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RED ASH Kickstarter crashes n burns (Comcept/Inafune/Hyde making Mega Man Legends 3)

RK128

Member
Yeah, this is one of the worst KS yet for the precedent its trying to set. Trying to use fans and Kickstarters as a temporary honey pot, then try and twist their arms further when "the real game" is to be funded by another publisher anyway. Just can't be arsed paying for the prototype demo phase themselves.

Since the ONE DAY ONLY SPECIAL OFFER scam is over, now its $79 to get the "full game" (all without having seen a scrap of actual game) and not just the limited prologue theyre already trying to downplay. Note:

arhTyoP.png

Content may be reduced! Expect nothing! Proper game still coming though, pay $79 today!

Surprised more gaming sites havent picked up on this, but its probably too confusing for a lot of them to understand that Inafune (the trustworthy underdog story they dont want to close doors on) is engaging in one of the slimiest Kickstarter shakedowns Ive seen from a big player.

I'm honestly surprised they showed us that; now people have less of a reason to put money into the Kickstater as they would think "Oh, the full game is coming anyway....will just wait for that to come out :l". I hope they know what they are doing, because in the long run, their Kickstarter will go down as 'what NOT to do' when running a Kickstarter :l.

I hope that the final game is solid, despite all the (justified) negativity and 'toxicity' surrounding Red Ash.
 
I'm honestly surprised they showed us that; now people have less of a reason to put money into the Kickstater as they would think "Oh, the full game is coming anyway....will just wait for that to come out :l". I hope they know what they are doing, because in the long run, their Kickstarter will go down as 'what NOT to do' when running a Kickstarter :l.

I hope that the final game is solid, despite all the (justified) negativity and 'toxicity' surrounding Red Ash.
I feel the same, we will see how the kickstarter changes once they mention the console that won. And talking about votes, the Kalkanon mayor vote hasn't changed that much with Natasha still being #1 by 50%. Come on people, make any of the other three win! (Preferably Masha, even Call would vote for her)
 
Let me get this straight, so now you get the full game if you pledge at least 79.99? But ONLY digital?

So if you get the physical version you only get "KalKanon Incident" on the disk?

Ugh....

This is Kickstarter continues to amaze me in the worst ways. I just wanted a Legends 3 successor, but instead I get headaches.
 
Let me get this straight, so now you get the full game if you pledge at least 79.99? But ONLY digital?

So if you get the physical version you only get "KalKanon Incident" on the disk?

Ugh....

This is Kickstarter continues to amaze me in the worst ways. I just wanted a Legends 3 successor, but instead I get headaches.
This is a legitimate criticism they need to address, I still feel I didn't understand the "full game" update completely.
 

Frumix

Suffering From Success
See the funny thing is, if you draw just one line, コール becomes ロール.
Hahaha boy oh boy, maybe trying to sell Mega Man bootlegs isn't such a good idea.
I mean, this is just shameless.
 
seems like it's easier and cheaper to buy this at retail than to kickstart it.
That is IF it even gets made. Honestly I did the same with MN9 since I was ok even if it didn't get made. I cared to play it but not enough to make a pledge because there's a lot of Megaman games of that play style. With Red Ash there are only two Legends game that could be better with modern technology and that's why I made a pledge
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
Has any other Kickstarter done a 'one day only' special deal or whatnot?

Even disregarding all of the other factors re: Publisher money, game size/length, and the poor decision of the 'unknown' console vote, that seems really scummy to me, especially since it's supposedly for a 'full game' which may or may not ever come to exist.
 
Worst conceived, most contrived, maybe worst managed big KS I can think of. The new gold standard for how to kill a decade+ of good will and sap the confidence out of the only people you have on your side.
 
Even disregarding all of the other factors re: Publisher money, game size/length, and the poor decision of the 'unknown' console vote, that seems really scummy to me, especially since it's supposedly for a 'full game' which may or may not ever come to exist.

Exactly. I was even thinking- how would you even phrase that as a reward tier? They're asking for money in exchange for the full game, but none of that money will be used to develop the full game, which itself hasn't secured a funding source in order to be made. How do you describe that reward tier in a way that isn't misleading?

Then I looked back at their campaign and realized the solution simple- just act as if it's not a problem at all!!
TIER UPDATE! Now, when you pledge $79 or more, you will receive the main story of RED ASH ("The New Order Conspiracy", estimated at 12 hours) for free! This will be a digital copy on PC or console, and you will receive it in addition to your copy of "The KalKanon Incident".

After all, Kickstarter is not a store, so they're probably not going to be held accountable if/when things fall apart!
 

Eusis

Member
Has any other Kickstarter done a 'one day only' special deal or whatnot?

Even disregarding all of the other factors re: Publisher money, game size/length, and the poor decision of the 'unknown' console vote, that seems really scummy to me, especially since it's supposedly for a 'full game' which may or may not ever come to exist.
Bard's Tale IV, but that was free additional stuff, not core gameplay content of the Kickstarter itself.
 

atbigelow

Member
Maaaaan this KS bums me out a lot. I was hesitant in backing it due to there not being much to preview. And it seems to have just gotten worse and worse.

Really wish Capcom would have just fucking made Mega Man Legends 3. :/
 
Worst conceived, most contrived, maybe worst managed big KS I can think of. The new gold standard for how to kill a decade+ of good will and sap the confidence out of the only people you have on your side.
To be fair, I think you have to view that as a two-part story, the first part being pretty much everything that happened with Mighty No. 9 after initial funding.
 

junpei

Member
See the funny thing is, if you draw just one line, コール becomes ロール.
Hahaha boy oh boy, maybe trying to sell Mega Man bootlegs isn't such a good idea.
I mean, this is just shameless.

When I read the games title I never say Red Ash . I always read it as Re Dash or Red Dash.

That being said I really don't see anything wrong with the idea . If capcom isn't going to do anything with the whole legends concept then someone else should. Kinda like that whole axiom verge/ metroid prime thing where Reggie said the it "looks like metroid" and he got heckled . this KS is failing because it is poorly manged .

I personally would love it if hideo kojima and crew made a zone of the enders ripoff becuase I know that konami wont do it .

Maaaaan this KS bums me out a lot. I was hesitant in backing it due to there not being much to preview. And it seems to have just gotten worse and worse.

Really wish Capcom would have just fucking made Mega Man Legends 3. :/

What makes this situation even worst is that if capcom ever had the desire to revisit legends this KS poor performance would be used against it .
 

Frumix

Suffering From Success
When I read the games title I never say Red Ash . I always read it as Re Dash or Red Dash.

That being said I really don't see anything wrong with the idea . If capcom isn't going to do anything with the whole legends concept then someone else should. Kinda like that whole axiom verge/ metroid prime thing where Reggie said the it "looks like metroid" and he got heckled . this KS is failing because it is poorly manged .

I personally would love it if hideo kojima and crew made a zone of the enders ripoff becuase I know that konami wont do it .

I can't properly articulate why this one feels like a dirty Chinese bootleg of a beloved property to me and, say, Bloodstained: Order of Not Ecclesia doesn't, but it's probably a combination of shady as hell kickstarter following somewhat shady history of MN9 and the concept being full of Original the Characters. Or maybe it's just the straw that broke the camel's back. Either way, as a long-term fan of Mega Man, I am somewhat offended.

I'm not saying we're not long overdue for a colorful Zeldaesque adventure game. When was the last time we had one of those? But making a carbon (har har) copy of Legends is not the way to go I don't think.
 

vareon

Member
arhTyoP.png

Content may be reduced! Expect nothing! Proper game still coming though, pay $79 today!

This right here is everything that is wrong with the campaign. However you may planned it, backers must see Stretch Goals as additions that will improve the game as it gets more funding. The way people see it now is that the full game is under multitudes of Stretch Goals and they're crippling the game feature by feature to get to the initial goal. "Content may be reduced" is a horrible marketing blurb.
 

RK128

Member
This right here is everything that is wrong with the campaign. However you may planned it, backers must see Stretch Goals as additions that will improve the game as it gets more funding. The way people see it now is that the full game is under multitudes of Stretch Goals and they're crippling the game feature by feature to get to the initial goal. "Content may be reduced" is a horrible marketing blurb.

I'm surprised that we even have a Kickstarter if there is a 'Full Game' already coming. Then what is the point of the Kickstarter; a Legends 3-esc demo for us to play with until the full game is ready for launch?

Then they should of just did what Bloodstained did; get a publisher on board, tell that to the backers day-one and things would of been fine :l.
 

Eusis

Member
Maaaaan this KS bums me out a lot. I was hesitant in backing it due to there not being much to preview. And it seems to have just gotten worse and worse.

Really wish Capcom would have just fucking made Mega Man Legends 3. :/
I admittedly would've wanted something like this to have come anyway, what's arguably a proper modern MML that can be larger and more varied with high end hardware, but it's a shame this was so mismanaged all things considered.
 

Roussow

Member
I don't actually 100% understand Kickstarter, so I'll just leave a few questions here:

If a project doesn't hit it's baseline goal within the time-frame, all money is refunded to contributes and the duty of the project creator to fulfill stretch-goal rewards/project completion is nullified, correct?

Is there any legal obligation from the project creator to actually do anything? Of course there should be, but is there?

Can the project creator change the overall goal during the Kickstarter? Can the people behind this just say, "hey, for $500K we'll produce a smaller project"?
 

Eusis

Member
I don't actually 100% understand Kickstarter, so I'll just leave a few questions here:

If a project doesn't hit it's baseline goal within the time-frame, all money is refunded to contributes and the duty of the project creator to fulfill stretch-goal rewards/project completion is nullified, correct?
Not quite... because pledges are only collected once the crowd funding period ends. If it fails or is canceled then you simply don't get charged period.
Is there any legal obligation from the project creator to actually do anything? Of course there should be, but is there?
I believe so actually, yes. Not sure if that was always the case, but I do believe they're obligated to deliver a product at least.
Can the project creator change the overall goal during the Kickstarter? Can the people behind this just say, "hey, for $500K we'll produce a smaller project"?
No, no they can't unless I missed something. And if I had they'd probably have already done just that.
 

Hubble

Member
Yeah, this is one of the worst KS yet for the precedent its trying to set. Trying to use fans and Kickstarters as a temporary honey pot, then try and twist their arms further when "the real game" is to be funded by another publisher anyway. Just can't be arsed paying for the prototype demo phase themselves.

Since the ONE DAY ONLY SPECIAL OFFER scam is over, now its $79 to get the "full game" (all without having seen a scrap of actual game) and not just the limited prologue theyre already trying to downplay. Note:

arhTyoP.png

Content may be reduced! Expect nothing! Proper game still coming though, pay $79 today!

Surprised more gaming sites havent picked up on this, but its probably too confusing for a lot of them to understand that Inafune (the trustworthy underdog story they dont want to close doors on) is engaging in one of the slimiest Kickstarter shakedowns Ive seen from a big player.

I honestly do not see anything wrong with this. As Yu Suzuki, Iga, etc., have shown it is incredibly difficult to receive substantial funding for a video game, even if you have the vision and reputation as the people above do. These people have claimed to talk to near every publisher with no company willing to offer a good deal. Inafune is doing his best with funding and is using this Kickstarter as leverage when negotiating with publishers. Video games have become expensive to make, the mobile push is strong, etc., that there are not many publishers as there were before that are wiling to invest in a new game. The more successful this Kickstarter is, the more of a chance there is to find significant funding. By the way, A LOT of Kickstarters have early bird lower pricing and is actually common, so it fits in with how other projects are typically launched.
 

clem84

Gold Member
Just watched the KS video for the first time. Normally any Inafune game will have me interested but I walked away from the video without a clear idea of what the game will be like. Unless there are major developments before the end I don't see myself contributing to this one.
 

Roussow

Member
Not quite... because pledges are only collected once the crowd funding period ends. If it fails or is canceled then you simply don't get charged period.

I believe so actually, yes. Not sure if that was always the case, but I do believe they're obligated to deliver a product at least.

No, no they can't unless I missed something. And if I had they'd probably have already done just that.

Alright, thankyou very much for the answers there -- clears things up a bit.
 

finch

Member
Alright this is getting ridiculous now. If what I'm gathering for what people are giving this kickstarter shit for is correct, the timing is poor and the choice of console is unknown (which is the case for many of these kickstarters). But is it really any reason to want this KS to fail? MN9 was funded and Inafune delivered with a full game that is receiving nothing short of praise from it's last public showing from all press. There's a lot of bandwagon hate coming in it feels like suddenly. Simply don't give money, but to wish for it to fail is inane. Especially considering it's likely the last scrap of a "Legends-esque" game MML fans will ever get.

:p For real. If people are going to use the word "gross" to semantic satiation they could at least have some self-awareness about wishing failure on something that people are working hard on it. I think people honestly believe this is Keiji Inafune sitting on a sack with big money signs on it, holding his hand out for more.

Ugh, it's hard to add anything to this without either being either shitty or depressing. I lowered my pledged from $225 to $25 and i'm thinking about canceling it altogether. I've gone from wanting it funded to not wanting it funded, partly because it's being handled in such a strange way, but mostly because so many people are being so fucking shitty about it. It really is like MML3 being canceled all over again, except this time it's long and drawn out and everyone's pointing and laughing.
 
It's clear they planned around this getting at least 2 million from the kickstarter leading to a good pitch for outside backing.It didn't even occur to Inafune that it would be struggling to reach the basic funding goal.

They probably can't deliver on the prologue with the 800.000.Unless they have somehow already signed a deal with some publisher there's a big chance backers aren't going to get much more than a basic prototype demo at this point.
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
Can the project creator change the overall goal during the Kickstarter? Can the people behind this just say, "hey, for $500K we'll produce a smaller project"?
No. Once the campaign starts, Kickstarter doesn't allow the creator to change the financial goal.
 
I honestly do not see anything wrong with this. As Yu Suzuki, Iga, etc., have shown it is incredibly difficult to receive substantial funding for a video game, even if you have the vision and reputation as the people above do. These people have claimed to talk to near every publisher with no company willing to offer a good deal. Inafune is doing his best with funding and is using this Kickstarter as leverage when negotiating with publishers. Video games have become expensive to make, the mobile push is strong, etc., that there are not many publishers as there were before that are wiling to invest in a new game. The more successful this Kickstarter is, the more of a chance there is to find significant funding. By the way, A LOT of Kickstarters have early bird lower pricing and is actually common, so it fits in with how other projects are typically launched.

The problem is that the Red Ash team lied. The goalposts have changed. Instead of "pay to support this prequel game that might bring further installments down the road", now it's "BTW, there's already a full game coming, but if you pledge enough, that will be added in addition to this!"

There's no incentive to support this project when the creator has just stated that there already is a plan for a "real" game, but the project you're funding (and which probably won't even meet its goal in the first place) is just a glorified teaser that's nowhere near the scope they outlined in their KS notes.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I'm really sad to see this spiritual revival of MML3 trapped inside a poorly received kickstarter.

I really want what this game is supposed to be......
 

hamchan

Member
I feel the same, we will see how the kickstarter changes once they mention the console that won. And talking about votes, the Kalkanon mayor vote hasn't changed that much with Natasha still being #1 by 50%. Come on people, make any of the other three win! (Preferably Masha, even Call would vote for her)

Masha is the worst one.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
After all, Kickstarter is not a store, so they're probably not going to be held accountable if/when things fall apart!

Kickstarter has the same accountability mechanism as real stores do if/when things fall apart. If you walk into a contractor's business and pay him $500 to make a fence for you and he doesn't make the fence, you ask for your money back. If he doesn't give you your money back, you sue him. If you win, you have to collect judgment. If he drank your money away and has no assets or wages to garnish or files for bankruptcy, you won't get your money. The police can't go over and beat up the contractor until coins come out of him, River City Ransom isn't real life.

Suing someone over $50 in real life is generally not worth it, and will probably cost you more than you earn from collecting. As a result, people rarely do it, except through class action suits against profitable companies. A class action against a company with no assets wouldn't work and so no lawyer would take it without payment upfront.

The same is true on KS. There literally isn't a difference in the mode of how you get made whole. The distinction that's relevant for the buyer is their expectation of the ability of the person to fulfill the contract. Giving someone $50 for something that's being done tomorrow is generally a safe bet. Giving someone $50 for a complicated thing that will take years to pay out is generally less of a safe bet. If you hire an architect and pay her now to do your house plans in 2031, don't be surprised when she is hit by a train in 2028 or moves to Mars in 2029.

People have these misconceptions about Kickstarter that seem to boil down to understanding how the real world works: largely it's based on trust. Trust is what should govern your interactions with KS as well.

One final note: I do think KS and Amazon should refund their portion of commissions from projects that do not deliver. This gives them a stronger incentive to screen projects to begin with, correctly gives them more stake in higher profile higher cost projects, and allows them to make it clear they aren't profiting off fraud, even in a hands-off way. But we're talking about 5-8% of the money, so if you get robbed for $100 you probably aren't going to care about getting <$10 back.

If a project doesn't hit it's baseline goal within the time-frame, all money is refunded to contributes and the duty of the project creator to fulfill stretch-goal rewards/project completion is nullified, correct?

The money is never taken to begin with so there is nothing to refund.

Is there any legal obligation from the project creator to actually do anything? Of course there should be, but is there?

If they don't make their goal? Why would there be. If I need $10,000 to make my cool 3D print alien meme art, and I get $0, where's the contract? A contract involves consideration: the exchange of some value for some good or service. If they do make their goal? They are obligated to deliver to the satisfaction of a backer, just like any other contract. What happens when they fail depends on the scenario and how you try to get a refund.

Can the project creator change the overall goal during the Kickstarter? Can the people behind this just say, "hey, for $500K we'll produce a smaller project"?

If you only needed $500,000 to produce a project, you should have asked for $500,000 to produce a project. Your option at that point is to start a second KS asking for less money and hope your previous supporters don't abandon you due to your increasing desperation sending a strong negative signal about your trustworthiness.

The problem is that the Red Ash team lied. The goalposts have changed. Instead of "pay to support this prequel game that might bring further installments down the road", now it's "BTW, there's already a full game coming, but if you pledge enough, that will be added in addition to this!"

There's no incentive to support this project when the creator has just stated that there already is a plan for a "real" game, but the project you're funding (and which probably won't even meet its goal in the first place) is just a glorified teaser that's nowhere near the scope they outlined in their KS notes.

That's definitely dishonest and frankly this KS feels like garbage (it's also the second KS by a team that frankly so far has delivered a seriously underwhelming looking product from their first KS) so I fully support anyone not funding it. But I'm also not super troubled by them revealing additional information about their strategy during the funding period. Any* pledger can remove their pledge before then, so to the extent that anyone is duped, they have an obvious remedy. I think someone who pledges day one and doesn't pay any attention to the rest of the campaign is basically making it clear that they don't really care about the details, so absent some scenario where they pledge on day one and then get paralyzed for 45 days with no ability to read the news, I'm not super sympathetic to someone discovering later they didn't really want to pledge.
 
People have these misconceptions about Kickstarter that seem to boil down to understanding how the real world works: largely it's based on trust. Trust is what should govern your interactions with KS as well.

I agree completely and this is a very well written post.

Of course Kickstarter updated their terms of use to make it clear that backers are obligated to deliver. But those same terms and conditions repeat that after the site collects your money that's the end of their obligation and everything after that is between you and the project creator. People are placing trust in projects that begin on Kickstarter now that the site is starting to gain real legitimacy up to the point where a big game maker is able to feature a project on an E3 stage. The Kickstarter brand is starting to foster trust with the public while repaying none of that with backer security for failed projects they host on their site.

Until they change that then, yes, trust is key with KS projects. I'll admit, when I first saw the Shenmue 3 KS I thought $2mil was risky, and I still think there's some risk there, but that didn't stop me from giving them my money because I still feel they can make a game with what they raised. There's also a certain project that I'm currently checking out and doing my homework on because I'm interested in backing at the top tier.

The Red Ash project's management isn't inspiring trust. When anyone goes to the public asking for money this kind of criticism is completely valid.
 

Silvawuff

Member
I think the calls asking for this project to fail stem from the fact that even if it meets minimum funding, people may receive a mediocre product in return. As previously mentioned, this project was planning on raking in a lot more.

Personally I hope it doesn't make it. If it did it would be setting an exploitative paradigm to people investing in this project. I think people want and deserve a spiritual MML, just not like this.

If I were Capcom I'd counter with a real MML3 kickstarter and see what happens with that.
 
I'm actually hoping funding starts moving backwards. People should be pulling out of this shitshow in droves, but I kinda doubt they will. I'm curious how those all important last 3 days are going to look for this project though.
 

Caffeine

Member
i think they need to take like 3 months and work on a decent campaign for when they relaunch the kickstarter with stuff to show and a better pitch video. lol have some people finally get some impressions from mighty no 9.
 

rhandino

Banned
dw1KmTB.png


Sh0gZRk.gif


Nowi, her impacT.

The fact that the anime one is not even reaching the initial goal by now... eek!

Oh well, since the press said that MN9 is fun maybe they can ride that wave of good faith when MN9 delivers and start again... because MN9 it's going to deliver just like Shovel Knight did, right?
 
i think they need to take like 3 months and work on a decent campaign for when they relaunch the kickstarter with stuff to show and a better pitch video. lol have some people finally get some impressions from mighty no 9.

Can they just do that? Doesn't Kickstarter have some rule that effectively says, "you had your chance, you failed, no second chances"?
 

Eusis

Member
I imagine it's also rare for a second attempt to work out. I imagine there are exceptions though, and this has a lot of room to be one of those: get a vertical slice created, get consoles lined up, get MN9 out. All of those would probably help a lot and give some faith that something worthwhile is in fact possible.
 
I imagine it's also rare for a second attempt to work out. I imagine there are exceptions though, and this has a lot of room to be one of those: get a vertical slice created, get consoles lined up, get MN9 out. All of those would probably help a lot and give some faith that something worthwhile is in fact possible.

From my admittedly limited recalling of KS history, successful second attempts tend to coincide with reduced scope and goals.
Essentially, tighten the package as a mea culpa for either aiming too high, or presenting a roughshod proposition
 
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