Support NeoGAF

[Weltall Zero]

Why? While the trackpads are interesting, a controller should work across all games, including those tuned for analog stick and buttons.

How does that make sense when traditional controllers don't work with KB/M games? Why is the Steam controller expected to work 100% flawlessly with 100% of games but every single other controller gets a pass with not working with KB/M games?

Frankly, if the Steam controller isn't the best thing to play controller games, I'll use a different controller for those. I couldn't care less, honestly. What I want to do is how it plays the games I can't play with traditional controller.

 

[Roshin]

...

 

[ashecitism]

We can confirm the game works flawlessly with the @steam_games game pad controller! Touchpad cockpit look-around is sweet ^_^

https://twitter.com/Radial_G/status/636480457975197696

 

[dsk1210]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=84&v=V1wYD_sb0wU

I remember seeing that one a little while ago, he looks like he is still getting used to it.

Usability should improve over time.

Thanks for reposting though.

 

[Springfoot]

I already have two 360 controllers and a PS4 controller that work with my PC so I don't need yet another sticks'n'buttons controller, but I can't stand playing FPS with analog sticks, which means I end up playing them exclusively on my comp and never on the couch. If this thing can allow for precision snapshot aiming that emulates the experience of using a mouse, then I'm in.

Mainly though, I'd like to know if there are places available to try it first.

 

[Minsc]

Be interesting to see how it handles space sims like TIE Fighter, could work out nicely if some obscure scheme comes to play. Maybe I'll finally have a controller that can move and pan at the same time.

I wonder if anyone can confirm if it has function buttons (or that a button can be made in to one. That is, say holding a trigger or button on the back of the gamepad could make all the face buttons and even the track pad sections perform alternate functions while it is held. Could really help in giving you a lot more actions to bind.

 

[Krejlooc]

Be interesting to see how it handles space sims like TIE Fighter, could work out nicely if some obscure scheme comes to play. Maybe I'll finally have a controller that can move and pan at the same time.

I wonder if anyone can confirm if it has function buttons (or that a button can be made in to one. That is, say holding a trigger or button on the back of the gamepad could make all the face buttons and even the track pad sections perform alternate functions while it is held. Could really help in giving you a lot more actions to bind.

Thats a modifier function, and yes it can do that

 

[ashecitism]

Be interesting to see how it handles space sims like TIE Fighter, could work out nicely if some obscure scheme comes to play. Maybe I'll finally have a controller that can move and pan at the same time.

I wonder if anyone can confirm if it has function buttons (or that a button can be made in to one. That is, say holding a trigger or button on the back of the gamepad could make all the face buttons and even the track pad sections perform alternate functions while it is held. Could really help in giving you a lot more actions to bind.

You can also assign modifier buttons. So you can make the A button jump, right trigger + A button dodge, left grip + A button cast a spell, etc. The button combinations seem only limited by your muscle memory.

http://devinandrewwhite.com/2015/07/07/everything-you-need-to-know-about-valves-steam-controller/

 

[mattiewheels]

Thats a modifier function, and yes it can do that

I use that with Xpadder to play an MMO from my couch, those rear paddles are really going to be what sets this controller apart from others. I can think of so many good uses.

 

[Krejlooc]

I use that with Xpadder to play an MMO from my couch, those rear paddles are really going to be what sets this controller apart from others. I can think of so many good uses.

You can also use the two 2-stage triggers as eight different modifiers through all permutations, giving the 2 shoulder and 2 paddle buttons 32 possible functions.

 

[zephervack]

Im actually looking forward to deleting my Rocket League save and starting from scratch using this controller without using the face buttons.

Maybe I will suck at first, but something tells me it will pay off in the long run when I can look around while still having the ability to jump, drift, free cam, etc.

 

[Lach]

Why is it still not orderable for me? (Switzerland)
I want one!

 

[mattiewheels]

You can also use the two 2-stage triggers as eight different modifiers through all permutations, giving the 2 shoulder and 2 paddle buttons 32 possible functions.

Two-stage...does that mean it has an extra click like the Gamecube controller?

 

[ashecitism]

Two-stage...does that mean it has an extra click like the Gamecube controller?

Yes and you can configure them

So, in the video in the OP while playing Wolfenstein, they have the analog part as the ADS and the click part as shooting

 

[Krejlooc]

Two-stage...does that mean it has an extra click like the Gamecube controller?

Yes, and it also has an IMU that you can map to fine mouse control. Like Splatoon, basically.

 

[mattiewheels]

Can't believe I never thought of the two-stage trigger as a left trigger replacement until now, that's awesome.

 

[belmonkey]

So with that modifier thing, could you pretty much use all kinds of button combinations and have dozens of hotkeys (like in WoW) involved with a single trackpad or the joystick?

 

[Peltz]

I mean, I don't know if the diamond buttons on the controller are bad or not, I haven't used it. But to me, complaining about bad diamond buttons on the Steam controller is like complaining about the bad d-pad on the 360 controller. If the game needs the d-pad as one of the primary controls, you really should use something else. And that's why I find the complaints about it compared to the 360 pad weird; the Steam controller might suck for retro games and fighters, but so does the 360 controller.

I can actually see the Steam controller being a better fit for most modern console games, especially when you take into account the 2 extra grip buttons. The 360 controller is likely better for games that use all four action buttons and four shoulder buttons at the same time, but that doesn't account for a very large number of them.

Honestly, the dome-like gummy-bear face buttons of the 360 controller are utter shit. They are the opposite of high quality style sanwa buttons. They cannot be mashed for rapid fire presses.

For this very reason, I'll never understand why the 360 controller is so beloved. The d-pad and face buttons are pretty important parts of a controller. And the 360 controller is the worst with regard to each.

 

[Unai]

So with that modifier thing, could you pretty much use all kinds of button combinations and have dozens of hotkeys (like in WoW) involved with a single trackpad or the joystick?

Yes.

 

[Dommo]

Yeah I think the best combination for the witcher is going to be analog move on the left track pad and mouse look on the right. Though I'd prefer very high sensitivity so that I can do a full 360 in each direction without needing to flick. That's one game where I'd use mode shifting heavily to map all the keyboard shortcuts - screenshot, quick save, sign swapping etc.

I mean, this is really the best combination for most character controlled games and is, in my opinion, the largest hurdle player control has been needing to get over. For real, ignoring the comfort/ergonomics argument, focusing just on the movement aspect, the left analogue stick of a traditional controller is better than WASD for movement because it allows variable directions and pressure, but the mouse has the right analogue stick beat for looking because it's far more accurate and acts as a pointer where speed can be easily changed and managed on the fly. I find that accurate looking is far more important than accurate movement, but that's irrelevant to this point:

For the past 30 years we've been dealing with two imperfect control schemes, both suffering a major blow that the other has already pretty much perfected.

It's weird it's taken this long to have the two working in harmony. Obviously it's primarily a problem of putting a 'mouse' on a gamepad, but I find it weird we haven't even had some kind of PC nunchuck equivalent you hold in your left hand, while using a mouse in your right hand. I've actually tried playing Wolfenstein with an XBOne controller in my left and a mouse in my right and it actually works pretty well. This is, I think, the most exciting thing about the Steam Controller.

 

[mrklaw]

That would be because people are thinking shallowly of console centric games rather the breadth of PC centric games that lack such support. Or they care only for a console comparison, disregarding the controllers purpose. In the end the controller is a choice and not a default. If you only play console centric games with controller support and don't want mouse like 1:1 precision accuracy and speed, there is no reason to consider the Steam Controller. If this isn't the case obviously the Steam Controller has a lot of potential.

I want more than an Xbox controller because there are games that need mouse and/or keyboard, which is why I'm interested in the steam controller. But I don't want a controller that is only capable of replacing a mouse and keyboard - I have too many games that I prefer playing with an Xbox controller. I need it to be good at both.

My ideal setup for many games would be a mouse and analog pad - mouse for mouse look is better than an analog pad; and an analog pad for movement which I prefer to a keyboard. For that reason the left stick does not feel like a compromise to me - it feels like a genuinely beneficial addition. The right cluster of buttons I'm happy to have - either I get used to the haptic pad and transition to that (and have the ABXY as secondary buttons), or I can't adjust and I still have the familiar console buttons (with the haptic pad as additional functions).

 

[viveks86]

I mean, this is really the best combination for most character controlled games and is, in my opinion, the largest hurdle player control has been needing to get over. For real, ignoring the comfort/ergonomics argument, focusing just on the movement aspect, the left analogue stick of a traditional controller is better than WASD for movement because it allows variable directions and pressure, but the mouse has the right analogue stick beat for looking because it's far more accurate and acts as a pointer where speed can be easily changed and managed on the fly. I find that accurate looking is far more important than accurate movement, but that's irrelevant to this point:

For the past 30 years we've been dealing with two imperfect control schemes, both suffering a major blow that the other has already pretty much perfected.

It's weird it's taken this long to have the two working in harmony. Obviously it's primarily a problem of putting a 'mouse' on a gamepad, but I find it weird we haven't even had some kind of PC nunchuck equivalent you hold in your left hand, while using a mouse in your right hand. I've actually tried playing Wolfenstein with an XBOne controller in my left and a mouse in my right and it actually works pretty well. This is, I think, the most exciting thing about the Steam Controller.

Agreed! I can't wait to start fiddling with it and doing a detailed write up. The controller is going to live or die by the trackpads.

So with that modifier thing, could you pretty much use all kinds of button combinations and have dozens of hotkeys (like in WoW) involved with a single trackpad or the joystick?

Yup. It should eliminate the need for xpadder and pinnacle for the most part. Still can't do complex stuff, but should be more than enough for most use cases.

 

[laxu]

I mean, this is really the best combination for most character controlled games and is, in my opinion, the largest hurdle player control has been needing to get over. For real, ignoring the comfort/ergonomics argument, focusing just on the movement aspect, the left analogue stick of a traditional controller is better than WASD for movement because it allows variable directions and pressure, but the mouse has the right analogue stick beat for looking because it's far more accurate and acts as a pointer where speed can be easily changed and managed on the fly. I find that accurate looking is far more important than accurate movement, but that's irrelevant to this point:

For the past 30 years we've been dealing with two imperfect control schemes, both suffering a major blow that the other has already pretty much perfected.

It's weird it's taken this long to have the two working in harmony. Obviously it's primarily a problem of putting a 'mouse' on a gamepad, but I find it weird we haven't even had some kind of PC nunchuck equivalent you hold in your left hand, while using a mouse in your right hand. I've actually tried playing Wolfenstein with an XBOne controller in my left and a mouse in my right and it actually works pretty well. This is, I think, the most exciting thing about the Steam Controller.

I think one reason for lack of such a device has been that many games haven't supported mouse and keyboard at the same time as a controller and just mapping the keyboard to the analog stick is no better because it doesn't allow granular control. I hope the Steam Controller can handle my needs, for example I play GTA V mostly with a controller because it's so much better for driving but when it comes to shooting I put the controller down and use the mouse and keyboard because aiming is so much easier.

To me any games that require aiming or where viewport alignment is important are terrible with a regular controller. I tried playing MGS:GZ with a controller and trying to hit anything was quite difficult compared to the mouse. By comparison Witcher 3 I play totally with a controller because viewport control is not important in that game thanks to autoaiming bow and mostly smart camera.

 

[Nzyme32]

I think one reason for lack of such a device has been that many games haven't supported mouse and keyboard at the same time as a controller and just mapping the keyboard to the analog stick is no better because it doesn't allow granular control. I hope the Steam Controller can handle my needs, for example I play GTA V mostly with a controller because it's so much better for driving but when it comes to shooting I put the controller down and use the mouse and keyboard because aiming is so much easier.

To me any games that require aiming or where viewport alignment is important are terrible with a regular controller. I tried playing MGS:GZ with a controller and trying to hit anything was quite difficult compared to the mouse. By comparison Witcher 3 I play totally with a controller because viewport control is not important in that game thanks to autoaiming bow and mostly smart camera.

For me, outside of all the PC centric games I could really use the Steam Controller for, something like MGSV GZ (or TPP) could really use a hybrid of mouse aim and analogue movement. The PC bindings for sneaking, walking, running and dashing is ridiculous. Then the aiming from my perspective is ridiculous with an analogue stick, with a seemingly oversized deadzone and area of slow movement and smaller area for slightly faster movement. Finally being able to mix the best of both worlds and not need assists will be brilliant. I'm sure with modifiers and switching button bindings on the fly, it will be possible to find some really interesting solutions for each person

 

[grandwizard]

It's weird it's taken this long to have the two working in harmony. Obviously it's primarily a problem of putting a 'mouse' on a gamepad, but I find it weird we haven't even had some kind of PC nunchuck equivalent you hold in your left hand, while using a mouse in your right hand. I've actually tried playing Wolfenstein with an XBOne controller in my left and a mouse in my right and it actually works pretty well. This is, I think, the most exciting thing about the Steam Controller.

The issue is that 99% of games will not accept joystick input and mouse input simultaneously, something the Steam Controller won't fix because it is emulating m/kb. You'll get 8-way directional on the left stick and mouse look on the right pad which is good enough, but not an analog input for movement.

 

[Branduil]

The issue is that 99% of games will not accept joystick input and mouse input simultaneously, something the Steam Controller won't fix because it is emulating m/kb. You'll get 8-way directional on the left stick and mouse look on the right pad which is good enough, but not an analog input for movement.

Can you map the left pad so that pressing a direction in the center zone of the pad is walk while pressing a direction on the outer zone of the pad is run?

 

[grandwizard]

Can you map the left pad so that pressing a direction in the center zone of the pad is walk while pressing a direction on the outer zone of the pad is run?

Yes, you could use a modifier like ctrl so that you have two different speeds of walking. This combined with the absolute camera control has worked fine for me with my own setup for a long time, but it's still not an analog stick.

 

[daninthemix]

So can anyone explain to me, in laymans terms, why this controller can viably act as a mouse whereas the 360 thumbstick cannot? Very interested in using this to play Dragon Age: Origins.

 

[mattiewheels]

So can anyone explain to me, in laymans terms, why this controller can viably act as a mouse whereas the 360 thumbstick cannot? Very interested in using this to play Dragon Age: Origins.

I've heard it gives the sensation of pushing a trackball around (not a trackpad, a ball). So for fine mouse control it should work in certain situations much better than sticks (but others maybe not).

 

[Baleoce]

Due to the extra utility and buttons, if this thing also has a decent battery life, I can see myself using this for FFXIV. Atm I use the wii u pro controller.

 

[viveks86]

So can anyone explain to me, in laymans terms, why this controller can viably act as a mouse whereas the 360 thumbstick cannot? Very interested in using this to play Dragon Age: Origins.

Here's an excerpt that describes the issues with thumbsticks:

Analog sticks are a velocity-oriented control scheme where the mouse is a relative position-oriented control scheme. When you move a joystick around you do not move the pointer to a target rather you make it travel at some speed in the direction of the target. With a mouse you just need to move it the required distance and stop. It is easier to develop a sensitivity to how far you need to pull a mouse to travel to the target than a sensitivity to how long to hold a joystick in a given direction to reach a target. Joysticks are heavily reliant on our mental clocks and eye coordination.

A trackpad, like the mouse, is a relative postion-oriented control scheme. So it inherits the benefits of using a mouse. Given the smaller surface area, the mouse may still beat it in accuracy, but with the right sensitivity and a lot of practice, the claim is that it can get much closer than analog sticks can.

 

[dsk1210]

For the past 30 years we've been dealing with two imperfect control schemes, both suffering a major blow that the other has already pretty much perfected.

It's weird it's taken this long to have the two working in harmony. Obviously it's primarily a problem of putting a 'mouse' on a gamepad, but I find it weird we haven't even had some kind of PC nunchuck equivalent you hold in your left hand, while using a mouse in your right hand. I've actually tried playing Wolfenstein with an XBOne controller in my left and a mouse in my right and it actually works pretty well. This is, I think, the most exciting thing about the Steam Controller.

That is precisely how I played the original crysis, my mate thought I was mental.

 

[daninthemix]

Here's an excerpt that describes the issues with thumbsticks:

A trackpad, like the mouse, is a relative postion-oriented control scheme. So it inherits the benefits of using a mouse. Given the smaller surface area, the mouse may still beat it in accuracy, but with the right sensitivity and a lot of practice, the claim is that it can get much closer than analog sticks can.

Thanks - that does go some way to explaining it.

 

[belmonkey]

Does the right trackpad make a good substitute for a joystick for 3rd person camera panning in games like The Witcher 3 or Dark Souls?

 

[mrklaw]

Does the right trackpad make a good substitute for a joystick for 3rd person camera panning in games like The Witcher 3 or Dark Souls?

Good question. In theory it should be adjustable so it can emulate a right analog stick well (turn speed varying with distance from centre). Lots of the focus seems to be how it'll work as a mouselook replacement but a lot of games also use that side of a controller for camera controls, and for those I actually prefer a controller to mouse/keyboard

 

[I'm new be nice]

That is precisely how I played the original crysis, my mate thought I was mental.

Noticed in Japan that Valve had the same general setup for their left 4 dead arcade units:

Felt good.

I also did the controller+mouse thing with Mirrors Edge. There is definitely something to it.

 

[Krejlooc]

The issue is that 99% of games will not accept joystick input and mouse input simultaneously

What? The vast, vast majority of games accept both mouse and joystick simultaneously. In fact, i have NEVER encountered a game that does not.

 

[SneakyStephan]

https://twitter.com/Radial_G/status/636480457975197696

I challenge anyone to watch that video from start to finish without skipping forward just to see what the guy is trying to say... (not that it isn't a lot less shitty than trying to type with a controller)
Seems good enough to enter your name in a game or maybe send a short PM to someone on steam, but definitely not for having conversations or posting on the internet without wanting to slit your wrists

 

[alexandros]

What? The vast, vast majority of games accept both mouse and joystick simultaneously. In fact, i have NEVER encountered a game that does not.

What about the games that require you to switch control methods through a menu?

Edit: wait, I was thinking about the analog joysticks on a gamepad. Are we talking about flight sticks?

 

[Nzyme32]

I challenge anyone to watch that video from start to finish without skipping forward just to see what the guy is trying to say... (not that it isn't a lot less shitty than trying to type with a controller)
Seems good enough to enter your name in a game or maybe send a short PM to someone on steam, but definitely not for having conversations or posting on the internet without wanting to slit your wrists

One of the Valve guys has said that some people can type faster using the touchpads than typing on an actual keyboard, which is possible through practice. It is believable since eventually it will become muscle memory, since the layout of the letters always map to certain spots. In the trailer they show a guy who has clearly put hundreds of hours into that controller and typing interface to be that proficient - in the video you mention, it is a guy who has spent a few minutes with the controller and speeds up during the video itself. It is certainly plausible that someone will be able to type at speed comfortably, but to see how prevalent that can be you'd have to wait and see the results of more people who have invested a lot of time in it.

 

[JailDesigner]

How about RTS games? Starcraft, Age of Empires .. those games use a lot of keyboard shortcuts. I wonder if I could play the single player campaign of those games on the big tv

 

[Nzyme32]

How about RTS games? Starcraft, Age of Empires .. those games use a lot of keyboard shortcuts. I wonder if I could play the single player campaign of those games on the big tv

One of the testers said he had no problem beating a hard AI in StarCraft 2, but he had a bunch of complaints for that original version of the controller. I doubt you could be competitive with a mouse and keyboard player online, but for casual use it should be no problem. StarCraft 2 is very dependant on speed, some other RTS games might not be so bad.

 

[SneakyStephan]

One of the Valve guys has said that some people can type faster using the touchpads than typing on an actual keyboard, which is possible through practice. It is believable since eventually it will become muscle memory, since the layout of the letters always map to certain spots. In the trailer they show a guy who has clearly put hundreds of hours into that controller and typing interface to be that proficient - in the video you mention, it is a guy who has spent a few minutes with the controller and speeds up during the video itself. It is certainly plausible that someone will be able to type at speed comfortably, but to see how prevalent that can be you'd have to wait and see the results of more people who have invested a lot of time in it.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Typing with all ten fingers vs using two fingers...
The average secretary/typist can type at like 120-130WPM on a keyboard, how are you going to match that with 2 fingers aiming at a tiny pad without any tactile feedback.

 

[Nzyme32]

That makes absolutely no sense.

Typing with all ten fingers vs using two fingers...
The average secretary/typist can type at like 120-130WPM on a keyboard, how are you going to match that with 2 fingers aiming at a tiny pad without any tactile feedback.

You know, at no point did I mention touch typing. This is akin to someone typing on a phone or someone who is merely average at typing on a keyboard. You can find the quote earlier in the thread

Edit -

It's not as complicated as it first appears. You'll notice that the keyboard is split down the middle by a straight line - it's really two half-keyboards. Each touchpad controls one half of the keyboard. The keys are mapped to absolute physical positions on the touchpads. The center points of the touchpads are approximately at the bottoms of the E and I keys; the ghost circles show you where your thumbs are touching. Pressing down with either thumb is the same as typing the letter underneath the ghost circle.

The programmer who designed it can type on it faster than I can type on a standard keyboard. Normal humans still do pretty well. And if you take your thumbs off of the pads completely and just use the stick and face buttons, it works just like a "standard" software keyboard, where one button is highlighted at a time and the stick shifts around between keys.

 

[SneakyStephan]

You know, at no point did I mention touch typing. This is akin to someone typing on a phone or someone who is merely average at typing on a keyboard. You can find the quote earlier in the thread

Ok so we are comparing someone who spends hundreds of hours practicing with the steam controller to someone who can't type for shit on a keyboard?

What's the point of comparing them at all then? With such a ridiculous comparison you can also say a controller can aim as well as a mouse and keyboard.

The average person is going to be able to type wayyyyyyyyyyyy faster on a keyboard than on that steam controller.
2 fingers vs up to 10, no tactile feedback and a way smaller surface mean it's wayyy harder to get the same level of muscle memory even if you were able to use all ten fingers.
With every single key press on a keyboard I get feedback for how close to the middle of the key I'm aiming (preventing me from drifting to the key next to it).

I'm sure an equally unbiased sony employee will tell you someone at their office can aim as well with a controller as with a mouse as well *chortle*

 

[Nzyme32]

Ok so we are comparing someone who spends hundreds of hours practicing with the steam controller to someone who can't type for shit on a keyboard?

What's the point of comparing them at all then? With such a ridiculous comparison you can also say a controller can aim as well as a mouse and keyboard.

The average person is going to be able to type wayyyyyyyyyyyy faster on a keyboard than on that steam controller.

Yes, what the hell did you think I was talking about?

I'm talking about what is possible; it is possible to type fast rather than what you are spouting earlier about "slitting your wrists", enough to be able to type messages on GAF as I am doing with all these messages on my phone while I wait for this fucking delayed train!

And chances are you do get some tactility, although not close to a keyboard. Haptic feedback for the boundaries of keys for if you are sweeping the pads and tactility from having to click to type

Edit - missed your edit. We already see what someone can do in the trailer in realtime. That is hardly something some one is bullshiting. The whole point of me starting this conversation was to demonstrate that you could type with it "without slitting your wrists" and that it is viable to use for typing out messages, as anyone could do with a phone and post on GAF. Why you have to be so obtuse about even the possibility of that when it is demonstrably a possibility, I don't know.

 

[Krejlooc]

One of the Valve guys has said that some people can type faster using the touchpads than typing on an actual keyboard, which is possible through practice

I would doubt this very much, or, if they could, I would expect them to hunt and peck on a keyboard with one finger. Because I type with all 5 of my fingers per hand, and moving my thumb from one key to another cannot be faster than having my pinky already hovering over a key a good quarter of the length of the keyboard away from my last key press.

 

[dsk1210]

What? The vast, vast majority of games accept both mouse and joystick simultaneously. In fact, i have NEVER encountered a game that does not.

Resident evil 5 has problems with this. I was trying to use the controller with mouse aim, it stops for about a second when you I from on to the other.

I can't really think of any others though.

 

[Nzyme32]

I would doubt this very much, or, if they could, I would expect them to hunt and peck on a keyboard with one finger. Because I type with all 5 of my fingers per hand, and moving my thumb from one key to another cannot be faster than having my pinky already hovering over a key a good quarter of the length of the keyboard away from my last key press.

Yeah I've clarified this earlier, obviously the person being compared can't be particularly fast with a keyboard and is probably pecking away

What? The vast, vast majority of games accept both mouse and joystick simultaneously. In fact, i have NEVER encountered a game that does not.

MGSV GZ has problems with this. You can't use them simultaneously because the mouse pops up or gets locked out when you start to use the other

 

[laxu]

MGSV GZ has problems with this. You can't use them simultaneously because the mouse pops up or gets locked out when you start to use the other

Even the ones that do support both at the same time usually change button prompts when you use one or the other.