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Now that the dust is settled, Quiet's probably the most embarrassing gaming character
- Thread starter ZombiePlatypus
- Start date
Exploratory
Banned
Come on guys are we really equating Raiden to Quiet? This is why threads like these are always such a joke because people try to look at things through a lens that ignores a real world. Raiden being naked does not equal Quiet being basically naked all the time.
You can't equate the two at all. This is the same argument people use when saying that if a male is practically naked its a OK and the same as when it happens to a female. Male objectification isn't a widespread problem now or historically and often its played up for laughs. Sometimes it's just used to support the male fantasy the game is already feeding into.
Let's all be a little smarter about this. It's easy to say I'm not sexist or I don't objectify women that shit is easy. It's a lot harder to condemn that shit in popular media you enjoy that's when you actually put your cards on the table and reveal who you are.
Which religion? All of them? We're talking about a game made in Japan. Japan isn't very Christian. So if it's "all of them" then you're just talking about human nature.
partyphone
Banned
I submit that it is you who is being oversensitive. you're so afraid of engaging in criticism of a video game character that you completely dismiss an entire thread with a single word.
I have no troubles with sexualization (heck i legitimately giggled at various Dragon's Crown characters) generally, but Quiet's rain scene made me cringe.
It was just so bad and unexpected. Only thing that was going through my head was "why you do this Kojima". So unnecessary.
It didnt "offend" or "enrage me" or send me on a twitter spree or anything, simply made me sad that a game like Metal Gear who most certainly doesnt need tits&ass to sell had to stoop as low as trash tier animu games. Meh.
It was just so bad and unexpected. Only thing that was going through my head was "why you do this Kojima". So unnecessary.
It didnt "offend" or "enrage me" or send me on a twitter spree or anything, simply made me sad that a game like Metal Gear who most certainly doesnt need tits&ass to sell had to stoop as low as trash tier animu games. Meh.
Ha ha! I love illuminating posts like these: "F**k this discourse on gender representation and objectification; just show me some tits."
80s Bad Guy
Banned
And even that lovely girl was a bit surprised by the final character design. It's straight up Kojima's adolescent misogyny showing through the cracks of his genius again. And I find no merit to the culture argument.
Thank you, I will follow your advise, but please don't put words into my mouth. I haven't even used the words 'culture' and 'bad'.
the bolded part: is that even possible??? How so? Isn't 'culture' already the sum of all individual outputs of a cohabitation/society. For example you can say: the European culture had a deep impact (language) on the indigenous cultures of South America through colonialization, which makes 'deep impact on...' and 'colonialization' a part of European culture for good or for worse.
How is anyone being "oversensitive?"
Quiet's design is as extreme as it could be without her being naked.
I think what you are asking is "stop being sensitive at all."
Totally agree, and this is essentially where my thoughts were too. I agree that it's relatively childish to objectify women in this way but found myself more curious as to whether or not people are honestly offended by it or if it was a case of jumping on the PC bandwagon.
The arguments people have put forward after my post are written fantastically without resorting to the type of reply that you two guys have mentioned above. It's nice to have healthy debate on both sides without people immediately being jumped on or branded.
I had noticed that gamergate seemed to be a recent catalyst for this type of thing. I agree that the medium of gaming is mainly aimed at young(ish) males so the content within will ultimately reflect that. Do people think that developers aren't going to pander to that? It's a similar situation to the race discussions we have - again it's predominately white males that buy the games so we see mainly white characters. There are exceptions of course but the developers aim games at the target audience. Does this make it right? Of course not but you can understand why things are designed the way they are. Money talks I guess regardless of what is right. I think it's society in general that needs change as opposed to just games.
The ever loving Dick Defense Force and their artistic vision, hypocrites all around.
GiantBreadbug
Member
Holy fuck dude. Holy fuck.
Edit: Okay wasn't paying attention. Good to see you gone if you seriously are this way.
YianGaruga
Banned
I don't follow. Your example is a definition, not a critique. A close up shot is a close up shot, sure. But a critique requires that you look at all those elements and base your arguments and your conlusion on those. Of course you can make mistakes here and your critique can be challenged and discussed, debated. Not saying that you did, but to assert that a critique is automatically some universal truth is strange.
Offended is a funny word these days. It gets thrown around a lot as someone one should never be, or as a way to reduce criticism into a single word to dismiss.
I'm not exactly "offended" by Quiet's design... Frustrated that it's in a game I'd otherwise want to play?
It's entirely a matter of context; Quiet's design would make sense in a light hearted cheesecake romp like those bikini zombie killer games I know exist but generally ignore. It's that she's in a game about child soldiers etc etc etc... the dozen or so distasteful aspects of her character have been articulated better by others in this thread so I assume you've read them already, but "that's offensive" isn't my main thought it's more "that's really dumb pandering and the attempted justifications in-game for her design are insulting to my intelligence."
Vlaphor
Member
One thing about these discussions that always kind of worries me is this suggestion that we should change games in order to influence society, and that does kind of terrify me. It sounds virtually identical to arguments made about violence and obscene themes in media as well. That we need to stop them to save the youth and whatnot. I know nobody is talking about outright banning fanservice now, but that's right now. What about later? I cannot get aboard the idea of changing media to influence society, no matter the cause, even if it's one I somewhat agree with (such as making games more inclusive). I think the best method for doing that comes from better education, from both schools and parents, and reinforcing the difference between fantasy and reality.
As for why this terrifies me, read this.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...with-limiting-speech-offensive-to-minorities/
That people would be so happy to throw away free speech does not bode well for the future. I know people will frown on this post and say that I'm being hyperbolic, and that's your right to say that as well, but this is a concern of mine.
Edit-Thought I would add a little more to the end here. As for making games more inclusive, that's already happening. Games are more inclusive now than ever, and it was done through education and discussion. The existence of a Quiet doesn't take away from that.
an actual "academic critique" is not the same thing as a "critique". (tbh, you're taking a personal stance and not really meeting any of my points, you're saying apples to my oranges.)
it's not really as bad as you're thinking. The actual bits where they transition from beast to beauty are cool imagery with some weird bodyhorror in spots. it's the...rest of it that's kind of what you're thinking of. Having the wolf body vomit out a human that looks like an adult fetus is FUCKING NUTS but then she crawls around on all fours while the camera leers on her ass for most of the scene and the meaning is lost.
I will continue to call out things I find issue with, my child.
I mean holy shit the arguments are regressing "its not for everyone, deal" are you a child?
JonnyKtyler
Member
Have you all gotten past the part in the story where Quiet actually
? I felt like I understood the character way more after that, along with the whole
I felt like quiet ended up being a legit / pretty good character.
speaks
absorbing sunlight thing
I remember it well. It doesn't somehow improve the character or what came before.
So, actual character development doesn't improve a character?
Not defending the gross things that exist with Quiet, but I think you're saying something crazy.
She could dress like a nun and she would still be a weak character. Her actions are nonsensical as is her growth as a character. It's clear Kojima realized this game was a sausage fest and had to put in some sexy chick, but he put in the most uninteresting one possible. At least she is extremely valuable from a gameplay perspective.
The Jackdog
Member
when
she speaks i felt it didnt add anything.
the absorbing sunlight thing is a cop out considering you can give her outfits that cover her completely.
Not sure if all of them because there is a shitload of religions in the world, but most religions use this because it is the easiest way to control the workforce is to give sex as a reward for anything (sex after marriage/afterlife full of virgins) and sex can't be a reward if it is given any time
edit : Shinto also fits, since they are berserk in the "purification" thing ...
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
In the US maybe, globally... not so much.
Like it or not, Quiet is the product of another culture and prism of societal experience.
Obviously, if MGSV was headed up by a 20-something American liberal-arts graduate it would be a different game to one run by a 50 year-old Japanese man. Not to suggest one is better or worse than the other, just that the sensibilities informing the design choices would be poles-apart.
I didn't comment of the basic concept of Quiet but the narrative reasoning is thin and only serves as a justification for the perversion. Weird parasite nonsense with skin breathing fine whatever I've seen weirder shit. But the justification for the outfit is so so weak, also I just don't like the character but that's a separate issue. I do agree about the B&B squad being far worst.
Quiet starts a pet and ends a speaking pet. Development or no it failed to make a more interesting character.
DoctorFling
Member
I liked Quiet, thought she was pretty neat. Hardly brought her with me though, liked my dog too much. Don't find her embarrassing personally.
Roran Stehl
Member
So would you say that the sexualisation of the DoAX characters are less of an issue than Quiet's?
I see exactly what you mean, and your reason for not liking it is well thought out and written. It's not you that my original post was aimed at, it's more for people that immediately see this type of thread and tell everybody how awful they are without any sort of rational argument. Some people can't explain why they find it embarrassing/offensive and those are the ones I allude to in asking whether they're really affected at all.
For what it's worth I find Quiet to be an attempt at creating eye candy but it was poorly executed (with the way Kojima had tried to make out that there was more to it etc). No more, no less. Sometimes things don't require any more thought.
Memorabilia
Member
Quiet is pretty embarrassing but...
...I still think DmC Dante was worse
LMAO did this actually happen in the game or is that an altered pic?
Moon_frogger
Member
Quiet indeed represents all women in mgsv outside of the tapes, the Paz scenes(also weirdly voyeurishly sexualized) and the odd, random mother base solider.
Nobody is overreacting. Most of us still played and loved the game. Quiet was largely a life support system for tits and ass. And she was pretty much the only female representation in the game. The boss is an AI robot in v.
Also, saying 'that's just quiets character' is hilarious. Lack of clothing and a camera that constantly zooms in on crotch, boobs and ass is not a character. Hahahaha.
Happened in game, I believe he's flipping off a demonic camera.
Vlaphor
Member
I kinda enjoyed the time where he and a boss cussed each other out for a short while.
silvermember
Banned
DoAx doesn't pretend to be more it really is. The problem with quiet is that in the context of the game her very existence makes absolutely no sense. In a game where everyone is treated "normal" like a person. She gets treated like a pet women. She Exist solely to please her man, in a game where no one else is doing the same.
To me she is a contradiction to the whole game. Everything about her characterization makes absolutely no sense.
That's my headcanon now.
Roran Stehl
Member
I agree with your post, and this is why I am so adamant regarding artistic freedom.
At the same time, I think that there is real value in observing how a game done with current codes is in fact a reflection of the society around it and it's interaction with it. I personally like the analysis but what worries me is when people go full-judgemtal, very reminiscent of the religious shaming approaches.
I guess things are complex overall!
I haven't played MGSV but out of curiousity I did watch all of the Quiet cutscenes and I have to say I don't really have a problem with the character. I actually find her pretty interesting and if she ever showed up in a future game as the main character, I would totally be down for playing it.
The problem I did have though, involving her character, was the constant camera shift and zoom on to her boobs and butt almost constantly. That was really not needed and pretty distracting.
The problem I did have though, involving her character, was the constant camera shift and zoom on to her boobs and butt almost constantly. That was really not needed and pretty distracting.
RedlineRonin
Member
Whole heartedly agree with most of the comments in this thread. She definitely doesn't help to propel the medium forward.
Where I can show people games like TLoU and the emotion the characters convey, and feel proud about the medium, I can show some of those same scenes, that convey some of the same emotion in mgs V, and they're completely degraded by the fact that the first thing people will likely notice is jiggly boob physics. It's just one of those things I shake my head at.
Where I can show people games like TLoU and the emotion the characters convey, and feel proud about the medium, I can show some of those same scenes, that convey some of the same emotion in mgs V, and they're completely degraded by the fact that the first thing people will likely notice is jiggly boob physics. It's just one of those things I shake my head at.
I disagree. The perversion is it's own separate thing from the narrative justifications. You could apply those perversions to a fully dressed character like Meryl and it would still be that creepy porno stuff. It's the way they convey the character.
The Boss giving birth on the battlefield and needing to be cut up so they could remove the child from her body is justification for her showing her scar to snake at the end of MGS3, but because of the way they presented her, it wasn't perverted. She has her tits out the entire fight and it is not played for sex appeal one bit.
Quiet's burnt up lungs are why minimal clothing on her upper torso makes sense, but it's not why she's played for sex appeal in so much of that game. That's a 4th wall decision, not a conceptual one. They could have done SO much better without rewriting any of that, but they treated her unfairly in their depiction and the character suffers for it. What should be a way to better understand her ends up as cheesecake because of the execution. It's fucked. They fucked it.
RevolverRoden
Member
In a way I'd like this and think its cool because I like being a hipster, but quiet was just straight garbage and there are no excuses hahaha
Every time I'm reminded of Kojima and this character, I think of Mark Kermode's Transformers 3 review and how he described Michael Bay as having a pornographic sensibility (starts at 3:47).
kavanf1
Member
It's interesting that nobody feels embarrassed about the objectification of strangling, stabbing, shooting or blowing up video game characters, but the moment there's something sexually objectified in a game, people lose the plot.
FWIW, I found some of Quiet's scenes a bit laughable for their cheesiness, but I don't feel embarrassed by them, any more than I would feel embarrassed to be watching a film where someone is sexually objectified.
FWIW, I found some of Quiet's scenes a bit laughable for their cheesiness, but I don't feel embarrassed by them, any more than I would feel embarrassed to be watching a film where someone is sexually objectified.
That reminds me. I need to play more MGS. I haven't gotten to her yet.
Violence Jack
Member
I gave up on MGSV when it got to the Quiet "rain" scene. It just felt so unneeded and didn't seem to add much to her character. To be fair, I was starting to get a little tired of the game after Chapter 1 anyway. The Quiet scene just happened to be the point that I gave it up.
That being said, after watching the rest of the game on YouTube, I actually ended up liking her character, and wouldn't mind playing an MGS prequel starring her. She was incredibly useful during the missions, and her ending was good, yet still felt incomplete. I can appreciate some eye-candy, but the camera close ups of her tits and ass got to the point of being annoying and didn't really seem to fit with the tone of the game. In comparison, something like Bayonetta was meant from the start to be over-the-top and the tone in both games reflected that.
That being said, after watching the rest of the game on YouTube, I actually ended up liking her character, and wouldn't mind playing an MGS prequel starring her. She was incredibly useful during the missions, and her ending was good, yet still felt incomplete. I can appreciate some eye-candy, but the camera close ups of her tits and ass got to the point of being annoying and didn't really seem to fit with the tone of the game. In comparison, something like Bayonetta was meant from the start to be over-the-top and the tone in both games reflected that.
The whole point of the game IS the killing and violence.
No one is bothered that a porno is showing skin or whatever,
people however would be outraged if you put a gonzo scene in Transformers for example.
lifa-cobex
Member
Yea I can go with that POV.
Having Quite dress like that wasn't exactly necessary but it's not exactly unnecessary.
It hurts no one unless you feel the need that it should.
Different perceptions yada yada i'm sure you get it.
Just because I believe in something, doesn't mean it's the "correct" viewpoint for everyone else.
I believe limiting freedom's can take a snowball effect.
Don't get me wrong. Just because I don't really give a crap about PC politics, doesn't mean I'm right about not giving a crap.
There might be areas completely unrelated that might need a look at
But in the area of Quite or of female depiction of games in general, I feel like it's people making something out of nothing.
I've had the argument shown to me about influencing younger generations and it effecting how they will view women in the future.
I attempted to point out that perhaps games weren't the first port in this case and perhaps photo shopped women on mag covers would probably have a more subconscious effect.
I also tried to point out about violence being related to gaming and how it was disproved but apparently that was unrelated.
I was met with the reply of go educate yourself.
Now to put a spin on it,
Yes I believe developers should have creative freedom to create what ever they feel like.
However,
I don't feel as though artist have been that creative with women in games through recent years. Especially in the RPG genre.
Now because of the issues around the PC crowds, I wounder if a developer created a female character that wasn't a average looking, good looking or hot. Would it be valued as part of what the creator actually wanted or looked-upon as a means to appease the views of the PC crowd.
Seven4sses
Member
The five minutes into booting the game made me hate her since she was trying to kill you from the get-go. The outfit later on was just fluff. Too bad her voice had to go because it was decent.
Just because another, more popular form of media can influence people in a bigger way doesn't mean that smaller forms of media should be excused from critique and criticism.
And you really should educate yourself on how media (all forms of it) can affect and influence people, and why representation of all forms is important, even if it's hard to measure exactly. It's actually really interesting stuff, IMO.
BadAss2961
Member
I meant Quiet isn't a portrayal of your average woman in the real world, nor is she meant to be. The character is way off the wall like many things in the series.
The rain scene was over the top, but not out of line for her character. Someone earlier compared her to Eva and how Eva's behavior makes sense because she wants to bone Snake. Well, I thought it was obvious that Quiet develops a crush for Snake as you bond with her. The higher the bond, the more flirty she is in the chopper. By the end I actually credited this part of the story since they just become bros instead of the usual romance.
I find DoAX easier to ignore the existence of, yeah.
It's still gross, but hey, it's not a series I've ever cared about, its up front about what it's about and doesn't pretend to not be soft core wank fodder.