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Democratic Primary Debate V

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- His fans are annoying, condescending and paranoid, and he's done nothing to stop them. Saying "cut it out guys!!" is nothing. He's manage to convince a bunch of people that not only is Hillary right wing, but she's corrupt, disgusting and unpopular. It's so skewed and perverted from reality, it just reminds me of the Tea Party, and it's really disappointing that it's come to this. There's no reason at all his fans need to harp on every tiny thing Hillary does. Stuff like Hillary saying she won a primary, when she won a primary, and pretending that's a gross offense was stupid. Jumping on the right wing band wagon with the email nonsense is stupid. Their "my way or the high way" and "well maybe we just need 8 years of the GOP to learn!" stuff is self destructive, naive and childish and completely counter to everything they believe in, but they don't realize it.
“I don’t want anybody, anybody, who is engaged in sexism to support me,” Sanders told NBC News’ Kate Snow in New Hampshire on Sunday. “I don’t want that support,” he insisted, calling that type of behavior from some supporters “unacceptable.”

In another Sunday interview on CNN’s “State of the Union,” Sanders called the behavior of so-called Bernie Bros “disgusting,” saying his campaign is working to address the issue on online harassment.

“Look, we don’t want that crap. … We will do everything we can and I think we have tried. Look, anybody who is supporting me that is doing the sexist things is—we don’t want them. I don’t want them. That is not what this campaign is about”:
http://www.salon.com/2016/02/08/we_...ders_repudiates_sexist_bernie_bro_supporters/

What else can he do other than publicly call them out? He's made it clear he does not want his supporters to engage in nasty online activity.

Also I don't believe he has attacked Hillary Clinton nearly as much as you are suggesting. He raises questions and has criticisms. Valid ones, in my opinion.
 
ITT people don't trust Hillary.

That's what it really boils down to.

Bernie outraised her yet apparently the bigger sum of money doesn't count.

It's not the banks either since Obama had a super PAC too.

So people just don't trust Hillary and will go to any lengths to try not to trust her.
 

nynt9

Member
I don't know if I should be surprised or not to see people fail to understand basic conflict of interest concepts. The best way to avoid a conflict of interest is to just refuse compensation from organizations who have an interest in changing your opinion about them. Even video game journalists know this. God forbid we hold the potential next president of this country up to the standard of a video game journalist.

Sure, just call anyone who thinks more transparency and fairness is needed in politics "BernieBros", anything to not acknowledge that there are problems with conflict. You don't even have to change your opinion about something to have a conflict of interest! That's not how it works! The possibility for you to change your opinion based on favors/money existing is enough to discredit you. Also, studies show that these types of opinion changes are subtle and the individual themselves might not realize. That's why the best thing to do is refuse compensation from people you're politically or financially entangled with.
 

otake

Doesn't know that "You" is used in both the singular and plural
This speaking fee thing has legs...

honestly, it's foolish to think you can govern without key people in wall street supporting you. Wall Street and the US Government are inseparable.
World is governed by money, why care about her speaking fees. It implies nothing we don't already know about all politicians. Berny and all the republicans have the same relationship to wall street.
 

ApharmdX

Banned
enters thread, page 42, sees speaking fees, dies of non-importance

[sarcasm] keep up the good fight Berniebros! [/sarcasm]

Nice oversimplification.

- His fans are annoying, condescending and paranoid, and he's done nothing to stop them. Saying "cut it out guys!!" is nothing. He's manage to convince a bunch of people that not only is Hillary right wing, but she's corrupt, disgusting and unpopular. It's so skewed and perverted from reality, it just reminds me of the Tea Party, and it's really disappointing that it's come to this. There's no reason at all his fans need to harp on every tiny thing Hillary does. Stuff like Hillary saying she won a primary, when she won a primary, and pretending that's a gross offense was stupid. Jumping on the right wing band wagon with the email nonsense is stupid. Their "my way or the high way" and "well maybe we just need 8 years of the GOP to learn!" stuff is self destructive, naive and childish and completely counter to everything they believe in, but they don't realize it.

There are definitely some "Berniebros" out there; I see them on my FB feed, on Reddit, and here. But let's not pretend that Hillary supporters aren't annoying in their own way. Everything with Hillary is "not a big deal". No, there are some legitimate issues with Clinton as a presidential candidate, with her political history and previous campaigns, with her donors, with her attempts to silence rape victims, with her conducting State Department business on a personal email server, etc. etc. etc.

I think Hillary's pragmatic approach is attractive to certain groups of voters, especially blacks and Latinos, who have the most to lose under a Republican president. Outside of that, I have a hard time understand her draw as a presidential candidate. If it weren't for how dangerous Republicans are on social issues, I would pass on voting for her in the general election. Even you say that you don't love Hillary as a candidate, and I hear this a lot. It's a little bit frightening as a liberal looking towards the general election. Demographics favor her over any GOP candidate but are people going to turn out to vote Hillary in?
 

Adaren

Member
No one ever responded to my earlier post:

Going off this data, big banks are < 10% of Hillary's speaking fees.

Regardless of whether it's $1.8M or $3M (as the above poster claimed), it's certainly nowhere close to the majority.

[honest question] What percentage of Hillary's campaign fund / speaking fees comes from big banks? That seems a lot more relevant than the flat numbers. [/honest question]
 
ITT people don't trust Hillary.

That's what it really boils down to.

Bernie outraised her yet apparently the bigger sum of money doesn't count.

It's not the banks either since Obama had a super PAC too.

So people just don't trust Hillary and will go to any lengths to try not to trust her.

She's a woman.
 

JABEE

Member
She's a woman.

Super PACs.

Supporter of repealing glass-steagall.

Did not believe in Gay rights until it was politically convenient.

The ultimate shapeshifter Candidate. She's a Mitt Romney.

Bernie Sanders is going to be the first Jewish candidate to win a major primary. I think that's pretty monumental in this "Christian nation." I'm glad history is being made.
 

nynt9

Member
She's a woman.

Yes, of course. It's utterly inconceivable for people to have legitimate grievances of her. 100% of everyone who are claiming to be unhappy with some of her actions are clearly closet sexists and they have no argument whatsoever because she is perfect and is utterly infallible. That must be it. How wrong was I!
 

AlphaDump

Gold Member
Question...

From OpenSecrets, https://www.opensecrets.org/resources/dollarocracy/04.php

Under federal law, all contributions of more than $200 to federal candidates, PACs, or parties must be itemized and disclosed to the Federal Election Commission. Donors must report their name, address, employer and occupation, and these records are publicly available from the FEC and several other websites.

In addition,

Under federal law, all contributions over $200 must be itemized and the donor's occupation and employer must be requested and disclosed, if provided. The Center uses that employer/occupation information to identify the donor's economic interest. We do this in two ways:

First, we apply a code to the contribution, identifying the industry. Totals for industries (and larger economic sectors) can be seen in each candidate and race profile, and in the Industry Profile section of the OpenSecrets website.

Second, we standardize the name of the donor's employer. If enough contributions came in from people connected with that same employer, the organization's name winds up on the Top Contributor list.

Of course, it is impossible to know either the economic interest that made each individual contribution possible or the motivation for each individual giver. However, the patterns of contributions provide critical information for voters, researchers and others. That is why Congress mandated that candidates and political parties request employer information from contributors and publicly report it when the contributor provides it.

In some cases, a cluster of contributions from the same organization may indicate a concerted effort by that organization to "bundle" contributions to the candidate. In other cases—both with private companies and with government agencies, non-profits and educational institutions—the reason for the contributions may be completely unrelated to the organization.

So If I donate under the $200 threshold, I don't need to provide that information? If I donate more than that, I have to provide my employer and occupation?
 
Super PACs.

Supporter of repealing glass-steagall.

Did not believe in Gay rights until it was politically convenient.

The ultimate shapeshifter Candidate. She's a Mitt Romney.

Bernie Sanders is going to be the first Jewish candidate to win a major primary. I think that's pretty monumental in this "Christian nation." I'm glad history is being made.
See, this is what scares me. Here is a (presumed) liberal Democrat who is now comparing one of the biggest voices in our party to Mitt Romney. Convinced she's going to lose the primary, probably going to be shocked if/when she doesn't, no telling whether this Bernie supporter will come out to vote on election day in November.

Hopefully an Obama "endorsement" at the convention brings most of these people back into the fold, but there is no guarantee considering how vitriolic things have become. And I really don't know who is to blame. I don't think it's candidate Sanders' fault, nor do I know if he can do anything about it at this point. He'd better have a damn good concession speech if/when the time comes.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
No one ever responded to my earlier post:



[honest question] What percentage of Hillary's campaign fund / speaking fees comes from big banks? That seems a lot more relevant than the flat numbers. [/honest question]

I don't see how it matters;

The "donations from Big Banks" people keep talking about are donations from "Big Bank" employees.

Edit: And employees are more then what they work for.

I will however say that Banks have used a loop hole to help fund raise indirectly through "events". Basically people make a donation to her campaign within the limits and show up to a dinner or something. I don't see it being nearly enough to effect her decision making.
 

nynt9

Member
See, this is what scares me. Here is a (presumed) liberal Democrat who is now comparing one of the biggest voices in our party to Mitt Romney. Convinced she's going to lose the primary, probably going to be shocked when she doesn't, no telling whether this Bernie supporter will come out to vote on election day in November.

Hopefully an Obama "endorsement" at the convention brings most of these people back into the fold, but there is no guarantee considering how vitriolic things have become.

I can't speak for that person, but I will vote for Hillary if she gets the nom. Still better than the republican crazies. That doesn't mean I won't expect her to account for her failings. In the end I believe politics in this country is based on choosing the candidate you dislike the least. For me that's Bernie currently, but if he's out (as he is most likely to be) Hillary is next on the list.
 

JABEE

Member
See, this is what scares me. Here is a (presumed) liberal Democrat who is now comparing one of the biggest voices in our party to Mitt Romney. Convinced she's going to lose the primary, probably going to be shocked when she doesn't, no telling whether this Bernie supporter will come out to vote on election day in November.

Hopefully an Obama "endorsement" at the convention brings these people back into the fold, but there is no guarantee considering how vitriolic things have become.

I actually think Bernie winning is a long-shot. He most likely won't win the nomination, but I can hope. I want the democratic party to actually be a democratic party. The democrats have shifted more to the right since Bill Clinton. It hasn't changed since.

The democratic party needs to support more authentically liberal candidates.
 
I actually think Bernie winning is a long-shot. He most likely won't win the nomination, but I can hope. I want the democratic party to actually be a democratic party. The democrats have shifted more to the right since Bill Clinton. It hasn't changed since.

The democratic party needs to support more authentically liberal candidates.

Agreed, and I think the best thing about the Sanders campaign is that he's pulling the party and their nominee much further to the left than they would be without him running and doing so well.

But the key is that we still go on to win the presidency one way or another.
 
They what? Both Hillary and Obama are way further left than Bill ever was...

Who was it who implmented Don't Ask Don't Tell, DOMA and welfare reform? Bill Clinton.
 
Super PACs.

Supporter of repealing glass-steagall.

Did not believe in Gay rights until it was politically convenient.

The ultimate shapeshifter Candidate. She's a Mitt Romney.

Bernie Sanders is going to be the first Jewish candidate to win a major primary. I think that's pretty monumental in this "Christian nation." I'm glad history is being made.

About Gay Marriage: Both Obama and Clinton were on the same boat, Obama was more Conservative initially than Clinton.

Bernie too, did not say he was pro Gay marriage initialy. He evolved too, as conveniently as Obama

Obama evolved because the Supreme Court acted. If the Supreme Court never acted, Obama would have not evolved

so, it is a bit of falsehood to paint Clinton alone about changing her position on the matter when they all changed their positions when the Supreme Court ruled in favor.
 

phanphare

Banned
Agreed, and I think the best thing about the Sanders campaign is that he's pulling the party and their nominee much further to the left than they would be without him running and doing so well.

But the key is that we still go on to win the presidency one way or another.

he's also showing the inevitability of his platform with how he's polling with young people
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Super PACs.

Supporter of repealing glass-steagall.

Did not believe in Gay rights until it was politically convenient.

The ultimate shapeshifter Candidate. She's a Mitt Romney.

Bernie Sanders is going to be the first Jewish candidate to win a major primary. I think that's pretty monumental in this "Christian nation." I'm glad history is being made.

You realize she's said she'd only appoint justices that would get rid of Citizens United right? Back when the campaigns started.
 
Agreed, and I think the best thing about the Sanders campaign is that he's pulling the party and their nominee much further to the left than they would be without him running and doing so well.

But the key is that we still go on to win the presidency one way or another.

I agree with this. Bernie is serving a very important purpose right now by keeping all these social issues in the discussion.

Maybe he's not the best candidate and likely won't win, but he's making it so it's okay to discuss things like healthcare and education reform without it being political suicide.
 
I agree with this. Bernie is serving a very important purpose right now by keeping all these social issues in the discussion.

Maybe he's not the best candidate and likely won't win, but he's making it so it's okay to discuss things like healthcare and education reform without it being political suicide.

and especially drug reform.
 
I agree with this. Bernie is serving a very important purpose right now by keeping all these social issues in the discussion.

Maybe he's not the best candidate and likely won't win, but he's making it so it's okay to discuss things like healthcare and education reform without it being political suicide.

But that's only because this is the Democratic Primary.

Let's see how well that fares in the general.

It would be a much better time if the Democrats ran the house and the senate. But they don't.

So this is literally do or die for the Democrats, otherwise they get shut out at the federal level.

Some Sanders people are fine with losing though. Whatever, right?

Here's a dirty secret: Old Hillary people are just as fine if a moderate Republican gets into office. Better the devil you know than the Red Commie from the 60s trying to destroy America.

It's just that the support behind Sanders is traditionally the least likely to turnout. That's why he's considered unelectable.

If he waited 8 more years until enough of the boomers died out I would have no doubt he would sweep Clinton. But time isn't on his side this fight.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Yet, she still takes SuperPAC money to defeat a candidate that does not exploit this ruling.

So you want her to tie her hand around her back on principle? They have the same damn stance on getting rid of it, one of them is just willing to use it to get the job done.
 

JABEE

Member
So you want her to tie her hand around her back on principle? They have the same damn stance on getting rid of it, one of them is just willing to use it to get the job done.

The reason people oppose this is due to the influence that unlimited corporate money has over the process.

By accepting the money, while disagreeing with the process, you are doing so with the understanding that it will have a dangerous influence over your future decisions as an elected official.

I'm not sure how you can reconcile those two things.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
But that's only because this is the Democratic Primary.

Let's see how well that fares in the general.

It would be a much better time if the Democrats ran the house and the senate. But they don't.

So this is literally do or die for the Democrats, otherwise they get shut out at the federal level.

Some Sanders people are fine with losing though. Whatever, right?

Here's a dirty secret: Old Hillary people are just as fine if a moderate Republican gets into office. Better the devil you know than the Red Commie from the 60s trying to destroy America.

It's just that the support behind Sanders is traditionally the least likely to turnout. That's why he's considered unelectable.

If he waited 8 more years until enough of the boomers died out I would have no doubt he would sweep Clinton. But time isn't on his side this fight.

He doesn't just have an age issue, he has a huge race one. His support base is predominantly white. Hillary is killing him in all age demos when it comes to the african-american base. One of the biggest reasons Obama beat her in 08 is because he was able to eat into that support and turn it around. Four years from now he'd still have the same issue.

The reason people oppose this is due to the influence that unlimited corporate money has over the process.

By accepting the money, while disagreeing with the process, you are doing so with the understanding that it will have a dangerous influence over your future decisions as an elected official.

I'm not sure how you can reconcile those two things.

You make it sound like it's the one ring.
 
The reason people oppose this is due to the influence that unlimited corporate money has over the process.

By accepting the money, while disagreeing with the process, you are doing so with the understanding that it will have a dangerous influence over your future decisions as an elected official.

I'm not sure how you can reconcile those two things.

It's very simple.

Who would you think would match up better against the Republican nominee and how important is it that the Republicans do not take control of the White House at any cost?
 
Yet, she still takes SuperPAC money to defeat a candidate that does not exploit this ruling.
When Republicans are raising more money than has ever been spent in an American election to meet their goal of slashing benefits, repealing the Affordable Care Act, dismantling the Iranian nuclear deal, waging war in Iraq, preventing common sense banking reform, denying global warming exists, and creating a regressive tax policy...

Why wouldn't you want to make some friends with money? The Friends of Bill are saving the country.

His money might look clean now but Bernie Sanders is going to run out of $10 donations. If he wins the DNC nomination, what is he going to do? Tell every progressive rich person to fuck off? The elite can be liberal, too.

Did you know Jamie Dimon, CEO of the largest bank in the United States, is a Democrat?

Pro-growth Democrats are not against social progress. They're just also pro-economy. The reality is, Hillary Clinton has spoken to banks, silicon valley startups, unions, manufacturers, you name it, and those people have paid her for her speeches because she has had a global vision for decades. She's against TPP in its current form (primarily because of the leverage corporations have against foreign governments; totally fucking unprecedented) but she did the dirty work to get it started because she believes in free trade. She believes in clean energy alternatives. She believes in banking reform that REDUCES risk and makes investors feel safe again.

Yeah, those people have money. But the truth is, the people who are integral cogs in our grand American machine always do.
 

benjipwns

Banned
It's very simple.

Who would you think would match up better against the Republican nominee and how important is it that the Republicans do not take control of the White House at any cost?
The cool thing is that your vote won't change the outcome of the election, so you can vote however you want to and feel good about it if you want.
 
The cool thing is that your vote won't change the outcome of the election, so you can vote however you want to and feel good about it if you want.
There is a multiplicative and herd effect in talking about politics. He's not telling you about his (or her) vote, he's trying to convince you to vote his way.

Because he loves you.
 

loki 16

Member
It's so disheartening to see that people are actually trying to make it seem like money in politics is not an issue. It's the biggest issue. If any presidential candidate wants to improve the country they need to make money in politics their most important issue. So far there's only one candidate that is actually serious about taking money out of politics and that is Bernie Sanders.
 

nynt9

Member
It's very simple.

Who would you think would match up better against the Republican nominee and how important is it that the Republicans do not take control of the White House at any cost?

Wasn't Bernie polling better against Trump than Hillary? Did that change?
 

JABEE

Member
There is a multiplicative and herd effect in talking about politics. He's not telling you about his (or her) vote, he's trying to convince you to vote his way.

Because he loves you.

No, I'm not. Vote for whoever you want to. I was just arguing that point.

People can vote for Hillary if they want. It's better than voting for Trump, Rubio, or Cruz.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
It's so disheartening to see that people are actually trying to make it seem like money in politics is not an issue. It's the biggest issue. If any presidential candidate wants to improve the country they need to make money in politics their most important issue. So far there's only one candidate that is actually serious about taking money out of politics and that is Bernie Sanders.

You do realize that the only ones who can do anything about that issue are the Supreme Court justices right? Bernie can't do shit about it but appoint justices, probably the same ones Hillary would, and hope someone sues once the court leans enough to the left. Anyone telling you they can do more than that is lying.
 
.


Maybe. But then Bloomberg runs and then what?

How close is Bloomberg to Hilary and Sanders political?




But that's only because this is the Democratic Primary.

Let's see how well that fares in the general.

It would be a much better time if the Democrats ran the house and the senate. But they don't.

So this is literally do or die for the Democrats, otherwise they get shut out at the federal level.

Some Sanders people are fine with losing though. Whatever, right?

Here's a dirty secret: Old Hillary people are just as fine if a moderate Republican gets into office. Better the devil you know than the Red Commie from the 60s trying to destroy America.

It's just that the support behind Sanders is traditionally the least likely to turnout. That's why he's considered unelectable.

If he waited 8 more years until enough of the boomers died out I would have no doubt he would sweep Clinton. But time isn't on his side this fight.



Why couldn't it be that Bernie won the primary, and in facing the republican candidate, collectively made America shit itself out of fear, making people who otherwise wouldn't, vote.
In my country there is a high voter turnout, and the more extreme the opposition seems to be (racist, hostile, angry, attack ads) the bigger the polar opposite response. When you latch out you can create a snowball effect that instigates a heightened response from the other side.
IMO low voter turnout is a sign of apathy, but apathy disappears if you are truly afraid and scared, and I think the republicans candidate are quite scary, and I think you're already seeing the rest of the worlds reactions to the republicans. - The UK parliament voting to ban Trump, the Mexican ex-president basically saying that Mexico won't and cannot pay for such a wall.
IMO it's important to know your history, to not repeat it, but you can also be a victim. Obama got a lot done without the supreme court. I wouldn't hold off that Bernie also couldn't. But the political insuregency arround him needs to persist past his election, because if the movement- constant intervention and political activism at a grand level does not persist then it won't work.

For too long a lot of western activism has revolved around a core issue, that politicians ride out. An overwhelming amount of people in America opposed the Iraq war and there was grand protests before the war had even begun. A grand contrast to American previous wars, however, the protests failed to do anything and everything piped down relatively quickly as the wars rolled on for 1,5 decades.
In my mind Bernies camp needs to set the movement up to try and have people engaged post the election no matter what happens. If you're going to get Gerrymandering either way, and political corruption either way, as corporations are pulling on both parties, it really has to be undermined from another angle.
I don't think seeking a political revolution in the skewed distribution of power that has now ensured is the same as saying; "to hell with the outcome!". I still attest, that like Bernie himself, a lot of who say "Bernie, or I'll vote for trump" will vote for Hilary if it comes down to Hilary or Trump. I think its a angry knee jerk reaction and something most people say because they want others to think "ohh ohh, better vote for bernie, or his supporters will vote for Hilary".
It doesn't make sense. It's just that as long as Bernie still has a small chance, and since his political activism is strongest on the internet you have people arguing like this.
It's not a good look, but many people in all sorts of situations make ultimatums like this- with video games, pop culture or whatever.
 

benjipwns

Banned
There is a multiplicative and herd effect in talking about politics. He's not telling you about his (or her) vote, he's trying to convince you to vote his way.

Because he loves you.
He can't convince me to commit violence against my fellow man by proxy. I am insufferable.
 

samn

Member
ITT people don't trust Hillary.

That's what it really boils down to.

Bernie outraised her yet apparently the bigger sum of money doesn't count.

It's not the banks either since Obama had a super PAC too.

So people just don't trust Hillary and will go to any lengths to try not to trust her.

Bernie's donations are almost entirely from individuals aren't they? the point is he's not making use of SuperPACs to pick up cash from big business?

The fact is she has a bad record on honesty. She's a natural born liar. We have literally no reason to trust anything she says.

(also I dislike Obama)
 
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