Yes it is.
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Kojima recommends reading this speculation of MGSV The Phantom Pain (Spoiler)
- Thread starter miku
- Start date
Yes it is.
There is a massive amount of good criticism of the game that was finished, though. But alas, both sides of the argument are beating a dead horse at this point. I would be happy if a MGSV thread never happened again.
If there are people not happy with the game those are the fans.
southerncross
Member
i wish i wasn't so powerless against your amazing counter-arguments
I'm a fan.
I love MGSV.
I also feel like it is unfinished.
Like others stated, this is just being a dead horse at this point. It is what is.
So because it was about the player it excuses the fact the self-contained story isn't as effective or complete as it could've been? The fact that MGS4 "ended the series" and "has had bullshit cannon for years" means that we shouldn't have had more of a focus on Big Boss at the most or a good self-contained story at the least?
The ending of MGS2 is nothing like that in that regard. MGS2 had a nice ending with a clear message that was fulfilling in a narrative and philosophical way. That's what makes MGS2's ending have so much impact and talked about years later. Not "cuz salt."
To be fair you haven't really explained why it isn't valid criticism.
I agree that Kingdom of the Flies, as is, feels very much like an outlier from the main story/game structure... but then Kojima should have just conceived it differently. It wasn't cut because it didn't fit into the game, it was cut because Kojima ran out of time/money. So an excuse like "well, it would've disrupted the game's structure," while not necessarily untrue, was clearly not the intent.
southerncross
Member
I didn't commit a blasphemy that is comparing Kojima to Kafka for nothing, you know - to put it more bluntly, there are a lot of creative works in the history that weren't finished, but impressed people and critics anyway. I agree TPP is unfinished. My question is... so what?
Structure? What structure? For the most part it's randomly triggered cutscenes without context, rhyme or reason. Christ I had 3 cutscenes in a row that contradicted each other. That is like the opposite of pacing.
If people want to believe the mismanagement is intentional (even Kojima himself) but for anyone who has actually played the game you know that is bollocks. If Kojima wanted to make an unsatisfying game because meta well congrats...he certainly did that (not just talking about the story here either)
Usually I'd buy any logic/excuses Kojima sells me and praise the guy but MGSV was a mess.
If people want to believe the mismanagement is intentional (even Kojima himself) but for anyone who has actually played the game you know that is bollocks. If Kojima wanted to make an unsatisfying game because meta well congrats...he certainly did that (not just talking about the story here either)
Usually I'd buy any logic/excuses Kojima sells me and praise the guy but MGSV was a mess.
paradise_circus
Member
Man that's like the ending of Stephen King's the dark tower. The ending was totally fine, but one last touch to actually get to the ending is missing.
Dragon1893
Member
What a bunch of BS.
Damn, if Kojima is linking these lame apologists' texts then the criticism must have got to him.
The exact same thing as the bolded happened to me. Chapter 2 was farcical, the plot as a whole was rubbish. It is what it is.
The exact same thing as the bolded happened to me. Chapter 2 was farcical, the plot as a whole was rubbish. It is what it is.
I think the problem people have is that what's actually in the game, story-wise, isn't really great. To have the game being unfinished on top of that makes it a bit of a problem.
Plus TPP is a MGS game, meaning it still has cheesy dialogue and really dumb as fuck scenes (look no further than Quiet), so I can't really see the Kafka comparison. I mean, I could understand if what was there is actually really amazing, but other than the gameplay, it isn't.
"I don't like how the plot feels unfinished and doesn't have a satisfying conclusion and has hanging plot threads"
"That's not a valid criticism."
"uhhh"
what do you want me to say? You can criticize anything for just about anything. And as i said earlier, i have problems with the plot as a whole.
The fact that unfinished works have impressed people is irrelevant as to whether 'the state of being unfinished' is a valid criticism. Even those impressive works may have been better than they were had they been finished.
For most people, there is an assumption that an artist goes into a project with a vision or goal, and if the work is unfinished then what we are seeing does not fully show us that vision, leaving us short-changed or in the dark as to how to read it. If an artist dies or has something else happen then that's perfectly understandable and you judge it how it lies. If it's 'we need to make money, push this unfinished story out the door now' then people are going to be upset and not give the art in question any benefit of the doubt.
We can't say for sure that MGSV is unfinished. But if it's not then the writing and pacing is absurdly bad, which is why people suggest it is. Neither is flattering to Kojima.
Teuoxton
Member
More like
MGSV Subscription lol
MillionStabs
Banned
Still don't understand the whole "player becomes Big Boss" symbolism.
Maybe it's a Japanese thing.
Maybe it's a Japanese thing.
The big problem isn't that the story is unfinished, it being pretty bad/boring and unsatisfying with bland writing is the problem.
Even if we count out how irrelevant the story is and how it doesn't tie in with the series in a meaningful way, it presented the whole "it's about you, the player" in a pretty brazen and crappy way. You're not yourself in the game, venom boss isn't a silent personalised protagonist that you're supposed to put yourself in through the game. He clearly is his own character that got his own morals that doesn't necessarily coincide with mine and so on like BB, so I never was either myself/the player or Big boss.
southerncross
Member
Posts like "story-wise, [it] isn't really great, because X has no satisfying resolution...", is worthwhile in discussion. Making driveby posts like "lol it's unfinished why you're defending it" is not. And there is an awful lot of those here. Meanwhile, whether the game is all its creators wanted to be is irrelevant.
Killing_Joke
Member
I love MGS. Played the games 100's of times each including re-buying them numerous times.
I have no desire to replay MGSV(Like MGSPW) ever again. :/
I've played MGS4 my least favorite a bunch of times opening weekend. 10+ times again within a week when going for the platinum.
It's not a bad game. But going open world fucking sucked. I was stunned how empty the map and even the motherbase felt. It destroyed the pacing between cutscenes and gameplay that all the MGS games did so great especially MGS4. The mission structure is horrible, it ruined the flow. And why oh fucking why are EACH missions little episodes? This isn't a Telltale/episodic game. I don't need credits and music every 5 minutes. And why did they even bother with a chapter 2 that was completely empty in content?
Very disappointed. People hate MGS4 but i'll take a linear, cutscene heavy, full of epic moments any day of the week. Because that MGS being MGS whether you hate it or love it. This is MGS trying to be something else and it sucked.
I have no desire to replay MGSV(Like MGSPW) ever again. :/
I've played MGS4 my least favorite a bunch of times opening weekend. 10+ times again within a week when going for the platinum.
It's not a bad game. But going open world fucking sucked. I was stunned how empty the map and even the motherbase felt. It destroyed the pacing between cutscenes and gameplay that all the MGS games did so great especially MGS4. The mission structure is horrible, it ruined the flow. And why oh fucking why are EACH missions little episodes? This isn't a Telltale/episodic game. I don't need credits and music every 5 minutes. And why did they even bother with a chapter 2 that was completely empty in content?
Very disappointed. People hate MGS4 but i'll take a linear, cutscene heavy, full of epic moments any day of the week. Because that MGS being MGS whether you hate it or love it. This is MGS trying to be something else and it sucked.
Didn't they patch in trophies like years later?
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Yep.
Embarrassing.
He said he played it that many times in one week once trophies were released.
PreFire
Member
Best gameplay, with a ridiculous stupid underwhelming horrible unfinished story.
I don't agree with him. This is bullshit.
At least give us quiet back so I can play the game again. It's fucking dumb that she's gone but you can replay every mission.
It seems Kojima is on Rockstars dick so hard that he even kept the permanent death or exit of Quiet just like GTA V did with the choose A or B mission.
MGS is not the typical open world. There are only bad guys around and they don't randomly wander at their bases. So why can't we keep a character when it's not a true open world?
Did people say that in this thread? I haven't seen anybody say that so blatantly.
misunderstood his post. I thought he meant he played a shitton of the first weekend, and went for the plat the next week.
I've heard the opposite too.
You shouldn't lose sleep over posters that make statements like that.
Outrun
Member
I feel the same way.
We know that the game is not finished from a narrative point of view.
Spinning it as if were otherwise is not good cricket.
Yes it is embarrassing and it is equally embarrassing to the way some people express their disappointment for this game in such a spiteful manner.
Some people voice their disappointment towards MGSV/Kojima maturely, constructively and politely. And that is awesome.
But then the majority of the people (a look at the first page of this thread can give some examples) react really immaturely.
So in my opinion both sides become equally embarrassing.
swearing-circle
Member
I liked the ending of MGS5 after much reflection. People keep complaining how we didn't see Big Boss become a villain but I feel that MGS5 perfectly illustrates that.
Big Boss does to Venom (you) exactly what the US did to The Boss. He uses you to save his own ass and abandons Kaz to create his own outer heaven. The white petals at the start of the hospital scene also highlight this.
The final scene also implies that Big Boss is sending Venom to his death. You are Venom snake and you are supposed to feel betrayed by BB. Well, at least I did. Seriously, BB is a dick and has been since Peace Walker. A likeable one but yeah, that's the danger of legends and perception.
Furthermore, I agree with posts that say the ending essentially re-contextualises the hours of gameplay before it.
However, I don't agree with the statements that mission 51 was cut for any artistic purpose. I'm sure it was literally cut due to time constraints and it honestly is a kick in the teeth. The games first chapter has decent pacing but chapter 2 fails in that regard and I honestly believe Mission 51 would've helped to alleviate some of the issues.
Also, the final mission of the game just being the hospital level again was awful. The twist was not bad in my opinion but the lead up to it was. We had some not so subtle hints throughout that we weren't playing as BB but some build up to the revelation was desperately needed.
Overall, I like the twist because I feel that it does conclude Big Boss' decent into becoming a villain in a way that doesn't smack you over the head with it. Not to mention the final cutscene with the mirror and DD emblem becoming the outer heaven emblem is good story telling as it follows the rule of 'show don't tell.' Something which MGS4 got completely wrong.
Big Boss does to Venom (you) exactly what the US did to The Boss. He uses you to save his own ass and abandons Kaz to create his own outer heaven. The white petals at the start of the hospital scene also highlight this.
The final scene also implies that Big Boss is sending Venom to his death. You are Venom snake and you are supposed to feel betrayed by BB. Well, at least I did. Seriously, BB is a dick and has been since Peace Walker. A likeable one but yeah, that's the danger of legends and perception.
Furthermore, I agree with posts that say the ending essentially re-contextualises the hours of gameplay before it.
However, I don't agree with the statements that mission 51 was cut for any artistic purpose. I'm sure it was literally cut due to time constraints and it honestly is a kick in the teeth. The games first chapter has decent pacing but chapter 2 fails in that regard and I honestly believe Mission 51 would've helped to alleviate some of the issues.
Also, the final mission of the game just being the hospital level again was awful. The twist was not bad in my opinion but the lead up to it was. We had some not so subtle hints throughout that we weren't playing as BB but some build up to the revelation was desperately needed.
Overall, I like the twist because I feel that it does conclude Big Boss' decent into becoming a villain in a way that doesn't smack you over the head with it. Not to mention the final cutscene with the mirror and DD emblem becoming the outer heaven emblem is good story telling as it follows the rule of 'show don't tell.' Something which MGS4 got completely wrong.
You can get Quiet back now with the most recent patch. You just have to play through the regular Cloaked in Silence mission a few times and defeat her non-lethally each time until a Reunion tag is added to the mission, and then go through that to bring her back for good.
Just to talk about the unreliable narrator part a bit more:
isn't that a parallel to Moby Dick since a significant portion of the book is focused on the narrator?
swearing-circle
Member
I'd say so, yes.
Ah. You said 'Game has problems beyond just story and it's open world design' and I asked you what problems, and you responded with problems to do with 'just story and open it's world design'.
I agree that there were big problems in the areas you mention, but the game still had a lot of content that was well paced and gave a pretty solid MGS narrative. For instance the post-Truth tapes are fucking brilliant, some of the best audio content I've ever heard in a game.
The travelling thing became irritating - I think the game should have offered two or three different 'insertion methods' to keep things fresh. On PC you can mod the game to skip the Helicopter Landings. It is fucking great. So fast, you're right into the gameplay. As usual, PC is sort of the definitive version. I'm playing Subsistence on every mission and skipping all annoying stuff on PC.
Yes it is. Well spotted.
Ishmael is the narrator in Moby Dick. Ahab is the focus of the story - a man who is on a wild goose chase, basically. An irredeemable quest. Sort of adds up.
What is the point of making the player do it so many times. That seems odd.
This.
For the first time in the series' history, the narrative didn't batter you around the head with it's resolution and 'final message'.
And the fans went insane.
We aren't sure, but it might be the first ever example of a non-Kojima Konami team making a change to the game.
1. They did a great job catering to the fans. Give something they wanted where Kojima pissed a lot of people off with that decision.
2. They also added the seemingly arbitrary replay count and nullified a key creative decision by Kojima. For the better or worse, though?
I gave you my other problems in the previous post.
Ah, I read those as fitting under the umbrella of 'open world design'. People often say open world design leads to repetitive bloat-activities, etc.
So you were talking more about the actual gameplay? The actual gameplay loops?
That's fair enough. I disagree still - but I can empathise.
No idea, but the mission takes no more than 4 minutes to run through if you use the supply drop method. She is back for good, though, even if you run through mission 45 again.
Incidentally, you can lose bond points if you complete mission 45 again and she ends up getting hit.
lol
I mean, you could look at it that way. What really happened was Big Boss
woke up from a coma, was told by Ocelot that Zero organized for him to have a body double, and decides to roll with it.
Even in this game he really isn't an evil character, or at least it isn't obvious. If Kojima wanted to make that parallel he could have done so much more obviously.
I have any problem with the gameplay side. But my big problem it's the story has really destroyed my passion for his gameplay; probably it's the better gameplay in the series but even the whole structure it's completely messed.For example more interesting would been to conquer the guard post, customize with our soldiers and in the city could to see the pedestrian after the liberation. What's the point to infinite respawn enemies? So much potential and so much waste.
But the story, yeah, just a better story with better main missions would have promote this game to my goty.
But the story, yeah, just a better story with better main missions would have promote this game to my goty.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Come on now. Without Kingdom of Flies, the game ends with "some kids took our nuclear mech! ...anyway."
You're telling me that's supposed to be left to the imagination?
If the two BB's met up, and at the end you're not sure who is who, that is an acceptable loose thread. Having children steal a nuclear super weapon and then never do anything about it is beyond silly.
You're telling me that's supposed to be left to the imagination?
If the two BB's met up, and at the end you're not sure who is who, that is an acceptable loose thread. Having children steal a nuclear super weapon and then never do anything about it is beyond silly.
Fate/Cipher
Member
Having to track down the Legendary Gunsmith three times would be an example of disrupting the game's balance. Filling the hole of a plot point opened up more than halfway into the game couldn't possibly be disruptive, even in the slightest. Metal Gear Solid V is a great game, but there's no reason anyone should feel ashamed for wanting a portion of the game that was taken out, even more so due to that chunk of game representing the intended ending.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
I loved the gameplay, but that Kojima brand of off the wall crazy bullshit was notably absent. For me the gameplay more than made up for it.
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