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ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape (NYT)

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quaere

Member
I am not even going to answer this question since it is so silly
It's hardly a silly question.

From the article itself:

“In the milieu in which the Quran arose, there was a widespread practice of men having sexual relationships with unfree women,” said Kecia Ali, an associate professor of religion at Boston University and the author of a book on slavery in early Islam. “It wasn’t a particular religious institution. It was just how people did things.”

Cole Bunzel, a scholar of Islamic theology at Princeton University, disagrees, pointing to the numerous references to the phrase “Those your right hand possesses” in the Quran, which for centuries has been interpreted to mean female slaves. He also points to the corpus of Islamic jurisprudence, which continues into the modern era and which he says includes detailed rules for the treatment of slaves.

“There is a great deal of scripture that sanctions slavery,” said Mr. Bunzel, the author of a research paper published by the Brookings Institution on the ideology of the Islamic State. “You can argue that it is no longer relevant and has fallen into abeyance. ISIS would argue that these institutions need to be revived, because that is what the Prophet and his companions did.”
 

Slightly Live

Dirty tag dodger
And no. Not listening to its our foreign policy shite which is the cause.

Well, you're gonna have to accept it's definitely one of many causes. Understanding this is important to help destroying monsters like these and ensuring when we finally wipe them from existence that none follow in their foot steps.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
Is it really true that according to Islam "he is allowed to rape an unbeliever"?

The god of the Qur'an really, really doesn't like disbelievers and has a myriad of specific plans for their eternal torment in hell.

Specifically while they live, though, disbelievers should be sought out and killed until only Muslims remain (1), and treated harshly in general since they're going to hell anyway (2), and god will make them humiliated in life (3). Also, don't bother feeling any sort of mercy for them because god designed them to be disbelievers in the first place (4), and they're minions of the devil (5).

(1) 2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

(2) 9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

(2-2) 9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

(3) 39:26 Thus Allah made them taste humiliation in the life of the world, and verily the doom of the Hereafter will be greater if they did but know.

(4) 2:6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
2:7 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

(5) 4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.


All up to interpretation, of course.
 
I am really longing for the day these assholes go full on Sith and just destroy themselves from within with backstabbing and everyone trying to clamor over each other to be top dog.

This world has no place for people who think this way.
 

entremet

Member
It's hardly a silly question.

From the article itself:

“In the milieu in which the Quran arose, there was a widespread practice of men having sexual relationships with unfree women,” said Kecia Ali, an associate professor of religion at Boston University and the author of a book on slavery in early Islam. “It wasn’t a particular religious institution. It was just how people did things.”

Cole Bunzel, a scholar of Islamic theology at Princeton University, disagrees, pointing to the numerous references to the phrase “Those your right hand possesses” in the Quran, which for centuries has been interpreted to mean female slaves. He also points to the corpus of Islamic jurisprudence, which continues into the modern era and which he says includes detailed rules for the treatment of slaves.

“There is a great deal of scripture that sanctions slavery,” said Mr. Bunzel, the author of a research paper published by the Brookings Institution on the ideology of the Islamic State. “You can argue that it is no longer relevant and has fallen into abeyance. ISIS would argue that these institutions need to be revived, because that is what the Prophet and his companions did.”
Interesting.

Judaism went through the Rabbinic period, where the Mosaic law was made more palatable.

For example modern practicing Jews do not slaughter animals for the atonement of their sins. Not do they stone adulterers.

I know many Islamic sects went through the same thing, but there is still some lingering radical groups and populations.
 

velociraptor

Junior Member
Disgusting. It's sad that this group is getting away with this level of barbarism. IS are worse than nazis.

The god of the Qur'an really, really doesn't like disbelievers and has a myriad of specific plans for their eternal torment in hell.

Specifically while they live, though, disbelievers should be sought out and killed until only Muslims remain (1), and treated harshly in general since they're going to hell anyway (2), and god will make them humiliated in life (3). Also, don't bother feeling any sort of mercy for them because god designed them to be disbelievers in the first place (4), and they're minions of the devil (5).




All up to interpretation, of course.

"(1) 2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers."

Seems like it's arguing for self-defence rather than randomly attacking.
 
This is what happens when your deciding basis for morality comes from bronze age men doing bronze age shit. We let marauding and raping warlords write down fundamentals that never change (we do however, but the text doesn't).

Except you know none of that is in either the Quran or the Bible. Nice try though
 
The rich playboys in the middle east need to stop buying cars and living here in Europe and the US and start sorting out their own back yeards.

Why is it USA and European countries who have to roll up or sleeves and get dirty.

And no. Not listening to its our foreign policy shite which is the cause.

The middle east feels like it's stuck in the dark ages and its this nonsense called religion which is half the problem.

What an informed and non racist or stereotypical post. you would be banned if you said this about pretty much any nationality on this forum.

Just for the record, the GCC/Levant/MENA countries are not just comprised of the few areas where ISIS are stationed, it's a pretty big area so to paint all countries such as the UAE/Bahrain/Kuwait etc with the same brush is pretty ridiculous.
 

entremet

Member
What an informed and non racist or stereotypical post. you would be banned if you said this about pretty much any nationality on this forum.

Just for the record, the GCC/Levant/MENA countries are not just comprised of the few areas where ISIS are stationed, it's a pretty big area so to paint all countries such as the UAE/Bahrain/Kuwait etc with the same brush is pretty ridiculous.

It's a common generalization, unfortunately.

You see this with Africa, a huge and super diverse continent, but it's lumped in as one super "country" by the Western mainstream media.
 
The middle east feels like it's stuck in the dark ages and its this nonsense called religion which is half the problem.

Let's be careful about pinning this on religion (as if all religions were the same). The West in the 20th Century created two of the most murderous regimes in history - and these were either disdainful of or actively hostile to religion.
 
The buses were white, with a painted stripe next to the word “Hajj,” suggesting that the Islamic State had commandeered Iraqi government buses used to transport pilgrims for the annual pilgrimage to Mecca.
Even the more mundane shit they do is awful.


IIRC aren't there Bible passages condoning raping female POWs? These old books gotsta go.
Yeah. In this aspect, at least, ISIS is pretty much in line with the "good guys" of the Bible. (See: Deuteronomy 20:10-14, Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
 

Zaptruder

Banned
Disgusting. It's sad that this group is getting away with this level of barbarism. IS are worse than nazis.



"(1) 2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers."

Seems like it's arguing for self-defence rather than randomly attacking.

Well, depending on interpretation, you could easily see how the current people in the area of the traditional caliphate controlled areas are occupiers and that you're driving them out to create a holy empire.

Not that we'd see it that way - but it's certainly within the bounds of creative self-interested interpretation to see things this way.

We should note that we do mental gymnastics (the who belongs where shit, less so the rape everyone you hate*) like that in our western developed nations as much if not more so.

*although places that we don't like to talk about like Australia's detention centers and America's abu gharib certainly have their fair share of atrocities... but hey, at least we have the shame to make sure the information from those places are obfuscated and ignored as best we can, as opposed to help up like a fucking trophy.
 

YourMaster

Member
Is it really true that according to Islam "he is allowed to rape an unbeliever"?

Islam isn't a person, so there is no right or wrong answer about this. Each can decide for himself what is 'true according to Islam'.
Worldwide the majority of Muslims would not have a problem with this, but especially in the west you have many Muslims who would oppose this and many more still that do not practice it.

The important thing is to remember that religious believes provide no moral argument. Even if all Muslims and Christians agreed on this topic, it would still be just as wrong.
 

Aegus

Member
I generally shy on the side of liberal punishment/rehab for any crime, but for these fucks I would gladly support boots on the ground, march forward shooting any ISIS member until they are dead, Root and branch.
 

Zaru

Member
It's like a parody. How evil/ignorant can an entity get? Their actions are getting worse and worse. The Nazis are starting to look like a bunch of nice guys compared to them.
Is there even any civilians that supports them?

The deciding factor for whether history will look back on ISIS as worse than the Nazis (or not) is scale. Pound for pound, they already make the Nazi regime look like boyscouts. But thankfully, they don't have the capacity to act on that massive scale. Yet.
 

Vagabundo

Member
As if we needed any more reasons to hate ISIS.

The international community really needs to figure out a multi headed approach to these guys. It doesn't help that the whole region is a mess.

Maybe the US deal with Iran will help.
 

entremet

Member
The deciding factor for whether history will look back on ISIS as worse than the Nazis (or not) is scale. Pound for pound, they already make the Nazi regime look like boyscouts. But thankfully, they don't have the capacity to act on that massive scale. Yet.

The big nations have to do something about it some way, though.

The issue is that conventional warfare tactics are ill equipped to handle a viral ideological group like ISIS.
 
What an informed and non racist or stereotypical post. you would be banned if you said this about pretty much any nationality on this forum.

Just for the record, the GCC/Levant/MENA countries are not just comprised of the few areas where ISIS are stationed, it's a pretty big area so to paint all countries such as the UAE/Bahrain/Kuwait etc with the same brush is pretty ridiculous.

Yeah, In the UAE they only throw rape victims in prison for having unlawful sex. Pretty progressive in that country.
 

Duji

Member
Wow! Just wow, I don't even have the words for all this:(

Is it really true that according to Islam "he is allowed to rape an unbeliever"?

Slavery is not forbidden in Islam -- at least if we're talking about the most popular interpretations.

And a Muslim man can have sex with their (non-Muslim) female slave that has been acquired through one of the "just" wars. He can have as many slaves as he likes, too; there is no limit. Whether or not consent is required for sex isn't mentioned anywhere. I'm going to assume no consent required, in keeping with the nature of an obsolete and vile institution that slavery is.

There's an authentic (according to the standards of Sunni Islam) Hadith where some of Muhammad's companions go up to him and ask if using the pull-out method during sex is fair game for their newly acquired sex slaves, to which Muhammad responds that it's better to not...
 

KingGondo

Banned
Sounds like they're using sex as a recruiting tool.

I recently read The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright, and I was struck by how sexually repressed many of the jihadis were. It seemed to be a root cause of the cultural conservatism and rage some of these people exhibit.
 
Islam isn't a person, so there is no right or wrong answer about this. Each can decide for himself what is 'true according to Islam'.
Worldwide the majority of Muslims would not have a problem with this, but especially in the west you have many Muslims who would oppose this and many more still that do not practice it.

The important thing is to remember that religious believes provide no moral argument. Even if all Muslims and Christians agreed on this topic, it would still be just as wrong.

You really think the majority of Muslims in the world support this? I find that extremely hard to believe
 

Duji

Member
It isn't. How can rape be allowed if premarital sex isn't even allowed?

Sex with slaves is actually seen as a preventative measure to avoid pre-marital sex. Yes, it makes no fucking sense.

Some crazy Kuwaiti woman whose mind resides in 7th century Arabia was making a case for this, believe it or not: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcpKisAsNM

Trying to justify evil acts through religion.

Some interpretations of some religions contain bad ideas. Why is this so hard to imagine?
 

quaere

Member
What's that Arabic link say? From the exact same site:

islamqa.info/en/10382

Praise be to Allaah.
Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married.

A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a sariyyah (concubine) from the word sirr, which means marriage.

This is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and this was done by the Prophets. Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) took Haajar as a concubine and she bore him Ismaa’eel (may peace be upon them all).

Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also did that, as did the Sahaabah, the righteous and the scholars. The scholars are unanimously agreed on that and it is not permissible for anyone to regard it as haraam or to forbid it. Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.
 

R8TEDM3

Member
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who took their time to post their reply/links on this page. I guess there's something new to be learned every day!!!
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
Organized religion proves, once again, to be the root of all evil. Christians need to check their condemnation and pick up a history book to see the blood on their hands.

I have nothing against personal religious beliefs or spirituality but organized religions just create an us vs them mentality that feeds these extremists and incites killing the unbelievers.


Also, this is what they want to do to women in the western world. These sub-human piles of dog shit dream at night of coming over here and raping and killing their way across America.
This is why I feel no remorse when I hear about extreme measures being used to take them out.

Its too bad we can't get the innocents out of there and just glass the lot of them at once.

Sorry for the anger, but hearing some animal justify the raping of a 12 year old girl makes me want to push the button myself
 

quaere

Member
Guys, IslamQA is so hardline extremist its even banned in Saudi Arabia.
What about Wiki Islam?

wikiislam.net/wiki/Rape_in_Islam

Same conclusion there. Both are in line with the academics cited in the NY Times article. Even the defender in NYT uses the well it's not relevant anymore argument rather than the that's not what the Quran says argument.
 

Despera

Banned
Wow! Just wow, I don't even have the words for all this:(

Is it really true that according to Islam "he is allowed to rape an unbeliever"?
Well in Islam the slave woman can only decline the sexual advances of her master if she's ill or if sexual penetration will result in physical damage to her body. Otherwise it's fair game.

But before you delve into this subject you need to learn the guidelines on who can be enslaved in the first place and under what circumstances is it allowed.
 
It isn't. How can rape be allowed if premarital sex isn't even allowed?

Except when the biggest role model of all time (uncle mo) marries a six year old and fucks her at age nine. All halal. You see "premarital sex" is not always the same you escpect it to be.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Pretty clear it was A-OK around the origins of the religion. ISIS aren't just making shit up, they are hardcore fundamentalists.
 

Duji

Member
They use Islamic sources though.

This is too confusing.

When in doubt, look at how the first adherents to the religion practiced Islam (the history). Ex look up what Muhammad allowed to be done to the women and children of the Banu Qurayza tribe.
 

SmokyDave

Member
It's as "true" as them being "allowed" to throw gays off of buildings and behead non-Muslims.
So it's legit then?

Ibn Abbas and Abu Huraira reported God’s messenger as saying, “Accursed is he who does what Lot’s people did.” In a version . . . on the authority of Ibn Abbas it says that Ali [Muhammad’s cousin and son-in-law] had two people burned and that Abu Bakr [Muhammad’s chief companion] had a wall thrown down on them. (vol. 1, p. 765, Prescribed Punishments; cf. Maududi vol. 2, p. 52, note 68)

Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani, a modern-day Mufti (jurist), wrote Illuminating Discourses on the Noble Quran, 2nd ed. trans. and ed. Mufti A. H. Elias, (Karachi: Pakistan, Zam Zam, 2003). In his commentary on Sura 4:15-16, he is open to the interpretation that the two verses speak of homosexuality, so he provides two hadith that he considers reliable, which deal with punishing homosexuals (vol. 2, pp. 365-69).

With regard to the method in which these people [homosexuals] are to executed, Abu Bakr after consulting with Ali and other Sahaaba [companions of Muhammad], ruled that they be burnt.

Mufti Madani’s next citation says that convicted homosexuals should undergo this terrible punishment (cf. Maududi vol. 2, p. 52, note 68):

. . . Ibn Abbas ruled that they be thrown headlong from the highest summit.
I mean, it didn't just occur to ISIS randomly one day.
 

JeanGrey

Member
This is just sad and pathetic again trying to justify the unjustifiable by putting the interpretation of a belief by depraved individuals.
 
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