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[Wowfunhappy]

I see...
What I mean is: IF all pirates group working together cracked denuvo the success rate will increase.
Now approx 3 month from release with 2 group only. With all Scenes group, It will have an opportunity to make a Denuvo emulator (I hear some whisper at UG forum) which can instantly crack the target.

Remember SecuRom when all AAA developer use it? It cracked relatively fast.

While I do think that all the groups working together is a bit unlikely, I do suspect that, at some point, someone is going to come up with a long-term Denuvo crack that breaks the protection at a basic level, and makes future games trivial to break.

I'm not sure how long it will take for that to happen—it could be a couple of months, it could be a half-decade—but I'm confident that Denuvo isn't going to last forever. Nothing is ever perfect.

 

[VolticArchangel]

The purpose of a layered DRM like Denuvo is not just prevent piracy or other silly notions like annoying pirates. If the raw data the publishers have doesn't end up resulting in extra units sold than their previous release of an IP in the same timeframe from release (not lifetime), then it must mean that the service is incredibly affordable to the publishers that they don't even care about ROI.

Pirates don't buy games and it's a long known fact that the publishers are aware of, way before us, consumers. But the fact these anti-tamper solutions make them think twice for a purchase is both, a potential consumer at hand and good for the platform in hindsight for developers to invest (time and momey) in & take it seriously. It's a necessary evil that we have to endure until there's a new way write a game's code which prevents it entirely from reverse engineering (yet supports mods) or a new physical media that with a high storage enough and read speed.

The only thing I would be worried about is mods and that doesn't look like a problem in the future with Denuvo equipped titles like Dragon Age Inquisition, Mad Max and V having mods. Its a start, since previous releases like Lords of the Fallen did not. Online MP-heavy games like Battlefront or BF Hardline won't have them anyway. Also, V was partially cracked by pirates? Whatever that means?

Oh, and piracy doesn't mean game preservation, sorry, it doesn't even makes sense. A Denuvo title is likely released within the last 2 years and it's publisher is most likely active in development for future titles or in extreme cases not concentrating on video games as their primary source of income anymore, like Konami. It DOES NOT MEAN that V and other Konami games get delisted as soon as they move to pachinko/pachislot. Their main source of revenue has changed. The games WILL exist as long as Valve/Steam do, and generate money for Konami on each unit sold, as it rightly should.

Preservation only becomes a problem in some highly unlikely scenarios of a (public) company (publisher/developer) getting their shares/assets dissolved and their games left in limbo. Long term preservation should of course happen, but an alternative, like a govt stepping in with a digital archive long after the games are on sale, but NOT PIRACY.

 

[Durante]

Oh, and piracy doesn't mean game preservation, sorry, it doesn't even makes sense.

Actually, removal of DRM is one of the few sure ways to enable preservation.

Preservation only becomes a problem in some highly unlikely scenarios of a (public) company (publisher/developer) getting their shares/assets dissolved and their games left in limbo.

It's so unlikely that it has already happened multiple times. Sometimes a company focused on preservation such as Night Dive can step in, sometimes the rights are so entangled that it's impossible.

 

[prudislav]

Preservation only becomes a problem in some highly unlikely scenarios of a (public) company (publisher/developer) getting their shares/assets dissolved and their games left in limbo. Long term preservation should of course happen, but an alternative, like a govt stepping in with a digital archive long after the games are on sale, but NOT PIRACY.

like if you could legally play Securom titles on Win10 or tages and starforce on Vista and above ......

 

[Senhua]

snip

The preservation and mods is really the main problem.

Are you sure 5-10 years later when windows 11 & 12 mainly used by gamers, Konami still patching the Denuvo in MGS V to be compatible for?

Regarding mods : AFAIK, the mods released now only the simple ones (emulating cheat engine), I still wait multiplayer mods for JC3 as the modder still have a difficulty with Denuvo.

 

[spekkeh]

Absolutely not, no. Even more so than for "must-have" AA games, I believe that people who pirate indie games would in no way generally buy them if they couldn't get them for free.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding -- Denuvo is highly effective in protecting DRM from crackers, and so far none of the games which use it have shown an appreciable uptick in sales over what you'd expect with less effective DRM.

I agree that there's a difference, but in terms of preservation that difference is immaterial. Whether you can no longer play a game because of Denuvo, or because of DRM which cannot be removed because of Denuvo doesn't change the result.

Aren't pc games selling a lot better recently?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Aren't pc games selling a lot better recently?

Because more people are playing on PC (see Steam concurrent users rising constantly).

It dosn't have anything to do with DRM solutions.

 

[Atraveller]

Actually, removal of DRM is one of the few sure ways to enable preservation.

It's so unlikely that it has already happened multiple times. Sometimes a company focused on preservation such as Night Dive can step in, sometimes the rights are so entangled that it's impossible.

Yes, some titles on GOG even use cracked executables from pirates.

 

[prudislav]

I still wait multiplayer mods for JC3 as the developer still have a difficulty with Denuvo.

iirc they have some kind of support from Avalanche , they might help them find a way around it

seems like we went way too offtopic so my ENDNOTE:
I guess I need to step down from the gaming communities and start actually playing the games ....I feel like nowadays I spend more time talking about the games than actually playing. All these bullshit gaming trends like microtransactions, fucked up ports, false marketing, DLCs,..... ,aswell as the "denuvo panic" trend are starting to be omnipresent and really annoying to me and in the end its just one of the hobbies so nothing that should annoy me that much

 

[Durante]

Aren't pc games selling a lot better recently?

Recently as in as-recent-as-Denuvo? No, not at all.

PC game sales improved with Steam becoming more commonplace, convenient, and more easily approachable in more markets. Incidentally, Steam DRM is extremely weak.

If you look at any PC games that people would consider unusually successful in terms of sales over the past 5 years (or even 10), then I don't think any of those successes were fueled by powerful DRM.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Preservation only becomes a problem in some highly unlikely scenarios of a (public) company (publisher/developer) getting their shares/assets dissolved and their games left in limbo. Long term preservation should of course happen, but an alternative, like a govt stepping in with a digital archive long after the games are on sale, but NOT PIRACY.

So unlikely

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Now it has been revealed that both Far Cry: Primal and Rise of the Tomb Raider will be making use of Denuvo's Anti-Tamper Technology, with Far Cry Primal mentioning it in the game's EULA and Rise of the Tomb Raider being briefly shown on Denuvo's own website.

http://www.overclock3d.net/articles...omb_raider_will_use_denuvo_anti-tamper_tech/1

Dissappointing. Was looking forward to Tomb Raider but I wont support intrusive DRM.

 

[Qassim]

http://www.overclock3d.net/articles...omb_raider_will_use_denuvo_anti-tamper_tech/1

Dissappointing. Was looking forward to Tomb Raider but I wont support intrusive DRM.

How is it intrusive? I'm curious.

 

[prudislav]

...... Steam DRM is extremely weak.

not completely true see TW:Attila or the Croteam titles , which has some form of steamCEG with hw-checks and some custom stuff , iirc Serious Sam 3 remained uncracked for way longer than any of the denuvo titles at this point

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

How is it intrusive? I'm curious.

CERTAIN FILES OF THE ANTI-TAMPER TECHNOLOGY MAY REMAIN EVEN AFTER THE PRODUCT IS UNINSTALLED FROM YOUR COMPUTER.

.

 

[Durante]

not completely true see TW:Attila or the Croteam titles , which has some form of steamCEG with hw-checks and some custom stuff , iirc Serious Sam 3 remained uncracked for way longer than any of the denuvo titles at this point

Well, if you add custom DRM or anti-tamper solutions to Steam DRM, then it's no longer really Steam DRM. Basic Steam DRM, as used in a vast number of high-profile successes in recent years, is weak.

 

[Qassim]

.

That doesn't really say much. Left over files don't mean left over processes and executables that continue running and doing things. I'm not saying that isn't the case, but there is a lot of talk around this stuff and I rarely see any sort of proof.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

That doesn't really say much. Left over files don't mean left over processes and executables that continue running and doing things. I'm not saying that isn't the case, but there is a lot of talk around this stuff and I rarely see any sort of proof.

It smacks of Starforce and Sony Rootkits. If I buy a game I don't want or need something installed and running on my PC that constantly checks to see if I've messed with the exe file and it certainly shouldn't leave files on my PC.

It goes against everything I believe the PC to be, an open platform with the ability to mod games to improve them.

I loved Skyrim with script extender and Sky UI, if it was Denuvo protected you wouldn't be able to do that.

Technically it doesn't apply to Tomb Raider but I refuse to support any game that uses Denuvo.

 

[prudislav]

Well, if you add custom DRM or anti-tamper solutions to Steam DRM, then it's no longer really Steam DRM. Basic Steam DRM, as used in a vast number of high-profile successes in recent years, is weak.

yeah in this case yes, basic steam DRM , is just the connection to steam client ... so nothing hard, SteamCEG layer(pretty much valve's antinamper) is a bit different beast, but still quite often used method ;-) denuvo is just pretty much new and 64bit solution , which imo is the part which does problems for crackers (iirc the 64bit debuggers are in sorry state atm)

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

That doesn't really say much. Left over files don't mean left over processes and executables that continue running and doing things. I'm not saying that isn't the case, but there is a lot of talk around this stuff and I rarely see any sort of proof.

I hope it's not some low-level hooks that embed themselves deeply into the OS ala SafeDisc or Starforce, etc. As long as it's not impacting my system when I'm not running the game in question, I don't really care. If it's going to always be resident then that's when it will bother me.

 

[prudislav]

I hope it's not some low-level hooks that embed themselves deeply into the OS ala SafeDisc or Starforce, etc. As long as it's not impacting my system when I'm not running the game in question, I don't really care. If it's going to always be resident then that's when it will bother me.

same creators as Securom ( they resurged as Denuvo after the securom rootkit scandal) which did just that ;-/

 

[Wowfunhappy]

CERTAIN FILES OF THE ANTI-TAMPER TECHNOLOGY MAY REMAIN EVEN AFTER THE PRODUCT IS UNINSTALLED FROM YOUR COMPUTER.

.

I hate to break it to you, but LOTS of Windows programs leave files on your hard drive even after the program is uninstalled from your computer.

Also, seeing as no one has ever found any such files (and a LOT of people seem to be looking for a reason to hate Denuvo), I think that there's a decent chance this is just a copy-pasted "cover my ass" line.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I refuse to support any game that uses Denuvo.

Then you'll probably have to stick exclusively to indies or buy a console because more and more high profile releases are using it.

 

[VolticArchangel]

Actually, removal of DRM is one of the few sure ways to enable preservation.

And we keep going in circles with semantics. I'm not against DRM-free software, never will be. It's the reason I love GOG more than steam and hope for a higher market penetration than it actually is today. I firmly believe that punishing the consumer is not the right way to protect your products from being stolen. It's counterproductive.

More sales and (not related, well mostly...) "Anti-piracy" is all I need (though it's never gonna happen, even with Denuvo and it's unique hardware based anti-tamper algorithms in the longrun). If there's a digital alternative like a FOSS developer coming up with a middleware that prevents reverse engineering of a game code, while inherently supporting mods OR a new physical media with high enough storage / read speeds, I'd gladly take either. Until that pipe dream materializes, services like Denuvo are the unfortunate solution.

It's so unlikely that it has already happened multiple times. Sometimes a company focused on preservation such as Night Dive can step in, sometimes the rights are so entangled that it's impossible.

Have you thought about a govt sponsored/run digital archive where preservation of all software that are not currently on sale/out of print exists, where the revenue is split between the developers/publisher and the govt takes a fee for server maintenance ? This could very well apply to a title like NOLF where Monolith/Warner Bros. and Activision share the revenue. We need new copyright laws for the sake of preservation, in this case, if both, Warner & Acti, disagree to put NOLF up for preservation the govt offers an ultimatum that they are forced to, or the govt shares the revenue only with the developer.

like if you could legally play Securom titles on Win10 or tages and starforce on Vista and above ......

While Denuvo does have files that are not removed upon an uninstall, is it that deeply rooted (or does harm to the machine) with the system files like the ones which made MSFT to go nope on SecuROM on their future OS' ? Don't think so.

The preservation and mods is really the main problem.

Are you sure 5-10 years later when windows 11 & 12 mainly used by gamers, Konami still patching the Denuvo in MGS V to be compatible for?

Regarding mods : AFAIK, the mods released now only the simple ones (emulating cheat engine), I still wait multiplayer mods for JC3 as the modder still have a difficulty with Denuvo.

Windows, starting with 10, is going to evolve like OSX and it's versions. I doubt we'll see a "Windows 11" in the traditional sense. Extremely high chance of backcompat, with new features/graphics API's etc.

As for mods, Denuvo is still in its infancy. Mods for V are not baby steps or simple btw. But give it some time and I'm sure we'll have the old way of modding back.

So unlikely

Take NOLF and SWAT4 out of that list for a moment and all other titles have a publisher that's active and own the respective IP.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Curious, are there any examples of games that can no longer be played by anyone because no one every cracked its DRM/protection?

Windows, starting with 10, is going to evolve like OSX and it's versions. I doubt we'll see a "Windows 11" in the traditional sense. Extremely high chance of backcompat, with new features/graphics API's etc.

Not to completely invalidate your point, but newer versions of OS X break backwards compatibility all the time. It's actually—annoyingly—much worse than Windows, because unlike Microsoft, Apple doesn't give a crap.

While Denuvo does have files that are not removed upon an uninstall, is it that deeply rooted (or does harm to the machine) with the system files like the ones which made MSFT to go nope on SecuROM on their future OS' ? Don't think so.

Until someone provides a legitimate source of this happening, this really isn't a valid argument. Copy-pasted EULA's don't really mean anything.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I bought this game as a present for a friend, but I misremembered how good is computer is slightly. His graphics card is within the stated system requirements, except that he has a configuration with only 1GB of VRAM as opposed to the stated 2GB. He's not too worried, but I am, for him :/

What are the chances he'll be okay if he, say, drops the resolution to 720p? (Admittedly, he's not sure he wants to do that anyway, but still.) I wonder if Nixxes will include the game's last-gen assets as a low-settings option...

 

[Self_Destructive]

Where was that video where one of the devs/community managers was talking about anisotropic filtering as 'new'?

Can someone link me.

 

[Free Roaming Chicken]

Where was that video where one of the devs/community managers was talking about anisotropic filtering as 'new'?

Can someone link me.

It's this video talking with the RotTR brand director Rich Briggs. Can't remember exact spot but he mentions it in the first segment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcXPOFDcNtA&feature=youtu.be

edited to add: he mentions about new "AF" at 7:20

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Where was that video where one of the devs/community managers was talking about anisotropic filtering as 'new'?

Can someone link me.

Around 7:25 in the above video

He's talking about new additions to the PC but he specifically states that anisotropic filtering is "a new thing"

 

[Self_Destructive]

That's it. Thanks a lot guys.

 

[JaseC]

Have you thought about a govt sponsored/run digital archive where preservation of all software that are not currently on sale/out of print exists, where the revenue is split between the developers/publisher and the govt takes a fee for server maintenance ? This could very well apply to a title like NOLF where Monolith/Warner Bros. and Activision share the revenue. We need new copyright laws for the sake of preservation, in this case, if both, Warner & Acti, disagree to put NOLF up for preservation the govt offers an ultimatum that they are forced to, or the govt shares the revenue only with the developer.

The problem with NOLF isn't so much a lack of cooperation as it is a lack of proof. Sadly, I don't see the games being removed from limbo until a company challenges WB's seemingly baseless assertion that it has the strongest claim to them. But that means letting WB follow through on the threat of legal action, a process which would be neither quick nor cheap.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Then you'll probably have to stick exclusively to indies or buy a console because more and more high profile releases are using it.

Yup, I know.

 

[SubiyaCryolite]

I hate DRM but at this point in time I've come to accept it as an annoying part of life. I've already dealt with DRM many times before, even without noticing (Inquisition, Phantom Pain). Truthfully Im more concerned about when Ill be able to pre-load the damn thing.

 

[Poster#1]

can you get it on Windows store now?

 

[JaseC]

Pre-load is up on Steam. 18.9GB install/17.3GB download.

 

[bbd23]

beat^

 

[Kezen]

Pre-load is up on Steam. 18.9GB install/17.3GB download.

Awesome.

 

[10k]

You'd think this would be on the windows store right now since it's coming out in 3 days. Would be nice to preorder Gears and ReCore and Halo Wars 2 for PC.

 

[JaseC]

You'd think this would be on the windows store right now since it's coming out in 3 days. Would be nice to preorder Gears and ReCore and Halo Wars 2 for PC.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say the WinStore doesn't yet support pre-orders/pre-loads, which wouldn't be surprising since the X1 initially didn't, either.

 

[Kezen]

I'm going to hazard a guess and say the WinStore doesn't yet support pre-orders/pre-loads, which wouldn't be surprising since the X1 initially didn't, either.

I mean how behind the times can Microsoft be ?

If they want to move the needle they will need to do much better than this.

 

[10k]

I'm going to hazard a guess and say the WinStore doesn't yet support pre-orders/pre-loads, which wouldn't be surprising since the X1 initially didn't, either.

I just want it for the gamerscore lol. I'd love if all PC games got windows 10 ports

 

[Dictator93]

You'd think this would be on the windows store right now since it's coming out in 3 days. Would be nice to preorder Gears and ReCore and Halo Wars 2 for PC.

You really think MS would do that, just announce support for the PC platform and then not support it?

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Yeah, I'm also hoping to buy this on the Window Store, even if just to stop Steam from having a monopoly where possible. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll have to give up preloading in order to do so

 

[MUnited83]

The purpose of a layered DRM like Denuvo is not just prevent piracy or other silly notions like annoying pirates. If the raw data the publishers have doesn't end up resulting in extra units sold than their previous release of an IP in the same timeframe from release (not lifetime), then it must mean that the service is incredibly affordable to the publishers that they don't even care about ROI.

Pirates don't buy games and it's a long known fact that the publishers are aware of, way before us, consumers. But the fact these anti-tamper solutions make them think twice for a purchase is both, a potential consumer at hand and good for the platform in hindsight for developers to invest (time and momey) in & take it seriously. It's a necessary evil that we have to endure until there's a new way write a game's code which prevents it entirely from reverse engineering (yet supports mods) or a new physical media that with a high storage enough and read speed.

The only thing I would be worried about is mods and that doesn't look like a problem in the future with Denuvo equipped titles like Dragon Age Inquisition, Mad Max and V having mods. Its a start, since previous releases like Lords of the Fallen did not. Online MP-heavy games like Battlefront or BF Hardline won't have them anyway. Also, V was partially cracked by pirates? Whatever that means?

Oh, and piracy doesn't mean game preservation, sorry, it doesn't even makes sense. A Denuvo title is likely released within the last 2 years and it's publisher is most likely active in development for future titles or in extreme cases not concentrating on video games as their primary source of income anymore, like Konami. It DOES NOT MEAN that V and other Konami games get delisted as soon as they move to pachinko/pachislot. Their main source of revenue has changed. The games WILL exist as long as Valve/Steam do, and generate money for Konami on each unit sold, as it rightly should.

Preservation only becomes a problem in some highly unlikely scenarios of a (public) company (publisher/developer) getting their shares/assets dissolved and their games left in limbo. Long term preservation should of course happen, but an alternative, like a govt stepping in with a digital archive long after the games are on sale, but NOT PIRACY.

Oh yes, piracy as a method of preservation never existed! I mean, it's not like GOG is selling old games bundled with cracks to be able to work or anything!

 

[MaxiLive]

Pre-load is up on Steam. 18.9GB install/17.3GB download.

Weeee Thanks for the heads up JaseC!

I shall kick this off tonight, it always takes forever to unpack though so it might be quicker for me to just download it once its out.

I don't suppose anyone knows what time this is unlocking on Friday GMT? 6PM? 12AM?

 

[Akronis]

I mean how behind the times can Microsoft be ?

If they want to move the needle they will need to do much better than this.

Some big name titles will be released through the WinStore, but I'd imagine it'll fall away into obscurity. Microsoft has given us no confidence in the past with any of their PC developments lol

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Hope GMG releases their codes soon!

 

[Dave_6]

Pre-load is up on Steam. 18.9GB install/17.3GB download.

Nice. Hopefully GMG won't wait till the last minute to send me my code.

 

[JaseC]

Weeee Thanks for the heads up JaseC!

I shall kick this off tonight, it always takes forever to unpack though so it might be quicker for me to just download it once its out.

I don't suppose anyone knows what time this is unlocking on Friday GMT? 6PM? 12AM?

An early unlock for Asia is looking unlikely, again. :sadcloud:

 

[Brandon F]

Didn't realize you get TR2013 as a pre-order bonus on Steam. I already have owned and played the prequel on both 360 and PS4, but what the hell, I'm curious to see how Lara looks on my brand new PC setup a few days ahead of Rise. Pre-bought.