelove77]

I like this a lot. I've been depressed for over 20 years now. Which is to say most of my life.
It's always been kind of weird for me to see people "stick up" for the preciousness of another's life. It's a concept that doesn't quite register with me. Suicide seems to make non-suicidal people angry more than sad. I completely don't relate. But whatever.

Anyways, she seems to really want this and it seems she has to wait 1.5 years. That should be long enough to seriously over analyze it over and over and over and over. Like she has already.

 

[Air]

Most of these arguments can be used against physical illnesses too. Even with terminal ones, having a literally 0% chance of treating them is rather rare.

If there's very little chance that her condition gets better, why does it matter whether it's physical or mental? The suffering is there in both cases.

I think I have a couple of problems with this. First, I think our pool of knowledge relating to other parts of the body are far more advanced than what we have going for us relating to the brain. Second I think there is definitely a warping of perspective from the victim and how that relates to the decisions the doctors are allowed to make and to what extent they could do their tests (at what point is she withholding information to get what she wants)? Lastly, I wouldn't compare this to a terminal disease, there are cases of depression being treated so it's not a death sentence. I think a more apt comparison would be allowing the government to take the life of someone with phantom limb pain.

Rounding all of this out, I believe it's a duty of society to find a way to help out its citizens as much as possible and to fight to preserve their life. This case really just seems like the antithesis of my beliefs which is perhaps why I come across as so impassioned, but again I understand where others are coming from, I just think the line that's being drawn is too short.

 

[glaurung]

How long before this becomes reality?

Should be for terminal patients only. This opens a whole can of worms

It took three pages to post this? GAF, I am disappointed.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

After reading her response and assuming she received medication and therapy during her stay at a psychiatric hospital I am willing to agree with the decision to let her make the choice to end her life. Even though I have my own personal moral conundrums when it comes to suicide I realize it is incorrect to want my ideologies applied to all. I wouldn't be able to live soundly knowing I denied someone the ability to end their suffering, committing them to a potential life of misery. Yes, she may have been able to 'get better' in the future, but she may also have lived another 50 years of absolute hell.

 

[Dawg]

My point, again is that it doesn't make sense to bow out when things get hard. I don't know if she did anything like the article suggested, but if she didn't there's a real chance she could have gotten better, enough to want to fight longer, but we won't ever know if she could have been saved because she succumbed to her depression. Again, I don't know that you can really trust the mind of the mentally ill, due to the amount of distortion in their perception of reality.

I don't know if I can get behind the backing of the doctors either, it comes across as 'welp, this is hopeless'.

What if it... is hopeless?

I know I would pick death if I had to chose between authanasia and "ehm, maybe things will eventually get better."

There's a point where doctors can't help you anymore when it comes to mental illness.

 

[Zaptruder]

We ask people to suffer all the time. I don't see how this would be any different. She wanted to kill herself due to suffering for about 24 years. However, there are people, as others have said that have gotten better later on in their life and are probably very grateful they hand not killed themselves. I believe that if the minds of the mentally depressed can be cured eventually, than they would believe it to be worth it, no matter if they have a couple of years left or 20.

Like I see why people are cheering for her and being supportive, but I do think this 1. Sets a bad precedent for a government and 2. Gives those of unsound mind a way to make critical decisions for them, where they wouldn't have been in charge in any other scenario.

Depression doesn't mean someone is of an unsound mind.

If I was in constant emotional pain, with no sign of possible resolution, i'd be surprised if I didn't consider suicide.

Certainly, we don't ask terminally physically ill patients to get over it, or tell them they should hold out in the hope that there's a cure.

I don't see why we'd set a different standard for those with a mental issue.

Unless you're just arguing against euthanasia in general, in which case, I won't even bother engaging further (it's another discussion, for another thread).