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[Neoxon]

I'd be shocked if Mario Kart 9 isn't well underway right now. That will be a year 1 or 2 game for sure.

As for Smash Bros 5, I'm fairly certain that Smash has an average development cycle of a bit over 2 years. If development starts on Smash 5 sometime next year, it could definitely be ready at a reasonable time.

Smash 4 DLC will probably end in Early 2016, so Smash 5 could be done by 2018 to if they start right away.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

He was referring to the install base, saying that they weren't going to just release games that only NX owners could play since their current machines as a major source of their business and they don't want to cut them off as soon as NX launches.



If anything, that suggests backward compatibility (or cross-gen development) will be in, at least for Wii U, since one of the problems NX is supposed to solve is the problem of staggered releases during a new console launch.

Oh crumbs, of course! Nice to know, I'll keep that in mind as I've been throwing that quote around a lot lately. I don't think that makes a better case for backwards compatibility mind, when Nintendo knows early adopters will already own either a 3DS or Wii U.

NX will solve the long gaps between Nintendo releases as developers can target both NX handheld and NX console at once much like developers can target iPhone and iPad and provide optimisations based on screen real estate and relative device power.

 

[Calamari41]

They can. A 3D Mario & a Zelda U port are more than enough for the system's launch. And besides, if any Smash game should get re-released, it's Melee. More likely than not, Smash 5 will take many cues from 4, so releasing 4 on the NX would take away some hype. Melee was long enough ago to not step on Smash 5's toes. Plus, as EVO proved, Melee is the most popular Smash game. Just add online & a NTSC/PAL balancing switch & it'll sell like hotcakes.

I'd be shocked if Mario Kart 9 isn't well underway right now. That will be a year 1 or 2 game for sure.

As for Smash Bros 5, I'm fairly certain that Smash has an average development cycle of a bit over 2 years. If development starts on Smash 5 sometime next year, it could definitely be ready at a reasonable time.

I think they would be wise, then, to make Kart 9 and Smash 5 "straight" sequels, rather than building from the ground up as they tend to do. Get them out sooner, and allow for more retro tracks in Kart and fighters/stages in Smash.

If this is the case, I could see Mario Kart 9 coming early in the first year of the NX, and Smash 5 coming at the system's first holiday after launch.

 

[Rodin]

Since the ARM11 is so old, it will be tough to find a direct comparison. The first ARMv7-A core, the Cortex A8, supposedly executes 40% more instructions than the ARM11 at the same clock speed.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2798/5

The A9 shows 50% performance improvement over A8.

http://www.arm.com/products/processors/cortex-a/cortex-a9.php

You can follow the rest of the trail over at the ARM website. The A7 is slightly lower performance than the A9, but much more energy efficient. The A53 boasts a 30% to 50% improvement over the A7. This is all at the same clock, so yeah, if they go w/ a quad core A53 at decent clocks, we would be looking at a considerable leap.



Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in-order vs out-of-order is something which mostly concerns your compiler. Basically, if they use the handheld as the baseline, they shouldn't run into any problems. I was thinking more about old Wii U code causing an issue, but that's nothing that can't be sorted out, especially considering the wizardry they are currently working w/ 3DS ports.

Ok, thanks. If that's the case i can see it happening, but i still think a dual core A57 would be a better fit so i still hope they considered it.

Yeah, I'd like them to go for PowerVR for both. The "GXA6850" in the iPad Air 2 is a pretty close match for Tegra's X1, and I could see something similar shipping in the NX console. I guess whatever finds its way into this year's iPad Air 3 or iPad Pro might be a good indicator of what PowerVR design might be in the NX.

It's around 230GFLOPs for the Air 2 vs 512 for X1. The only viable PowerVR option for the home is the GT7900, a 819GFLOPs GPU that is the perfect fit for an "affordable gaming console" according to Imagination. But we're pretty sure they went with AMD, and i'll be a little pissed if they used something less powerful than that.



About Smash and Mario Kart "remasters"... There's no way they'll port MK8 instead of building a new game. Smash i can see it happening since Sakurai is too stressed to work to another full Smash game, and "4" is extremely popular even in the competitive scene, so they could release a definitive edition with all the content from both the 3DS and the WiiU version, some graphical enhancements for the home and a few nice extras like an adventure mode (also, a classic mode that doesn't suck would be very appreciated, but i'll take the 3DS version with a few more stages if they won't do it).

 

[Neoxon]

I think they would be wise, then, to make Kart 9 and Smash 5 "straight" sequels, rather than building from the ground up as they tend to do. Get them out sooner, and allow for more retro tracks in Kart and fighters/stages in Smash.

If this is the case, I could see Mario Kart 9 coming early in the first year of the NX, and Smash 5 coming at the system's first holiday after launch.

Then people will complain about the games being too much like what came before.

 

[LegendofLex]

Oh crumbs, of course! Nice to know, I'll keep that in mind as I've been throwing that quote around a lot lately. I don't think that makes a better case for backwards compatibility mind, when Nintendo knows early adopters will already own either a 3DS or Wii U.

NX will solve the long gaps between Nintendo releases as developers can target both NX handheld and NX console at once much like developers can target iPhone and iPad and provide optimisations based on screen real estate and relative device power.

Iwata was referring to problems with a lack of software at the launch of a new system - specifically the problem of porting games across generations - not just problems with making software for two different platforms. He also specifically said they were going to build a system that could take advantage of the software they've developed for Wii U. I added the quote to my last post, but I'll include it again here, too:

For example, currently it requires a huge amount of effort to port Wii software to Nintendo 3DS because not only their resolutions but also the methods of software development are entirely different. The same thing happens when we try to port Nintendo 3DS software to Wii U. If the transition of software from platform to platform can be made simpler, this will help solve the problem of game shortages in the launch periods of new platforms.
[...]
In this perspective, while we are only going to be able to start this [eliminating the problem of starting from scratch with each platform] with the next system, it will become important for us to accurately take advantage of what we have done with the Wii U architecture [to make a system that can easily accept Wii U software]. It of course does not mean that we are going to use exactly the same architecture as Wii U, but we are going to create a system that can absorb the Wii U architecture adequately. When this [creating this system, the one that can absorb the Wii U architecture] happens, home consoles and handheld devices will no longer be completely different, and they will become like brothers in a family of systems.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/140130qa/02.html

If they don't bake in Wii U backward compatibility, their new system won't in fact solve the problem they're saying it will for at least another hardware cycle. Not only that, but all the software they've been getting to work on Wii U won't be able to work on their new platforms. I can't imagine a world where Wii U backward compatibility isn't given at least some kind of priority for the new platform.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

Ok, thanks. If that's the case i can see it happening, but i still think a dual core A57 would be a better fit so i still hope they considered it.


It's around 230GFLOPs for the Air 2 vs 512 for X1. The only viable PowerVR option for the home is the GT7900, a 819GFLOPs GPU that is the perfect fit for an "affordable gaming console" according to Imagination. But we're pretty sure they went with AMD, and i'll be a little pissed if they used something less powerful than that.

Cheers for this! Yeah, AMD seems likely for the console, though I really would love to see an ARM/PowerVR combo as my dream system.

I'm guessing the GT7900 is series 7? Will Series 7 designs debut in consumer products this year? iPhone 6s/iPad Air 3 maybe?

The Apple A9 SoC has to be a big leap forward in CPU/GPU power, being a year for a "tock" in the "tick-tock" cycle (A6 and A7 were two tocks in a row mind), I'm quite looking forward to how it'll pan out.

 

[Calamari41]

Then people will complain about the games being too much like what came before.

People already say that about both series.

 

[foltzie1]

Iwata was referring to problems with a lack of software at the launch of a new system - specifically the problem of porting games across generations - not just problems with making software for two different platforms. He also specifically said they were going to build a system that could take advantage of the software they've developed for Wii U. I added the quote to my last post, but I'll include it again here, too:



If they don't bake in Wii U backward compatibility, their new system won't in fact solve the problem they're saying it will for at least another hardware cycle. Not only that, but all the software they've been getting to work on Wii U won't be able to work on their new platforms. I can't imagine a world where Wii U backward compatibility isn't given at least some kind of priority for the new platform.

Wii U BC in NX is a weird topic. Wii BC seems to have limited the Wii U into having a less flexible CPU, would that continue here, or have they planned ahead and expect to be able to translate Wii U binaries on the fly?

I do not think I can imagine use of a POWER based CPU still, not when everything is moving towards x86-64 and ARM.

Facinating.

 

[The Maverick]

I would hope for the sake of Nintendo that neither their future handheld or console is backwards compatible.

 

[Neoxon]

I would hope for the sake of Nintendo that neither their future handheld or console is backwards compatible.

Why? It's not like Nintendo is gonna get many third party ports anyway (assuming you mean no BC = new architecture & more power), unless you want the system to be cheaper. If I had to choose, the handheld should retain 3DS compatibility.

 

[……forgetit]

I would hope for the sake of Nintendo that neither their future handheld or console is backwards compatible.

The handheld especially, then need to simplify they're interface and the second screen hurts that.

 

[……forgetit]

Why? It's not like Nintendo is gonna get many third party ports anyway (assuming you mean no BC = new architecture & more power), unless you want the system to be cheaper. If I had to choose, the ha shelf should retain 3DS compatibility.

People keep saying this like Nintendo is doomed to be an Island forever, they aten't and they don't want to be one. If anything changes this gen shows that when they do it on their own theuly get significantly smaller consumer bases.

IMO it's try to get third parties or go third party, plain and simple.

 

[Overside]

Iwata was referring to problems with a lack of software at the launch of a new system - specifically the problem of porting games across generations - not just problems with making software for two different platforms. He also specifically said they were going to build a system that could take advantage of the software they've developed for Wii U. I added the quote to my last post, but I'll include it again here, too:



If they don't bake in Wii U backward compatibility, their new system won't in fact solve the problem they're saying it will for at least another hardware cycle. Not only that, but all the software they've been getting to work on Wii U won't be able to work on their new platforms. I can't imagine a world where Wii U backward compatibility isn't given at least some kind of priority for the new platform.

This sounds more like platform universal api's to me, rather than games sofware man.

With 3ds and Wii u, you need two completely different experts, or one person who learned both platforms expertly, to make quality products. That is no small feat.

What I believe Iwata wanted, is to just have to learn one way of doing things, that can work on all platforms.

 

[LegendofLex]

This sounds more like platform universal api's to me, rather than games sofware man.

Then why call out "taking advantage of what we've done with Wii U" specifically? Wii U was apparently a system where they hadn't actually achieved this. And why talk about it in the context of software shortages due to the inability to port games between platforms/generations, if not to suggest that Wii U software will also be able to be ported? And, especially, why start dumping Virtual Console games from even more platforms on Wii U when all that development work will have to be redone (with a substantial cost) for the new platforms all over again, causing the issues people had with Wii --> Wii U yet again?

Wii U BC in NX is a weird topic. Wii BC seems to have limited the Wii U into having a less flexible CPU, would that continue here, or have they planned ahead and expect to be able to translate Wii U binaries on the fly?

I do not think I can imagine use of a POWER based CPU still, not when everything is moving towards x86-64 and ARM.

Facinating.

In case you missed the article from the OP:

But with the 2012-era Nintendo Wii U, IBM provides a PowerPC processor and AMD provides the graphics chip. With Nintendo, AMD would have to come up with an APU that handled both the CPU and GPU functions and be able to handle the PowerPC processing as well (in order to run older Nintendo games).

To create a backward-compatible console for Nintendo, AMD would have to enable a way for the new console to use software translation in order to run older Wii and Wii U games. Since a new APU from AMD would be much more powerful, that software translation seems like it would be easier to do with modern chip technology. Backward compatibility is thus a hurdle for AMD to overcome with Nintendo, but it is not an insurmountable one.

http://venturebeat.com/2015/07/16/more-hints-that-amd-is-building-nintendo-nxs-processor/

The handheld especially, then need to simplify they're interface and the second screen hurts that.

Why can't the handheld play like an Off-TV GamePad when using Wii U software without a TV, and like a Wii U GamePad with TV play when connected to the console? And why can't the new console simply be compatible with the GamePad for Wii U games, requiring it (or the NX handheld) for the games where it's needed and not requiring it for the games where it isn't?

 

[Overside]

Then why call out "taking advantage of what we've done with Wii U" specifically? And why talk about it in the context of software shortages due to the inability to port games between platforms/generations?

He seems to be very pleased with the wii u libraries. First party Wii u games do look and perform great.

This is a very, very good way to increase software throughput, via human resources efficiently.

Instead of needing twice as many people, one set for console, and one set for handheld, or taking twice as much time to be an expert on both platforms, the developers would only need to master one way of doing things, and be fully capable of throughput on all platforms.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I would hope for the sake of Nintendo that neither their future handheld or console is backwards compatible.

After developers blasted Wii U's CPU, I don't think you need to worry that BC will affect the type of system they build. If it's on there, it will be in addition to the new architecture they roll with, and should not take up too much die area.

It's pretty much a guarantee that they use an eDRAM/eSRAM pool in both form-factors anyway, and that's ~1/3 of the BC equation right there.

I understand that people see BC as this negative factor now, after the Wii U design, and with Sony intelligently using PR to downplay it. I believe it's still an important factor, and MS using it as leverage w/ Xbox One is proof that industry higher-ups believe it as well.

We know how "economical" Nintendo are. These are the people that presumably still had blueprints for the Gamecube controller lying around and, rather than make a USB version, made an adapter so they could simply use the old designs! It will be a waste of resources for them to work on porting Wii U games over to NX when they could just keep selling Wii U software exactly as-is. If BC is possible, I think they would be wise to include it.

 

[Pokemaniac]

Wii U BC in NX is a weird topic. Wii BC seems to have limited the Wii U into having a less flexible CPU, would that continue here, or have they planned ahead and expect to be able to translate Wii U binaries on the fly?

I do not think I can imagine use of a POWER based CPU still, not when everything is moving towards x86-64 and ARM.

Facinating.

Wii BC was only limiting because of how they chose to implement it. There are various solutions that could be used to avoid putting them in that situation again. They don't even necessarily have to not include a PowerPC CPU, it just has to be relegated to only BC and OS tasks.

 

[blu]

Even though I don't like this, A53 is the most likely choice for them. Small cores, "decent" performances and low power consumption. And yes, it would be slower than Espresso, because of clock (I don't expect them to fully clock it) and because of performances in general.
Although, I think the wisest choice would be 2xA57 cores and 2xA53 cores.

I think A53 is a very potent little bugger. I've been eyeing a board for a long time now, but they've been either in pre-order or low-supply states.

Wouldn't A15 and A17 be a lot more faster than A53 ?

Of course. I was throwing it in not for the performance levels but because it would be an overall monkey wrench in the discussion - higher perf but even higher power draw, no ARMv8 - all things nintendo might not be looking for in their plans ; )

Also, I wouldn't cross off Cortex A7 for the handheld... yes... I said it, Cortex A7.

Though not out-of-the-question, I think the A53 is the _much_ more likely candidate.

I was thinking the same but isn't the lack of out of order executions a problem with cross development? Also A57 should give them better performances even at a low clock (1-1.2GHZ). Overheating shound't be a problem either in a dual core 1.2GHZ setup for games, with another core or 2 A53 cores reserved to the OS. They could do the same with the home, 6 A57 cores and 2 A53 cores for the OS.

A53 is ultra power efficient for an ARMv8 design. Think A7 levels. There's no way an A57 could beat that.

A57 should beat Espresso even at the same clock, right?

For most scenarios - yes. Especially in SIMD, where it would be a Jaguar/Espresso situation again (A57 has 128-bit ALUs).

Since the ARM11 is so old, it will be tough to find a direct comparison. The first ARMv7-A core, the Cortex A8, supposedly executes 40% more instructions than the ARM11 at the same clock speed.

This is generally true, except for scalar fpu workloads where VFP11 _pummels_ the VFP in the A8.

 

[Rodin]

What if they shrink Espresso and put it in there for bc and to run the OS?

I said they would need 2 A53/57 cores to run it in addition to ~6 for games, this way they can cut those two extra cores. Of course it would cost more but if they need it there for bc they can use it for that task too. Is it viable?

A53 is ultra power efficient for an ARMv8 design. Think A7 levels. There's no way an A57 could beat that.


For most scenarios - yes. Especially in SIMD, where it would be a Jaguar/Espresso situation again (A57 has 128-bit ALUs).

Ok, thanks. I can easily see them going with A53 then, given that oooe vs in order doesn't seem to be an issue.

A57 would be a great fit for the home at this point, but i think AMD hinted at x86 for it.

 

[Neoxon]

People keep saying this like Nintendo is doomed to be an Island forever, they aten't and they don't want to be one. If anything changes this gen shows that when they do it on their own theuly get significantly smaller consumer bases.

IMO it's try to get third parties or go third party, plain and simple.

Or focus less on western third parties (most of whom are a lost cause) & more on Japanese third parties, indies, & mobile devs. Nintendo's on the right track with indies, but they can do more to tend to their needs.

 

[Fourth Storm]

This is generally true, except for scalar fpu workloads where VFP11 _pummels_ the VFP in the A8.

Interesting...and odd.

For most scenarios - yes. Especially in SIMD, where it would be a Jaguar/Espresso situation again (A57 has 128-bit ALUs).

I seem to recall reading a while back, that while capable of 128-bit SIMD, NEON uses 32 64-bit registers. This is the same amount as Gekko/Broadway/Espresso, I believe. Am I mistaken, or is this a potential bottleneck vs Jaguar?

 

[GhostTrick]

I think A53 is a very potent little bugger. I've been eyeing a board for a long time now, but they've been either in pre-order or low-supply states.


Of course. I was throwing it in not for the performance levels but because it would be an overall monkey wrench in the discussion - higher perf but even higher power draw, no ARMv8 - all things nintendo might not be looking for in their plans ; )


Though not out-of-the-question, I think the A53 is the _much_ more likely candidate.


A53 is ultra power efficient for an ARMv8 design. Think A7 levels. There's no way an A57 could beat that.


For most scenarios - yes. Especially in SIMD, where it would be a Jaguar/Espresso situation again (A57 has 128-bit ALUs).


This is generally true, except for scalar fpu workloads where VFP11 _pummels_ the VFP in the A8.

Well, there's a reason why it's so popular in chinese SoC: It offers decent performances.
Especially in multi core configurations. As far as I'm concerned, if I were to do the design for the handheld, my choice would be on 2 fast cores and 2 slower cores. 2x800mhz A57 and 2x1000mhz A53. The two A57 being dedicated to gaming, one of the A53 being OS tasks and the last one being for whatever they want.

A57 cores are really fast but also power hungry and big. Thats why we wont see 4 of them in a handheld. Especially if Nintendo wants a decent GPU. Thats also why iPhones are stucked to dual cores CPU.

 

[blu]

Interesting...and odd.

Well, ARM skimped on the A8 VPF by design.. And it turned out quite the skimp ; )

I seem to recall reading a while back, that while capable of 128-bit SIMD, NEON uses 32 64-bit registers. This is the same amount as Gekko/Broadway/Espresso, I believe. Am I mistaken, or is this a potential bottleneck vs Jaguar?

NEON does 64- and 128-bit semantics, the implementation can do the latter as 2x pass 64bit ALU or in full 128bit ALUs. Think Bobcat vs Jaguar implementing the same ISA (say, SSE3).

ed: sorry, I didn't quite read your question in full. NEON has 16 128-bit registers, true. Jaguar's AVX also has 16 128-bit registers. It's not until AVX512 (or Xeon Phi, if we count that) that Intel's ISA got >16 simd registers. But to answer your direct question: A57 is at no disadvantage vs Jaguar whatsoever.

 

[Oddduck]

Or focus less on western third parties (most of whom are a lost cause) & more on Japanese third parties, indies, & mobile devs. Nintendo's on the right track with indies, but they can do more to tend to their needs.

The problem is many Japanese third parties haven't been giving Nintendo much support either. I don't know if this is a west vs east thing. I don't think it's a cultural issue where Nintendo only understands Japanese publishers.

It's true that Capcom has been supportive with Monster Hunter.

But they didn't bring Street Fighter IV, Resident Evil 6, or DMC to the Wii U. They aren't bringing the remasters of Resident Evil remake and RE4 to the Wii U.

Konami doesn't have much interest in Nintendo outside of releasing old games on the Virtual Console.

Square Enix continues to ignore Nintendo's (non-handheld) consoles when it comes to Kingdom Hearts, Star Ocean, or any mainline Final Fantasy games. Square Enix wouldn't even publish "Life is Strange" or the first "Tomb Raider" reboot on the Wii U.

Nintendo and Namco have a good relationship with Pokken and Smash Bros, but even Namco isn't bringing games like Dark Souls to the Wii U. Tales of Berseria is not coming to the Wii U, but it's coming to PS3 and PS4.

 

[Dreadx_Jecht]

So what happened to that Microsoft buying amd rumor? Lol

 

[Neoxon]

The problem is many Japanese third parties haven't been giving Nintendo much support either. I don't know if this is a west vs east thing.

It's true that Capcom has been supportive with Monster Hunter.

But they didn't bring Street Fighter IV, Resident Evil 6, or DMC to the Wii U. They aren't bringing the remasters of Resident Evil remake and RE4 to the Wii U.

Konami doesn't have much interest in Nintendo outside of releasing old games on the Virtual Console.

Square Enix continues to ignore Nintendo's (non-handheld) consoles when it comes to Kingdom Hearts, Star Ocean, or any mainline Final Fantasy games. Square Enix wouldn't even publish "Life is Strange" or the first "Tomb Raider" reboot on the Wii U.

Nintendo and Namco have a good relationship with Pokken and Smash Bros, but even Namco isn't bringing games like Dark Souls to the Wii U. Tales of Berseria is not coming to the Wii U, but it's coming to PS3 and PS4.

I don't think it's a cultural issue where Nintendo only understands Japanese publishers.

Because many Japanese publishers have been ignoring Nintendo too.

My point is that not all of them are a lost cause, unlike the Japanese devs. Nothing could be done about SFV since Sony's paying for development of that game, but Nintendo can reach out for Capcom's other games. They can also reach out more towards Square-Enix & Namco since they have some kind of relationship with both (Konami's a lost cause to everyone).

 

[10k]

The NX is going to use a quantum processor featuring Iwata's DNA. He will live on through his legacy console!

 

[ZhugeEX]

So if Nintendo do release a dedicated handheld gaming device then what do people think Nintendo will do in order to ensure that users adopt the device in large numbers? We've seen a huge decline in consumers purchasing dedicated handheld gaming hardware recently so Nintendo can't just release 3DSv2 and expect it to do the same as before sales wise.

 

[cyberheater]

what do people think Nintendo will do in order to ensure that users adopt the device in large numbers?.

Give it away for free. Even then I'm not sure it would sell in large numbers.

 

[The Maverick]

After developers blasted Wii U's CPU, I don't think you need to worry that BC will affect the type of system they build. If it's on there, it will be in addition to the new architecture they roll with, and should not take up too much die area.

It's pretty much a guarantee that they use an eDRAM/eSRAM pool in both form-factors anyway, and that's ~1/3 of the BC equation right there.

I understand that people see BC as this negative factor now, after the Wii U design, and with Sony intelligently using PR to downplay it. I believe it's still an important factor, and MS using it as leverage w/ Xbox One is proof that industry higher-ups believe it as well.

We know how "economical" Nintendo are. These are the people that presumably still had blueprints for the Gamecube controller lying around and, rather than make a USB version, made an adapter so they could simply use the old designs! It will be a waste of resources for them to work on porting Wii U games over to NX when they could just keep selling Wii U software exactly as-is. If BC is possible, I think they would be wise to include it.

What is the point of Wii U compatibility? They refuse to unchain the system to the gamepad, requiring it to surf the interface. So you'd have to have the pad to even play Wii U games. The only people that will own one already own the Wii U. I don't see the point. Port Zelda and call it a day.

With the 3DS, the dual screens, resolution, architecture, are all things that Nintendo should avoid on their next handheld. Unless it's software emulation (which wouldn't be worth the effort) they should just leave that alone.

The handheld especially, then need to simplify they're interface and the second screen hurts that.

Yup. I'm hoping they let go of the dual screen form factor.

Why? It's not like Nintendo is gonna get many third party ports anyway (assuming you mean no BC = new architecture & more power), unless you want the system to be cheaper. If I had to choose, the handheld should retain 3DS compatibility.

If nintendo isn't getting much in terms of third party, why are they making new hardware? I would hope that they are going into this with the intention of securing as much games as possible. An isolationist mindset is not what they need. And yes, I think their systems should be cheaper. I'll be dammed if they come in above 279 for the console and 199 for the handheld. Including 3DS compatibility, a slot of 3DS games, the chipset, dual screen again, is not worth it in my opinion.

 

[LegendofLex]

So if Nintendo do release a dedicated handheld gaming device then what do people think Nintendo will do in order to ensure that users adopt the device in large numbers? We've seen a huge decline in consumers purchasing dedicated handheld gaming hardware recently so Nintendo can't just release 3DSv2 and expect it to do the same as before sales wise.

Not fragment the user base by making the software library completely different from the console. Create an entire line of games that can be played with touch controls, possibly ports of their mobile library. It'd basically become a super-budget option for entering the Nintendo games ecosystem. People can always upgrade to the console experience later. I imagine they'd come up with some Wii U like ideas for some games that make the devices better when used together, too, or allow people to tap into the Wii U games that require the GamePad.

 

[Snakeyes]

So if Nintendo do release a dedicated handheld gaming device then what do people think Nintendo will do in order to ensure that users adopt the device in large numbers? We've seen a huge decline in consumers purchasing dedicated handheld gaming hardware recently so Nintendo can't just release 3DSv2 and expect it to do the same as before sales wise.

Giving it an aesthetically pleasing design unlike the 3DS would be a start.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Well, ARM skimped on the A8 VPF by design.. And it turned out quite the skimp ; )


NEON does 64- and 128-bit semantics, the implementation can do the latter as 2x pass 64bit ALU or in full 128bit ALUs. Think Bobcat vs Jaguar implementing the same ISA (say, SSE3).

I need to brush up on some of this again. haha. Interesting that ARM dowplayed the VPF on the A8. Was this because NEON became a priority? Will be interesting to see how they implement 3DS BC, if they choose to even. Even though I am sure they are small, adding 4 ARM11s on to an SoC seems inelegant. I believe that Nintendo used an ARM11 to emulate an ARM7 for the 3DS GBA ambassador games (since 3DS only has ARM11/ARM9). Would the A53 have enough power to emulate an ARM11?

ed: sorry, I didn't quite read your question in full. NEON has 16 128-bit registers, true. Jaguar's AVX also has 16 128-bit registers. It's not until AVX512 (or Xeon Phi, if we count that) that Intel's ISA got >16 simd registers. But to answer your direct question: A57 is at no disadvantage vs Jaguar whatsoever.

Ah, that's the info I was looking for. Thanks!

What is the point of Wii U compatibility? They refuse to unchain the system to the gamepad, requiring it to surf the interface. So you'd have to have the pad to even play Wii U games. The only people that will own one already own the Wii U. I don't see the point. Port Zelda and call it a day.

To enrich their software library for new users while appeasing Wii U buyers by allowing digital purchases and VC games to transfer over. Since the Wii U has a real OS, I don't think Wii U games would be stuck in a sandbox either, like Wii is on Wii U. There's way more on Wii U than Zelda that a new audience might take an interest in. Nintendo are a small company--setting aside resources for a bunch of ports would be wasteful in their eyes. This is why VC has been such a trickle.

Btw, you can launch and play many games without the Gamepad right now. That you can't surf the internet w/out it is just a lack of wanting to devote resources atm...

With the 3DS, the dual screens, resolution, architecture, are all things that Nintendo should avoid on their next handheld. Unless it's software emulation (which wouldn't be worth the effort) they should just leave that alone.

They can display 3DS games on a single screen the same way they've done w/ DS VC on Wii U. Or look at how DS games display on 3DS and the scaling employed. Or the whole VC "dark filter" fiasco on Wii U. Nintendo don't necessarily care that games display perfectly as long as they play perfectly.

 

[disap.ed]

To enrich their software library for new users while appeasing Wii U buyers by allowing digital purchases and VC games to transfer over.

NX doesn't have to be BC with WiiU though (with all the difficulties this brings), they could just rerelease the games that fit the new platform (that probably won't have dual screens) and make them available on the eshop (maybe even for free for thouse who bought it on the WiiU/3ds eshop)

 

[LegendofLex]

NX doesn't have to be BC with WiiU though (with all the difficulties this brings), they could just rerelease the games that fit the new platform (that probably won't have dual screens) and make them available on the eshop (maybe even for free for thouse who bought it on the WiiU/3ds eshop)

They specifically said one of their goals with their next platform is to not have to do this because it will lead to software droughts.

What is the point of Wii U compatibility? They refuse to unchain the system to the gamepad, requiring it to surf the interface. So you'd have to have the pad to even play Wii U games. The only people that will own one already own the Wii U. I don't see the point. Port Zelda and call it a day.

Haven't people constantly complained about having to rebuy all their games? Wii U compatibility would fix that problem permanently - anything that's playable now on Wii U will be playable on every Nintendo platform forever.

Only system settings requires the GamePad - the rest of the OS and most of the games can be navigated and played without it. They could always have BC support for the GamePad and build the streaming tech into their next handheld so it can double as a GamePad.

 

[disap.ed]

I think that was meant for all future platforms (nx forward) which makes sense as all platforms should share a basic architecture / OS.

 

[LegendofLex]

I think that was meant for all future platforms (nx forward)

They also specifically said that one of their goals with NX is to not leave the Wii U architecture behind.

This is exactly what I'm arguing against, basically. So they go through the extensive process of porting a game to their new architecture and then give it away for free?

People don't want Nintendo to be shackled to the past. They just want to never have to rebuy any of their games again. Please understand, Nintendo.

 

[Fourth Storm]

NX doesn't have to be BC with WiiU though (with all the difficulties this brings), they could just rerelease the games that fit the new platform (that probably won't have dual screens) and make them available on the eshop (maybe even for free for thouse who bought it on the WiiU/3ds eshop)

This is exactly what I'm arguing against, basically. So they go through the extensive process of porting a game to their new architecture and then give it away for free?

My interpretation of Iwata's comments is that they intend to make games compatible w/ multiple hardware on an OS level from here on out. But for the transition from Wii U-->NX, they will still need to use some of the old hardware methods.

 

[Vena]

So if Nintendo do release a dedicated handheld gaming device then what do people think Nintendo will do in order to ensure that users adopt the device in large numbers? We've seen a huge decline in consumers purchasing dedicated handheld gaming hardware recently so Nintendo can't just release 3DSv2 and expect it to do the same as before sales wise.

Make it a more modern, appealing device for starters. Second, properly market it and make it a convincing proposition.

The 3DS is an aged system, its not appealing in a lot of ways to your general consumer as it lags behind mobile in many aesthetic/functional ways that are immediately apparent. We can't say for sure what will happen when they release a more modern system with a rich library but I don't think its quite so grim if they make a compelling product. The 240m pool of the DS/PSP era is gone, partly to mobile and partly to Sony's blunders/burned bridges with the Vita, but I don't think we're outside of the realm of a healthy 60m+ handheld existing, especially not if Nintendo branches to emerging markets and makes the system affordable.

The 3DS also suffered a rocky start that greatly hurt its momentum moving forward even if it had two incredibly strong years on the market. If they can launch it without faltering their momentum, I think they will be okay for this gen. From there on, they have to make themselves a daily known brand again and really keep the NX and its future iterations as meaningful purchases/upgrades.

Had Nintendo not needed to collapse on the WiiU for support in late-2013/2014/early-2015, they would have been pumping out an incredible library for the 3DS and probably pushing it a lot further than it ended up getting as its library largely dried up from Nintendo who was focused on trying to save the WiiU.

A Nintendo without an albatross and chain tied to their neck (as well as now efficient dev pipelines) has the chops to produce a wide library of compelling titles. They also employ goddamn wizards given the sheer magic they have been pulling from the 3DS with its ports.

Spoiler

Doesn't hurt that they also control some of the strongest IP in gaming.

 

[disap.ed]

They also specifically said that one of their goals with NX is to not leave the Wii U architecture behind.

This can mean anything really, for example they most probably leave PowerPC behind. I think Iwata was speaking more of toolchains than anything else.

This is exactly what I'm arguing against, basically. So they go through the extensive process of porting a game to their new architecture and then give it away for free?

It could work like with the Wii>WiiU virtual console transition, so with a small fee.

 

[Vena]

Well, there's a reason why it's so popular in chinese SoC: It offers decent performances.
Especially in multi core configurations. As far as I'm concerned, if I were to do the design for the handheld, my choice would be on 2 fast cores and 2 slower cores. 2x800mhz A57 and 2x1000mhz A53. The two A57 being dedicated to gaming, one of the A53 being OS tasks and the last one being for whatever they want.

A57 cores are really fast but also power hungry and big. Thats why we wont see 4 of them in a handheld. Especially if Nintendo wants a decent GPU. Thats also why iPhones are stucked to dual cores CPU.

I don't see any real likelihood of Cortex A7, especially not if they want it to serve as the common denominator (I'm not sure how much is 32-bit arch will affect trying to scale to a, then, console 64-bit arch). A53 is very, very likely unless they surprise us with an entirely different chipset with suer-efficiency like the A53.

 

[Fourth Storm]

It could work like with the Wii>WiiU virtual console transition, so with a small fee.

In my estimation, it would not be worth the investment if they just plan on charging a small fee or no fee. Old VC games are alot less complex than Wii U games and even for Wii-->Wii U, they kept the same CPU core (emulation is usually very CPU-bound).

Now, once again, if they go w/ ARM on the console, they will have to restart the Virtual Console from scratch. I can imagine that this would greatly agitate core Nintendo fans, who are still waiting for the Wii U VC to even catch up w/ Wii's (it's never gonna happen).

The last investor question that Iwata ever fielded was regarding VC and why aren't all the games up at once. I believe such a scenario is on their radar, and carrying over Wii U and 3DS BC for this next generation is effectively the only way to not move in reverse. As I said before, afaik (hope) the 3DS and Wii U OS designs are such that a sand box would not be required. People would have literally no idea if a VC game ran on PPC or ARM. In the future, Nintendo could either continue to license PPC, w/ the cores getting even smaller as nodes advance. Or, at the very least, this next gen buys them some time to fully convert their emulators to ARM.

 

[Vena]

Now, once again, if they go w/ ARM on the console, they will have to restart the Virtual Console from scratch. I can imagine that this would greatly agitate core Nintendo fans, who are still waiting for the Wii U VC to even catch up w/ Wii's (it's never gonna happen).

And I think we can be quite sure that they are dreading this scenario, and will do everything they can to avoid it.

 

[Overside]

They also specifically said that one of their goals with NX is to not leave the Wii U architecture behind.

This a tricky word, because it can mean so many different things, and I am confident in this context he is not referring to hardware architecture. That being said, I am not saying this has any bearing against bc with wii u, its just talking about something else.

Wii u is a pretty important system for nintendo from a future development standpoint, it is not only their first hd system, it is their first system with a true programmable shader pipeline, and I believe may also be the switch between the integer math used for gc/wii graphics, and floating point (although the eventual dolphin upgrade will have the final word on that)

A lot of work went into building the tool sets and api's for this, many things that likely just couldnt be brought over from before, and is a foundation to build off of for the future.

This is the architecture they worked so hard on. There is no reason to leave that work behind, they intend to continue building on that foundation.

And honestly... They did a pretty damn good job eith their api's and tools. Getting them into the hands of people outside nintendo seems to be a different.situation but im getting off track.

Wii u games, 1st party anyways, have pretty damn good performance stability, and their effects libraries impress, despite the horsepower of the system. This is the stuff that is unfortunately written off as 'art style' a rather wounding dismissal for the poor chaps that wrote those shaders and effects to be used by those artists.

 

[The Maverick]

To enrich their software library for new users while appeasing Wii U buyers by allowing digital purchases and VC games to transfer over. Since the Wii U has a real OS, I don't think Wii U games would be stuck in a sandbox either, like Wii is on Wii U. There's way more on Wii U than Zelda that a new audience might take an interest in. Nintendo are a small company--setting aside resources for a bunch of ports would be wasteful in their eyes. This is why VC has been such a trickle.

Btw, you can launch and play many games without the Gamepad right now. That you can't surf the internet w/out it is just a lack of wanting to devote resources atm...

They can display 3DS games on a single screen the same way they've done w/ DS VC on Wii U. Or look at how DS games display on 3DS and the scaling employed. Or the whole VC "dark filter" fiasco on Wii U. Nintendo don't necessarily care that games display perfectly as long as they play perfectly.

Eh. I just don't think Wii U software is compelling enough to warrant the work. I understood why they fought for Wii compatibility, and why Microsoft is gunning for 360 compatability. Those were tangible users who might be swayed into making the jump by accessing the large library of games they already own. And those user bases were large enough to justify the risk. Wii U doesn't have that luxury. Especially if the games will still be $40 years from now.

3DS software emulation would be alright, I suppose. Having to include the hardware to make it compatible is where it goes kaput to me. Nintendo really needs to make decisions without considering BC as a factor. If it fits after the fact, fine. If not, oh well. They should be working on providing third parties with hardware that entices them. If BC musty be sacrificed, then it should go.

Haven't people constantly complained about having to rebuy all their games? Wii U compatibility would fix that problem permanently - anything that's playable now on Wii U will be playable on every Nintendo platform forever.

Only system settings requires the GamePad - the rest of the OS and most of the games can be navigated and played without it. They could always have BC support for the GamePad and build the streaming tech into their next handheld so it can double as a GamePad.

I think most of the people who complain about having to buy virtual console games are the people that owned a Wii and a Wii U. New customers wouldn't be affected by this whatsoever. I think nintendo would rather take the risk of catching the ire of fans who are likely to stick around anyways than make moves that could alienate new ones. And the VC library is currently so paltry that I don't think it makes much of a difference. There will be a Splatoon 2. There will be another 2D Mario. I don't see why nintendo should put in the effort to worry about compatability. If they weren't willing to drop the pad to sell the system, I doubt they will leave it behind in emulation.

Not worth it.

 

[Neoxon]

Eh. I just don't think Wii U software is compelling enough to warrant the work. I understood why they fought for Wii compatibility, and why Microsoft is gunning for 360 compatability. Those were tangible users who might be swayed into making the jump by accessing the large library of games they already own. And those user bases were large enough to justify the risk. Wii U doesn't have that luxury. Especially if the games will still be $40 years from now.

3DS software emulation would be alright, I suppose. Having to include the hardware to make it compatible is where it goes kaput to me. Nintendo really needs to make decisions without considering BC as a factor. If it fits after the fact, fine. If not, oh well. They should be working on providing third parties with hardware that entices them. If BC musty be sacrificed, then it should go.


I think most of the people who complain about having to buy virtual console games are the people that owned a Wii and a Wii U. New customers wouldn't be affected by this whatsoever. I think nintendo would rather take the risk of catching the ire of fans who are likely to stick around anyways than make moves that could alienate new ones. And the VC library is currently so paltry that I don't think it makes much of a difference. There will be a Splatoon 2. There will be another 2D Mario. I don't see why nintendo should put in the effort to worry about compatability. If they weren't willing to drop the pad to sell the system, I doubt they will leave it behind in emulation.

Not worth it.

And there lies the problem that I constantly touch on, who would care (in the West)? None of the third parties in the west (beyond maybe Warner Bros.) are gonna give a shit. Maybe they can reach out towards some of the Japanese third parties, but few of them have a big influence in the West. And as someone alluded to in this thread, a number of them have written off Nintendo consoles some time ago. The big third party companies are mostly a lost cause. If anything, Nintendo should do what I've mentioned earlier & reach out to indies. Of all their third party relations, indie developers are among the few that Nintendo didn't screw over. They should take advantage of that fact, get feedback from a number of indie developers, & make sure that the NX family of systems are easy for indie developers to get their games out on.

 

[The Maverick]

And there lies the problem that I constantly touch on, who would care (in the West)? None of the third parties in the west (beyond maybe Warner Bros.) are gonna give a shit. Maybe they can reach out towards some of the Japanese third parties, but few of them have a big influence in the West. And as someone alluded to in this thread, a number of them have written off Nintendo consoles some time ago. The big third party companies are mostly a lost cause. If anything, Nintendo should do what I've mentioned earlier & reach out to indies. Of all their third party relations, indie developers are among the few that Nintendo didn't screw over. They should take advantage of that fact, get feedback from a number of indie developers, & make sure that the NX family of systems are easy for indie developers to get their games out on.

No offense, but indie games aren't gonna keep the lights on. They aren't gonna move systems in November. If nintendo has already conceded the fight of courting the huge third parties, then they may as well stop putting out hardware. It's their fault that they went from where they were 15 years ago to today.

 

[Neoxon]

No offense, but indie games aren't gonna keep the lights on. They aren't gonna move systems in November. If nintendo has already conceded the fight of courting the huge third parties, then they may as well stop putting out hardware. It's their fault that they went from where they were 15 years ago to today.

Exactly, Nintendo got themselves into this mess. Third parties aren't just gonna welcome Nintendo back with open arms, they have a long road to recovery before third parties will even consider to look their way. And judging by how long Nintendo has given them the cold shoulder, it's gonna take at least a decade to repair the damage Nintendo has done to their third party relations.

And the point of potentially having two systems share an architecture & most of their games is so Nintendo can support the platform mostly on their own with little-to-no software droughts. Sprinkle in some high-profile indie games & games from the few third parties that Nintendo has left (Bandai Namco, Sega, Capcom, Atlus, etc.) & you have a solid release schedule for NX games. If they actually make the NX Console powerful, they can start to prove to the third parties that Nintendo has pushed away that they're willing to play ball. And as time goes on & a generation or two passes since the release of the NX, maybe the others will be willing to give Nintendo a second chance.

 

[Snakeyes]

And there lies the problem that I constantly touch on, who would care (in the West)? None of the third parties in the west (beyond maybe Warner Bros.) are gonna give a shit. Maybe they can reach out towards some of the Japanese third parties, but few of them have a big influence in the West. And as someone alluded to in this thread, a number of them have written off Nintendo consoles some time ago. The big third party companies are mostly a lost cause. If anything, Nintendo should do what I've mentioned earlier & reach out to indies. Of all their third party relations, indie developers are among the few that Nintendo didn't screw over. They should take advantage of that fact, get feedback from a number of indie developers, & make sure that the NX family of systems are easy for indie developers to get their games out on.

No one buys consoles for indie games. They're better off slowly repairing third party relationships and fixing their brand image by diversifying their first-party lineup, which will eventually help their consoles become a primary option for the average game consumer again, in a sustainable way (unlike the Wii).

Third parties seem like a lost cause because Nintendo are uncooperative themselves and are stubbornly sticking to their family-friendly console vision at the expense of everything else, which reduces the sales potential of the usual third party fare on Nintendo platforms.