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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Thread #2) - One Thumb Up

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Kibbles

Kibbles

Member
Is there really a debate about Rey being Luke's daughter? I see that popping up a lot and idk I thought it was pretty clear given her abilities and the fact the flashback showed Luke with R2D2 and the Knights of Ren fucking the place before chasing her down. Then it one of them taking her as a baby on Jakku where a ship flies away. The elder alien who's name I forgot says the person she is waiting for on Jakku will never come back - I can only imagine that was her mother being taken away in the ship in the flashback and that she was killed, but that there is still someone - which I assume she meant Luke.
 
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Brakke

Banned
GhaleonEB said:
For #2, it's the junkyard owner, the guy behind the counter giving out portions. #3 does seem ambiguous, but I just took it as Han not wanting to say it was his kid that did it.
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Ohh word. Was that him holding her hand? I was focused on the shuttle, the person holding her didn't jump out at me as alien but that would make sense.
 
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injurai

Banned
OnPoint said:
An idea on how Kylo Ren may have been aware of Rey.
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I thought it was because he had a bounty out for Poe, Finn, and BB-8. Then She was found to be with Finn and BB-8. I don't think Kylo ever knew about her before hand, then references the girl a few times once he becomes aware that she is a thorn in his side.
 
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OnPoint

Member
injurai said:
I thought it was because he had a bounty out for Poe, Finn, and BB-8. Then She was found to be with Finn and BB-8. I don't think Kylo ever knew about her before hand, then references the girl a few times once he becomes aware that she is a thorn in his side.
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The time I'm talking about is when he drags the dude toward him with his force choke. If I'm not mistaken, he hasn't yet experienced any reference to her in movie. His anger seemed pretty severe and direct for just a random girl, and I say this after watching it a second time. He seemed like he was looking for confirmation on the girl's identity, not expressing surprise at there being a girl in general.
 
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injurai

Banned
OnPoint said:
The time I'm talking about is when he drags the dude toward him with his force choke. If I'm not mistaken, he hasn't yet experienced any reference to her in movie. His anger seemed pretty severe and direct for just a random girl, and I say this after watching it a second time. He seemed like he was looking for confirmation on the girl's identity, not expressing surprise at there being a girl in general.
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I need to watch it again. I thought he was just upset with his men's failure to track down BB-8.
 
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Brakke

Banned
Kibbles said:
Is there really a debate about Rey being Luke's daughter? I see that popping up a lot and idk I thought it was pretty clear given her abilities and the fact the flashback showed Luke with R2D2 and the Knights of Ren fucking the place before chasing her down. Then it one of them taking her as a baby on Jakku where a ship flies away. The elder alien who's name I forgot says the person she is waiting for on Jakku will never come back - I can only imagine that was her mother being taken away in the ship in the flashback and that she was killed, but that there is still someone - which I assume she meant Luke.
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The vision is super tricky. You say the Knights of Ren fuck the place before chasing "her" down. But do they? In the left-on-the-planet scene, Rey sees herself in third person; in the Ren-stabbing-a-dude scene, Rey experiences it in first person. Feels like the point-of-view of the vision should be consistent? So was Rey even present for the Knights-in-the-rain scene?

It's also kind of just sad if she's Luke's. That means Luke abandoned her and maybe sealed her memory or something since she thinks he's just a legend.

bodyofanamerican said:
She kiiiiinda stalks her downed prey like Maul a little bit, no? Or am I making that up?
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Kylo goes down. There's a mid-range shot of him downed and her standing, then a shot on her, then the earthquake. She doesn't move toward him in either of those shots and she definitely doesn't raise her saber. The shot on her face might've been fury but it might've just been catching-breath and considering. In the book she very obviously wants to finish Kylo off but on the screen I don't think it's clear. In my heart I'm taking the book as explaining what she was thinking when she was standing still.

plasmawave said:
She doesn't strike me as a character who would kill a defenseless man.
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That's why it's an exciting idea. You wouldn't think she would so it's cool if she does. Likewise, you wouldn't think Kylo is a moody emo guy, but he is capable of that. It's fun if Kylo is a Dark Sider struggling with his inner Light and Rey is a Light Sider struggling with her inner Dark.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
injurai said:
I need to watch it again. I thought he was just upset with his men's failure to track down BB-8.
Click to expand...

I kind of thought that on my first viewing. But the second time around... man, I don't know. As always, could be reading into it, but it just seems like there's something more to it. There were a few scenes like that, honestly.
 
L

LookAtMeGo

Member
OnPoint said:
The time I'm talking about is when he drags the dude toward him with his force choke. If I'm not mistaken, he hasn't yet experienced any reference to her in movie. His anger seemed pretty severe and direct for just a random girl, and I say this after watching it a second time. He seemed like he was looking for confirmation on the girl's identity, not expressing surprise at there being a girl in general.
Click to expand...
Thats what I took from that as well.
 
B

Bloomers

Member
Mega said:
Me too and badly. I want one of three things:

1. He has no Force powers but develops them through sheer spirit and hard word. This would be a huge paradigm shift away from the Force being limited to "special" people with high midichlorians and from certain bloodlines.

2. Similar to above, he has very subtle Force sensitivity that would never get him detected and selected for Jedi training... but he grows his power anyway, opening up the door to the fact that many more power in the universe than suspected can develop Force powers, not just obvious prodigies.

3. He has no Force ability but discovers the Force isn't all powerful and a lone person of strong will, intelligence and ingenuity can resist and overcome a Force user under the right circumstances. Jango Fett sort of demonstrated this against random Jedi but not really when you consider the quick Mace Windu confrontation. Jabba is also immune to Force mind control. Then stormtrooper had a weapon that could easily counter a lightsaber. Chewie landed a clean shot on Kylo. Someone needs to bring all the elements together to show that Jedi aren't near-invincible superheroes.
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I would love to see any of these, especially the 2nd idea.
The writers have a really great opportunity to build a great character that also supports some subtle world-building.
 
T

titiklabingapat

Member
Saw the movie and I liked it but it doesn't feel quite as epic. I mean, it obviously should be because of the set up: the First Order built a super weapon and killed a few planets.

But then we get the resistance that looked like it only had thirty ships trying to kill off the super weapon and the First Order only had TIE fighters when it should have had medium sized and bigger ships guarding the said super weapon. Also, they should have had more TIE fighters as well. It just seems....so inadequate considering the stakes.

One thing the prequels did right was show how huge and vast the galaxy is, and how much resources were being funneled into the war effort by both the Separatists and the Republic.
 
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bodyofanamerican

Member
Brakke said:
The vision is super tricky. You say the Knights of Ren fuck the place before chasing "her" down. But do they? In the left-on-the-planet scene, Rey sees herself in third person; in the Ren-stabbing-a-dude scene, Rey experiences it in first person. Feels like the point-of-view of the vision should be consistent? So was Rey even present for the Knights-in-the-rain scene?

It's also kind of just sad if she's Luke's. That means Luke abandoned her and maybe sealed her memory or something since she thinks he's just a legend.



Kylo goes down. There's a mid-range shot of him downed and her standing, then a shot on her, then the earthquake. She doesn't move toward him in either of those shots and she definitely doesn't raise her saber. The shot on her face might've been fury but it might've just been catching-breath and considering. In the book she very obviously wants to finish Kylo off but on the screen I don't think it's clear. In my heart I'm taking the book as explaining what she was thinking when she was standing still.



That's why it's an exciting idea. You wouldn't think she would so it's cool if she does. Likewise, you wouldn't think Kylo is a moody emo guy, but he is capable of that. It's fun if Kylo is a Dark Sider struggling with his inner Light and Rey is a Light Sider struggling with her inner Dark.
Click to expand...

Yep, 100% agreed. To be clear on my thoughts, my interpretation jibes with the novel, where she considers but recoils from the Dark Side, just like Kylo with the Light. The difference being, Kylo pretty definitively ended his relationship with the Light.
 
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Ether_Snake

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sphagnum said:
Hey guys, I found an interesting conversation between Pablo Hidalgo and a twitter user thanks to TFN that I think will shake up how we think of Rey and Kylo's histories.

https://mobile.twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/679445947693182976

Basically, we shouldnt be calling Luke's organization an 'academy', implying it was small or not at a certain location, and the attack happened relatively recently in terms of its relation to the film. This almost certainly means Rey was dropped off on Jakku BEFORE the attack.

Also, in other Pablo confirmations, Kylo says 'It is you!' to Rey in the novel (and was going to in the movie but the line was cut) not bc he knows her but bc he realizes the awakening he felt is in her. So the emphasis is probably on 'you' and not 'is'.

ALSO TFA was originally called 'Shadow of the Empire' (not shadows).

Lastly, here's an excerpt from the novel of Han and Leia talking about Snoke and Kylo, giving a bit more detail. I think this implies we'll get to know Snoke shortly after RotJ since kylo wouldve been born around the time of the Battle of Jakku.
Click to expand...


If the scene with Kylo is set not so long ago, then either the guy Kylo kills was filmed in a way that made it look like he was going to kill the person Rey is seeing herself as, or it was just an impression not meant to be given at all.

The fact Rey's face switches to what looks like Snoke for a moment is weird. Possible that Kylo and the knights joined the first order before Snoke? Then they went and saved him from those folks? Maybe Snoke is actually very weak, which would go in line with his design and some of his description. He might have been powerful in the past, but not anymore, kind of like Yoda (before the stupid prequels). Still an important teacher.

If the first order is somewhat church-like, they could see Snoke as the rightful heir to the emperor's throne simply for being very knowledgeable in the dark side of the force.

If the vision is showing us Kylo and his knights saving Snoke, bringing him to the order, thzt could be an interesting take instead of repeating the Vader-Palpie dynamic.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
Brakke said:
The vision is super tricky. You say the Knights of Ren fuck the place before chasing "her" down. But do they? In the left-on-the-planet scene, Rey sees herself in third person; in the Ren-stabbing-a-dude scene, Rey experiences it in first person. Feels like the point-of-view of the vision should be consistent? So was Rey even present for the Knights-in-the-rain scene?

It's also kind of just sad if she's Luke's. That means Luke abandoned her and maybe sealed her memory or something since she thinks he's just a legend.
Click to expand...

It's completely possible that Luke went the way of his father in terms of abandoning her. She probably never even knew he was her father. Luke could've been focusing on training potential Jedi-After all Leia mentions that she had to send Kylo away to Luke, implying that he wasn't hanging around being the mystical uncle. He probably secluded himself and his students. To simply teach the way of the force and to continue it-Not to meander in politics or use the power for anything.
 
C

CreepingFear

Member
titiklabingapat said:
One thing the prequels did right was show how huge and vast the galaxy is, and how much resources were being funneled into the war effort by both the Separatists and the Republic.
Click to expand...

Yet, I didn't give a fuck about the planets when we saw the montage of Order 66. We saw fucking Kashyyk on the big screen and I felt numb inside. If only Kashyyk was used in Return of the Jedi with Wookiees instead of Ewoks...
 
D

Doctoglethorpe

Member
Ive come to the conclusion that Luke didnt abandon her.

I think Kylo kidnapped her and ditched her on Jakku to spare her life. He didnt want to kill her.

He probably sees this as a great moment of weakness that hes now trying to compensate for. Ironic them that his first mistake will probably be the one that leads to his death in the end.

Idk.
 
V

Voror

Member
Got back a little while back. Overall quite liked it and looking forward to seeing where all this goes as well as curious what each of the directors for the others bring to the table. I must confess to being a tad leery about Episode IX's director given the only film from him I'm familiar with is Jurassic World. Not familiar with Rian Johnson's work much either, but I've always heard good things anyway.

If I were to name a main negative, it would be how much it adheres to the OT a bit too much at times, especially with Starkiller base. I can only hope that we don't end up with another one, though I didn't exactly get the impression Snoke was too upset about it. That'll have to wait of course until next time. I also really wanted more background info on the rise of the First Order and what the status of the Republic was. Like was that Coruscant we saw get destroyed? How badly did that attack hurt them? I felt like I didn't exactly know where things stood with both sides despite it being a Resistance victory.

I like pretty much all the new characters. Rey is pretty interesting for the most part and her journey her of eventually letting go of that hope she held about her family and finally moving forward was a good story beat. She seemed to pick up and grasp the Force pretty fast I'll say, which was pretty interesting along with not being a bad hand at all against Kylo Ren despite him having a lot more training. She seems the most untapped though of the new leads so she's one whose progress I'm especially curious to see. I don't think she's a Solo but she could be a Skywalker. Or someone random which is fine too.

Finn's is a good story of someone realizing they don't like where they are or what they're doing and seizing a chance to get away when it comes. That moment where you see all the others follow orders while he starts to but then just can't do it was a good one despite the fact we hadn't seen his face yet. It's kind of funny how eager and excitable he was. I think part of it was that I tended to think Stormtroopers are always super disciplined without much in the way of excitability to them. He did a decent enough job with the lightsaber once he started using it for someone with no training with it at all despite losing both battles and having no Force powers at all. No idea where he'll go for here now that he seems to have found a place for himself with the Resistance.

Kylo Ren is an interesting villain overall. The almost casual reveal of his parentage was surprising, but I rather liked it in the end. It's funny that he ultimately is this sort of Vader fanboy and wants to be like him so much to adopting the mask and all that. He's clearly very powerful even without being fully trained as mentioned by Snoke, but he demonstrates some new techniques like stopping the bolt in midair along with that freeze ability. His tantrums were funny though I liked that he seemed more focused on destroying his surrounding environment then his own troops, though whether that is due to realizing that killing the help isn't that great an idea I don't know. I really dig the concept here of someone of the dark side feeling the pull of the light and trying to resist it with him even describing it as a seduction to it. I'm interested what he'll be like in future films after killing Han and presumably being further trained. I'm not sure if they'll go for the redemption angle since Han tried and failed here.

Poe was fun despite not being in much of the film overall. I liked how quickly he warmed up to Finn and that moment where they saw one another again. Guy really is an amazing pilot with how many we saw him take down. I'd imagine we'll see more of him again, but I'd totally be up for a spinoff film featuring him and perhaps a squad. I've been wanting a Rogue Squadron movie ever since reading the old EU books.

Harrison Ford was a delight here and I loved every minute he was on screen. I'm really going to miss him. I thought the death scene was well done for the most part though it wasn't like you couldn't see it coming. I felt like Han knew it too to some degree right before.

Probably a lot more I could talk about, but I need some sleep so I'll leave it here for now. I am interested further in this world. I've seen people recommend both Lost Stars and the Visual Dictionary as stuff for further reading. Would both those be good picks then like I've heard?
 
L

LookAtMeGo

Member
Doctoglethorpe said:
Ive come to the conclusion that Luke didnt abandon her.

I think Kylo kidnapped her and ditched her on Jakku to spare her life. He didnt want to kill her.

He probably sees this as a great moment of weakness that hes now trying to compensate for. Ironic them that his first mistake will probably be the one that leads to his death in the end.

Idk.
Click to expand...
I can dig it. I think this is possible.

It works with Lukes reaction (thought she was dead maybe? Although he should be able to sense her)

And it works with Kylos reaction to when he finds out about "the girl" they were with.
 
K

Kettch

Member
Doctoglethorpe said:
Ive come to the conclusion that Luke didnt abandon her.

I think Kylo kidnapped her and ditched her on Jakku to spare her life. He didnt want to kill her.

He probably sees this as a great moment of weakness that hes now trying to compensate for. Ironic them that his first mistake will probably be the one that leads to his death in the end.

Idk.
Click to expand...

That actually sounds really cool, I like that a lot. Added bonus of her not needing to be related to anyone, just a random jedi student.
 
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Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
If it's true that the vision she has of Kylo and his knights happened recently then there is no indication she was ever in contact with him at all. In that case she might really just be a kid who was abandoned by her family, no mind wipe. It pretty much blows up any theory about her being related to Kylo or Luke. There would be nothing indicating she has ever been with any jedis, that she lost her memory, etc.

Just an abandoned kid who is really hoping her family will come back, a family she evfn remembers.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Doctoglethorpe said:
Ive come to the conclusion that Luke didnt abandon her.

I think Kylo kidnapped her and ditched her on Jakku to spare her life. He didnt want to kill her.

He probably sees this as a great moment of weakness that hes now trying to compensate for. Ironic them that his first mistake will probably be the one that leads to his death in the end.

Idk.
Click to expand...

Slaughter grown students. Spare the little kid, but drop her in the middle of nowhere. I like the idea, at least in part because I feel like her being related to Luke is too obvious.

It would explain Kylo's reaction to their escape from Jakku. "What girl?!"
 
D

demosthenes

Member
Doctoglethorpe said:
Ive come to the conclusion that Luke didnt abandon her.

I think Kylo kidnapped her and ditched her on Jakku to spare her life. He didnt want to kill her.

He probably sees this as a great moment of weakness that hes now trying to compensate for. Ironic them that his first mistake will probably be the one that leads to his death in the end.

Idk.
Click to expand...

I've been thinking that someone else has had to do it that he thought she was dead or something.
 
J

janoDX

Member
Saw the movie again a couple hours ago and in my opinion, the sword fights were great, they felt real and raw, no flippy shit, no jumping everywhere, just straight up sword fights.
 
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Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
GhaleonEB said:
Slaughter grown students. Spare the little kid, but drop her in the middle of nowhere. I like the idea, at least in part because I feel like her being related to Luke is too obvious.

It would explain Kylo's reaction to their escape from Jakku. "What girl?!"
Click to expand...

What girl just means that. He is pissed to find out another person is involved when they already had trouble with Poe, the droid, the stormtrooper.
 
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Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Guys it is confirmed the events of the vision of Kylo happened recently. That wasn't really Rey present there. So no indication Kylo ever met her, let alone abandoned her on Jakku. It actually simplifies everything: she is really an orphan who was abandoned by her family, period. Everything else was stuff we assumed as a result of the vision.
 
B

bearythebear

Member
I really hope Rey isn't Luke's daughter. The character relationships shouldn't be so circular. I want to see more characters, and not have everyone kinda related to each other.
 
L

LookAtMeGo

Member
I kind of get the feeling that Kylo knows of her and has been jealous of her powers. Maybe the whole reason they attack the academy is to kill her and Luke got her out in time. But I also get the feeling he assumes its Rey when they mention "the girl" because he already knows she is on Jakku... or maybe he can just sense her.

If that stuff happened recently then whos to say those dead bodies in the vision are even those from the academy.
 
J

janoDX

Member
What if...

Rey is Han and Leia's daughter but they don't reveal it because of fear of Kylo knowing and maybe try to take Rey to the Dark Side. That's why when they talk to others about Rey in the movie it never shows.
 
D

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Ether_Snake said:
Guys it is confirmed the events of the vision of Kylo happened recently. That wasn't really Rey present there. So no indication Kylo ever met her, let alone abandoned her on Jakku. It actually simplifies everything: she is really an orphan who was abandoned by her family, period. Everything else was stuff we assumed as a result of the vision.
Click to expand...

I question how long she's really been on Jakku and if being left there as a child wasn't part of a memory wipe and reconstruction.

I'm sticking with my theory that she went really evil and Luke wiped her memory and gave her new ones ala Revan in KOTOR.
 
D

Doctoglethorpe

Member
I really feel like the casting alone makes it too obvious for her to not be a Skywalker. I mean theres a reason we all assumed it prior to release. She looks like one. And they picked her out of total obscurity. Thats what you do when you want someone who looks a role as much as their ability to act it.

The only thing that makes me question that logic is the fact that Adam Driver doesn't look even remotely related to Leia. A little Solo, but barely. *shrug*
 
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Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
DrForester said:
I question how long she's really been on Jakku and if being left there as a child wasn't part of a memory wipe and reconstruction.

I'm sticking with my theory that she went really evil and Luke wiped her memory and gave her new ones ala Revan in KOTOR.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna go with the simplest idea from here on out. She was abandoned by her family on Jakku. Nothing more. Everything else is extrapolation on top of extrapolation. Right now the facts give more credence to her being exactly what the movie told us.

The only thing that makes her special is that the force awakened in her.
 
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Ether_Snake

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Doctoglethorpe said:
Source? Or is that just your interpretation?
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You say the book confirms he knows her. That's wrong, it says nothing more than "so it IS you!". The simplest explanation is that this ties back to Kylo and Snoke saying they have felt an awakening in the force, not that Kylo used to know her.

Point is I'm not extrapolating much compared to saying it confirms Kylo knew her. So you show your source and say it's your interpretation;)
 
I

Imperfected

Member
My only complaint is that in the quest to make FN more sympathetic, they may have made the Stormtroopers as a whole a little too sympathetic. To the point I'm now thinking: "Why have I never heard the Rebel commanders talking about how they desperately need to rescue the kidnapped kids who are being brainwashed to become Stormtroopers? Are they such utter assholes that they don't even consider that a priority?"
 
C

CreepingFear

Member
LookAtMeGo said:
Doesnt the "flashback" jump around in time? Isnt the part with the snowy forest foresight of being on Starkiller base?
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True. It's past and future. Obviously, it isn't all Rey's past and future as we got a quick flashback to ESB with the hall way Luke went down before Vader jumped out like Jason Voorhees.
 
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Ether_Snake

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BreezyLimbo said:
Yeah...to somehow get 'Rey was mindwiped, kidnapped by Kylo, dumped on Jakku' from a vision is uh...
Click to expand...

A vision of which the main scene is set a few years earlier and doesn't actually even involve Rey, according to Pablo Hidalgo. That leaves absolutely nothing left to back any claim that she has a relation to Kylo or Luke, and instead leads us to her just being what the movie says she is.

I always thought it was weird that she would be waiting for her family without being able to remember who they are and the movie never bringing that up.

Instead it makes a lot more sense that she is really waiting for her actual family that she remembers to come back. She was possibly dropped to the junk dealer for money, a slave almost, like Anakin before her. No mystery, just what the movie told us teally.

I'm buying that.
 
D

Doctoglethorpe

Member
Ether_Snake said:
I'm gonna go with the simplest idea from here on out. She was abandoned by her family on Jakku. Nothing more. Everything else is extrapolation on top of extrapolation. Right now the facts give more credence to her being exactly what the movie told us.

The only thing that makes her special is that the force awakened in her.
Click to expand...

Except the movie makes it very clear she is very very special. The way the lightsaber chooses her. The way Han and Chewie and Leia and Kylo all seem to know her and treat her accordigly. The way she looks. The way the movies imagery of her character, via setting and origin and path and fate all heavily parallels Lukes very intentionally. The fact she even has the damn vision which seems obviously to be buried memories. The movie beats us over the head with implications of her identity again and again.

So these are the options:

1) It was all intentional and she is somehow related to the Skywalkers, even if its just adoption or padawan.
2). It was all intentional but all red herrings to make us thing 1 is correct so they can pull another twist out of nowhere later.
3). All the telegraphy was a complete accident and through sheer incompetence nobody caught the obvious implications during production (or they did and said fuck it who cares).

One of those answers seems far more likely than the other two to me.
 
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