I feel it's the worst for Necalli. Feels like most of his normals go through people like that.
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Street Fighter V Beta 2 Thread: Welcome, future 21007s! Now on PC!
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I feel it's the worst for Necalli. Feels like most of his normals go through people like that.
Yup.
The Lone Dragon
Member
ShinMaruku
Member
Dwarf Smash and Marvel? I think not. I think Smash would easily be bigger. Not by much but bigger.
Teknopathetic
Member
"Gen, Fei, Sak were not in vanilla SF4. They were in the console release, which was almost 7 months after the original arcade game. Kind of splitting hairs here, but I feel like it should be mentioned. Gen changed the most, but remember that his only reversal was EX Oga, which sucks."
I'm normally the one reminding people that the arcade version was something that existed, but in the context of discussing Vanilla balance it's pretty pedantic to point that out.
"BTW Sagat would never have been mid-tier in (either) version of Vanilla, no matter how long the game ran for. You should refresh your memory when it comes to how ridiculous he was; advantaged knee pressure loops, far stand LK being cancellable, stand HK doing all it's damage at the tip range, Tiger Shots giving float juggle + doing more damage, 180 damage uppercuts, jump MP having like 25 active frames, 1100 health, etc. Seth + Akuma (+ maybe Abel) were able to contain him but Sagat benefited from the unblockable Ultra glitch more than most of the cast."
I'd be willing to concede that middle tier might be pushing it, but I don't really value those things as much as what was viable in later revisions. And some of those nerfs (DP damage in particular) weren't specific to Sagat, but were universal.
I'm normally the one reminding people that the arcade version was something that existed, but in the context of discussing Vanilla balance it's pretty pedantic to point that out.
"BTW Sagat would never have been mid-tier in (either) version of Vanilla, no matter how long the game ran for. You should refresh your memory when it comes to how ridiculous he was; advantaged knee pressure loops, far stand LK being cancellable, stand HK doing all it's damage at the tip range, Tiger Shots giving float juggle + doing more damage, 180 damage uppercuts, jump MP having like 25 active frames, 1100 health, etc. Seth + Akuma (+ maybe Abel) were able to contain him but Sagat benefited from the unblockable Ultra glitch more than most of the cast."
I'd be willing to concede that middle tier might be pushing it, but I don't really value those things as much as what was viable in later revisions. And some of those nerfs (DP damage in particular) weren't specific to Sagat, but were universal.
I jumped on the fun in the Chun train during this last stress test too. Was trying out Laura and someone absolutely wrecked me with Chun so I decided it was time to finally give her a go. Mine isn't nearly as good as his but Chun seemed really strong.
While not hypothetical character. SFxT exists in which like every normal could lead into a launcher, giving free reign what to do afterwards.
Your reaction to Dictator balance changes seem pretty knee jerk and in terms of perspective far too abstract. Also the character is a sum of parts, crying over one thing while knowing nothing of other changes is very premature. Not to forget there is also the rest of the cast. Bonus mention: Supposedly the Psycho Blast got ready it's hitbox back in Sim build according to srk.
Different topic.
I think mini stress test Ryu would be ok if they were to buff his V-Skill. Keep the recovery and non-cancel, but make it 0 frame startup on reversal and add a red parry.
Karsticles
Member
Ok.
KidA Seven
Member
Nah. Last year SF4 had 1976 entrants. It probably wouldn't have had 2200 entrants, but it would have had more than Smash with like 2000 entrants.
Man I'm a B+ on USFIV, but tonight everyone was handing me my ass!
I play with a 360 pad mind you, some inputs are starting to drop on this controller. But I'm more dangerous because I'm a player who 'thinks' if that make sense.
But tonight....whoooo. Off my muthaf'ng game. I had D's beating me. I'm a Cody player and the D ranks I fought spammed fireballs and anti-airs, apparently that was enough to control the damn fight.
/rant.
I play with a 360 pad mind you, some inputs are starting to drop on this controller. But I'm more dangerous because I'm a player who 'thinks' if that make sense.
But tonight....whoooo. Off my muthaf'ng game. I had D's beating me. I'm a Cody player and the D ranks I fought spammed fireballs and anti-airs, apparently that was enough to control the damn fight.
/rant.
CountBlack
Member
You might want this thread
I wonder why they took away some characters Punch/Kick crush counters? It's something they put in then took back. Nash used to have fwd. HK crush counter but now it's just fwd. HP and st.HP
Karsticles
Member
I want to believe that they are just trying different crush counters out, because Bison's c.HK was hype. His current crushes are s.HK (amazing, it's +3 on block so it frame traps into itself for multiple baits) and df.HP (pretty weak, just because df.HP has a ton of startup and is negative on block). I would be 100% happy if he had c.HK and s.HK as crushes, and 200% happy if c.HP got its Beta 1 hitbox back and crushed as well.
I doubt it's coming when half that thread would be irrelevant by the time it comes out
That beta 1 thread is irrelevant af at this point anyway
Sorry for the news-less bump, but wow, this thread has really slowed down after all that technical talk about balancing and universal mechanics (which, for the most part, flew right by me to be honest).
Are you guys also busy tending to a newborn or something?
On-topic: have they shown more from that teased Dubai / airport stage that someone pointed out a few pages ago? Seems like a cool idea that makes sense looking at the real version, i.e. to combine a high tech desert-based city with an airport into one stage.
Edit: sorry, I actually thought I was in the Roster thread...so disregard the Dubai stage discussion part...
Are you guys also busy tending to a newborn or something?
On-topic: have they shown more from that teased Dubai / airport stage that someone pointed out a few pages ago? Seems like a cool idea that makes sense looking at the real version, i.e. to combine a high tech desert-based city with an airport into one stage.
Edit: sorry, I actually thought I was in the Roster thread...so disregard the Dubai stage discussion part...
DR2K
Banned
Because you read into an argument I wasn't making. Capcom makes tons of mistakes and some people are acting like they know what they're doing and should be impervious to balance criticism because they made 7th year revision fighter IV. A game based and designed around fans bitching, moaning and pleading for balance adjustments over the years.
Let's not pretend that the fans were directly responsible for any of the balancing in Street Fighter 4; the majority of suggestions were ignored, and it is a good thing they were. People ask for crazy things, claim things that are perfectly fine are "OP", claim that their incredibly strong characters are weak. It is endless. In fact, the only times I can remember Capcom directly reacting to fan outrage was with Marvel 3 were they hastily adjusted the game based on fan outrage, nerfing Sentinel (because he was "obviously OP") and Pheonix Write. Yes, based on fan outrage, they fucking nerfed Pheonix Write.
For the most part fans are extremely anxious, nervous, reactionary gamers howling about things that they don't, and quite frequently couldn't possibly, fully understand.
ShaperofStories
Member
The truth in this post... is palpable!
Stone Ocean
Member
The only SF4 revision based on fans complaints was Apology Edition and even then it was only to some extent
That is definitely true. I forgot about that one. I think their mistake is they looked at classic fighting games that people loved, saw broken balance, and thought that bringing a bit of that back would be a good idea. Something about bringing the community together... It wasn't a good idea. It was a very, very bad idea. Still, I think if Ono's pleas for forgiveness are any indication, they learned their lesson there.
Apologies for the bump, I thought it was up too and share the general disappointment.
As a matter of fact I am.
QFT.
As a matter of fact I am.
QFT.
Karsticles
Member
I got that newborn thing going on, too. Sleeps on me every night. 
Sentinel was a scrub nerf due to Capcom scrubs. Seth Killian said as much. There was an internal debate about whether Sentinel is OP, because he bopped a lot of Capcom employees. Seth tried to keep him from getting nerfed, but to no avail.
If Capcom listened to fans, TACs would have been completely revamped. Zero wouldn't have gotten buffs. Tron and She-Hulk wouldn't have gotten nerfed.
Here are things Capcom HAS listened to fans about:
SFIV oki being too good, leading to delayed wakeup.
FADC out of DP being too good, leading to a frame data nerf.
Option selects lowering skill level; many are gone in SFV.
Back dashes being too good.
Ultras being too good for comebacks.
The vortex being bad for play.
This is all fan feedback that has led to an improved game. If you listen to every voice, it sounds like madness, but if you listen to what is being yelled from the rooftops, it is generally good feedback. Players might not know how to make a great game, but they know when they aren't having fun.
This is completely wrong. Fans weren't outraged about Wright at all. They were still debating whether he was even useful. ChrisG used him on a joke team even pre-nerf just to clown on people.
Sentinel was a scrub nerf due to Capcom scrubs. Seth Killian said as much. There was an internal debate about whether Sentinel is OP, because he bopped a lot of Capcom employees. Seth tried to keep him from getting nerfed, but to no avail.
If Capcom listened to fans, TACs would have been completely revamped. Zero wouldn't have gotten buffs. Tron and She-Hulk wouldn't have gotten nerfed.
Here are things Capcom HAS listened to fans about:
SFIV oki being too good, leading to delayed wakeup.
FADC out of DP being too good, leading to a frame data nerf.
Option selects lowering skill level; many are gone in SFV.
Back dashes being too good.
Ultras being too good for comebacks.
The vortex being bad for play.
This is all fan feedback that has led to an improved game. If you listen to every voice, it sounds like madness, but if you listen to what is being yelled from the rooftops, it is generally good feedback. Players might not know how to make a great game, but they know when they aren't having fun.
It was confirmed by the Marvel guide writers that the Sentinel health nerf was in the works before the game was out and was planned for the first patch They wanted to get it in the guide, but missed the cutoff for going final. So, it wasn't a reaction to fan complaints. That is an assumption that people ran with. They couldn't have turned a patch around that quickly after release anyway.
CountBlack
Member
I wish Phoenix Wright didn't get nerfed.
his assist was so good.
Decided to post this here as well
Ryu's changes in Beta 2
his assist was so good.
Decided to post this here as well
Ryu's changes in Beta 2
CountBlack
Member
Yea Nash got hit hard as well. Don't have a list for the other characters though.
Irrelevant until they actually release the game.
hitsugi
Member
Don't worry, you'll see it again in 3 months.
Yup.
It's a double-edged sword letting people play the game at this point in development. There are probably countless "nerfs" and "buffs" going on in development. Things can be all over the place for many reasons. They could be purposefully toning down a lot of stuff to put focus on other tools during playtesting. I don't think each build necessarily represents their best attempt at balance at that point in time.
Greatly nerf.
'
Which immediately people were misrepresenting as "no nerfs". Because people are bad.
I got that newborn thing going on, too. Sleeps on me every night.
Wow, we've got a real Street Fighter baby creche going on it seems! Congrats guys! I don't know about you both, but it really is putting a damper on my Gaf/Youtube/gaming time these first few weeks at least, even more than I was prepared for, but the cuddles and tiny toes do make up for that.
Speaking of baby's and SF: I did at one point seriously consider naming my child Cody, but then it turned out to be a girl...(and no, I didn't go for Cammy, Chun-li, Rose or any of the Japanese SF ladies instead).
Spinosaurus
Member
This is the only change I'm completely upset about, but balance isn't done yet so I remain optimistic.
You can't nerf what isn't actually released yet.
MiniBossBattle
Member
Give me yoga tower and non archy fireballs Capcom! Let me play how I want to play.
Tons of combo's are gone that were exclusive to clawless form, his good anit air in clawless form is gone, also canceling a normal on block into stance change is unsafe. Basically they deleted clawless mode from having purpose. Oh yeah and they nerfed his CC if I recall.
Ragnorok64
Member
So your baby's name is Elena?
DR2K
Banned
A lot of changes over the years are a result of fan feedback good or bad changes, and SFV is going to be even more receptive than ever to this.
I wouldn't blame Phoneix Wright nerfs on the fans. His assist got nerfed way too early. Even SRK.com was baffled at the very idea of nerfing him of all characters.
That game needed like...one or two refinements. So sad to know that it is just not happening anymore
"God's Beard!"
Member
Canceling into stance change was already unsafe. Any whining about changes before the game is out is of complete disinterest to me because half of it is misinformation(people claiming x move is safe/unsafe and being totally wrong, etc), some changes are in relation to variables we don't even know about yet(how the last character affects the balance of the game, potential new mechanics etc) or mechanical reasons/glitches(I played an sf4 beta where certain changes broke Ryu's ability to dash out of a focus attack, for instance), and some changes are related to overall game philosophy and bringing the whole cast in line(lower damage across the board as capcom finds out characters' true damage potential and the number of hits to translate to wins vs round time). I'm not gonna worry about it until we at least have the full picture of what the game looks like.
I mean, in terms of Vega, we had people in the last beta thread who said he was terrible, and people who
correctly
Also, UMVC3 is a poor example because that game was pushed out the door on an accelerated time table for reasons outside of game development.
hitsugi
Member
The number of 'adjustments' seems more extreme due all of the damage ones, which a lot (most? all?) of the cast received, but none of this really matters since the game.. isn't done. It's just fun to see people blow up and parrot each other.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";185191067]Canceling into stance change was already unsafe. Any whining about changes before the game is out is of complete disinterest to me because half of it is misinformation(people claiming x move is safe/unsafe and being totally wrong, etc), some changes are in relation to variables we don't even know about yet(how the last character affects the balance of the game, potential new mechanics etc) or mechanical reasons/glitches(I played an sf4 beta where certain changes broke Ryu's ability to dash out of a focus attack, for instance), and some changes are related to overall game philosophy and bringing the whole cast in line(lower damage across the board as capcom finds out characters' true damage potential and the number of hits to translate to wins vs round time). I'm not gonna worry about it until we at least have the full picture of what the game looks like.
I mean, in terms of Vega, we had people in the last beta thread who said he was terrible, and people who
thought he was the best character in the beta. It's just not worth fussing over right now.
Also, UMVC3 is a poor example because that game was pushed out the door on an accelerated time table for reasons outside of game development.[/QUOTE]
right on. it's funny to me that SRK is like full to the brim with people who can't wrap their heads around the idea that what's going on isn't really 'nerfing.' these beta/show builds are practically meaningless in terms of fine balance.
I mean, in terms of Vega, we had people in the last beta thread who said he was terrible, and people who
correctly
Also, UMVC3 is a poor example because that game was pushed out the door on an accelerated time table for reasons outside of game development.[/QUOTE]
right on. it's funny to me that SRK is like full to the brim with people who can't wrap their heads around the idea that what's going on isn't really 'nerfing.' these beta/show builds are practically meaningless in terms of fine balance.
I don't think there's really a need to list changes when the game isn't out. There are changes at every public build and probably tons more in-between with internal testing.
Understood, I would want it so that next beta I don't try to do an impossible link for like an hour
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